Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Contenders Eugene V. Debs 20240712

His return to his hometown of terre haute, indiana following his release from prison by president harding after a federal conviction stemming from the war protests. And tonight were in terre haute in the debs home and museum. Let me introduce you to our guests. Earnest freebuerg. Why do we care about him . Debs was one of the most important labor leaders at a crucial time of conflict between labor and capital. But more importantly, he was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time when it was a viable growing and important part of the american political call chu v culture. Does he have a Lasting Legacy . Like many third party candidates, they managed to move the conversation in very important directions that have affected the development of american democracy. So in that car, he is of his time but also at a long impact on us as well. And well have time to delve into some of the elections more deeply later on, but of the fire bids he made for the white house, any particularly significant . Two for very different reasons. The 1912 bid represents the High Water Mark of socialism where he got about 6 of the vote. Quite different election is 1920 where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got 1 million skroet votes also. And so this is on our look at people who made an attempt at the white house and failed but had an effect on preliminary and American History. Were live tonight from the debs house of museum here in terre haute, indiana, on the campus of indiana state university. And eugene v. Debs lived in this house with his wife kate, and she lived here for years after she died. Well show you more of house as we continue here. The top floor of this house is an interesting mural. And the mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the years of debs could you about e and wieell show you aspects of that art work poworkartwork. Our second guest is joining us from the second floor which is now a museum room with a lot of artifacts. Lisa phillips, a specialist in labor history. Thanks so much for being with us. Your thoughts on debs significance. And i think that his significant ca significance with the American Railway union and the socialist party as well. And he has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed during the progressive year that were a result of his activism, some of which we still enjoy and he can tell us a lot about his time period through his running for president and through all his Labor Union Activities as well. And Lisa Phillips will be showing us some of the artifacts. Tell me about the work of the Debs Foundation and why you are involved in it. Did tthe Debs Foundation see keeps debs legacy alive and it seeks to promote not only the museum but the policies that debs promoted which had is stoes stoes social justice and rights of workers. So as we turn to your expertise, can you tell me a little bit about how this house is financed and functions, who pays for it and whose care it is under . It is paid for by the Debs Foundation and it is cared if by dr. K45ir dr. Charles containing aking ann who are here in terre haute and run tours on a daily basis. And so well open up the phone lines and involve you. They are interested to hear your comments or questions about debs apartments t and the period in American History that he represents. Let me ask you about what made Hurricane Irma him a success. Many remember him as a dynamic speaker. This is an era of wonderful stump speakers who could fill two are and three others with a speech. And denies was the best in that genre. And in fact so good that he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience and that is how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases. And he was just a very charismatic and h i think he began as a victorian speaker but then he developed a sort of modern impromptu stirl that made a tremendous impact on his audience. And over your shoulders is debs library. And my understanding is that debs dropped out of school at age 4 and i age 14 and im curious how he educated himself. He was very self taught. He worked very hard at that. He began as working in the railroad union, was very interested in the literature there, workeds for as a grocery clerk, really had to really to getting education on his own. And how did terre haute shape eugene debs . Mostly through his upbringing when he was a young man. And he always harkened back to the tara hoerre haute of his yod invoked it in terms of theships developed in old terre haute. He said even courybody could as to doing something in your good, but everybody had a chance to inspire to improve their lives and that is what he held in the most regard in terms of his up bringing. And you see that he was interested in politics from what it looked like an early age. He made bid for clerk and also made a successful bid for the Indiana Legislature on the democratic ticket. His early roots then were in two party system. You can talk about that . I can say a little bit which is to say that he ran on Democratic Party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether groups, whether they be Business Owners, workers. He believed in the party system in that regard. It wasnt until later in the 1880s, 1890s that he felt like the party system through the democrats and republicans werent working for the best interests of all the time combined. When he sought the white house, what was his intention . Did he ever really think that he could win . He said clearly that he had no intention of ever winning. Lincoln stefans interviewed him in 1908 and said what would it like for you to be president. He said if the party gets close to winning, id be the last person whod want the job or that they would put into the job. He thought of himself more as an evangelist for the cause. He believed in democracy, but i think he was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers, to develop class consciousness, to sort of deliver his message very powerfully every four years. Give us a snapshot of the america that he was dissatisfied with. Well, it was enormous concentration of capital. That was the big struggle at the time. You know, many people were worried about the labor problem. Many workers felt in the face of this rapid industrialization that their skills were less valuable, that their wages were being pitted in the international and National Market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment. And there was an enormous sense that labor was deeply unhappy. And for debs, debs turned it around and said the problem is not labor, the problem is capital. That the real problem here is not that workers are unhappy and going on strike. The problem the root problem is that these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. Socialism was of course on the rise in europe. How was what the socialists and debs were trying to do here different from what was happening there . Well. It was similar at first. They considered themselves internationalists, that socialism needed to be a worldwide movement, and they felt it would be. There were distinctive challenges in america in order to convince workers to do that. There was a stronger sense of a working class in europe on which to draw for socialists organizing there. One of the struggles for debs throughout his career was to try to convince workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans, not on the basis of their religious affiliation, but to think of themselves as members of a working class. And how successful was what he and his fellow thinkers in convincing the public . I mean, at the height of its popularity, how much ground did they make . It depends on how you measure that. I think if you measure it by debs success, his High Water Mark was 1912. He got 6 of the vote. About a million votes. Never any Electoral College votes, though, right . No. But there was a broader socialists were much more successful at the local level. There were quite a number of socialist mayors, city officials of various kind. There was a very vibrant International Socialist society for College Students started by jack london. So a lot of College Campus ferment about socialism. There was an enormously lively press, some of our best journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press, journals like the masses out of grants village. So socialism was much bigger than counting the votes, i think. And today in congress, the United States senator Bernie Sanders of vermont is a socialist. And we talked to him about debs legacy. Lets listen to a bit of what he had to say. A lot of the ideas that he advocated, talked about when people get old there should be social insurance for them, there should be Retirement Benefits for them. Well, thats what we call Social Security today. And amazingly enough in the year 2011, there are those same people who hate debs when he was alive who now want to destroy Social Security. He believed that health care was a right of all people. That battle continues today. I think it is fair to say that many of the huge advances made during the 30s under president roosevelt, the Great Society under lyndon johnson, and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention it was the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. And Lisa Phillips, let me ask you to add your perspectives to the america that he saw and was dissatisfied with, and ultimately whether or not he saw himself as antiamerican or wanting to change america. No, i dont think he saw himself as antiamerican at all. In fact, i think he thought that he was advocating through his socialist party and labor Union Activity a kind of america that he harkened back to again in the old days of terre haute of one that was more Community Centered and less driven by big business. He wasnt in his early days, he wasnt even anticapitalist at all and worked with the railroad companies. But it wasnt until the advent of corporate capitalism or big business that he really felt as if there had to be a movement against that the forprofit motive that continued to bring everyday workers wages down. Let me ask you you have something to add to that . I agree with lisa. I think one of the things that made debs so powerful was his ability to cast socialism as an american movement. His argument wasnt this is a revolutionary country in the first place, fought a revolution for democracy, and in his lifetime he experienced the civil war as a revolution. And so some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists. His argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow slavery and the next step is to overthrow wage flavory as he called it. A question for who were his workers . Did he include women in his view of it . Did he include people other than whites . Did he include immigrants . What was his definition . Lisa . Well, he as one of the First Industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class which he believed everyone who was a worker who earned wages, which were twothirds of americans by 1890, was a part of. Whether they be an immigrant, whether they be black, whether they be women. He certainly saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be just of uplifted in some way, shape, or form. Theres controversy still to this day among historians about whether he did enough on behalf of women and africanamericans, and he had some trouble seeing immigrants especially chinese immigrants and italian immigrants who came over temporarily and worked for very low wages and brought them back to their home countries as part of the same american working class that was trying to fight for higher wages. So he had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. But certainly his as an Industrial Movement was one that recognized the rights of all workers, whether regardless of their backgrounds. I understand that youve got one of the artifacts, a copy of the jungle, Upton Sinclair. Whats the significance . Well, its of huge significance. Upton sinclair wrote the jungle and published it in 1905. He was a member of the socialist party and highlighted the horrible conditions that meat packers worked in in chicago, the conditions what riled up the country was not only the conditions of the workers who were making working in the meat packing industry, but also the quality of the meat, the processed meat that was coming out of the plant. So he was the one who wrote about rats and peoples fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. So he worked he and debs were supporters of one another, and Upton Sinclair was able to, like debs, demonstrate the problems with the growing growth of big business. And it was Upton Sinclairs work that led to the creation of the regulation of the food and meat industries, the precursors to the fda. So very much of the same mindset in terms of demonstrating the negative consequences of big business. The book ends with a scene where yurgis wanders into a socialist meeting and hears a character whos clearly supposed to be eugene debs making a socialist speech. For Upton Sinclair, that was supposed to be enough food and drug regulations, although he supported those, but socialism was the bigger answer. So debs is actually right in the book. Would you tell us the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept and thinking of socialism at that time . Yes. He was he was headed the American Railway union which had mounted a successful strike against the Great Northern Railroad Company based in minneapolis. And in 1893. So the aru, as a result of that strike, gained thousands and thousands of members with debs as its head. And not many of those members were part of the Pullman Palace Car Company in 1894. So they petitioned, they asked the aru for support when they decided to walk out against George Pullman who had dropped their wages as a result of the 1893 depression by 28 . Once the wages were dropped, they wanted to walk out and asked the aru headed by debs at that point for support. And debs was reluctant at first. He thought it was too risky. But the pullman workers had a lot of support, not only within pullman, the town of pullman, outside of chicago, but also had a lot of support from Railway Workers all the way from there to st. Louis. So they staged what were some of the first boycott or sympathetic strikes along the railway lines. And it became national in scope. And as a result of that, president Grover Cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the the power of the aru and stopping the transport of good the and especially the u. S. Mail along the railways through that corridor. And so Grover Cleveland got involved in the u. S. He sent u. S. Troops to open up the Railway Depots that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the aru. And then debs was ultimately didnt call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. So he served three months in prison as a result of being convicted of being in contempt of court. And so then, it was then when he was in prison after the pullman strike that he was introduced to socialist Party Literature and became a socialist party member and then staunch advocate. I read a description that he entered left prison a changed man the first time. Do you know more about that . Well, i think he did come to the realization, he felt that when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as it could be that the two parties were both working against labor. And that there needed to be an alternative. He didnt go right away to socialism. He was involved in the populist party, very actively initially. And then when that failed, then the socialist party emerged after that. For our two guests, were going to begin bringing your telephone calls into the mix. Weve got the phone numbers, and well put them on the screen. They are 202 highprofile 7370001 in the each or central time zones, if youre in the mountain or pacific time 2027370002. And well mix call in throughout the 9 0 minutes here. We want to give a sense of where the house is in terre haute and on the campus of indiana state university. Were going to show you that via great google map as we listen to our first caller from bath, north carolina. This is steve. Hi, steve. Youre on the air. Caller please compare debs with William Jennings bryant in 1912. And for that matter, over their careers. It seems like they are appealing or trying to appeal to similar constituency. Thanks very much. The election of 1912, William Jennings bryant was an earlier profile. How did they compare . Debs was initially an admirer of bryant. And i think that they shared some concerns about reform. I think the crucial difference is that debs was really a revolutionary. He was not only interested in reform. Reform was necessary, but he felt that something much greater was needed. That there needed to be an end to capitalism and Public Ownership of the means of production. And that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryants campaign. The election, it was his first try, 1900. William mckinley, William Jennings bryant, and he got. 6 of the popular vote that year. And do you know what his early appeal were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids . The real challenge for debs was to try to knit together socialists coming from very, very different positions. One of the strongest hotbeds of socialism was oklahoma. People who had been populists started to develop these socialist camp meetings where they would gather together for to hear socialists speeches, and debs was a real hero there. But the socialists needed to also speak to trade unionists in chicago and milwaukee, to radical bohemians in San Francisco and greenwich village, to jewish garment workers on the lower east side. So the real challenge for debs and for the party was to find a way to knit together people who all agreed on some level that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. But were coming at this from very, very different positions. So it took a while to build the apparatus. These folks, another election in 1908 when involved William Jennings bryan, it looked like debs was beginning to understand tellery marketing because he had some Campaign Tactics like the red train special and the red special band. Can you tell us more about that . Well, 1908 was a critical year because of the ascend ants of the popularity of the socialist party and the strength of labor unions and the labor unions in this period. His message i think as earnest was just saying appealed to increasingly more people from a diverse amounts of backgrounds. So the red special would have been a good unifying kind of symbol to use to unite what were very disparate groups of people who were either working on farms or who were in urban areas. So it meant to his supporters kind of a a challenge to big business. A challenge to capitalism. They would have called it big business for monopolies in that period. Thats what red then would have indicated in the 1908 election. It was a good way to unify people with just the use of the red special. Next call from california, this is a caller named randy. Hi, randy, welcome. Caller thank you. Yes, i just wanted to kind of give a little bit of background. My grandfather actually voted for eugene in his election. The other thing that i had is as i went through the primary grades of school through high school, we never heard of eugene debs. It seems like one of the things that is really lacking in our Education System is labor history. The fact that when people talk about Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, and many people even older people are surprised that people died for those benefits. They were not gifts. They were fought for. People were literally killed, wasnt, and jailed for the right to Unemployment Insurance for the workday. With the neofascists that are running on the Republican Party trying to push the Republican Party further to the right, it seems like debs is not only a part historically but to reestablish that message now more than ever because now i think were at a critical part of history where if were not careful, we could be drifting toward fascism. And i think that eugene debs message now was a question . A question for you, randy, before you go . The question is do you think that did you talk about debs with your grandfather . No, i understood your question. Im asking you did you talk with your grandfather about debs . Caller yes, i did. Which election the 1916 election i believe. That would be 1920. 1916 was the year he sat out as a matter of fact. Thank you, randy. Appreciate it. First of all, why did he sit out in 1916 . He was in ill health. I think he only ran in 1920 because of the unusual circumstances. He felt it was time to pass on the baton of the movement to somebody else. He did run for congress here in indiana in 1916. But he didnt feel up to the red special. When he was on the red special train, he was giving 15 speeches a day, and he would come back exhausted to terre haute and collapse i guess in one of the bedrooms upstairs and spend weeks trying to recover. So 1916 he decided to sit out. Lisa phillips, randys comments probably were music to your ears about the lack of teaching of labor history in schools. You teach at the college level. But im wondering what youre thinking about teaching of labor history to americas students today. Oh, of course i would say that it should be taught more than it is. I think that theres so much we can learn about about working people, about people all of us who work every day and through to make ends meet, and to value them by teaching their history is very important. And it gives us a different perspective on what it means to fight for some of those rights that the caller was mentioning and not take them for granted and realize that as hard fought as they were fought for, they can can be easily, you know, taken away and fought for again. We need to really teach i think those struggles and how difficult it was so that we dont simply take for granted the benefits that weve received as a result of them. And the early parts of the 20th century, was there a middle class in the United States . Sure. Yes. I mean, large part of corporate capitalism was it actually generated a much larger middle class. And so the people that he represented, would they have been part of that middle class . Was the working class there were a large number of middleclass supporters. People who went to debs meetings expecting to see them just be working class people were surprised to find that they were actually, many of the most important writers and political thinkers that we can think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party or at least very sympathetic to their agenda. So it was really he considered it a working Class Movement, but it had a very strong leadership component from the middle class. And the period 1900 to mid 1915 or so, would it have been dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the United States . Were the authorities watching you in any sort of way . Well, no, i would say it was not. I mean, there are particular incidents and to be involved as a socialist in particular strike environments or was was a problem. There was some conflict over the rights of soapbox speakers, the socialists were big believers in bringing their message to the street through soapbox oratory, and sometimes there were clashes with police. In terms of the sort of persecution of socialists, they were very much part of the political conversation in this period. When did that change, and when did people the public at large begin to get more suspicious about intentions . Well, when socialists started to get a lot of votes, that started the conversation, 1908 and 1912. Teddy roosevelt called debs one of our most undesirable citizens, bloodshed and anarchy. There was a sense that the forces of moderate opinion needed to push back against socialism rhetorically at first. It wasnt really until world war i that the gloves really came off and socialism was sort of physically and legally assaulted. Next is a caller named cal watching us in midtown manhattan. Youre on. Caller hello, hello, hello. Im loving this series. Thank you for the series. Really fascinating history. Thank you. I just off the bat, there are a couple of things that just strike me and hopefully your guests can comment on one or the other. One is the grievances against growing capitalism, strangling the rights of the people as it was thought of then, as it is now. As you know, like we have to have this protest in Lower Manhattan occupy wall street that seems to have as part of its platform some of the same grievances as i understand them. And the idea of the organization, the mechanics of the organization of the movement i dont know if youre aware of this, but occupy wall street is receiving a lot of criticism because theyre making a deliberate attempt not to have a specific platform or agenda or list of grievances. Maybe you can talk about the the mechanics of organizing a movement as debs understood it, and who might have inspired him in his life with the things that he might grant . Thank you for the series. Thank you. Thanks, cal. Let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grieveses against capitalism. Grievances against capitalism. His grievances against capitalism, it was monopoly, corporate rap tacapitalism thatd the most trouble with. He thought an overflow of capitali capitalism, the grievance was the wealth in the hands of a few and controlling what he argued early on was the combinations of corporations, of Business Owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy. And thats what he he was clearly against. So what he advocated were labor unions as similar combinations of workers who could then Work Together to break the monopoly monopoly that corporate entities had been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy at the time. So in that in that way, people argue that our time period is very similar to debs time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. The mechanics that he used to organize them. Well, i think thats an interesting very interesting question. It is the case that socialyisis one of the things that made debs and socialism work in the way it has not worked since is their talent for organizing, their willingness to attend a lot of meetings. And to develop a separate independent press. They were very strong critics in a way that sounds very modern about the influence of big money on few hours, on the media of the day. And very much believed that there was no way that people were going to hear the workers side of the story or their side of the story if they didnt create their own alternative press. So that was crucial. Debs was debs was the exciting person who blew into town and rallied the troops. But socialism really relied on much more of a grassroots organizing process. And a lot of attempts to win at the local level. The presidency was out of reach, but it was not impossible to get on the city council. But we also have to think about the time period. This was even before radio began. And so politics for americans in those days meant what in their lives . I mean, was it was it an activity to fill the evenings in ways we dont appreciate today . Sure. This was a period of enormous party loyalty. It was starting to fade in this time period, but not for and all socialists. I guess what im asking is so people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches in ways that now were busy with lives and have lots of media in our lives and that sort of thing. And i think that the there were many more newspaper sources, and they were much more barbed. Labor unions had their own press. So there was a much more complicated mix available to people in print. Actually while were talking about media, Lisa Phillips, will you talk about a publication for which debs wrote frequently called the appeal to reason . Sure. Its my earpiece came out for just a second. Its sitting right here next to me. This is the appeal to reason right here. And it was started in 1895 as a populist party newspaper. And it became the journal or the newspaper of the socialist party in 1901. And so it is one of those publications, many newspapers of which would have existed and did exist in that time period where people would read and find out as much information as they could. So it was it was Upton Sinclair whose book we showed earlier was first serialized in the appeal to reason. The first final it was published was here in the appeal to reason. Other people wrote in it, debs wrote in it, jack london wrote in it. So many, many authors of the period would have written first in the appeal to reason which was after 1901 the socialist partys newspaper. Id like to very briefly read to you from a statement that debs made after the 1912 election. He sent it by telegraph to be published in the appeal to reason. Results of the 1912 election statement. Heres briefly he wrote from returned hand it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote. Now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. Were the only ones who came out with colors flying. Debs wrote the socialist party from now on is the party of the people, this virile young giant will make history in the next years. Soon after the democrats go in power, they will demonstrate their utter impotency and helplessness, and thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust. How was he as a prognosticator . That was a bad prediction. The socialist Party Started to decline right after that election. And at least in terms of membership. And never recovered that peak. One of the reasons why . One of the main reasons is the Wilson Administration did just the opposite of what debs predicted there. It brought in a slate of reform s. Our controls for eighthour day for Railroad Workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gestures toward the right for unions to organize. Steps only steps, small steps toward what the socialists wanted, but certainly enough to win a lot of voters. Lets take our next telephone call. Its from courtland, new york. And this is sharon on the line. Sharon, go ahead, please. I want to cspan for this wonderful series. Im enjoying it so much. Im wondering if your guests might comment on his early life, his formative years and what his parents did for a living. Thank you very much. Thank you. Would you like to take that . You know, im not exactly sure i can remember what debs father did for a living. They lived in terre haute. I know that he was a great idealist. And debs himself is his middle name is after victor hugo and the sort of idealism of the french novelist was a big part of debs upbringing. His family french extraction, Lisa Phillips . I was just remembering that debs father was a a kind of a processor of pork in terre haute and manufacturing plant and was ill. He couldnt do that work, so theres reminiscences of his being depressed as a worker and his wife was they had small children, and she was pregnant with with eugene debs. And so they opened a Small Grocery in the front of their house. And he went on to become a successful small grocer in terre haute. So his dad was a grocer. And so one of debs first jobs was as an accountant for the home and grocery line. And he had had experience with the family business. So that enabled him to do that work. So that was that was what his family his familys income came from having been a small involved in Small Business. Why did he have to drop out of school at age 14 . As i recall, i think it wasnt common for people to finish high school. And he wanted to he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become a part of. And so his very first job was as a paint scraper i think for the local railroad that was running through terre haute that was coming through. It was owned by Chauncey Rose first and then by william mckeon. So he was a paint scraper first, and it was a new and exciting job for him in an era where people didnt as commonly finish high school. We were talking about his personal life, can either of you tell us about his marriage . That was always a source of controversy in the movement. He was deeply loyal to to kate debs. But it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congressman and not as a socialist. Its you know, shes often spoken in favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusiastically many decided. She probably would have been happier if he had not pursued that life which also kept him on the road most of the time. I mean, debs was back in terre haute mostly to collapse upstairs and try to recover before he headed out on another campaign. She was left keeping the home fires burning here in this lovely house. So kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are right now, in this house of terre haute, indiana with sort of down and out Railroad Workers knocking at the door and hoping that they could see their hero. Did they ever have any children . No. And you said that he traveled extensively, and she chose never to do that or we dont know if she was invited to come along . Hard to know whats lets take the next telephone call from terre haute, indiana. This is tom. Were in your hometown. Have you been to the debs house . No, i have not. I worked two blocks away from there. So i have no excuse for that. But thank you for a fantastic series. I would just like to make a comment, a quick comment because there are so many people across america would love to be calling. I just lucked out to do it. But i just want to say this when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers, and i want to make one point i lived in colorado, and i worked forwestinghouse, and called on the minds of colorado. I use today to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25, and i would pass a town called ludlow. And i would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massacre, and im not sure when it happened. Im sure debs was alive at the time. But i would just hang up now, and please ponder what ive said, you moguls of america who we need we need jobs, and we need them now. So please could you tell us a little about the ludlow massacre and colorado . Well, the ludlow massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blamed on the striking workers or the protesting workers at the time, whether they be minors or whether they be protesting for their rights. What happened in ludlow which happened in haymarket which happened in other riotous incidents were there were federalist troops or other authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers. And many of them would be killed. So i cant remember how many people died in the ludlow massacre, but in haymarket and in other riots in the homestead strike, several people would be killed and then the labor the unions or the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot and for protesting. So that caused a lot of that was part of the reason why a precursor to the aru, the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed in part for the haymarket riot which caused the deaths of several people. So the ludlow massacre similarly was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed, the strikers themselves were blamed, unfortunately, for that. So i think to get to the callers original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. He had been friends with people in terre haute like william mckmck mckeene. Who he supported when they had the best interests of terre haute in mind, it was when they brought in what mckeene and others of the period called heavy capitalist. Wh capitalists. Trying to make relationships with people out east that debs tried to break ties with smaller Business Owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. So it was it wasnt Small Business that he originally was against. It was the forprofit motive that drove those Small Businessmen to become business moguls, and then create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and the haymarket riot among workers who had they didnt think any other choice but to strike. Were there socialists all across the United States, or was it a regional phenomenon, lisa . Oh, no. It was all across the United States. Here in the midwest, and also out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party, big bill haywood was a Foundation Member of it. So Founding Member of it. So mostly out west, oklahoma, as earnest said, the midwest and in the east in places like new york where the strongholds of the socialist party. But the remarkable thing about the socialists was they drew support from rural americans and farms being affected negatively by capitalism, from urban areas like chicago and new york. From western coal miners. So they drew support from lots of people who were similarly, negatively affected by the rise of this corporate kind of capitalism. You had a thought you wanted to add . Well, i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, debs i dont think believed that that was possible at this point. I think rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to smallscale capitalism, socialists were interested basically arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. The important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than individuals for private gain. This is a this is a much more radical proposition as a way to solve this problem. I mean, there were plenty of people including capitalists who were seriously engaged with trying to figure out how to soften the hard edges of the Industrial Revolution that was going on. Andrew carnegie most notably with his gospel of wealth suggested that there needed to be more benevolent moguls. Debs said thats not the problem essentially, you know, we need to continue to build monopolies and then take them for the people. We are profiling eugene b. Debs at his home in terre haute, indiana. Our series the contender that looks at 14 men who tried for the presidency and lost but changed American History. We have 90 minutes tonight to learn more about his period of time, his five runs for the presidency were from 1900 through 1920. For our two guests here, our next call is from annandale, virginia, outside washington. This is john. Hi, john. Caller hi, susan. Wonderful program, and thanks for cspan. I was intrigued by your guests comment that Teddy Roosevelt said that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in america or something to that effect. When Teddy Roosevelt himself is known as the trust buster and breaking up standard oil and the like. So it would seem that they would have at least some things in common common. I wonder if your guests could comment on that. Sure. Very good question. Roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debsian program and cost it. Debs with his interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democratically, that this was a crazy idea that would undermine one of the pillars of american democracy in private property and free enterprise. On the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers as well as the middle ktla about the problems of big business. So he basically roosevelt argued that it was important to take the good ideas, the things that we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways, that weve been talking about, and to adopt those. So these became an important part of his Progressive Party platform. And were also part of the reform agenda for the Wilson Administration. Shed debs wants to tear down in the spirit of hate by stirring up class workers against their masters in a sense, but what he wanted to do was to was to socialize the country in a different way, without socialism. Lisa phillips, you have more to add to that question . I think, too, if i i might be remembering this wrong, but i dont think Teddy Roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the aru with pullman. So that seemed very dangerous to president s who were in charge of making sure that the country ran smoothly. So any time you saw a case where there was a strike fomented by a National Labor union that disrupted the distribution of goods and something as crucial as the mail in that time period that, too, would have put Teddy Roosevelt and eugene debs on opposite sides of the divide there around what how much how strong you should be in terms of being able to stop business from functioning. Another topic altogether to understand socialist thinking in the United States in the early 20th century. What about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion . A very large number of the of socialists were religious, especially in the south, in oklahoma, texas. There was a strong party there. And a very Strong Movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity. Many of those people were supporters of debs. Even though debs himself was a believer only in the most tenuous sense, he considered churches to be to be the enemy. Sort of the part of the apparatus to oppress workers, particularly the catholics. He was critical, claimed never to go into a church. But many christians felt that he in his sort of humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified and just a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said, you know, i dont know what he believes, but hes the most christlike person that i know, that his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. So there was a very this was an important distinction i think between the debsian socialist movement and, say, the communist movement that comes after that, that it was very much capable not everybody in that socialist movement was a believer by any means. But it was something where that was an important part of the mix. If you signed your name to a card that said im a member of the socialist party in this time period, what did that mean, the core of your beliefs were . That the most important struggle was a struggle between the working class and the owning class. That this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessary next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, i think a necessary next step to realize or to protect the pralts of the American Revolution, the sort of dignity of individuals. But embodied in their ability to participate equally in their economy. So very much saw themselves as patriots . We touched on that theme before. Yes. Harkening back to he spoke of lincoln and also of some of the Founding Fathers in his writing. So he really saw himself as an extension of the early roots of American History. Defining american the important movers and shakers in American History as being radicals. You know, that history is driven forward by people, you know, he would point back to jesus, to to socrates, to thomas jefferson, to john brown, wendell phillips. You know, that history moves forward by people who, you know, start out with an idea thats that seems deeply unpopular, but in retrospect is the necessary next step for moral evolution. We have a hoosier for our next call from bloomington. There is chris on the line. Hell hello, chris. Welcome to the conversation. Caller thanks for having the conversation. Its a great surprise to see you on television tonight. I was wondering if your guests would be able to comment on debs relationship with the Industrial Workers of the world, and with general strike in seattle in 1919. All right. Lisa phillips, the iww. Yes. Debs was a Founding Member of the iww which started in 1905, and the iww was a clearly an Industrial Union movement. So it was juxtaposed against the American Federation of labor which was more of a craft, skilled workersbased union. The iww was like what debs advocated with socialism was a Movement Among a working class of people. And it saw its boundaries not as national, not as nationalistic. It sought to work with workers in other countries, spain, france, italy. And as part of this never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of a workers Movement Among workers fighting cap tom worldwide rather than just capital worldwide rather than just in the United States. It fit debs interpretation of what had to be done to promote the rights of workers not only in the United States but in other places in the world, as well. Was he affiliated with them throughout his life . No. He there was a split within the its kind of complicated, but there was a split within the iww over the socialist party had there was a split within the socialist party that affected the iww. And so he remained very much supported the iww but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist Party Leaders i think it was Morris Hillquit took and big bill haywood kind of took over the iww, at least brought it into a different vision than debs had in mind. Was the iww the wobblies . Yes. Yes. I think one of the most important breaks was over the issue of violence or sabotage. You know, the wobblies argued this was a tough bunch in a very tough environment working in the mines and lumber fields. They argued that there were times in weather in order to advance their cause they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violent to order to fight back. Did drebs agrebs agree with . He did not agree. He was a pacifist and realized there were times to use violence but felt the strategy of advocating violence was not appropriate for american democracy and that, in fact, workers always lost. When they tried violence, you know, most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. Next up is minneapolis, and this is ken. Hi, ken. Caller hello. This is ken in minneapolis. Thank you, cspan, for this wonderful series. I can hardly wait for george mcgovern. And i work in public radio, and a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about debs and media. And in new york city, there is or was a famous radio station, wevb, named for eugene b. Debs. And it debuted in the early 1920s and was one of the nations first noncommercial listenersupported radio stations. And given debs name and the call letters, im curious if he had any involvement with the radio station. Thanks. His demise was in 1926, just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. Did he have a connection . As far as i know, its an homage to him, but he had no direct connection to it. Lisa, were we only have 35 minutes left already. This programs going by quickly here. A question for you about debs, if you can answer this, is if he were to walk into this room were surrounded by images of him all over this house. Its really interesting how many you all have preserved in the foundation. Can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was . Was he slight . How give us a personal glimpse of him if you can. As far as i know he was i think he was 62 or 3, earnest, im not sure if thats correct thats about right. I think he was always very thin. So he was very lanky. You can see that in the pictures of him. And he was that way from his youth on. So he was a commanding figure, but he was not burley i guess i would say. You told me, ernie, that he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fads of the days. More early holistic health. Can you tell us more about that . Yeah. He was. He was often ill, and. It was hard to pin down just what the problem was. I think some biographers suggested it was a sort of nervous exhaustion from these hard campaigns, the stress that he was under. And he would often retreat to try to recover and would find his way to sanitariums where he would experiment with walnuts and ketchup diet and sleeping with his head oriented toward the north and these sorts of things. And often would write letters back to his dear brother suggesting that these things were working out just great for him. Switching gears here in our time. As the nation began to march toward world war i, what happened to the Labor Movement as all this International Political turmoil in the country was making Big Decisions about its role in that. Sure. Well, when the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were really very determined to keep out of the war. And they were isolationists, especially in the midwest and in the south, who said, you know, there was a god gave us the Atlantic Ocean for a very good reason, and thats to not get involved in the european war. The many large immigrant groups in the country were deeply divided about the conflict overseas but didnt want to participate helping the other side. So there was a strong push for neutrality initially, really until things escalated out of control. Wilson himself was elected for a second term campaigning that he had kept kept the country out of war, that he was a negotiator for peace. Just weeks after being inaugurated for a second term, he started to move the country to war. And i want to show our viewers your book because were getting into your subject area, democracys prisoner eugene b. Debs the war and right to descent. The Congress Passed a law about speech about the war. Would you tell our viewers what that was. Sure, its called the espionage act but was never used to convict any spies during the war. There were german spies, and much of the law dealt with that. There were provisions that allowed for the government to have enormous control over descent. The postmaster was given the power to ban any publication that was published anything that the postmaster considered to be not supportive of the war, not sufficiently patriotic. And anybody who was deemed to give us to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was liable to a 10,000 fine and a 10 to 20 years in prison. Obviously today we look and say, First Amendment challenges all over this. Did the Supreme Court ever hear the law . Sure, yeah, they did. Debs was one of the important test cases. There were three test cases that came up, about 1,200 people were convicted under the espionage act. And were sent to prison. And were sent to prison. The Supreme Court unanimously supported it at that point. Now debs began to be antiwar at what point . Well, he was he was as i said i think earlier, he wasnt a pacifist. He said, you know, there are some wars, there is a class struggle in which it might make sense at some point to take up arms. He felt the civil war was an appropriate use of arms. But he considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument was that this was a clash between competing empires over colonies, and that the only people who are going to benefit the old phrase a rich mans war and a poor mans fight, you know, that the there was lots of money to be made in the war, but the working people were the ones who are going to suffer. That was the socialist position. When the war broke out, when wilson and congress moved to toward the socialists gathered a few days later in st. Louis and passed a proclamation vowing that they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way they could and fight the draft actively. A number of socialists broke from the party at that point. Upon sinclair weve been talking about, he felt as if that was the wrong move. Others worried that the party would be destroyed by this, that it would be labeled unamerican. But debs and quite a number of the party decided that it was, you know, a stand they needed to take. I want to take a call from reed in nashville, tennessee, and then ask you about what the popular view in america was about the draft at that time. Sure. Reed, your question, please. Caller how do you do . Thank you again of course for your discussion tonight. Very wonderful. I do want to take thanks for watching caller yes. Unfortunately really socialism, debs, and the ideal of the key word meaning a Central Planning, and that would mean that theres a group who involved themselves in the Central Planning of our economy or our society, and that leads itself to a small group who defined how citizens should behave. I want to say that socialism although wonderful in its ideals and communismist ideals and all that does not truly exist. I believe that James Madison described it correctly that unfortunately good or bad, we are in competition with one another. That is what satisfied. That leads to individual freedom. Central planning leads to a small group which today reflects today as we want someone whose central plans are society as to who benefits and who doesnt benefit. It just leads to someone in a small Group Calling who wins and who loses. Thank you. Thank you again. Thanks, reed. Lisa phillips, comments for reed . Actually, that was not too far off from debs position, believe it or not. What he was arguing was that the central planners of his day were japanese large Business Owners, the Andrew Carnegie the, the jd rockefellers, the Cornelius Vanderbilts who had a lot of political power and influence, who in essence through monopoly formation were the central planners of the economy in that period. So he was he would have been with you on that. But he just wanted there to be a more Diverse Group of people, working people who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. So he he was against the Central Planning that was being done in the period by by very wealthy by that point americans and Business Owners. In the interests of time here, we were talking about the draft. But i want to go on to his position on the draft. And his famous speech in canton, ohio. To share with our viewers, it was a speech that ended up having debs arrested. And just to get flavor of it, here is one of two quotes. The working class who freely shed their blood and furnished the corpses have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. Yours not to reason why, yours but to do and die, if war is right, let it be declared by the people. When he made that speech, did he know he was going to go jail . He had to know that it was likely. He knew that there were federal agents, stenographers in the audience taking down what he had to say. I think he was he gave a number of speeches along the same lines up to that point and had not been arrested. He said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say, im not going to say anything i dont believe, but i have to be careful, i know im being watched, and the audience fully understood the situation. He spent a lot of that time in that speech denouncing the fact that many of his comrades were already in prison, and he said if theyre guilty, im guilty. What was his trial like . Was it a big, National Event . Yes, it certainly was. It was in cleveland, and debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. He his lawyers, you know, hoped to get him off on a technicality, and they were interesting in making a strong free speech argument in his defense. He felt as if, you know, the system was rigged, that the judiciary was in the pockets of big business, and it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism by sort of laying out his lifes work. And he ultimately was sentenced to ten years. You said that the possible terms were up to 20. Is that right . Thats right. Ten was hard to say that he got a break. He was an older man at that point and not good health. And when he went off to prison, it was many people assumed that if he didnt get out, you know, he would have died in prison. Were about 20 minutes left. Were going to take a couple of calls and then talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. Tecumseh, oklahoma, don ago ahead, please. Caller i am so happy to hear this program. I cant tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. A little comment about ludlow, colorado. I was a very good friend of a woman who was my mothers age, and she talked about her parents being part of what happened in ludlow. And she told me because i was going on a roadtrip with my son, to look for a sign just north of trinidad alongside the road, and all it will say is say is th this is the place. That is the place where my mother and father were shot on a dry riverbed running for their lives. I lived for several years in san pedro, california and eclair was arrested in san pedro for relieving the dock workers. The third comment is i have moved back to oklahoma, i had been gone for about 50 years. I lived here as a teenager. But i went to a labor rally in support of the Wisconsin Public employees, and it was on the State Capitol steps. A friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin, and she told me that it was the Oklahoma State motto. And it was from a socialist desire. And it is labor conquers all. And now we are the reddest state in the union, which is kind of an ironic thing. Donna, thank you so much for your comments. Well let that stand and take a telephone call from eric in los angeles. Eric, go ahead, please. Caller yes, hello, i also am enjoying the program. I think that eugene debs really tried to keep us to our ideals. My question, though, is about joe paramon who was a Christian Socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900 and then later was involved in the trial of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. And joe paramon is one of the attorneys along with Clarence Darrow but i know that debs defended him from the mcnamaras, and i wondered if they could comment on that. Is this a period you could fill us in on . I dont know enough about it, but i failed to mention earlier that Clarence Darrow was a big part of eugene debs defense in 1894 after he was accused of being convicted for a contempt of court with the injunction after the pullman strike. But i dont know enough about joe paramon to comment with debs or the mcnamara brothers. That was during the condemning of the long Angeles Times building which was the center of an antilabor, antisocialist sentiment at that point. He believed the mcnamaras were innocent, and so much of his defense of them was really based on believing that this was a false charge. His second sentencing was under the espionage app, and he made a speech at his sentencing. One of his quotes from that time is among eugene v. Debs most famous. It is this. I said then and i say now that while there is a lower class, i am in it, and while there is a criminal element, i am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, i am not free. He went to prison and then the 1920 campaign which he decided to take part in. Have you heard about how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta . How did he do that . Well, he was not allowed it was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a seditionist being jailed, but he was also a legitimate candidate from a legitimate legal party. They actually showed up and presented him with flowers, nominated him, allowed him to give a little speech, the socialists did. But then the governmental loud h allowed him only to campaign by submitting a five or eightletter message to the campaign. He was basically relying on his party to go out and spread the word. Elise phillips, you have one of his campaign buttons. Can you show it to us . Here it is. Its very small. What does it say . It says, convict number 9653 for president. Its one of the most Famous Campaign buttons for president in u. S. History. The only one like it. He managed to garner nearly a million votes from inside that federal penitentiary. How did he do that . Thats a question for you, elise. He did it because he had such a national following. It was 1920. He had been in the newspaper for several years. People knew of his message. The iww continued to support him, labor unions continued to support him, and despite the fact he was accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military during world war i, which was extremely problematic, he still had a following among workers, among trade unionists, among socialists who believed in his message. He did that because of his National Reputation by then. What were some of the other themes of the 1920 campaign . Many of the socialist leaders, maybe a little less, but his campaigners said this is actually a vote for free speech. This is an opportunity for all americans, whether youre a socialist or not, to cast a vote in protest against the Wilson Administrations debs embodied at that point all the prisoners who were in prison and all the actions that were done by mob violence, by state laws, by the postal censor to squash the centers not just socialists, but passives had been rounded up. All of them in the grip of war fever thought it may be a good idea. They started to reconsider that and they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the American Civil Liberties union and trying to advance their rights. There were only about 100,000 socialists, actually far less than that at this point, i think the number is in the 20,000 to 30,000 duespaying members at this point, and he got a million votes. Some of those people were socialists, but i think a lot of those people were actually voting for free speech. Terre haute, indiana. Dave . Caller how are you all . Do you ever a questihave a q one of your famous citizens . I do. What was eugene v. Debs impact, if any . He was one of the educators. Devan influenid he have an infld he take part in the development of the university . Elise, do you know that answer . I dont know if he did anything with indiana state in that period, but i am curious now to find out. Syracuse university. Go ahead, please. Caller im from upstate new york, and at the time you had eugene debs and you had the socialist party and you had the socialist workers party, and then you had Samuel Gompers of the social labor. Gompers and eugene debs didnt see eye to eye, and thats the problem that you never had a unified Workers Union in this country. That was his problem that he was never able to achieve his goals and id like to see if your guests would comment on that. Thank you very much. In that day, it was the crafters union, so debs was after a working Class Movement where he erased the lines dividing skilled workers from unskilled workers where the American Federation of labor was composed of tightly organized craftbased unions whether they be plumbers or carpet layers or bricklayers, that kind of thing. It was an approach for the labor union and they didnt see eye to eye. Debs was campaigning in 1920. The attorney general put in front of him clemency petitions. Why did he say no . He was open to the idea, it seems. He had a stroke. He seemed to sort of lose his moral compass, but they felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill he might make. He heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. It was not just the government that considered debs and these others to have crossed a line. Debs was the embodiment of that consent. Were there veterans like that to keep debs out of jail . Sure. That was one of their primary missions when they first organized. After world war i, they said this was their priority number one, keep debs in prison. The ku klux klan was emerging at that point and they said it was important to keep debs in prison. There was not a lot of political gain, i think in his judgment, to really so how did he secure an Early Release . Wilson left office, and then the whole process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. People were in the Amnesty Movement were a lot less optimistic about harding because harding was a probusiness republican who seemed to have less motivation. You know, there were plenty of socialists who supported wilson. It seemed like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of the prison. But harding, he campaigned on this idea of returning the country to a prewar normalcy, to sort of stop these tensions. And the protest movement, the Amnesty Movement, to try to get debs out of prison was not just the election, but there was a huge movement. There were petitions being gathered across terre haute and across the country. They would have to bring the petitions in on the back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. Many people from across europe and the United States. George bernard shaw and h. G. Wells and h. G. Menkin and helen keller. He had no desire to inherit this mess from wilson, so he waited a little while and let debs out of prison. Not only let him out but invited him to the white house. Yeah. And debs went . Debs went, yeah. What do we know about that meeting . Neither of them said anything about it. Harding said something like, im so damn glad to meet you. It was a christmas afternoon meeting, i guess, and debs came out and said harding seems like a very nice man. I believe he said, you know, that the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric, but i have no intention of doing that, and then he got back on the train and headed to terre haute. Youre looking at some extremely rare footage, i dont know if its been seen before on tv, of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with the president there. He lived until 1926. We have about 10 minutes left. Lets get a couple calls and well talk more about his legacy. Ann arbor, michigan. James, youre on the air. Go ahead, please. Caller hi. Can i ask you a question . Go ahead, james. Caller hi. I have two questions. Hello . James, yes, we can hear you. Ask your question, please. Lets move on, please. Im sorry, our time is short. Next up is a call from graham in charleston, south carolina. Go ahead. Caller hey, good evening. My question, i just want to know what you think, if any, debs movement could exist in modern day america with the development of global capitalism, and then what you think debs would think about the Tea Party Movement thats going on currently. Thank you. Thanks very much. Its always a tough thing for historians, isnt it, to project what a historical character might think today, but do you want to take a stab at it . It needs to be done with real caution. First thing i would say, global capitalism is not something that is new. That was very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and the flow of capital and the worldwide nature of capitalism in debs own day. Sometimes it seems we overstate the Global Nature of the economy that we live in now. As far as the tea party goes, lisa . Well, he certainly wouldnt have been in agreement with the tea party supportive of big business. Thats the simplest way i can put it. I dont know you know, his message still resonates, i think, with us today, and were still facing some of the same problems he was fighting against as a result of by the wages being driven down by global Multi National corporations, and not just in the u. S. But worldwide, so he certainly would have something to say about the same type of things that would escalate from his period to today. Im sure he would still be against the negative impact of multinational corporations now globally. You have a final artifact for us to look at, his cell block keys . Yes. Look at the size of those. I know, theyre huge. Why dont i use the reminder of his prison term to have you help us kind of finish out our program in the last six or seven minutes left. How is he viewed by the Labor Movement today . How did they look back on his time and his contributions . Well, i just attended a banquet last week put on by the Debs Foundation where many trade unionists, and danny glover was in attendance, and everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. And he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. So he certainly resonates here in terre haute and among trade unionists across country, i would argue. As we think about his final years, i was showing you before we started here, time magazine, monday, november 26, his obituary with the headline radical eugene v. Debs. A model prisoner, around him he saw his socialist party disintegrating. Within him he felt his strength ebbing, his speeches seemed pathetic, his pen had lost its throb. He went to elmhurst, illinois where he died at age 71. How important a voice was he in those last years . He spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly splint splint splintered by the war, without success. And that was both a selfinflicted wound because the socialist party itself had had a bitter split over communism, and it was a very difficult thing for him. The communists were trying to convince him to join them. You know, he was the countrys most famous most highprofile and beloved radical, and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. And debs had been very enthusiastic about the bolshevik revolution, but he refused to sign on with the communists, objecting to a dictatorship of the pro letariat and objecting. O the party had been hit by legal attacks during the war, so he tried to rebuild the party for those years without a whole lot of success. He is buried here in terre haute, indiana at highland lawn cemetary. We have some video of his gravesite and well look at that as we listen to manny from new york city. Caller my question is what did debs do with the revolution, and can you separate socialism from marxism during this period of time . Thanks so much. Huge topics with not much time. He did not visit russia. There was an attempt to get him to go to russia. The bolsheviks considered debs to be an american hero. He was, as i said, an admirer of the bolshevik revolution, but seemed to think what they did was not appropriate for american socialism. Americans, in spite of all he had experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions, he still believed in american democracy and still believed that the way forward for American Workers was to organize unions and to support the socialist party. We have another terre haute call. Its great to have people locally participating. This is todd. Go ahead, todd. Caller hi. Im calling from terre haute and id like to thank you for this program. For lisa, who i understand is a member of the eugene v. Debs foundation, i would like her to address debs continuing legacy of peace, equality and social justice and let people know how they might pursue their interests in debs if they want to know something more about him. Certainly. Well, in this age of technology, there is a website devoted to the Debs Foundation, so thats certainly an easy way to access more information about the Debs Foundation and about whats here in the debs house and about debs legacy. You know, the social justice piece is what we call it today, but as i said earlier, he certainly continues to provide inspiration to working people here in terre haute and throughout the u. S. As they struggle against lowering wages, unemployment, all the things that are plaguing us today. This house is open for visitors. How many do you get every year and how do people visit . I dont know the numbers on how many people we have every year, but the museum is open every afternoon of the week and on saturdays. And you can go to the website and contact karen brown who runs tours of the museum throughout the week. We have one minute left. Im going to turn the floor over to you. A great resource, Indiana University collections has online a great collection of debs and his pamphlets and access to letters and so forth. Your book, too, as we close here, ernest freedmans book is about eugene v. Debs, his imprisonment under the espionage act and his campaign for president in 1920 in his final years. I want to say thank you to both of us as we close out here in terre haute, indiana, and telling us more about this third party fivetime pursuer of the white house. Again, debsfoundation. Org is their website. Charles king, Indiana University, special collections here at the university and our affiliate time warner cable. Thanks to all of you for helping us put this program together. From terre haute, indiana, the eugene v. Debs home and museum. Week nights on American History tv were looking at the contenders, people who lost the election but had a lasting effect on u. S. Politics. Tonight we feature chief of Justice Charles hughes. He ran for president in 1916 against woodrow wilson. Watch tonight beginning at 8 00 eastern. And enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the American Revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and logging into class. With most College Classes closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage this their students. Gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union. But reagan met him halfway. Reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. I should just mention madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press, and it is indeed freedom to print things and publish things. It is not a freedom for what we lefr refer to institutionally as the press. American history tv on cspan3 every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Eric foner teaches a class on socialism in the early 20th century america. He includes the socialist party eugene debs. This is a class at Columbia University called the american radical tradition, and we started with the American Revolution and have been going through the abolitionist movement, early feminism, the civil war reconstruction, labor conflict in the gilded age, the populist movement, and now were sort of entering into the 20th century. And in the next couple