>> all right. thank you very much, evan. obviously very significant details. and just all the specifics here, right? five hours, gosh, rudy giuliani would be thrilled with that. what was he saying, a couple but no more than 12? my goodness. "outfront," national affairs correspondent for "the nation" joan walsh. former senior communications adviser to the campaign, jason miller. january 27th, five hours, camp david. this could all be in the rear-view mirror. are you bummed they didn't just get it done? >> what we don't know is how close the sides were. obviously we don't know if -- really what the full terms were. this could have been something where maybe the president's team didn't feel that it was that advantageous of a situation for them. >> but i mean, jason -- i know we don't know how close, and you and evan are both right to emphasize that. but a lot closer than we've ever thought anybody was. we had a date, a time, a place. that's pretty specific is all i'm saying. you don't get to that point unless you've done a lot of the preambles. that's all i'm saying.