Using military style force against protesters or a man who was instrumental in policies that resulted in the u. S. Having the highest prison population in the world is it time for a new Political Party. Small coming up in todays going on the ground but 1st as protests continue today around the world in the wake of the murder of george floyd many are now asking how the Political Movement it catalyzed conformant true change and perhaps even revolution one woman who knows exactly how hard the struggle against systematic oppression and racial capitalism is the legendary black panther activist professor angela davis whos fight for equality in the sixtys and seventys led then president Richard Nixon to refer to her as a dangerous terrorist she joins me by skype from oakland in california thank you so much professor davis coming on going underground can i just ask you right at the beginning theres a lot of quoting of the great writer James Baldwin at the moment he actually wrote an open letter to you what did he mean when he said our bodies must render impossible the corridor to the gas chamber. Well of course James Baldwin was. Not only magnificent writer but also he was involved in a whole range of social justice issues and he took up my case wrote an open letter to me and. Argue that if they did not protect my life the same would be next if they come for you and the morning he said every do not prevent them from taking you we will be next so that is actually. That is actually very seem of the mass movements have developed against racism against inside ginny against climate injustice etc of course the words reverberate starkly today because of the use of the word gas chamber in the state of california. Still has a gas chamber its ok its that quick prison and the site of many demonstrations over the last few years precisely because of the fact that prisons and and courage the spread of covert 19 to oakland where your speaking to me from known quite pretty as a progressive place around the world spends an enormous proportion of its budget on police and Police Activities what do you think baldwin may meant when he said he could gauge a Nations Health we can all by examining those people that elected to represent are protected what is the health of your nation right now i think the world is able to see that this nation is far from healthy that our Police Departments are the most dramatic expression of Structural Racism that our prisons are full of black people and latinos that. That we have to have an abolitionist imagination if we want to guarantee a future for our city our standing nation and for the world what does that mean for ill get on to the abolitionists as regards the Prison Industrial Complex and the police but obviously the f. B. I. Targeted you set in media circles people know about watergate do you think itll take a lot longer to know about cointelpro well increasing numbers of people are aware. The extent to which show the government attempt it to wipe out all of those who were resisting those who actually represented the possible future of democracy in this country it usually takes a very. Arent time for radical change to begin to be made but then on the other hand there are moments such as the current conjunction. Were bringing together. A range of struggles a range of issues and allow those of us who have been active in struggles against racism and patriarchy and economic oppression over the years to recognize that the work we do does ultimately make a difference even though it may be 10 years 20 years 30 years 40 years 50 years before we are able to witness the fruits of that activists labor some might not know a cointelpro is from people watching this interview from around the world how did it just remind us how the f. B. I. Persecuted you i know in the news right now we hear about trump being persecuted by the f. B. I. Well of course i was placed on the f. B. I. s 10 most wanted list and 170 and it was in the context of a development of a program called the Counter Intelligence program cointelpro specifically targeted black activists not only myself but many members of the black Panther Party i was active in the black Panther Party but i was also a member of the communist party. And. Of course the black Panther Party was. Targeted in particular and was said to be the most dangerous threat to the nation by j. Edgar hoover who at that time was that head of the yeah i actually also quite out of a soft tissue cooler. Who is still alive. Lives in cuba now was a few years ago designated as one of the 10 most dangerous terrorists and the world and so the f. B. I. Continues to use its force to single out and to. Challenge those who are trying to bring about radical change in this country i think that could have been during the Obama Administration he was designated as yes it was during the Obama Administration absolutely well well get to his Vice President joe biden in a 2nd but you talk there about communism you have used the phrase racial capitalism has the role of a revolutionary change since back in 72 when you said that it means wanting to change society to promote a world where needs and interests are responded to call i use the term racial capitalism which show comes from. Political scientists and. Black studies scholar centric robinson who pointed out that capitalism has always been infused with racism crowd the outset of the present so that we should not. Think about racism as cap and capitalism as discrete entities they are both and to connect it with each other but i think that this is really a Pivotal Moment not only in the history of the u. S. But also in global history that we collectively witnessed the lensing of joy which floyd at a time when the world was shocked and placed so tempting to avoid being infected by 19 and of course the struggle against lynching and against racist violence has an extremely long history that day. Back to the immediate aftermath of slavery so i would say that this moment has been a Long Time Coming i dont think that anyone expected that it would develop quite in the way that it did but the particular confluence of revealing the Structural Racism that many black that next immunity is more vulnerable to convert 19 combined not only with horrendous murder of george floyd but also a mark our grim reality and tony. Date but i think what is so important today is that people are focusing on structural issues theyre not simply calling upon the individual cops to be brought to justice you know current for demilitarization of the police and defunding of the police and dismantling of the police well it certainly does it certainly does seem pivotal when there wasnt long ago Ruth Bader Ginsburg the Supreme Court justice was saying sportstar Colin Kaepernick was dumb and disrespectful to take a knee now we have the d. N. C. Doing it what did it make you feel when you saw nancy pelosi and the others wearing gun a in traditional kente cloth worn famously make women a groom a before he was overthrown by the cia. Ok its kind of a bizarre image of course but but when i am on lies it what i see is the fact. Of mass movements of the protesters the summer that was intended by. The solidarity that was demanded millions of people in the street but of course they have to do a great deal more than take a knee like cole cabinet did a great deal more than were can say clark. We will see what happens over the coming period. Scotland has voted to stop the selling of tear gas rubber coated steel bullets and riot shields to the United States do you would you other countries to stop selling riot control good to the United States after what weve seen on our t. V. Screens of the protests. Oh absolutely and and i think its important to point out in this context it was back in 2814 in the context of the ferguson uprising. The militarization of the police was revealed and the fact that the tear gas that was being used those occupied palestine was the same tear gas that was being used and ferguson weve learned that many Police Departments including smart ones like the Ferguson Police department have received Anti Insurgency training by the Israeli Military and also i heard so many apple s police oversee training from israel im not sure about the particular offices have been accused of the murder of george floyd but i think we need to remember that there is still an important collection between struggles in the us and struggles and power stand this connection was made and the 960 s. It was made again in 24 g. And it needs to be emphasized today what is it about palestine that is so important the European Union is against boycott divestment sanctions over here in britain the labor party its foreign China Foreign secretary says its the semitic to condemn atrocities by the Israeli Government was palestine relevant to what were seeing about george floyd well how this time has taught us a great deal about resistance about. The enduring. Resistance and weve learned a great deal about the president just real complex by looking at palestine and looking at all of the ways wish palestine and is experiencing the cursor all technologies developed by the state of israel for a very long. In time there have been links of solidarity between house in hands on the ground and black people in the us when i myself was in jail i received numerous solidarity messages from house to me and Political Prisoners i think that. The time has come to reveal the absolute absurdity of assuming that the criticisms of the policies and practices of a nation state such as israel are equivalent to anti semitism as a matter of fact many jewish people in israel are involved and the struggle for solidarity with with palestine and certainly b. D. S. Is simply a boycott movement. Sanctions it is a Nonviolent Movement the way in which it is falsely represented by so many. Forces in the world is something that we have to add on lies and dispute well we invite the israeli ambassador to london on the program to refute some of what your saying i think the Israeli Government does admit to demolishing homes professor angela davis ill stop you there more from the legendary black panther activist after this break. We are witnessing the rise of a new secular religion and its called the focus of the moment in a short history its called you stupid and your racism by well everything is now considered racist the believers in this cult the middle between 2 selfless. Isnt the really never told how racism is to be eradicated or how it helps serve the interests of working people of all hours. 6. In seoul you cant get away from advertisement in you to change your appearance. Many local people see Plastic Surgery thats a prerequisite for a successful career employers are often most interested in a job seekers appearance as a graduation present parents often give doctors Plastic Surgery for an extra fold in the eyelids to make their eyes are pink i. Almost every korean teenager dreams of looking just. Needles. Welcome back im still here with one of the most influential activists of the last century professor angela davis local Police Forces state Police Forces can surely say nothing like the action theyre taking against the george floyd protesters is like what happened against move in 1905 in philadelphia when children were killed aerial bombardment of homes and so forth do you think things are better today well i think things are better in the sense that we know better that were able to add a lot more effectively understand the meaning of the kind of policing to wish people in this country have been subjected for a very long time. To remember that. The legacy of slavery is a part of the francaise of policing. The site which rolls during slavery only after bad. Racist lars and the use of Law Enforcement to garrett she folding of a horrendous lens shipmans i think things are better today because we recognize the institutional character of this race is and were not simply saying individuals who commit these horrendous acts are responsible were pointing to the systems we are corning to the structures and this insistence on understanding Structural Racism institutional racism state racism is is relatively new and this is what has made this particular historical moment so exciting and yet with this game in consciousness the increase in budgets for Police Forces seem staggering the new york Police Department as a 6000000000. 00 budget thats bigger than vietnams Defense Budget vietnam of course which defeated the United States of america what is behind these Massive Police budget. Well of course the emphasis on police the emphasis on policing the emphasis our prison meant that has led to mass incarceration is very much driven by racism. And law and order instead of addressing the needs of communities of color and let me say that we are in the process of doing to date what should have been done and the i media aftermath of slavery. Of this these processes of guaranteeing that previously enslaved people and degeneracy people subject to the genocidal empacher colonization leapt to next communities. That. There should have been efforts long ago to consider what kind of changes our society would be required it order to guarantee equality and justice for all as the citric racial and economic and gender justice and equality you mention mass incarceration some probably not in the corridors of d. N. C. Power think joe biden may be synonymous with mass incarceration what would you say to someone thinking of voting for joe biden in november well. Im not really happy about joe biden so i think that in the long run. We need to break out of the 2 party system both of which a very much tied to a corporate capitalism. But of course that is for the long run we have less than 5 months before the upcoming election. I dont see this election being about choosing a candidate who will be who will be able to lead us in the right direction it will be about choosing a candidate who can be most affected really pressured to allow a more space for the evolving mt races movement but i did it is very problematic in many ways he has not only in terms of its past and the role that he played and pushing toward mass incarceration of both he has indicated it then he is opposed to this disbanding the police and this is definitely what we need we need to re conceptualize the very notion of Public Safety but i say but. But its far more likely to take a mass. Seriously far more likely than the current occupant of the white house so that this coming november the election well as. Not so much to vote for are the best candidate but to vote for or against ourselves and to vote for ourselves i think means that we will have to campaign for vote for by you know think the George Floyd Protests will create a new Political Party to vote for in time for november then i dont think personally you know who knows what is possible but building a party takes a great deal of time and we meant talking about new parties and new parties have emerged. But to build the kind of party with. P. L. T. Masses of people for a structure that would be capable of getting out the vote in time to oust donald trump is another issue you mention defunding the police because youre an advocate of prison abolition i mean what is it like living in a country which imprisons proportionally more than stalin or mao ever did. Well you know of course im someone who has been involved in. Working against imprisonment sense since the 1970 s. I i became involved in the struggle and. In movements against movements for the freedom of Political Prisoners like lolita liberal like bobby seale from the black Panther Party. And many of us have been current for the abolition of prisons for decades as a matter of fact my introduction to the concept of evolution came with abacha uprising in 1071 when i myself was in and jailed the racism that has been recognized as driving the very structure of policing and this country is equally embedded in the prison system and is responsible for what we have come to call mass incarceration so. Just as the call for the abolition of policing and its current form is now being raised. It reflects it reflects decades old calls for the abolition of prisons. And of course we call for prison abolition because prisons are simply a dumping ground for people who represent the failure of society to trust problems of poverty and physical and Mental Health and education etc why isnt why is it been so difficult would you mala still in prison Leonard Peltier why these names a decade after decade why is concerted action failed to free so called Political Prisoners in the United States oh it gives you a sense of the power of this institution. Power of the police the power of Police Unions as a matter of fact more me i was remark linnet penalty here continue to languish in prison piece precisely because they have been so systematically opposed by Police Formations in this country so im hoping that as this as the Police Unions are coming under an enormous amount of criticism this may also create an opening for us to demand the release of leno and. Well people around the world know of your name arguably in the global south and so on we now learn that here in britain the british say to cure the service is a using a picture of you. Perhaps to entice certainly to promote their own campaign called stooge on instagram and facebook to encourage some kind of work debate what do you think about how youve been coopted now in this latest british intervention by the Security Forces here well it doesnt surprise me. And i think its important to be aware there are all kinds of strategies are being employed will be employed to try to over ass the global way of resistance and im i just hope that people recognize these are Desperate MeasuresJustice Policy is of the government and the u. K. And the u. S. Desperately try to preserve a past races of empty labor practices of misallocated veyron mental and justices but i think that young people who are protesting today represent a different future and the only thing i can say is may they prevail well just finally then a statue fall all around the world to imperialist often the placards read by any means necessary malcolm x. Is famous quote what do you think that phrase means 55 years after malcolm x. s assassination. Well of course at the time when malcolm x. Said by any means necessary he was only a caning our absolute determination to overturn racism and inequalities and all forms of injustice i think that we can continue to say by any means necessary the fact that so many people were out in the streets and the minutes 8. 19 pandemic was indication of the deep passion and the collective will for change. And. You know i think that people are becoming aware of the extent to which the past is still driving the present and that what we are doing now is long overdue opera opposition to race is Police Violence is about finally facing the sentries all. Legacies of racism he ages any day ages though of cooption where the black lives matter will be coopted the funeral for floyd had joe biden in it and the famous dichotomy house the group was his field negro is that still alive today of. Course there are always efforts to call us troubles. And a sense we can say that when we effort we should be our successes. That those however are desperately trying to identify with those who are struggling so that of course so that they can change the trajectory of those struggles but i think that many people understand that now and i actually welcome these expressions by people in power because we realize that we are beginning to challenge the head mounted powers. Of those and government if we do this we can collectively resist the dominance of the past and we can begin to move toward a more master tory future president ial davis thank you thats it for the show back on wednesday the 5 Year Anniversary of charleston judge shooting when a white supremacist gunman killed 9 black people during a bible study in South Carolina until then people just my social media joined me on the ground on Twitter Facebook and surround sound cloud and you to. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics score business im show business ill see you then. Hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on Peter Lavelle we are witnessing the rise of a new secular religion and its called the focus them at the moment in that short history its goal is to end racism why well everything is now considered racist the believers in this cult demand obedience insult criticism but were really