Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20170913

Richest company in the world. Right. But i would stop short of saying its a transformational product, to switch it. Its not a drastic change from what it is and its going to be better to use, it has a bigger, sharper screen, the face recognition, other things that we can talk about. I like that its going to have a better battery life, but its an iphone. Its not drastically different than the ones that came before. Its a pretty good upgrade. Rose we conclude with part 2 of our conversation with steve bannon. Tonight the transition and the agenda for the Trump Administration. In the 48 hours after we won, theres a fundamental decision that was made. You might call it the original sin of the administration, if you refer to some people on the right, and you saw it that night in the acceptance speech when decision because you had to staff a government. To be brutally frank, the campaign look, i had never been on a campaign any entire life. Im a former investment banker, a media guy running a little web site. Our whole campaign was a little bit the island of misfit toys. Im wearing my combat jacket, havent shaved, my hair is down to here, and hes saying i have to put together a government, i have to staff out something, i need to embrace the establishment, and we did. Rose north korea, apple and a conversation with steve bannon when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we turn to north korea, relations between the United States and that country have been fraught since the end of the korean war in 1953. The last several months have seen an escalation in tensions as north korea ramps up its Nuclear Program the Administration Responded with increasingly forceful language. Following north koreas sixth and Largest Nuclear test the United Nations voted this week to step up sanctions against the kim jong un regime. Many feared that a violent confrontation is increasingly likely. Joining me now from washington is evan osnos. He recently traveled to pyongyang on assignment for the new yorker magazine. His report offers a require inside look at north korea. He writes, in 18 years of reporting i never fault as much as uncertainty at the end of a project, a feeling nobody, not the diplomats, the strategists or scholars who have do de voted their lives to the subjects is able to describe with confidence how the other side thinks. I am pleased to have evan osnos back ton this program. Welcome. Thanks very much, charlie. Rose tell me who was on the trip, the purpose and plan . This trip began a few months ago really with the idea that we said we have to get there. We have to go to north korea to try to understand whats going on on the ground and they dont of course have diplomatic relations with the United States so you cant go to an embassy in washington. You can use the new york channel, an informer office that exists within the north Korean Mission to the u. N. , consists of a couple of diplomats who, in effect, manage relations with the United States, and i contacted them and i said, wed like to come, and they said, its going to take a while, and it took about five months. But by august, we had made an arrangement for me to go with a photographer named max pinkers and an assistant and the three of us went in on august 14. It happened to be this was a couple of days after donald trump had tweeted that the United States was, as he put it, locked and loaded for a potential confrontation with north korea. Rose so when you got there, what happened . Well, when i got there, they very clearly had app message that they wanted to send the rest of the world. This was not a casual choice on their part to allow an individual reporter. They typically allow reporters in large groups to come, but manage an individual reporter who is interested in talking about the the Nuclear Program they do less frequentsly. What they wanted to world to understand in effect, what they wanted me to understand over and over they said it was that they will not give up their Nuclear Program. If there was ever a point where they might have been willing to bargain that away for the sake of other elements of a diplomatic relationship, they believe that moment has passed and thats important because, at the moment, the United States fundamental strategy is predicated on the ultimate ambition t of trying to get north korea to give up its Nuclear Program. Rose why does it want a Nuclear Program . This is a key question, a source of tremendous debate. They say they want it for selfdefense. As the north korean officials told me, their leader kim jong un does not want to end up like Muammar Gadhafi or saddam hussein, two leaders that gave up Nuclear Weapons at the request of the United States and both removed from office and executed. Rose not by the United States. But they talk about it openly. In the case of Muammar Gadhafi, he gave up his weapons in 2003. George w. Bush said let this be a lesson to other countries that they, too, can find a better path to the United States. In 2011, the United States and n. A. T. O. Joined in assisting of the overthrow of gadhafi regime that led to his execution and thats what theyre very conscious of. Another element, which is important because the white house is concerned about it, which is in fact they do achieve selfdefense, do they go further around try to reunify with south korea or use the weapon to cry try to coerce the United States to reduce presence on the peninsula. Thats a debate going on now. Rose kim jong un is a leader. Is he is a rational leader . This is the crucial question, charlie. This is the question american intelligence analysts and analysts in beijing and seoul are struggling with. I traveled to beijing, seoul, spent a lot of time in washington, the idea of a lot of people is he is rational, can be dealt with. They dont believe he is mad or out of control. What they believe is that he is protecting his National Interests in the way he thinks he should, but that, at the moment, is putting him on a trajectory towards confrontation with the United States. A key point that i think gets lost is when we look at what hes doing we see him moving down this path of greater and greater tension with the u. S. , but there have been moments along the way where he has shown himself to be capable of restraint. Rose what else do they know about him . He began as a very mysterious figure. When he took power in 2011 the u. S. Knew almost nothing about him. Sue terry, senior c. I. A. Analyst at the time, said they had little more than a single photograph of him at 11 years old. Since then, quite a bit. He proved to be a skillful tactician and some is brutal. North korean politics is a very brutal business and he has gone after senior officials, removing them from power in ways that solidify his control. He is very much as a u. S. Official put it to me last week in control of the country, hes the top decider, this official said he is the one that matters. The notion he is a figurehead or somehow not running the country is not valid. He is in fact very much in control now. Rose he obviously has brought that country closer to Nuclear Weapons than his father or obviously his grandfather. I mean, he must have some skill to be able to do what he has done, no matter how ruthless it has been. Yeah, thats right. One of the things hes done that surprised american analysts is hes been willing to tolerate public failure in some cases. There have been, as we know, a number of tests, a number of missile launches, which have failed. In an earlier generation, they would have covered it up and pretended it never happened. Early on from his ton yore, he began to let it be known scientists would allow it to fail. The only way to have progress is backtoback tests and developing the program more broadly and deeply and accelerated progress that exceeded projections of american analysts. Theyre at a point where we thought way would be within five or ten years. I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is whether or not he is willing to compromise. This is something his father was able to do. Kim jong un, you know, as much as he was an eccentric and very much a provocative figure, was constantly playing against the United States in a way he would provoke and get to the negotiating table, provoke and get back to the table. Kim jong un so far has not shown he has the ability to know when its time to sit down. Thats what americans are waiting for now. In the white house they are waiting for a signal from north korea that its time to negotiate. Rose do we know whether he in fact in the end would like to see korea unified . Theres no question he would. This has been the driving ambition of the of his country ever since his grandfather founded it is to try to reunify the Korean Peninsula, and the question is whether hes willing to use force to do it, or is this just an abstract goal over the horizon. The analogy is like taiwan and main land china. Taiwan is something beijing talks about all the time and they aspire to reunify the country but theyre not willing to take steps tomorrow to do it. Thats gives the u. S. Reasons to deal with china and can be more comfortable. Same question with north korea. If kim jong un is in the broader sense still committed to reunification, thats okay. The South Koreans want unification as well but the u. S. Will not relinquish support for south korea by removing troops or removing itself from that alliance, so they have to be tting themselves up for the day when they discover north korea sought to reinvade south korea. I think the view broadly felt is he is probably most likely looking for selfdefense here. He is not looking for the conditions by which he could reinvade south korea middle east and that means there may be opportunity to come up with an accommodation. Rose you say in the second part of the quote that i began, we simply dont know how kim jong un really regards the use of his countrys Nuclear Arsenal or how north koreas seclusion and mythology distorted its understanding of american resolve. We dont know whether kim jong un is taking even greater risks because he is determined to fulfill his familys dream of retaking south korea or because he is afraid of ending up like gadhafi. We do not know. And that was one of the Amazing Things about being there, to be honest, is that you get a sense everywhere you go that they are thinking and talking about their weaponry. Its on every billboard, its on the television when youre watching it at lunch. Government officials mention it to you constantly. They say we have now achieved the ability to meet the United States head to head, toe to toe, if we need to. And what that means is that we need to understand now, ultimately, what are they prepared to do . Are they actually going to press the button . The answer from my impression, from being there and talking to a range of government officials is they have no illusions, they dont believe that they could get into a war with the United States and ultimately survive it, but they are scared at the moment. Frankly, they are disconcerted by the fact that the u. S. President is talking about fire and fury. Theyre confused by the number of voices coming out of washington. They hear general mattis, they hear National Security advisor h. R. Mcmaster, they hear Rex Tillerson and they hear from donald trump, and theyre not sure whether the United States is actually preparing a preventative war. The risk here is if north korea gets the impression that the u. S. Is prepared to attack, then north korea may in fact do something that would be hugely selfdestructive but also could take a lot of lives elsewhere. So its important for the u. S. To send a clear message that thats not our goal that were not seeking to attack north korea if it can be avoided. Rose i havent mentioned it, but its ever present, the ep up they could persuadewould north korea, at least to freeze their Nuclear Program if not do Something Else that would reduce the fear of the United States. I think chinas position on this is evolving slowly but in important ways. As you know, they have been very reluctant to do anything. They have been reluctant to put pressure on pyongyang. They are afraid of collapsing the regime. They dont want north Korean Refugees coming over the border and they dont want american troops taking over the Korean Peninsula in the event of a collapsed state. Rose evan osnos, thank you so much. My pleasure, charlie. Rose back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose apples widely anticipate event took place today in california. Apple unveiled new models for the iphone 8 and 8 and introduced the iphone 10, marks the anniversary of apples original iphone launch and will sell for 1,000. The first iphone revolutionized a decade of technology and changed the world in the process. Now, ten years later, it is only fitting that we are here in this place on this day to reveal a product that will set the path for technology for the next decade. Rose the screen display uses facial Recognition Software to unlock. Introduced apple wide series 3. Steven levy editorinchief of backchannel, Henry Blodget c. E. O. Of business insider, emily chang of bloombert technology. Emily, set the scene. It was pretty powerful. You can see the steve jobs theater bind me and the site is breath taking. Multistory glass walls, spening elevators, you walk four stories deep into the theater itself and they open todays presentation with the voice of steve jobs, they played an audio recording of steve talking about what it means to make wonderful products and share them with the world, share them with humanity. His wife was in the audience and then tim cook came on stage and took a moment to remember steve. He actually got a little choked up, he got a little bit emotional talking about how he misses steve every day but he said today is not just a day to look back at steve but today is perhaps the first day we can start thinking about steve with happen necessary. This is the beginning of a new decade, a new generation of technology for apple, for the iphone, so some very poignant words from tim cook inside the steve jobs theater today. Rose do you see it as the beginning of something new . I think the moment is such and i think what it is is a substantial upgrade to the phone which is probably the most popular product of this century, that iphone, its transformed the company there. Rose the Richest Company in the world. Right. But i would stop short of saying its a transformational product, you know, to switch it. Its not a drastic change from what it is and its going to be better to use, a bigger screen, a sharper screen, its got the face recognition, other things we can talk about. Its going to have a better battery life. Its the iphone. Its still not drastically different than the ones that came before. Its a pretty good upgrade. Rose what do you think . Steves right. It is an incremental upgrade. A lot of people will buy it. Its going to be a spectacular phone. Its basically a bodily app pen damage at this point. That much of a price increase, a lot of people will say its worth it to have the latest. Rose it will not deter, the price. Some. One of the key points of apple is they have a wonderful range of option in the iphone. You can spend 400 to 1,000 depending on what youre getting and if you get the big full featured version its probably more than that. So you have a good range of price points and an offering for a lot of the market, what tim was talking about and steve and the reference to the next generation, apple campus was a spectacular designed when they unveiled it and the theater is amazing. Earlier this year i did a big story for wired about the campus and got tours from tim cook and johnny ive and i was really struck by how much they referred to stephen there. For the last few years they have been trying to avoid saying what would steve have done and this is something steve would have loved. Rose steve told tim cook you should not ask yourself consistently what would i have done. You are on your own. With the campus they made it an exception in part because the last couple of years of his life steve spent a lot of time working on this campus so they were going from his plans in great part and he handed it over to johnny. Rose thats different than saying what would steve have done. Its one thing to remember and to live in the building that he visualized, its another thing to simply constantly second guess yourself and say what would steve done. The products, they havent done that. Some people wish they had in some of them. Were still waiting for the first big totally new products from apple. I know there are some in the works maybe we could talk about. Rose definitely want to talk about that. Going back to emily about the watch. Theres a new watch and also apple tv. Emily, tell us about that. They unveiled an apple tv settop box compatible with 4k, you need a 4k tv to use it. A small number of people do. They demonstrated some of the 4k on the screen, it is much crisper. They talked about the apple watch. We had an analyst on the show earlier who said he thinks the apple watch is a sleeper hit. They played up the healthcare features of the apple watch. There is the fitness tracking features and now you can buy it untethered which means you can use it even if you dont have your phone along with you. I think there is an interesting irony in here you were talking earlier about the meaning of doing this at the steve jobs campus, closing the chapter on steve versus opening a new one, there is a bit of an irony in that this is an end of an era, a fresh start for apple, a brandnew campus, and weve seen tim cook increasingly coming forward and putting a stamp on the company. Rose what should apple worry about . I thini think tims done a spectacular job. Hes had the toughest act to follow in following a chief executive. Everybody says wheres the next iphone . They havent innovated. The iphone is a unique product in that its a huge impact on the world, profitability. The idea apple would pull another rabbit out of the hat like that is dreaming and they have innovated. The watch, the Services Business is growing very rapidly. I think the companys done amazing by well under tim and deserves a huge amount of credit. Rose do they need another technological breakthrough like the iphone is this. Do they need it . I think this is an extremely healthy company. The Smartphone Market is maturing so folks will stop looking for big growth there. If you look at the Services Business, its growing rapidly, the watch is growing. Its a very healthy company. Theres a lot to do. Steve said he knows whats coming next. Looking forward to hearing that. I dont know, you can see the signs of where theyre going from some of the products on the periphery here. You know, one thing that was very striking there, i think one of the more impressive parts of the key note today which had a lot of really great stuff, i loved the idea of using the watch without the iphone, was the augmented reality of the products. Rose tim cook talks about it all the time. And i think thats not an accident. I think they built this platform for augmented reality, and i think where the next wave is going to be, you know the thing that comes after the smartphone is probably a quiet race thats already happening with some diligence within not only apple but amazon, facebook, other companies, certainly google, is you know, sort of make the phone really disappear. Johnny ive and his little video thing said with this fullscreen of the phone, the iphone 10, weve made it disappear, but i think the next step is literally making it disappear and having some sort of augmented reality glasses that brings computing really just an inch from your eye and all these companies have patents on this now. Rose emily, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, steve. Great to see you. Great to be here. Thank you, charlie. Rose well be right back. Stay with us. Rose we continue with part two of my conversation with steve bannon former white house chief strategist and chairman of breitbart news. The first part of the conversation was yesterday. I begin with the definition of populism. Populism is antielitism, its anticrony capitalism. It is basically the voice of the people in this country saying there is a corrupt permanent Political Class in washington, d. C. , inextricably linked to the financ financiersn wall street, the hightech community in Silicon Valley and hollywood that rule us and rule us despite what we want to happen. Committed basically hate crime in standing aside and seeing the industrialbased and Manufacturing Base of this country be exported overseas, to see a rising middle class in asia at the expense of the working class people in this country. Populism is basically antielite. What this movement and what donald trump is able to galvanize is what i call jacksonian populism which is concerned about an elite washington, d. C. With hamiltonian nationalism, the two great forces of the 19t 19th century politics have been combined in this modern movement. Were antielite. The elites are incompetent. If they were so smart we would be in a better situation. Theyre incompetent. Brexit and 2016 are extricably linked. I started breitbart because i saw firage. I sawed we have to get a group that covers that like breitbart covers politics because well understand the evolution of the tea party. Rose what about le pen in france lost . No doubt when you look around the world, the waves are populism and nationalism. The question before us in the United States and in europe is it going to be a left wing more socialist populism or a center right or right wing populism . Le pen is culturally a right winger but economically shes for state control. Shes virtually a socialist, a very garbled message. Not clear at all. Shes all for state control, for state to take over certain industries. Different than a center right coalition. What we have here in the United States now where you see over there jeremy corbyn, versus the tories. The antipopulism you see in the Bernie Sanders voters by the way in key districts, 15 to 16 of sanders voters voted for trump because theyre economic nationalists rose they were voting for change. Let me just talk about the three basic components of the movement. Number one, hes going to stop mass illegal immigration and cut back dramatically legal immigration. Number two, hes going to bring manufacturing jobs back to the United States. Number three, hes going to get us out of these pointless foreign wars. Thats the three basic touch stones of the Trump Movement and trumpism. There is all kind of stuff underneath there, building the wall and all kind of stuff underneath, but thats the three broad categories. If you go back to the speeches you see it time and again, Stephen Miller would put that in the speeches and thats the change people want. J. D. Vans was over here. He said, i just wrote a study, i think there is a harvard professor, a direct correlation between the factories that moved to china and the manufacturing jobs and the Opioid Crisis down to the congressional district. Theres a correlation. They understand bringing back the manufacturing jobs is very important and trump articulated that. Rose you win the election. People who you thought might join the cabinet didnt. One important thing at the beginning of the transition. The next morning after the win, theres a very important decision made and that is we put a coalition together to wean Reince Priebus the r. N. C. , the establishment, paul ryan and people came in and out as there were heated moments in the campaign. Ryan was on the last weekend of the campaign waved us off coming to wisconsin. He said youre off three or four months, this will be a waste of time. We went to minnesota and lost by one. Three hours before we won, there was a fundamental decision, you might call it the original sin of the administration for people on the right, and you saw it in the acceptance speech when reince was given the v. I. P. Treatment, we totally embraced the establishment. I think in President Trump and jared and the familys mind, i actually agreed with the decision. Because you had to staff a government. To be brutally frank i had never been on a campaign in my entire life, im a former investment banker, media guy running a little web site. Our whole campaign was the island of misfit toys. Im wearing my combat jacket, havent shaved, my hair is down to here. Hes thinking ive got to put together a government and staff out something, i need to embrace the establishment and we did. We won in a coalition. The whole thing with obamacare rose i need to govern. And by doing that i need to govern, i need establishment people that are going to help rose if he had chosen romney for secretary of state that would be all right for you . I was the one who recommended romney interview for secretary of state because during the 2012 campaign when mitt romney had the most traction, he was the biggest hawk on china. I wanted him at least have a shot to come in because we looked at a broad range of people. We looked at general kelly for secretary of state. David petraeus, why not get mitt romney in. Let the president see people and do his due diligence. I think people had reservation about loyalty and would he be a team player, but i think first particularly given his angle of attack on china i thought was very smart. Rose Rex Tillerson came in because he was recommended by bob dweats. Tillerson recommended other people for energy, we didnt think he would be interested. Rose Rex Tillerson comes from one of the biggest establishment companies in the world, exxonmobil. He is a guy from texas, though. Rose he gets a pass because hes from texas . No, but he and the president elect spent a lot of time with each other, a very similar outlook in the world on the middle east, russia maybe not so much china but the middle east and russia we thought would be two big hot areas. Rose all of a sudden youre running against washington, the establishment and the people youre choosing to come in. Some are establishment, some very antiestablishment. Lets talk about bringing in establishment figures. You have to stand for government. Maybe you get people the second and third tier, but youve got to coach these people up. There is not a lot of antiestablishment folks who are willing to step up and be prepared to be secretary of state. Rudy is one of the guys rose what was the decision . Rudy did six shows on billy bush sunday, the only person who went. Even the people in the campaign wouldnt go out there. Rudy went out there. Rudy is always a guy whos always going to have your back. Billy bush sunday. Rose you took names on billy bush sunday. I did. Im irish, i have my black book and ive got to get them. Rose if youre not there on billy bush sunday i wont be there for you when your ambition comes up . I always know when a guy like trump runs toward the gunfire you will be in the foxhole. Reince priebus and i were great partners, not just reince personally but it was the donors, and rude yp was there. The president made a decision, okay, and drover is a great guy at weighing and measuring people. He loved rudy but made a decision for what we needed at the time that rudy just wasnt going to be the secretary of state that he donald trump felt he needed, okay . Rose he didnt look like a secretary of state, and that mattered to donald trump. Unit did unit did. I think it did i think for trump its how you comport yourself. We spent a lot of time with rudy being attorney general and secretary of state. Rose he only wanted to be secretary of state. He was very adamant it was state or nothing. Rose and newt . Newt could have had the pick of things, too, and newt was very upfront at the time. Ive got more to do for you guys on the outside than the inside. He came to us right away and said i dont want to be inside. Newt could have had his pick of what he wanted, also. Sessions, newt, rudy, the guys have been there all the time. General flynn, those guys could have had and thats why general flynn was selected. Jared came in right afterwards and we talked and the president wanted general flynn right out of the box so general flynn was selected right away. General flynn, rudy, attorney general sessions, et cetera, christie, because of billy bush weekend was not looked at for a cabinet position. Rose he wasnt at billy bush weekend so therefore he doesnt get a cabinet position is this. I told him the plane leaves at 11 00 in the morning, if youre on the plane, youre on the team. Didnt make the plane. That was on saturday, told him. Plane leaves at eleven. Those on the team are going to be on the plane. Were going to st. Louis. Rudy was on the plane, governor christie wasnt. All that about kushner, firing him, not true, everything ive heard said about governor christie is positive. The thing about Jared Kushner put the knife in him, purely performance. I like governor christie. He has tremendous attributes. On the last debate, he was the guy who prepped. He came back and worked but billy bush stuck in my mind. Rose january 20, you take office. What did you want the president to do in that inaugural speech . That speech, donald trump worked on that speech in maralago. That speech is a very populist and economic national speech. Its a forceful speech. I believe its forceful in a way of more refined rhetoric than his acceptance speech at the convention, but a powerful speech. What we try to do in structure rose nobody had heard an inaugural speech like that ever. Thats why i think it was so powerful. It laid out what trump won and what trump was going to do. We took the structure of lincolns second inaugural which he builds to a climax and then word came. He goes up to all the things that led up to the civil war. He structured it as President Trump with us running things. Now arrives the hour of action. Rose a call to arms. A call to arms. Rose what that speech was. 100 . He worked on that speech more than any speech hes ever worked on. One it regulation after another on the american carnage line. The only thing i said at the time, i just wish stephen and i the night before because it was going to rain we spent into the wee hours to have the night making sure the teleprompters were working, so were out there in the beautiful setting on a chilly night while its triesling and getting ready for it and i told stephen at the time i said if only we could turn the podium backwards and face the perimeter local class. We should turn it around rose to face the capitol. Youre basically like an Old Testament prophet. Youre laying out the bill of indictment as how youre the new agent of change and youre the new sheriff in town. I thought it was very powerful. Rose lets talk about the new sheriff and what he wanted to do. What was the highest priority for this president . To get the economy going. The economy, immigration. Lets talk about economic nationalism. We can see now in august of what he did with enforcement of the immigration laws and his whole effort to talk about how hes going to put up tariffs, quotas, a new day in america, you must invest in this country, were bringing manufacturing jobs back. Were in early september, right . Economic growth is at 3 . No tax cut. In fact, if you read the press we dont even know if well get tax cut. Thats in the future. He has 3 Economic Growth today, okay. He has lowest hispanic unemployment in 11 years, lowest black unemployment in 16 years, lowest unemployment overall in 17 years. Wages, agriculture, at the lowest level, wages in construction lowest level on the rise. Seeing wage increases. Thats economic nationalism. Its controlling illegal immigration and letting the world know that if you want to be in business you have to come to the United States. Business investment up 10 . This is rose america was built america was in the eyes of so many people, an its what people respect america for, it is people have been able to come here, find a place, contribute to the economy, thats what immigration has been in america. And you seem to want to turn it around and stop it. You couldnt be more dead wrong. America was built on her citizens. Rose it began america was built on her citizens. Rose were all immigrant. This is the thing of the leftist. Charlie, thats beneath you. Americas built on our citizens. Look at the 19th century. What built america is called the american system from hamilton to polk to henry clay to lincoln to the roos vellets. A system of protection of our manufacturing, Financial System that lends to manufacturers, okay, and the control of our borders, the american system now. Its mott that were not antiimmigration. In fact, donald trump works with tom cotton and senator purdue to come up with the raise act that shows you what we want is an immigration system that benefits america, thats meritbased that can assist and help america and its industry. Its not were antiimmigration. Were for citizens of the country, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual preference. The people who have been eviscerated by illegal immigration have been hispanic and black working class in this countryccountry. Thats the power of trump and his campaign. Trade and illegal immigration are two sides of the same coin crushing the worker. The trade deals just bring the power of cheap International Labor from its point of origin. Illegal immigration is just bringing that foreign labor to the United States. Its both crushing pressure on the working class in this country. By the way, thats irrefutable. Bernie sanders, back in the old days, was the biggest guy about stopping illegal immigration, so are the labor unions. Thats why the rank and file vote for donald trump so overwhelmingly. Its quite simple what the problem is. By the way, thats what we support. I tell you what we dont support, h1b visas. In the country you have the grammar school, everything is on a stem program, science technology, engineering and math. Weve done away with history, art and culture because all kids have to be stem kids but they cant get engineering schools and cant get jobs . Silicon valley. Silicon valley wants to bring in foreign labor from asia to compete unfairly. Why is that . Were not going to solve the problem in this country until we have black and hispanic kids in Silicon Valley and in the engineering schools. We have hundreds of thousands of kids from india and china in our engineering and Computer Science schools and you wont solve that till you open those things up to american citizens. Rose people have come here and made huge contributions to our economy, technology and science, and you dont want them to stay . I didnt say that. I said we have to do this first off, should we have 1. 1 or 1. 2 Million Immigrants every year . How did that number get picked . Weve done it every year since 1964 when it was passed. We want a merit obesed system so those people who can contribute in a meaningful way always will be able to come here. But we have citizens in this country that have to be taken care of and thats the promise of donald trump. Im looking for you as a citizen, youre american citizen who youre hispanic, black, jewish, evangelical christian, whatever your sexual preference, you are an american citizen and i will defend your right to the job first. Rose lets go down the list of things donald trump wanted. He wanted to do away with obamacare. Repeal an and replace. Didnt happen. The very first meet wetion had with the republican establishment, here was the plan that was laid out. A threepart program. Theyd take obamacare the repeal and replace. We would take the taxes phase two, the tax reform, and then we would take infrastructure would be phase three. People said why didnt you start with infrastructure first stew because you would have democrats involved. Infrastructure is complex. Rose postponed that till 2018 . No, let me tell you the worst thing, worse than that. The plan was to do obamacare because, remember, paul ryan and these guys came in and said weve done this for seven years. Weve voted on this 50 times. We understand this issue better than anybody. We know how to repeal and we know how to replace and this is ours. Thats what well start with day one and well have something on your desk by easter break. Come back from easter and all the way to the august break, taxes. Come back from the summer break on labor day and drive home to the end of the year on infrastructure. We patricia all three big legislative goals in the first year. Rose this is what the leadership in the house and senate told you. And we agreed on. That was the deal. Rose youre blaming them for all of this . Im not blaming them for all of this. What im saying is a statement of fact they were going to take repeal and replace obamacare. Theyre the first to admit there is wide dissension inside the republican caucus. They couldnt even repeal it in june in the senate, they only had 41 votes. There is wide discrepancy in the Republican Party as we know today. Leadership didnt know it at the time or till the very end. Obamacare, something is being worked on by Lindsey Graham and Rick Santorum modeled on welfare reform which is the highest probability and probably one last shot we have to fix obamacare. Rose have we come to it where the choice is simply to fix obamacare . I think the choice will be you wont totally repeal it. I think the taxes and some of the other things will stay in place. I dont think there is an alternative, at least the one rick snow and others with working on that you will get a wall repeal of obamacare. You will still have some of the architecture. You will have the taxes. Thats just reality. That was not taut of by the republican establishment. They told us this has been our number one issue against obama is obamacare. We have tom price, he should be your secretary of h. H. S. Because hes the intellectual leader of the effort. You can see from the debate, from what was happening every day that the republicans themselves tid not have their hands around this issue. Rose its not looked as your baby. What happened . What do you mean what happened . Travel ban is successful. I think the Supreme Court will uphold the key parts of it in the fall. Rose could it have been drafted better . In fact, President Trump likes the original draft. You have to remember something, to go through an interagency process you have to have an executive order. By the way, the Mainstream Media knows this. You have to have the office of Legal Counsel or the department of justice sign this. We had interagency process, started in the transition period. We had the enforcement of the deportation. These e. O. S were fully vetted. General kelly said on public testimony they were fully on board to do it. Were there a couple of wrinkles . Yeah, but you know what he found out . Its about extreme vetting. Its about extreme vetting. We have found out, we didnt know a whole lot about how you actually vet people that come into this country. I think the travel ban has been enormously successful and the key parts of it will be upheld in the Supreme Court. Rose it is said or you at least have said when you say the number of people lining up at the airports being detained because they couldnt get in because of the travel ban on the first day that you said that was a very successful optic. I did not say that. I said something quite different. Not about the people and, by the way, that was administrative confusion and for the people coming in, clearly, you dont want people that, you know, should have come in to be have neg that would delay their trip. What i ethought was a good optic was the resistance, the resistance started that weekend. The resistance is going to keep the house of representatives in republican hands. The resistants was so over the top, so insane. The resistance, on Joe Scarborough every morning what hay talk about like in georgia, they say if you had a chamber of commerce, churchgoing, Little League coach, entrepreneur running in these things against republicans theyd win by 20 points. They would, okay. Ess what . Uld be very eyre not going to be democratic candidates. You know why . The resistance. The best, was it ossof in georgia . Thats the resistance. The resistance will force people in primaries to the left. What occurred which we didnt think of is the resistance. The resistance is so outside the american mainstream, they are so over the top, they will drive the Democratic Party exactly where they shouldnt go, which is they should go more to the middle, they should go to more economic nationalism and populism, and the resistance will stop that and thats why youre not going to have competitive candidates. Rose you believe the democrats are talking about simply being antitrump rather than being pro economic. Rose the smart ones, the time ryans, sharrod browns, theyre talking about the economic issues. But most of the democrats are so it goes back to theyre trying to destroy trump. President trump triggers triggers the left, and they cant handle it rationally, okay . So as long as they cant handle it rationally, theyre not going to defeat him. Rose why is he at 30something Approval Rating . I think hes at 36 or 38 because we havent gotten the wall built, we havent done if you just go through and do the Trump Program he laid out and punch os things out, you will be fine. Rose there is talk you may not try to undo the iran nuclear deal. Decert fysome. I wouldnt bet on that. Rose but talk about it. Definitely talk. The apparatus wants him to certify. President trump wants to make a better teal or view it from the outside. Rose have you cleaned the swamp . First off, okay, the swamp is 50 years in the making. Lets talk about the swamp. The swamp is a business model, a successful business model. Its a donorconsultantk street lobbyistpolitician seven of the wealthiest counties in america ran washington, d. C. , for the first time in history the per capita income in those places are higher than Silicon Valley. The permanent Political Class as represented by both parties. This is not people still think in a leftright continuum, a republican and democrat con continuum, when you think that way youre not seeing the real story. The real story is economic nationalism and populism on the left and the right versus a permanent Political Class which Hillary Clinton represented. That swamp, youre not going to drain that in eight months or in two terms. This is going to take ten, 15, 20 years of relentlessly going after it. Trump in his first eight months has done i think amazingly. He pored the people who work for him rose your takeaway on the Trump Administration so far is what . Is that its hammering through what hes trying to hammer through to deliver on the promises President Trump made to the American People when he campaigned and if he continues to just go down that path and punch out those promises he made, were going to win in 18 and pick up six or seven senate seats, i think well pick up a couple of seats in the house and win in a landslide in 2020. Rose 2018, youre not worried about losing the house or the senate . Im worried about losing the house because of tacka. The whole situation over daca in the last 2448 hours, the whole issue of amnesty was put to bed in 2013 in the great civil war that occurred in that summer in the Republican Party. The predicate of Donald Trumps wenning of the nomination winning of the nomination was that issue of amnesty. When he beat 16 people, that was the creeme de la creeme of a generation of republican politicians. You had Chris Christie and marco rubio and ted cruz and rand paul and jeb bush, this was the best of the best. I think its the best field thats ever been and trump beat them. The run, he was so different on immigration and trade but particularly on immigration. So that got that, to me absolutely sealed it. Amnesty is nonnegotiable in the Republican Party. The gang of aircrafts marco rubio, marco rubio made a bet, the New York Times reported it, the dinner he had with rupert murdoch, roger ailes, schiewmer in 213, same Time Sessions met here, they had the thing about taking the autopsy and building a gabbing of 8 and roll it out many summer of 2013, marco rubio made a bet that would make him president of the United States and he was wrong. Amnesty has been nonnegotiable in the Republican Party and my fear is with the six months downrange, if this goes down to its logical conclusion in february, march, it will be a civil war inside the Republican Party that will be as vitriolic as 2013. To me, doing that in the spring board of primary season for 2018 is extremely unwise. You have the ability right now to pick up five or six seats in the senate and in the red states. You have the ability, i think, to hold the housend maybe you pick up a couple. By the way, guys are down those districts that republican congressmen won, that Hillary Clinton won, if you look on the generic ballot, theyre down ten point. I admit that. But once you put the candidate up, once you put the resistance candidate up and thats what youre going to get, the ing to give you a resistancesthe candidate, those republicans will beat them every time. I feel confident until daca and i think its a huge problem. Rose the president made the wrong decision . I think rose you wanted him to go full bore. I think what we have to do is focus on the american citizens. I think we have to focus on american citizens. Rose what would you do with the people who came here he saw rose tell me what you would do. As the work permits run out, they selfdeport. Rose selfdeport. Yes. Rose thats being deported. I am absolutely rose if they dont selfdeport, you will deport them . I absolutely and breitbart and others are there is no path to citizenship, green card or amnesty. Amnesty is nonnegotiable. Rose youve said that. Got your deal on climate, president withdrew from paris, pleased you. Only a start, hasnt withdrawn from the substrate of paris, the other agreements that i think he ought to withdraw from. Rose you think he should do that . Absolutely, no doubt. Rose you dont think it hurt the countrys reputation some. Absolutely not. I think thats ridiculous and silly. Thats all the party dabblers talking to themselves. You read the Financial Times and take it as holy where it. Rose who does . All the elites. Your question right there, no. That deal was terrible for the United States of america. Rose people within your own party people in our own party by the way, people in our party disagree with a lot of by the way, that the why there is a new party forming inside the Republican Party, a populous and more economic nationalist. There are plenty of globalists inside the Republican Party. Rose for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Todays show is all about switching things up. So instead of cooking a chicken in a very hot oven, were going to take a tip from canton in china, and were going to use simmering water with some ginger and scallions. It makes great homemade chicken stock, and you also end up with perfectly cooked chicken every time. And then were going to go visit our friend Fuchsia Dunlop in london. Shes the author of every grain of rice. And shes going to give us some cooking tips from szechuan, including flashcooked greens with chilies, scallions and ginger