Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

Starts now. Welcome, everyone. Its a special twohour edition of the beat. Im ari melber. This is the second day of convicted former trump lawyer Michael Cohen testifying. Inside the courtroom where cohen was speaking against his former boss and by the afternoon the defense started their crossexamination. Weve been reporting on that. Heres how its been going. Another pivotal day in Donald Trumps criminal trial in new york. The prosecutions star witness Michael Cohen back on the stand. Trumps former fixer Michael Cohen taking the stand for a second day of testimony. Its a whole new game this afternoon. This is the moment weve been waiting for, the crossexamination. The burning question, will cohen keep his cool when trumps lawyers begin an intense crossexamination. Its been an explosive last hour of testimony. Its getting testy. Michael cohen is 45 minutes now into todd blanches cross. Donald trumps attorneys attempted to shred the thats some of what down today. Prosecutors have confirmed something new. Cohen is their last witness, which means theyre on track to rest their case because theyll just be this crossexam and then thats it. Cohen was very clear today. He continued along the lines that made yesterday such a damaging day for defendant trump. The testimony that says these payments at the heart of the case were made because of Trumps Campaign. He made the payment to daniels to ensure the story wouldnt come out. When they asked if not for the campaign, would you have paid the money . Cohen said, no. Prosecutors also said on whose direction did you commit that crime . Notice the word crime. Theyre getting that in front of the jury, the idea that cohen was the key part and admitting this crime with his then client donald trump. He said, on behalf of mr. Trump. Thats the heart of this case. Cohen bolstering the d. A. s theory it was done for the campaign, meaning there was a Business Fraud crime of lying about it and the Second Campaign crime. Thats the theory. I mentioned the cross. Well get to that later in the hour. Theres some interesting stuff in the cross. I was sitting there watching them going back and forth, the expletives flying. Whats probably the most important thing we saw in this trial was what happened yesterday and the beginning of today, which is how cohen is walking through exactly what they say is this trump crime. Cohen addressed the issue that will come up later in cross, he addressed it in a more friendlier avenue where he retracted the 2018 claims where he said he made the payments on his own. Today he said he lied then because he was in the business of protecting trump to stay on message to demonstrate continued loyalty. Cohen admitting trump approved the statement. You can see it right there. He approved it in substance. He also recounts a conversation with trump after the feds searched cohens office. He describes how trump said, dont worry, im the president , theres nothing here, everythings going to be okay. Stay tough. Youre going to be okay. Thats how he recounts it. What you dont hear is donald trump saying, i got you, ill pardon you. Ill take any blowback for that because trump never made that move. Cohen also discussed the messaging he was receiving. Trump also speaking in public at the time, testifying that trump wanted him to stay in the fold, to stay loyal. I have you. Youre a fine person. Dont flip. Thats what cohen understood trumps remarks to me. At first cohen did not flip. Then he did. This is one of those days in the court where you could see both sides of the case and the argument. There was damaging material from cohen and a logical explanation of how he went from having this close relationship with donald trump and working for him to the things, the tangible things he went through that made that relationship sour. Thats a shift this juror any group of human beings could understand. People heard about warm relationships, personal and professional, that sour. There was in the cross a lot of questions about whether thats the whole story or whether in some way Michael Cohen can be trusted . Is he credible because he changed his testimony . There was references to what he did in the media, to his conversations with his lawyer lanny davis, to conversation with other people. We have our special coverage tonight. Our guest is lanny davis, cohens former Legal Adviser. Were back together in just 90 seconds. We got nothing to worry about. With e trade from morgan stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. Dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. 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The most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the Injection Site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. Shingles doesnt care. But shingrix protects. Ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. I see now that my ambition and the intoxication of trump power had much to do with the bad decisions in part that i made. To our nation, i am sorry for actively working to hide from you the truth about mr. Trump when you needed it most. Michael cohen, that was testifying in congress in 2019. He struck some of the same notes today as he explained his evolution. Im joined by someone who was mentioned in the crossexamination of Michael Cohen, lanny davis, a former Legal Adviser who served as Special Counsel for then president clinton. Welcome back. Thank you. Anything you want to address given your name was cited by trumps lawyers, in your dealings with this investigation . First of all, theres a diversion, distraction as a technique of the crossexamination, even mentioning my name is a distraction. Theres two issues the jury is going to decide in the jury room. I respect whatever decision they come up with. One is was this contribution politically motivated, even if primarily or in part. That maybes it a crime. The judge will so instruct. Theres been almost no evidence he was worried about Melania Trump and theres been substantial evidence that it was motivated from the campaign from david pecker, from hope hicks, from almost everyone. Thats not a close call to me. There is disagreement on that and thats up to the jury. The next will the Circumstantial Evidence donald trump, as a sitting president of the United States wrote checks for 35,000 signed from his personal checking account. Thats an issue whether he therefore has responsibility for falsely claiming that when you round up all the numbers including the 130,000 of hush money to 420,000 and divide by 12, there was no possibility that that was for legal services. It was reimbursement as rudy giuliani, trumps own lawyer, called it. Thats the second issue. Was there Legal Expenses and did trump know they were falsely booked . He doesnt have to be there to write the number. The jury can use its logic to say yes, it was falsely booked because he miscalled them Legal Expenses. You dont take a round number and divide by 12. Thats what the case is about. Whatever the cross does is attacking michael as a liar, he lied for donald trump no excuses. He said im ashamed. I was sitting behind him and thats what he said to me which convinced me to help him. They suggested that you tried working with the d. A. To get him to do less tv during the trial. You and i spoke about that back in the day. That is the case as we understand it, right . There was encouragement to do less public statements and he ultimately decided to do them anyway. Im not going to talk about my advice to michael. Ive resigned as his attorney, but i cant reveal that. I can tell you even on the night the last time we talked was mothers day dinner, sorry, everyone, i did take a call from michael. We talked about that subject and he expressed recognition that its not a great idea in the middle of the trial, especially when theres a gag order. Hes not the same as an indicted defendant attacking the jurors, but he did recognize and i can say it wont happen again. Stay with me. We have special coverage. Reverend sharpton is here, joyce vance, molly from vanity fair. Rev, we know Michael Cohen. Im curious up to this point hes remained calm, even steven. It was the calmest ive ever seen him. Ive been impressed at how calm he has maintained. Ive known michael a few years. Ive talked to him a lot since he had this problem. As you know, he called me and said, i want you to pray with me. We met at the regency for breakfast and had prayer. Youll pray with anyone. Im supposed to. He can be volatile. Thats fair. For him to be as calm as hes been, i think he really is seer serious about doing what hes doing. One of the things that impressed me i had prayer with him and he asked me to stay in touch with his son when he went to jail. Ive talked to a lot of people. I really think hes trying to redeem what he thinks he did wrong. Im convinced of that. Part of that redemption is hes not going to do something that would undermine what hes trying to testify to downtown. I really believe that. Lanny, how about that . We dont mean it in a sort of a certain way, Real Housewives or house husbands way, but in a legal sense it matters how he comes off to the jury. Sometimes like other people in public life with stress and other things he comes off in a different way. Lawrence odonnell said it was a different Michael Cohen. I appreciate reverend al sharpton. Elijah cummings has said the same things. What does it take for a sinner to show contrition and that to be authentic . When michael talked to me about helping him, i called reverend cummings, but it was elijah cummings. I said to michael, the only way youll be believed is under oath live with republicans and there was a sign on the wall when he testified, liar, liar, pants on fire. Can you be contrite, michael . Will you show remorse . Will you say the words, i am ashamed, i am sorry . And you have to mean them. That was the beginning of the representation that i tried to give to Michael All The Way through the night of mothers day dinner two nights ago where he called me and i asked him the same question. If its not from your heart, michael, the jury will not believe you. I think youre seeing a man speak from the heart when he says he shows remorse. Joyce, this is where the law becomes personal. The jury are people and the witnesses are people. Somethings are evidence and facts and other things are, do i believe this person . Very few people can say theyve been 100 truthful 100 of the time about 100 of everything. Cohen has a bigger problem than that. He was untruthful in the investigation. I want to show what the prosecution brought out. They said, well, you continued to lie about trumps involvement . He said, yes. You pressured other people, davidson to lie about the payments to mcdougal. Cohen, yes. Why did you do that . To protect trump. Explain why theyre doing this. Theyre trying to establish a timeline. I think they are. Prosecutors are making sure the jurors hear about any blemishes with their witness. The government has to convince the jury that even though Michael Cohen is imperfect, hes now telling the truth. They have to give the jurors reason to have confidence hes telling the truth. For some witnesses its as simple as they have a deal, if they dont follow up, they go to prison. Michael cohen has already been in prison. It has to be that hes honestly contrite and here to tell the truth, and he did a good job of doing that today. Molly, i want to play what we learned about this in public, which is back to hannity talking to rudy. Its not campaign money. No Campaign Finance violation. They funneled it through the law firm. Funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. Oh, he did . Yeah. Everybody was nervous about this from the beginning. I wasnt. When i heard cohens retainer of 35,000 when he was doing no work for the president , i said thats how hes repaying it with a little profit and margin for paying taxes. Thats what we learned there. We put up the receipts that you have courtesy of the trial. Yeah. Look, there was anxiety about this case because of the Michael Cohen witness situation. What the prosecutors did, which was very smart, it started with david pecker. Michael cohen has become a piece of this. It turns out hes been an excellent witness. Hes kept his cool. Hes done what he needed to do on cross, but the case was expansive and sort of brought in a way that made it really about more than that. They had the documents and had the people saying this was campaign money, this was a donation. Lanny, what did you think about the whole exchange regarding this other lawyer costello whatever he was up to . What would a jury make of that . It seemed to make the people in trumps orbit look bad. Well, yeah, because i was there on the day that he came in and volunteered after the prosecution was finished with the grand jury and he came in and said he wanted to testify before the grand jury. Of course, the Prosecutor Team said, yes. I had to come up from washington. I could use the yiddish Word Schlep Up from washington. We went to the grand jury and waited for the testimony to be over. When it was over, the grand jury said they werent interested in hearing a rebuttal for Michael Cohen. Thats how irrelevant having a lawyer associated with rudy giuliani, who basically agreed to the second half of this case already, oops, he told the truth to hannity. It was reimbursements. It wasnt legal fees. Everybody knows it except the Cross Examiner who is trying to push what mr. Trump said about legal fees. Thats my answer. It wasnt necessary for michael to go back into the grand jury to rebut this individual who volunteered something that didnt ring true to the grand jurors. Rev, the other thing is how much Michael Speaks out. Here he was on this podcast leading up to the start of the trial. We have all been hoping that Merrick Garland would do something, start locking these people up. Somebody would finally hold trump to task. No matter what happens, unless trump is exonerated hes going to scream partisan, witch hunt. Nothing is new when it comes to donald trump. Its a regurj tags of the same thing he was doing at the Trump Organization. Ill give you my reporting. I was sitting in there and they were asking him about this. They were trying to pull these different strands to go at him. They said, why did you do this, michael . When youre sitting in court, you dont know the answer youre going to get. You know what he said, rev . He said, partly to vent. Partly because i cant sleep and partly just these are thoughts i have and im sharing them. Im not saying its a perfect answer. A lot of people in the trial have a need to vent and find other forums. It was interesting because it felt true and it didnt feel like it broke a rule, let alone a law. That was some of what we saw as the day went on, sort of mining the depths of mr. Cohens experience and the jurys going to look at that and decide if they can relate to that or not. Do they think hes telling the truth now or not . You know, it brings to mind the conversations i had with michael. He never tried to get around that he was involved in some wrong. I would say, you know, as a minister, you try to say youre not that bad. He said, no, what i did was shameful, rev. I think his family, he told me, was the one that said how long are you going to go along with this whole thing with trump . When your wife and kid is saying to you, i mean, who are you . It makes you say, you know what, i might as well put it all out there because its how ive been. I was not surprised what i heard he said on the stand today. He wasnt making excuses for him being a participant. I think the way hes trying to redeem himself is by being open. Lanny will get the last word. The way youre putting it, rev, makes me think of the lyric, im trying to right these wrongs. Funny how these wrongs helped me write this song. Lanny, this could be his swan song, wrongs and all. You get the last word. You can include a lyric or not. No lyric. I hate to do anything beyond what the reverend said because it was perfect. Michael cohen for good or bad cant fake it. He is who he is. Hes a man in pain. Hes a man filled with anger, anger towards what trump did to him, anger towards what trump is doing to the country in his opinion. He cant fake it. With me i recognized right away this is a very flawed human being, just as i am, just as the reverend teaches his parishioners. Were all flawed. He is contrite and its why i think the jury will believe him. The liar, liar, pants on fire is a distraction. Its interesting. I didnt know we were going to get this deep. Thank you. We knew we would get a lyric. Thats more predictable. Joyce stays because we have you on a rebuttal to an interesting couple of points we have coming up, including the crossexamination. The rest of the panel, thank you. To the audience, thanks for putting up with me. Its a twohour episode of the beat. Well look at some of the senators that showed up in court today. First, we were talking about the good points cohen made and how he came across on the stand. There was also a back and forth with swearing and expletives and innuendo and we have it all coming up next. Innuendo and we have it all coming up next i have moderate to severe crohns disease. Now, theres skyrizi. Things are looking up, ive got Symptom Relief. Control of my crohns means everything to me. Control is everything to me. Feel significant Symptom Relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less Abdominal Pain and fewer bowel movements. Skyrizi is the first il23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. And the majority of people experienced longlasting remission at one year. 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Driving headlines about his testimony that has basically marked the official finale of this case. Hes the last witness. You can see the check stubs, the fake receipts, the loyalty, the inside knowledge that is now hurting defendant trump. Today the Defense Lawyers got their turn. They began an effort to blunt cohens testimony, undercut his credibility. Attorney todd blanches First Question quoted cohen calling blanche an expletive. It set the combative tone and cohen kept his composure. Hes been preparing for months. If prosecutors fail to convict trump, it will likely turn on this crossexamination of cohen today and thursday because hes not a perfect witness. This is the defenses chance to not just talk about reasonable doubt, but to really raise the doubts in the jurys mind about this star witness and coconspirator. The defense suggested many different doubts. Is cohens story the whole truth . Did he have an unhinged psychodramatic relationship with donald trump . At one point the lawyer asked and cohen acknowledged himself as a cult follower. Is Michael Cohen so bitter, even understandably bitter, that his claims have become unreliable . Can he be trusted, the lawyers asked, if cohen admits publicly that his goal is to see trump convicted in this case . When he was asked about this within the last few hours, he said, sure, yeah, i want the conviction. Heres another question. Does cohen still lie to investigators because hes done that before . Since hes making money off the trump relationship and this very trial, can his testimony be trusted . Then one of the more damaging lines of questioning today, why should the jury trust Michael Cohens fidelity to this trial and its rules and the fair process if he wouldnt even honor basic requests from prosecutors to stop doing the tv and the tiktoks and the social media where he would attack trump up through this very trial . As journalists we welcome these people. We interview them. Legally, i have to tell you thats a fair question. The judge has even rebuked cohen through his lawyers for all of the public statements. Now none of these questions is a deal breaker, but the Defense Lawyers are trying to diminish and liquidate the credbility that cohen has and the prosecutors more linear questions about how he went from loyalist to this star witness. Remember, the jurys not made of highly informed news and politic junkies. Theyre hearing details about cohen that are new to them. The defense harped on cohens shift as if it were suspicious. They suggested through the questioning today that hes a person who will maybe say anything to anybody depending on his personal interests that day and that the government cant possibly hang a case Beyond A Reasonable Doubt on a witness like this to prove a defendants intent about schemes that cohen helped pull off. I know mr. Trump. Ive stood by him shoulder to shoulder for the past decade. Donald cares for no one or anything other than himself. Im obviously very loyal and dedicated to mr. Trump. Im going to jail. I think hes going to be a great president. Because of my decision to help mr. Trump hide that payment. Thats a back and forth that weve all followed. For this jury, a lot of the details are pretty new and might jog a memory here and there. A lot of it is like, whoa. Theyre hearing two competing versions of the same story. One is of course this guy shifted. Who wouldnt . Look what he went through and then went to prison. Now he has every reason to tell the truth. The other story is this guy might have gone to prison for his own reasons, might have ended up in prison anyway. Look how hes acting not then and not after the break, look how hes acting in the next few weeks. Some of this evidence legally is not as important as the secret tapes or financial receipts that defendant trump is facing. It was notable. Inside the courtroom today i saw jurors watching closely as many of them saw, possibly for the first time, how cohens podcast arm he had this podcast and sells this tshirt. This was shown today and admitted into evidence to the jury. This wasnt just a person who has an anger with trump, but hes looking at the presumed innocent former president of the United States stuck behind bars and imagined incarceration all yours for the price of 27. 99 or whatever it was. Other items that cohen sells are admitted into evidence. The lawyer asked cohen about what youre seeing here. I want to be clear, this was referenced. They didnt play this video in court. We pulled it for you. Michael cohen wearing that same jail trump shirt and he did it during the trial on one of his internet live streams. As with Stormy Daniels the lawyers are trying to paint this witness as so vindictive, Bent On Revenge against someone he used to like that maybe you cant take him at his word. Also, we should note some of these questions float theories that dont undercut cohen. They asked how he wanted out of prison early. Most people in prison want out. Cohens monumental flip on trump occurred before he went to federal prison. That line of questioning doesnt get you anywhere. There are other observers who, even with everything i told you, found this lacking, that the lines of attack were all over the place and noting how cohen kept his cool. Today was not a disaster for Michael Cohen or the prosecution. But i would tell you, at least from observing it inside the room and following along, it wasnt good either for them. If this is all fairly new, Hearing Questions about cohen lining and admitting lies and varying levels of memory and if youre a Juror Hearing all that for the first time and hearing how hes hawking the trump jumpsuit merch, that wouldnt be good for any witness, let alone a star witness who is proving intent. Were following this trial together. If later they fail to convict, acquittal or hung jury, you wont be that surprised about the possible reasons why. Im not saying they exploded the case. Today was one of those days where you could see reasonable doubt being built. None of this was a knockout. It can give the jurors the examples, things you can remember, the tshirt to support reasonable doubt, especially if some jurors already had some. My point is not whether thats good or bad news. It would depend on what you think is fair. How you feel about it. Its part of what is happening in this trial. How will trump attorneys continue their crossexamination of this calm version of Michael Cohen . We have a seasoned Defense Attorney who represented trump in the second impeachment. He also represented the Trump Organization in a fraud case. William j. Brennan. Bill, rachel was watching the remarks here last night and mentioned them. Take a look. I was interested in your special coverage today. You had a guest on who was very bullish on the defense and said that, you know, Michael Cohen is going to get destroyed on crossexamination. I walked through some of what they tried to do today. Your thoughts . Good evening. Thanks for having me. You know, its really complicated. When i listened to your last panel, lanny davis is a well respected seasoned member of the bar that i have respect for. Representative cummings was a giant, respected by both sides of the aisle. Reverend sharpton said wonderful things about mr. Cohen. The problem is the jury wont hear that. The jury will just hear theres lie after lie after lie, then a redemption, then more lies and the narrative the prosecution is trying to sell that its all done at the behest of trump falls flat because some of the crimes he pled guilty to, lying to the irs, the bankruptcy court, the things related to the taxes, have nothing to do with trump or the Trump Organization. What if the jury thinks this guy would have wound up in prison anyway . I dont see any other logical deduction thats possible and, you know, this guy really its one thing to have a witness that lies and you work around it, you know, youre the prosecutor and get it out there. This guys like an olympic gold medal winner. Hes a hall of fame liar. Its a lot to work around. When the jury sees that and judge merchan instructs them on this charge which says, if you think he lied on one thing, you can find that he lied on everything. When you package that like the daily double with the merch, the tshirts, the books, hes shopping a reality show as we speak called the fixer, juries are smart. They get it. Its a lot of common sense and life experience. When they see a witness, a polluted source like this that not only is a liar and has skin in the game, hes making money off the defendant, if the defendants convicted, hes likely to make more money, i dont see how they can give his testimony the say it has the ring of truth. From a defense perspective, what did you think they were trying to show with the tshirts and monetizing . Just that. You know, you want a witness to say say its a bank robbery. These are the guys that drove the bank. They drove a gray sedan. The weather was cloudy. Thats it. You dont want someone to say i hate them, i want them to go to jail and for 27. 99 you get to buy my donald trump tshirt. The optics are horrific. The prosecution tried to get ahead of it. Having said that, i have no idea whats going to happen with this trial. I spent a long time in that courtroom with that judge. The jury pool is from the island of manhattan. Its not a Friendly Forum for this defendant. You take this case and put it in pike county, pennsylvania, you have a whole different slew of possibilities. Who knows whats going to happen . Theres no getting around this guy being a polluted source. Forum sourcing is not allowed for a criminal trial. Im not suggesting that. Im saying where this case landed because it had to for venue purposes, its like a roulette wheel. I dont see how thats relevant. Its like saying if Harvey Weinstein were tried in 1815, he would be a model husband. Thats whats wrong with 1815. What im saying to you is where cases are tried its not you dont pick them out of a hat. It had to be manhattan. Im telling you from having tried a trumprelated case in that courtroom with this judge and this prosecution team, most of it, with that particular jury pool, not a great forum for the defendant. Hes got that okay. You made the point. People dont complain about the refs when theyre winning. Good point. Im curious what you thought about the back and forth that didnt quite get there, but what do you think the lawyers are trying to do by saying, werent you instructed not to talk . He never admitted outright defiance, but those were the questions. If he wont honor the d. A. s requests, thats infers something negative. Defendant has violated the gag order 11 times. You cant say much about their credibility just from them being vocal. As a defense strategy, what did you think about that . Blanche spent a considerable amount of time on that. Blanche is a pro. You know, ive seen a lot of reporting the last four or five hours critiquing him. You know, its like these Sports Commentators that want to critique the quarterback in the super bowl. Just sit in your chair and let the quarterbacks do their job. Hes doing what he needs to do. Specifically whats he getting at by saying the d. A. Told you to be quiet and you wouldnt . I think hes getting at that this witness basically does what he wants to do. He flouts the instructions of the court, flouts the instructions of the prosecutors. Michael cohen is all about Michael Cohen. Its going to be a tough sell if they hinge everything on Michael Cohen. Hes a tough witness to believe. Bill, im running over on time. I have a more lighthearted question for you. Are you considering getting one of the tshirts . I dont know if they have my size, ari. Ill have to look. Bill, as i mentioned, Rachel Maddow watched your interview last night. Thats got to mean something. Appreciate your perspective as we try to make sense of it all. Well see what happens. Its a Big Night With Cohen as the last prosecution witness. Theyll rest. Thats not the only take. Joyce vance with her analysis and possible rebuttal to mr. Brennan on the other side. Mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. You know whats brilliant . Boring. Think about it. Boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. 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If you cant afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. Farxiga its time to get away and cache in, at cache creek casino resort, to rock and to roll. To go all out or. Go all in. With four stars and rising stars, northern californias Premier Casino Resort is the perfect place. To do as much or as little as you want. Make your get away now and cache in at cache creek casino resort. Our Trial Coverage continues. We looked at some of the damning statements that Michael Cohen made today. Then later in the hour we heard from a former Trump Defense attorney about how the crossexamination of cohen is going. Now u. S. Attorney joyce vance with us for your response to some of what we heard from bill. Well, look, if the prosecution isnt a little bit unhappy with their witness being crossexamined then the Defense Lawyers arent doing their job. This is their opportunity to go at the witness and they can ask the classic when did you beat your wife style question. They dont have to use the direct questions you have to use on direct. Theoretically they should be scoring points. Both did a great job of making the case for effective crossexamination. I dont agree. I saw nothing here that did lasting damage to Michael Cohen who i think head up far better than expected. What do you think blanche was doing this is a technical question with questions he knew would face objection . His opening question was, mr. Cohen you called me a blank, expletive, the jury heard it and then it was overruled. There was a side bar after that question. We dont know for certain what happened because i havent seen the transcript, but i suspect the judge was not happy with todd for making it personal right off the bat. Thats not your job as a lawyer. It was a real miscalculation for where to start. If it was intended to get under Michael Cohens skin, it didnt do that. What about the monetizing stuff, the merch . I thought it was good. It was effective . It could have been more effective than it was. Tomorrow is a day off. They will recalibrate and come back at michael on thursday. The argument there is a good one. Saying to Michael Cohen, you hate trump, you hate everything thats trump. Of course the prosecutions response when they get to close theyll get to redirect cohen after cross. As aprosecutor, you survive the defense knowing that your time is coming to make everything better. And they will make a very simple point. The prosecution did not select Michael Cohen to be their key witness in this case. Donald trump did. Michael cohens character, thats who donald trump wanted to represent him personally. Yeah. When you put it like that, its really interesting. I think its important because in some sense, talk about the bombshells. Cohen has delivered on those. And hes put context on the bad receipts. But again, as i mentioned, the people want to understand where this is going, what the jury heard today and what they walked out of the room today with was at least questions, wait a minute, about cohen, as you say, might be in the eighth inning but not the bottom of the ninth. Theres redirect, closing, context on all that. Great to have you in more than one block. Good city you. Still ahead, if youre looking for a Vice President , do you want him to come to your trial about paying Off An Adult Film Star . If youre donald trump, the answer is yes. The speaker of,making his first cameo today. Ill be anchoring from 7 00 to 8 00 as well. Stay with us. Wait, theres an elevator . Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. Organic soil from miraclegro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. Good soil, and you get good results. Look at that the broccoli was fantastic. That broccoli i think some of them were six, seven pounds. 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Thats an array of gop hopefuls and figures surrounding the walk in in the back left corner, you can see boris epshteyn, you can see the speaker in the middle, vivek, a whole lot more. Were going to talk about it with Brian Stelter and Chai Komanduri. Also in our next hour of this special coverage, a look into election part of the crime, which is another piece of this that the jury may have questions about. You know they met, theres conflicting tome, but was it about the campaign . Our special hour continues next. Cold water cant clean tough stains . Id say that myth is busted. Turn to cold, with tide. This homestyle Chicken Salad wrap from subway this is how you do it. Savory chicken, crisp veggies all wrapped up these wraps are amazing. People can hear my thoughts . Thats a problem. Stay fresh out there with all new wraps from subway. Were talking about practicing practicing good financial strategy. By cashbackin. Whatd you think i was talking about . Not a game. Not a game. 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Im sensing an underlying issue. Its tmobile. It started when we tried to get him under a new plan. But they they unexpectedly unraveled their price lock guarantee. Which has made him, a bit. Unruly. You called yourself the uncarrier. You sing about price lock on those commercials. the price lock, the price lock. so, if you could change the price, change the name its not a lock, i know a lock. So how can we undo the damage . We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. Welcome back to our special trump Trial Coverage. Joy reid is off tonight. Im ari melber and were covering the law and testimony. I can also tell you from reporting inside the courtroom today and reporting at the courthouse where you see some of what we were discussing with our colleagues, in that building behind me and the surrounding area, there were not just lawyers, jurors, there were also Top Republican politicians. Even more than on other days. Not just trumps defeated primary opponents now seeking a job. Theres one. Also the highest ranking republican in the federal government. Speaking of the house mike johnson there in the middle. Embracing Criminal Defendant Trump in this unusual show of partisanship in the middle of a felony trial. Its an embrace that echoes the loyalist turned wince Michael Cohen himself. That was one of the themes in todays testimony. If this were a movie and they brought in other Top Republicans you would say, come on, tay dont all gather in a new york courtroom, but they did. And they heard, some of them present for it, cohen saying he used to lie for his then boss trump, because he was knee deep in the cult of trump. Now cohen says hes broken out, testifying about trumps hush money payments. Not the kind of thing most candidates want their political peers to revisit and hear in person. Cohen confirming trump directed the payments which was a key moment in this conconventional day. Round two in lower manhattan. The Prosecution Star Witness Michael Cohen is back on the stand. He approved it. Thats the potentially damning testimony of Donald Trumps former fixer, Michael Cohen. Cohen also described the fallout after the fbi raided his properties back in 2018. Michael cohen has testified that hes a liar, admitting he lied to congress, to the government, to the public. Cohen is facing crossexamination. It is sometimes very testy. Its sometimes very flat. Youre not hearing what you usually get from a defense lawyer, which is clear telegraphed themes to a jury. There was a key point that actually hung over trumps political tourists, if you want to call them that today. The republicans and wouldbe Running Mates auditioning at the new York Criminal Court this week here. It is a strange place for veepstakes. But think about it like this. They went and made this trip, many of them taking time away from their Government Duties and other obligations to come all the way to new york do this visit and photo op. Then they hear cohen and other witnesses living the other side of the thing these people want, which is to be tapped or promoted by trump. So they actually inadvertently perhaps witnessed the fate of so many aides and people who have broken with trump in and out of the courtroom, and other observers, and chris hayes, our colleague, discussed this very reality and contrast today. You could end up a witness. You could end up a defendant like trump. You could end up convicted as some of these people are. These are just the lawyers, let alone all the other officials. And so the people competing to be his running mate appear to be in denial about how it goes, how it went for mike pence. Not only politically ruined in the party, but then targeted for assassination and hanging on january 6. So the Courthouse Veepstakes includes people who are saying they want that job. They want to be pence, or frankly, cohen. And theres republicans like jd vance and rick scott, theres other ambitious figures. Conservative congressman Byron Donalds was seen there, vivek, speaker johnson, who is the party leader or perhaps follower in this incarnation of the Republican Party. And thats the photo you see. These individuals feeling like they had to do this, pass this litmus test, or they want to do it because its not enough to just defend trump in public and not enough to say you believe hes innocent, but they had to show up within the criminal trial. And then they waited on a Legal Process with their Talking Points today. I wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. Where is the crime . There is no crime. This is a sham. This is not the United States of america. This is some third rate banana republic. Banana republic . Or bananas . You decide. A especially stark departure for speaker johnson. You can see him spot shadowed as hes nodding along and doing his thing. But the point here isnt whether outside observers are critical of johnson, meaning someone elses view. Our job is to show you and remind you of the fact we have available, and here is johnson as recently as 2015, which was just before trump had more power. He then before all these other things were exposed, even then, had the view that trump lacked the character and moral center needed for the white house. Im afraid he would break more things than he fixed. Hes a hothead by nature and thats a dangerous trait to have in a commander in chief. So we know where johnson was at when he didnt have to Say Something opposite for political or other self interested reasons. The times reports the republicans also have told on themselves. How has trump changed the gop . His Criminal Trial Guest List tells the tale. This is not just normal politics. This is extreme. And you can see the shift with your own eyes. Remember, the tape alone and not Everything Else thats been alleged and sometimes really documented in this trial, the tape alone back then had republicans saying, that was too much. House Speaker Paul Ryan released this statement canceling trumps event. I am sickened by what i heard today. Former republican president ial nominee senator john mccain pulled his endorsement. Mitch mcconnell called trumps comments repugnant and unacceptable. Mitt romney calling his comments vile. Thats what they said then. That tape and that conduct is at the heart of this trial. Not because the tape itself was illegal, but because it was bad enough politically that they went to these extremes to do all these other things to stop the political bleeding. Remember, Conservative Media was in a panic mode because this allegedly was going to hurt trump with voters. Many were just reeling and discussing the facts in a way that they dont really do as often today if it involved donald trump. Back then, even in places you might have gotten used to getting in trouble, places that have had to pay out for defamation and lies, even in some of those places, people on the right were not yet in the habit of saying the sky is red if it helped donald trump. They said what they heard was bad. The Trump Campaign is in full Damage Control mode following a troubling story broken by the Washington Post today. The sheer entitlement that he exhibits where he just feels like hes entitled as a powerful person. That suggests that he feels that, you know, he is entitled to take what he wants. By the way, love that apology. If i have offended anyone, then i apologize. Thats not an actual apology. I think that last nights apology was not heartfelt. I dont think he really meant it. That is a contrast to what many of the same outlets, same types of people are saying in the trial. Its a big contrast, and again, its not to say everyone has to agree on everything. And it doesnt pertain to the fact that legally hes presumed innocent. But a trial of this defendant who insisted on running again and managed to capture the nomination is now a kind of a new low for some figures in the Republican Party. Not because others disagree with them, as im being careful to emphasize, but because it is again putting a spotlight on the facts that they knew better, they opposed this, and the only thing thats changed is a craven pursuit of power and a desire to work for donald trump, which if you attend this trial is a thing you might question whether thats even in your selfinterest. As we look at all of this from the political lens, we move beyond the lawyers, havent we had enough lawyers . We have a fox expert, Brian Stelter, and obama veteran Chai Komanduri when were back, next. Voices of people with cidp cidp disrupts. Cidp derails. Lets be honest. All cidp sucks voices of people with cidp but living with cidp doesnt have to. When you sign up at shiningthroughcidp. Com, youll find inspiration in real patient stories, helpful tips, reliable information, and more. Cidp can be tough. But finding hope just got a little easier. Sign up at shiningthroughcidp. Com. All be heard. Be hopeful. Be you. 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Xfinity mobile just got even better now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. Plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. I gotta get this deal. Thats like 20 a month per unlimited line. I dont want to miss that. Thats amazing doc. Mobile savings are calling. Visit xfinitymobile. Com to learn more. Doc . Its a beautiful. Day to fly. Wooooo a democratic strategist said, why are they all there defending his affair with a porn star . Is that what youre doing . No, not at all. I was there to support a friend. Here we are. We just did a breakdown on the veepstakes moving to the criminal courthouse in new york. And im joined by vanity fair special correspondent Brian Stelter, author of network of lies, has a specialty in this media aspect of what we looked at on the right as well as the republicans, and Chai Komanduri, a veteran of three president ial campaigns including obamas. Starting on the politics, chai, i was careful to mention, of course people can debate this, but one thing the trial is doing is not only putting heat on trump himself, but it draws attention to how many of these people said, in their own adult lives, jd vance, speaker johnson, and others, that they opposed trump for exactly the type of reasons that are on display in the trial. Yeah, but those comments were made before the Republican Party became the cult of personality that it now is. You know, i mean, the analogy never gets old. If you think about it historically, the Republican Party has always been kind of a single issue party. It started out as an antislavery party in the cold war. An anticommunist party. In the 00s, it was an antiterrorism, war on terrorism party. And now the cause, the single cause is donald trump. The person of donald trump, and the Republican Party has been on this path for quite some time. Brian, i saw as i mentioned to viewers because i was covering it, i was down there as many of our colleagues have been, and we have been rotating inside the courtroom, but i saw Vivek Walking around, making a campaign appearance. Heres what he said. I learned a lot from being in there in person. Its one of the most depressing places i have been in my life. Its fitting because the only thing more depressing that the environment in the courtroom is whats happening in there. Its straight out of a kafka novel. Straight out of kafka, straight out of compton, straight out of todays Republican Party. Your thoughts . I cant wait to see the actual reallife movie thats going to be made of this trial. Because today was the stuff of actual drama. And people should see it. Its a shame we dont have cameras. But i do think the republicans suddenly belatedly showing up to support trump is in some ways the most interesting thing that happened today. Where were they for the last few weeks. People are focused on why isnt his family coming . None of his friends showed up until this week. Now theyre all popping up, whether its for the veepstakes or because hes pressuring them to be there, but it is so revealing and so sad about the state of the Republican Party that theyre all belatedly showing up. Did you see what Lisa Murkowski said today . She was asked why arent you going to new york city to be at the trial. She said, dont we have Something Better to do around here than to watch stupid porn trials . And the reality is, ari, no. The gop lawmakers have Nothing Better to do. Than to sit around, taking their Talking Points from fox. Its not that they literally have nothing in the literal sense. When you typically when you campaign, you go places and both of you know, to draw attention to that very place. So you might go to an auto plant to draw attention to that, go to a school to talk about education. Brian, theyre here because they clearly feel they owe trump that, the speaker has to stay in his good graces. The veepstakes is trying to get a job. But why attract attention to the trial . Right. They feel pressure not just from trump but from the protrump media. This is an underappreciated aspect of the story. At the outset of the trial, the far right Media Outlets that trump voters trust tried to ignore the trial. Tried to downplay it. Honestly, i think what happened is the likes of msnbc were taking this seriously. They knew this was a big news story. So those far right outlets have gradually started to take it more seriously. They started to show up. Some of the fox anchors are now showing up in the courtroom. Theres been this very belated realization that they cant just pretend like this is not going on. Instead, heres what theyre doing its a little awkward because i dont want to make it about us. We did look at the media echo chamber. Seated in the trial today, theres plenty of media from the New York Times and the media hosts to the 7 00 p. M. Fox host is there. Its interesting. What do you think, chai, about the fact in politics sometimes as brian said, the first thing is if its a bad storyline, you hope it goes away. You hope not to have to deal with it. You cover your eyes. If its unavoidable, chai, then you deal with it. That might reflect if brian is correct a partial failure on the maga media side. Yeah, i agree, but i think the conventional political wisdom doesnt apply here. Donald trumps psychology applies here. What happened in the first three weeks of his trial is donald trump sat in the courtroom and very much was not in control. He was being mocked as an old man who was falling asleep. He was sitting there raging as witness after witness was testifying against him. He was a man not in control. So all of these republicans showing up, he controls them. He has power over them. It bucks him up psychologically to know that, hey, i dont control this court, but i sure as hell control jd vance, i sure as hell control vivek, i control fox news. All of those things he controls. He needs that psychologically to get through these days now. Now its getting deep, chai, because its sort of like pinocchio needs, is it jipetto . Yes. But does he also need pinocchio . Yeah. Gipetto creates pinocchio because he needs a boy to love him. Fox news needs trump because they need content. Jd vance needs trump because he needs someone to tell him what to think and what to do. Without those things, what is jd vance going to do . Write a Sequel To Hillbilly Elegy . No thanks. He needs direction and guidance. And if he tried to write a Sequel To Hillbilly Elegy, his nose would be growing even further to take the obvious pay off of the analogy. Brian, jd vance was mentioned. Here he was in court along with others outside the courthouse. Take a look. The judge inside, his daughter is making millions of dollars running against donald trump, raising money for Donald Trumps political opponents. The judges own daughter is making millions of dollars doing Online Fundraising for democrats. The judges daughter is a political operative. And raises money for democrats. Now, heres the gipetto of it all, brian. I dont mind overextended an analogy. Its my toxic trait. But the strings are from the defendant who was held in contempt, which is not nothing, over the very words we just played. After he was held in contempt, he did partially back down by not reposting that. He kind of pulled back during the trial. Defendant trump held in contempt for those Scurrilous Attacks on a Family Member of the judge. I can tell you other defendants would be in jail at rikers for that. So gipetto gets the wooden senators to come and repeat the same points that he is now restricted from saying. Yes, hes experimenting, trying to figure out how much he can get away with as the trial rolls on. We should not lose sight of what an aberration this is in american history. Lawmakers used to know better, used to keep their mouths shut when there was a criminal trial going on. Heres the Associated Press lead. The house speaker, quote, is turning his Republican Party against the federal and state Legal Systems that are foundational to the government and cornerstone of democracy. Heres the problem. Heres the problem. One of those fox perments that you showed earlier in the hour, theyre on the air saying this is a show trial that violates the rule of law. Theyre taking all the words that matter and flipping them around into reverse and saying the opposite is true. And we just have to recognize that that mirror world is very much a part of this trial. I want to be i appreciate the points you raise. And i want to be as fair as possible, chai. Members of the press, critics, observers, have every right to question the government and the justice system. And those can be healthy debates. We have had all kinds of debates about how it works and whats fair or not. I think they should hopefully happen through evidence and facts, but that can happen. There is Something Different that brian also alluded to which is members of the government, the a. P. Headline saying this is the speaker of the house. Members of the government without evidence undermining the very government theyre a part of, chai. If they do that with the rule of law and they do that with trials and they do that with, oh, the fbi is bad if it searches your friend home, searching maralago, and then they do it with elections, were seeing the autocratic playbook where this becomes normalized, and everyone says oh, being a member of the Republican Party or being a quote, conservative, whatever it means to them, now involves listening to people in Government Turning you against the government and undermining all of its basic premises, which long term will also hurt them. They may not see it that way. Chai, i give you that big thought on the autocratic problem, along with a chaser of Mitch Mcconnell assuring everyone how this would work out. This is from 16. Donald trump is not going to change what i think. Hes not going to change the platform of the Republican Party, the views of the Republican Party. I think were much more likely to change him because if he is president , hes going to have to deal within sort of the right of center world, which is where most of us are. Chai. Well, nothing in that statement from Mitch Mcconnell remotely came true. All the opposite occurred. Donald trump transformed the party in his own image. Thats another reason why i think all of these republicans are there. Theyre there to bask in trumps celebrity as much as Anything Else. Because the party is about his celebrity. The one hopeful note i will say about this election is when its over, and if trump is defeated, trump and this maga movement, i cant see it going on because nobody else has this cult of personality. Nobody else would be able to command this kind of following. Do you think ron desantis would have people show up at his trial, Hush Money Trial . Absolutely not. You think jd vance would get anybody to show up . Absolutely not. Its trump with his celebrity is what we see here. Brian. Im just trying to imagine any democrats are going to show up at the trial of bob menendez, the senator, or the trial of joe bidens son hunter, both of which are going to happen in the next few weeks and were not going to see any of this. That tells you all the need to know about the difference in the parties. Fairly put. Brian and chai, thank you so much for walking us through this different lane as we talk about the trial today. Later on tonight, what the testimony might reveal about trumps motive and why that could help deal with reasonable doubt if the jury feels his motive has been proven. And email. Speaking in code. Witnesses discussing something that trump has benefitted from for a long time. A scheming guilty but effective style of avoiding evident. Coming up, we have a manhattan d. A. Veteran on the bragg strategy. Less than two weeks before the president ial election, Michael Cohen wired 130,000 to Stormy Daniels lawyer. 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Welcome to both of you. Catherine, we are near the end. Top of the ninth, maybe. Prosecution is going to rest. This is now the final witness. That news was confirmed today. Where do you think they land when were midcross and i reported that they got some jabs in on cohen but no knockouts. No knockouts yet. They have tomorrow off. Mr. Blanche could speak to his two colleagues who are much better crossexaminers than he is, no offense to him. And then maybe they can sort of tell him about asking more leading questions. The prosecution cannot speak to Michael Cohen on direct, his lawyer can. So maybe his lawyer will say, dont say it sounds like something i would say. Just say i said it. Dont say i dont recall. Not like it moves the needle. He did a lot of, oh, did you say this . He said, probably. It sounds like something i would say. And blanche would say im not asking, yes or no, do you have doubt . Do you think the jury just disregards that . You dont know what the jury focuses on. The jury were prepped for him. Every witness basically, you know, Tarred And Feathered Michael Cohen. They were prepared for him. And the prosecution put all his bad acts i think she should have put out a little more, though she did a very effective direct examination. They were prepared. I think on thursday, he will be more, yes, no, like he was on direct. You know, yes, maam. Yeah. They raise a bunch of Different Reasons that you could have doubt about, whether cohen is telling the whole truth now. And we heard tonight from a former Trump Defense lawyer from the impeachment, who spoke to that. This was just moments ago here, but we turned the sound. Take a listen. When they see a witness, a polluted source like this, that not only is a liar but he has skin in the game, hes making money off the defendant, if the defendant is convicted, hes likely to make more money, i dont see how they can give his testimony the say it has the ring of truth. The basic point is, he has motive or selfinterest, it undermines his credibility. Your response. Hostility, interest, prior inconsistent statements. The defense is hoping one or two jurors believes that. What the prosecution is hoping, look how hes been corroborated. Out of Donald Trumps mouth, hes detailed, he looks at the invoices for the decorators. He knows about paper clips. Is it really serious that he did not know when allen and mr. Cohen were doing . Now, theres also a problem, they might be asking the jurors where is allen weisselberg. You never know what the jurors are thinking. And the defense is hoping, obviously, they want an acquittal. I dont believe that will happen, but they will be happy if they get a hung jury. Emily, your thoughts on where it all lands with cohen so far . Those are great points. One thing i really noticed is the contrast between cohens demeanor and testimony this time around versus The Civil Trial Involving Trump and the Trump Organization where he was all over the place, it was very messy. He seems more coherent. And i agree that the prosecutors didnt land a really serious blow, and i think part of the reason for that was the crossexamination didnt tell a clean story. It wasnt clearly connected as a narrative. So yes, it seems like Michael Cohen could be motivated in part by revenge. I mean, thats the title of his book. But whether you can completely discredit him, thats a whole different question. You know, the idea that you have a witness who lied to cover up the bad acts of the defendant, went to jail, and now is willing to implicate the person he was protecting before, thats its own kind of story that could add up to the jury. Yeah, and i mentioned this in our coverage here, catherine is absolutely right about cautioning against too much, so im not projecting, but i watched the jury today. I was kind of, you know, the lawyers back is to us so i cant see him much. You can look on the monitor for his face. Im watching cohen, who was really a totally different, calmer, almost at times despondent version of himself, and the jury was wrapped. They were watching it like tennis, looking at blanche and cohen back and forth. You could see the valence as compared to other days was higher. Emily, and this idea not that cohen cant be trusted for one reason, but that he cant be trusted for fiveplus reasons and he was off the handle during the trial. I could imagine some jurors finding that to be concerning. Right. Like we were saying, like catherine was saying, you never know what the jury is thinking. But if blanche cant really get it all to hang together, how much is this going to matter given all the corroborating evidence, given that cohen is really showing up because he has to to fill in part of the story, rather than because he is the person conveying Key Information for the prosecution to make its case. So its important for the defense to beat him up, but he doesnt have to be the whole trial here. He doesnt have to prove everything. There isnt that much thats actually hinging on the facts that hes testifying to. Catherine, how much more of the cross would you expect to get to what emily referred to, do you have a different theory of the case, a different story about cohen . Mr. Blanche told the judge hes going to get it the end of the day thursday. He should be hitting. Now, the cross may just be youre a liar, youre a liar, youre a liar. And then say to the jury, you cant believe him. Youre obsessed with revenge. You wear tshirts with trump in bars, behind bars. So going through that. I think on the direct, Just A Little Bit the prosecution should have owned a little bit of the hatred of donald trump, because bring that out on direct as opposed to coming out on cross. Its a good reason why he would hate donald trump. He basically was thrown away after he spent all that time, and i still says it wasnt an Attorney Client relationship, it was master servant. Thats the reason he hates him. That doesnt mean hes making this up. Lanny davis says he may not like him, they may not find him contrite, but hes telling the truth. Its such an interesting point. I wonder about that because its not like every other case. If you have a Garden Variety Case at a company and one person has an unhealthy obsession with another person and that can kind of make them look, for lack of a better term, they look unhinged or bananas and you say to the jury, we shouldnt even be involved in this. Whatever this persons fixation is. In this case, we are talking about the former president who ran the big company, who landed Michael Cohen partly, at least a part of the story of how he ended up in prison according to even the feds. You know, who called him individual one and all that. So to quote the wise taylor swift, emily, you say its not all about me. But what if it is . And what if it is all about donald trump . Is it possible that he has a strong burning obsession thats all about donald trump that for years was positive and then for years was negative and that its all about him because he is the person who was involved in things that led to cohens incarceration and that doesnt mean hes lying right now. Right. And also, in order to be the servant to trumps master, like catherine was saying, you have to have this kind of personality. That in fact the Personality Flaws that we see in Michael Cohen also reflect back onto trump because hes so clearly subservient here, right . And that could add up to the jury as well. Yeah. Understood. Catherine and emily, thanks to both of you. Really interesting. Coming up, we look at the witnesses that had trump nervous about the 16 election. Why they were rattled and that is relevant to the jurys understanding of the alleged campaign crime. And mob ties, mob tactics, and mob talk when we come back. Consider an aarp Medicare Supplement Insurance Plan from unitedhealthcare. With this type of plan, youll know upfront about how much your care costs. Which makes planning your financial future easier. So call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. And set yourself and your future self up with an aarp Medicare Supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. Why choose a sleep number smart bed . Can it keep me warm when im cold . With an aarp Medicare Supplement plan wait, no, im always hot. Sleep number does that. Now, save 50 on the sleep Number Limited Edition smart bed. 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Talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. Michael cohen spoke out today in a way that may matter more than Anything Else hes ever said in any forum about his former boss, donald trump. He testified today and yesterday and at times discussed what basically he and others even the former fbi director have said is trumps mob tendencies. When the fbi raided his home, he felt trump didnt want him to cooperate with the government, keep in mind the government donald trump ran at the time, and certainly not flip. Thats the language of criminals, not Law And Order supporters. As an example of a pattern that has been established, cohen also saying trump avoided email not because he was Old Fashioned or, you know, preferred the sound of the human voice, but quite specifically because trump had allegedly recounted emails are like written papers and he knows too many people who have gone down from using emails that prosecutors can use. Now, lets recall our nation is not full of saints, but the vast majority of people do not go down in courts of law at all. Most people are not just habitually cheating on their taxes and lying to everyone and signing Hush Money Agreements and doing other things that create criminal exposure. So while people are free to use or not use email, the reasoning behind that is what prosecutors caw consciousness of guilt. Cohen also said this in 2019. He dozen give you questions, he doesnt give you orders. He speaks in a code. I understand the code because i have been around him for a decade. We turn to someone who has also been around users of certain codes, former fbi assistant director for counterintel, frank figliuzzi, msnbc analyst. When you look at this from a Law Enforcement perspective, were not so interested in the rhetoric or the attacks or oh, hes like a mobster. For one thing, hes not being accused of a double homicide here. But the consciousness of guilt the prosecutors cay about. Do you think any of that came through in cohens stories and this apparent aversion to creating evidence . Ill tell you what, ari, it does make this tough. Im speaking as a former fbi agent for 25 years. It makes it tough in terms of investigating and making the case convincingly to a jury. I remind folks that when youre talking about a mob metaphor or analogy, you should look at john gotti and the gambino crime family. Its traditionally extremely hard to make the case against the very top echelon of an organized crime family. How was the case made against john gotti . It was made only after years of trying, at federal, county, and state levels by getting microphones inside the social club in new york and literally capturing on tape gottis own voice speaking in a way that acknowledged criminal conduct and direction. We dont have that here. We do have the next best thing. We have trumps voice on a recording. Yeah. Well, let me redirect you a little bit. Since i was in court all day. But what im asking is, does it matter or not, maybe not, that they wanted to elicit from cohen this emphasis that trump had about avoiding records . Does that do anything or do you think thats just not enough . Well, so both. I think it does something because you have got to translate code for the jury. The jury has to understand, american juries watch way too much television. They want that audio recording. They want the videotape. They dont have that here necessarily, so they needed the prosecution needed to say, look, if youre looking for that, we need you to look over here because this guy speaks in code. Youre not going to get it, and lets explain tat to you. Do i also think theres enough here for every juror to buy into that . No, i do not. I do see a pathway to a hung jury here. And i have been telling viewers tonight, if there is a hung jury, it will partly be from the cross today and what we may see tomorrow, because they are poking some holes with, as i put it, no knockouts. People should understand, were just following the evidence. You mentioned code and whether or not you can convince a jury of somebodys intent. We talk about criminal intent, which is different than just admitting things more than you need to. Even on the socalled smoking gun call in the different election rico case, which has been sort of delayed in georgia, there are people who strongly oppose donald trump and what they hear for sure is, election fraud. Duh. But there are other people, including lawyers, who would say, you know, this isnt his first rodeo, and talking about finding votes that may be valid is certainly a more clever way to get where you want to go than admitting, which he doesnt actually technically do on the call, that you want a Government Official to commit blatant voter fraud or to make fraudulent papers. Heres that moment. Take a listen. So look. All i want to do is this. I just want to find one more t we have because we won the state. And flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, you know, its a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it. Getting cohen and others to speak to this, what they are trying to do is convince the jury, hey, you will not find an extreme, perry mason type confession even though there are records and tapes, but you will find Everything Else. Than the fact this person is avoiding being on emails and records, precisely because of the intent. How do you think that works . It is a twoedged sword. You play that george a phone call and you can argue this is the most clear weve ever heard trump engaging in criminal conduct and another juror, by the way, who might be sitting on that particular case would say wait a minute. He showed that he believed that he won the election and, you know what . We should be able to admit our mistakes. So he is careful in his code. He gives himself an out. Similarly you could look at the taped conversation with Michael Cohen where he says, lets pay cash. You could say he has knowledge of criminal conduct. You could also say the guy wanted to pay cash, he must have thought anything criminal was happening. It was 1038 who said no, no, no. So he is coded and careful at the same time. That is well put from an fbi vet, frank figliuzzi. Appreciated. When we look at the Campaign History trump was afraid and there is evidence he was right to be afraid. Kind i see now that it had much to do with bad decisions, in part, that i made. To our nation i am sorry for actively working to hide from you the truth about mr. Trump when you needed it most. Oooh i cant wait for this Family Getaway shingles doesnt care. Shingles is a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. Ahhh, theres nothing like a day out with friends. 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It was the october surprise that rocked the 2016 campaign, the access hollywood tape. It spread panic across Trumps Campaign and the rnc and real questions about whether they would try to ditch him entirely as a candidate. Donald trumps president ial campaign in turmoil, facing political fallout. How Speaker Paul Ryan released this statement canceling trumps event. I am sickened by what i heard today. Senator john mccain pulled his endorsement. When the tape comes out he drops. Then he falls through the floor. That is why they are driving the Republican Party and donald trump off a cliff and into the political abyss. Mitch mcconnell called the comments repugnant and unacceptable. You do not recover from this. This election ended. All you can say is im sorry. It did not end, but have the election been held that week wisconsin and other states would have gone another way. So the trial has shown why the campaign was in such Desperate Measures to make sure no more nails in what some call the proverbial coffin would come out and that is why the daniels and mcdougal stories were so vital. Hope hicks said it was a crisis after the tape and that trump was concerned those womens stories would hurt the campaign and his standing with voters. Cohen saying it wouldve been catastrophic at a time he was loyal to trump and trump said women will hate me. It is a disaster. Guys think it is cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign, end quote. No one knows whether the way it went down could have changed or had those other stories come out, whether trump wouldve won or lost. Prosecutors emphasize it does not matter. The only thing the jury has to keep in mind is that is why there was such a motivation to take these actions to do things they knew, consciousness of guilt, might have been illegal, but they needed to at least keep the campaign on life support. We do know that the election was close. 10,000 votes in michigan. 44,000 in pennsylvania out of over 100 million nationwide. Razor thin in three states and losing the electoral college. The voters then did not know about the hush money scheme. There are no do overs in president ial campaigns. What this trial is bringing to the jury as the intense political motivation for what prosecutors say was a crime that went well beyond politics as usual. That does it for our special coverage. Msnbc has you covered with more Trial Coverage, right now. Michael, did you get any sleep last night . The final witness for