Quick me Stephen Stanko China's rise to economic superpower status as an unaltered brought with it I'm opening up of politics or culture far from it the Communist Party has intensified its efforts to suppress dissent of all kinds so it is that my guest today China's most internationally famous artist Ai Wei Wei now lives in the u.k. Not Beijing he's a refugee and a migrant of sorts so how has that affected his creative output my artists like a vehicle but to my activism has led to the gas or they you so. You they cannot move who is sell to one another it's not possible that's I wait on hold talk after the New Years. This is the b.b.c. News Hello I'm Gareth Barlow in his State of the Union address to the u.s. Congress President Trump has spoken of what he considers his greatest achievements after 3 years in office referring to what he called the great American comeback he said the economy was throwing and his actions have made America respected again around the world from the instant I took office I moved rapidly to revive the u.s. Economy slashing a record number of job killing regulations enacting historic and record setting tax cuts and fighting for fair and we separate all trade agreements. With. Our agenda is relentlessly pro worker pro-family pro growth and most of all pro American was a president's speech was punctuated with the aunt who gestures recognizing his guest Venezuela's self-proclaimed president when go I don't own a ring a military veteran and awarding a private school scholarship to go from Philadelphia Democratic congress women wearing white declined to stand for the repeated evasions some heckled him as he extolled his own health care policy as Mr Trump concluded the House speaker Nancy Pelosi ripped her copy of his speech in her mouth Madeline dean of Democratic politician from Pennsylvania gave this response to Mr Trump's speech that was filled with the exact opposite of what this president has spent 3 years doing he's been tearing down our relationships with minorities he's been tearing down regulations that will protect our climate has been tearing down our educational system the Democratic Party in the u.s. State of Iowa has reported post results in the state caucus showing the candidate Peter Blute ahead in terms of delegate count closely followed by Bernie Sanders Peter Bowditch a former mayor. And openly gay candidate described the result as a victory for his campaign was it your idea that we could have a message the same as conduct in Burma in rural and suburban communities then we should reach out to Democrats and independents and even to some future for Republicans ready to bring change to. The former vice president Joe Biden is in 4th place the caucus represents the 1st leg of the race to choose a Democratic candidate for November's presidential election the latest figures from China show another large increase in the number of people infected with a new coronavirus in the past 24 hours cases on the mainland leapt from 1000 and a half 1000 to more than 24300 the number of people have died from the disease has risen to 490 cases so far you're listening to the latest world news from the b.b.c. a Judge in Argentina has ordered a criminal investigation into 6 members of the country's hate Naval High Command over the disappearance of a submarine the same one in 2017 with $44.00 crew on board the judge accused the man a failing to fill their official g.t.s. The wreckage of the sand when was found after a yearlong search 500 kilometers of the cased Paraguay's government says it believes most of the prisoners who escaped last month from a jail housing members of Brazil's violent p.c.c. Gang are still in the country the minister of interior Cletus Acevedo said security forces are so far recounted 11 of the $75.00 prisoners the Chinese technology firm Holloway has said it will set up manufacturing bases in Europe to make components for the 5 g. Networks that will build them and Lissie building factories in Europe will help persuade e.u. Countries not to take the tough measures against Huawei which the United States has which regards it as a threat to national security. New research has suggested that the vocal patterns of penguins follow the same general principles as human language the study was led by 2 French universities and was published in the journal Biology Letters The b.b.c. Has been lowing has more details. That's the call of the African or black footed penguin It was the focus of this research examining 28 adults in 3 different colonies in captivity in zoos in Italy the scientists listened to what are known as their ecstatic display songs recording them for analysis for the 1st time they found that laws governing information compression in speech could be observed in animals other than primates as with human language the words used most often by the Penguins were the shortest the longest words were composed of additional But briefer syllables from the talking penguins and for me that's the latest b.b.c. Knees. Welcome to hold talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me Stephen Stanko my guest today is China's most internationally famous artist Ai Wei Wei now it is early sixty's he has a body of work which incorporates sculpture film documentary installation aka take photography a prolific and eclectic output united by a determination to question authority provoke difficult questions and give voice to the forceless particularly in his native China oddly a surprise them that he consistently ran into trouble with the Chinese Communist Party as his fame spread in 2011 he was charged with financial crimes and was imprisoned for almost 3 months he has since left China and offer a brief residence in Berlin he and his family are now based in the u.k. Aid in recent is his creative output has been profoundly affected by his experiences in his words on high end political refugee So how does this Chinese artist expressed his feelings about his homeland now well I way way joins me welcome to our talk. Thank you has living in exile changed you think as an artist. I think he's actually I am the same now I am most born as I growl my father was I was out of the world the year I was born so he was sent by remote area and now there were people being put in this education camps but the v.a. Or the artist the 1958 but I guess this is different because you are now also very far from your homeland and so much of your artistic output in China was sort of pushing at the edges over a repressive system asking questions over challenging it and now you're no longer in it do you think the outside world particularly the Western world in which you now have come to terms with what China represents perhaps even the threat it represents. I think the West economically benefited by such a huge market and there cream fall environment even as dictatorship but it still produces. A tear on the labor and also all the possibilities the West cannot always think gradually realized become the top top. Economic force and the want to come visit is the political ideology still is the state. Polled wholly clearly announce they're not follow international standard the common values of walking to you like the democratic system for you dependent prize all freedom of speech and all those need pendent the traditional system which causes a great. Heading for the West she 25 years ago when perhaps the economic engagement with China really took off the argument was that the more we engage we build these trade relationships we we develop our ties to China and of course see China grow the more we will see China adopt our systems our mindset in terms of values freedoms democracy are you now conclusively sure that ain't gonna happen for a very beginning while people assume try and the will become a more liberal and democratic society I think is just. Call wishful thinking and this kind of society like. Clear set Perry and dictatorship kind of lust quite long I made last longer than the sec so I never change the political condition and become much par for and have much stronger young friends in many ways the West cannot even compete to face but I would never change you I think in the last few months I've been heavily involved in filming the protests in Hong Kong the pro democracy protests you can't do it yourself of course but when you look at what is happening in Hong Kong and the reaction all of the u.k. The United States other Western powers do you feel the people of Hong Kong who are on the streets are being let down. I don't think the young people being hung Kong was such a beautiful Han demonstration. Which weaving in the flak saw for the Western freedom and democracy and that completely be led by the Western nations because they would send could that's a problem in the Us President Trump already clearly tell me stay he will not interfere. And to use that as a Bogen to get better treat treating deals which I think it's very shortsighted it's not an internal problem concomitant flak to the west and ideology in the West and should not talk not just lost those. Very important battles but interestingly on one particular issue the Americans have made a stand and that is the question of why wary and extremely successful telecoms in China which is at the forefront of developed developing 5 g. Communications technology the Americans have decided they want nothing to do with it yet in the United Kingdom the government has just made a decision in a limited form to allow hallway to be one of the developers of 5 g. Technology here in the u.k. As somebody with very strong opinions about the relations between the West and China what do you think of the U.K.'s decision I think your case decision as shortsighted I think u.k. Should the exam come to you from the Huawei is not a normal company it's a state run media treat type of a company which kind of a potential danger to say to you western security u.k. So pretty Also I think in this case u.s. Is completely right to cut off that kind of connection and don't ask us I like to also do so but far away says look just treat us as a tech company because that's what we are and this idea that we are given instructions by the Beijing government is completely false trust us they say are you saying that there can be no trust was so ever as one British m.p. Who criticised the u.k. Deal put it It's like inviting the forks into the henhouse. That Fred I think is fair I think of that and the lies in if you look at the history of try and I don't know want to be trusted you know I they have padding in the higher you seem very nice history even come your friends of course in the big every sincerest the party's interests in the area buddy have to receive hands. On their interest with the party so how far do you take this view of yours of Beijing for example the other day we had the vice president of the United States light depends described the Chinese Communist Party as the greatest threat to the interests of the United States in the world today I think. He is absolutely absolutely correct in that sense if you talk. To the western civilization this party has a clear vision ability and very well organized and though they were never a compromise that is the problem I dare say there will be many Chinese people watching this who will say I way way has fundamentally betrayed our country here. In his comfortable exile condemning his own country I'm not condemning my country I come to come this the party you know the people I know was in this so-called country and the Communist Party totally dominated or we. Did tell us of a and do your life and the popular performance talking of you these days of course you're still your own autistic output is still pretty prolific but a lot of your time is spent campaigning as a now. This particular human rights activist and I was very struck by something you wrote in The New York Times recently about events in China which you say of talent amount to a sort of culture side of whole peoples and you were particularly concerned about the fate of the we give people the Muslim we get people in a part of the country that you know well because you've told me your family was sent into exile in Shin Jack and this would culture side what do you mean by it I think clearly a strategy by. Control control ourselves of the nation twined to. Make. Way where people or bad hands disappear by. Sacrificing their culture and there's irritated language again the Chinese government and I spoke recently to the Chinese ambassador in London he says this is nothing but distortions and lies and I just wonder whether you ever poor those to consider the achievements of the Chinese Communist Party there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people to date in your country who are living better lives materially much better lives because of the strategy and policy pursued by this Communist Party that you portray as an enemy of the people my father as maybe the most important the communist OJT he is the number one had take. Point he is friends of cease father. Close friend and I think this part he meant 10 times. And the sacrifice the early ideology and the completely be treated. I do ideology and want to I'm saying is true I'm not I'm not to try it now and I trains people but to tell the truth says the best way to help us and solid. Let me turn now to your life out of China when you 1st went into exile you went to Berlin and had a studio in Berlin I think you found life difficult in Germany and of course in the end you chose to leave and to come to the United Kingdom but you left with some controversy because you appeared to feel that in Germany you were not truly welcome but Germany was not an open tolerant society and there was one famous incident in a casino in Berlin where you got into an altar creation with a member all this stuff and ultimately during a an argument you accused him of having a Nazi how to choose what was happening there it seems like you were struggling to fit it into what we regard as progressive liberal Western society Well I think that you lotion. And the means to a man is not the progress of their bro society and they if you see a society. Just try to imagine not too long goal millions of people being sacrificed because certain kind also Terry and the idea and this is basically cold turkey still have a strong inference from this kind also terrain state surely the lesson of Germany over the last 6070 years is that it is no extraordinary ability to leave the past behind Yes I can see the effort but I also can see this is such a hiden structure in their political behavior and acquitted behaviors which very easily you can see the era. Of this kind cinephile be awful for nervous. For ideas or different conduct discussions on liberal sinking and Vernon I will see this summer to see if they are very narrow minded but either way it seems that you were 1st rate too if I may say so by the liberalism itself because at one point when you were discussing the way Germany refuses to take a stand on China for the reasons we've discussed about the deep economic ties investments in China and you said I don't trust all these liberals 'd even if they call me a liberal the truth is these liberals are even capable of taking meaningful actions they're just talking so you don't seem to fit it clearly you don't fit in China but I'm wondering whether you really feel that Western Europe are the 2 I think that's the exact quote one sad and I may be conservative liberal or are liberal conservative I think of many liberals while debate talk about today failed you can see in the political couple call it political situation test become a talking has there has no ground they don't make Angus and. Happen you know it's not that they cannot really a fight. Or a far right or is kind of a notion so I think. It takes a great struggle and defense to become a true liberal interesting blood lead then let's take one issue which is really concerned you as an artist over the last few years particularly as you've lived in Europe and that is migration and the challenge for Europe of what to do about the hundreds and hundreds 'd of thousands of people many of them suffering terribly in their home countries who want to make it to security and perhaps hopefully to prosperity in Europe you made a film human flu and. 2017 which was an extraordinary visual expression of these flows of people you followed it up with another one rest which focused on individuals caught in this migration trap. The overall impression was that you think Europe has failed. Totally I think Europe has been very shortsighted and selfish and has been very lazy and. Doesn't bear the responsibility and I think this is a good one would let us be honest with us is their responsibility I think their responsibility is to seize a world wide and one location in all and you were of human rights or human dignity has been violated the West should stand up to protect it of course this difficult situation is complicated that's why Europe should be united should be you know to be as a unity to protect its own values you sometimes take it too far I'm thinking about that photograph your setup of yourself in a pose which mirrored that of the 5th the young boy a lot of courage the migrant who was washed up dead on a beach in Greece and you recreated that image using your own body some found that exploitative tasteless many people who want to ponder the way George walk away always said to me in this b.b.c. Building while walking with says you know so-called liberals and just the one who's telling the story most people would not like to hear about in the I'm so identified the bases kind the idea. Besides Kirti his browser that 50 meters away nobody take the full auto. And there's this many solidness under the ocean on the bottom of the ocean and the whole nobody cares I don't people it's kind. Of sentiment I want to tell the troops right now but there is an element of ego in that putting your so you know comparing you're a. Migrant to that I was even last fall's I was in desperate situation I want to settle myself in the same position you know to understand what he's like and I get to do that and one journalist request is not that it's not even issued by me I'm interested by that reference you just made to George 'd Orwell I just wonder whether as I talked earlier 'd about the balance between your activism and your art. Do you feel that you fundamentally changed that activism is now more important to you than creating new artistic output my artists like a vehicle but to my activism it's like. The gas or they you know if you feel so. They cannot move without one another it's not possible going back to our earlier conversations about exile feelings of China it is ultimately still your homeland and it is where your family your mother live will you go back. Under the current political circumstance I would never go back. And you know I don't. I come functions here is not possible and. I'm not takes a sting in that society my name cannot be mentioned So why go back to just give extract job to the political secret he your own you know. But I think you've just said that under the current circumstances with this government I cannot go bag does raise one fundamental question do you think in your lifetime that the Communist Party of China will find its grip on power loosened but China will fundamentally change I is serious question I don't come to the party I want to have this kind of conscience or or intention to make a change that means I will never be able to go back and just in terms of the country and the feelings you have I just ask you a final question about something that's happening in your home country right now which we're all talking about the spread of this coronavirus you made a distinction between the government and the people when you read about the thousands of new cases about the degree of panic and fear in China across China today do you feel like human empathy. Deeply. I feel where are ironically the 1st you have a state which never give any clear you formation. Where do these 3 really come from. Is the question. And the even 100 lockup of the 1st 8 doctors who announced us the situation on the Internet and they tried to cover up from beginning God made to the disease spirit in the very crucial period now still you don't know what is exactly going on because it is the state not very transparent so the whole cost . If you have such a tragic. I put that I said that if you don't let people walk on the street you have to lock the whole cd as a result you from don't like people freely talk about it then you have to put them in lock their doors put them in hospitals so try and today what happens today. Varies as to 1st made in China name brand and was set up alarm for many many a sense to call. For the people of the country that's suffering but they have been suffering for a long time it's not the 1st time they're sour for the sixty's seventy's eighty's you know why is Tank crashed a students movement and we all know what's happening in China and this is the fact it's not a fantasy if we don't act up to really seriously put it. On the same table talk about human rights human conditions and. Too late you know because seeing friends become so strong globally. I we were thank you very much for being on the hot sun I was talkin. This is the b.b.c. World Service We're going back to Nazi Germany Barry Lynn spent years studying genocide it is a subject that heralds the mind and the spirit 'd 'd That's why I was drawn here to the story of a little girl born in 1903 good and grew up in the aftermath of World War One a time of jazz modernist art and social upheaval for young woman the age she was living in Mensa paid it nothing in her childhood or within her family suggested in history of rebellion when the 2nd world war started she fought back against Nazi tyranny during the ninety's thirty's you still had hopes that this would go away that the Nazis would vanish one day join me for gold keen to find out why some people are from the most unexpected who risked everything to confront evil the remarkable resistance over at b.b.c. World Service dot com slash documentaries Mexico and machismo go hand in hand a frontier country that's not shared its rugged mentality or taste for violence against this at times a brutal backdrop where does this leave the relationship between men and women have any of the recent protests made a dent in Mexico I'm term Samuels and together with Anna Holligan will be exploring what's going on with men in the country's capital Mexico City join us for a new series of being that's after the news. B.b.c. News with Gareth Barlow President Trump has delivered his 3rd State of the Union address to the u.s. Congress he spoke of what he considered his greatest achievements in office he referred to what he called the great American comeback saying the economy was throwing even got his actions abroad America more respect from other countries Mr Trump acknowledged his guest Venezuela's self-proclaimed president when he Also on it a military veteran and then awarded Rush Limbaugh heiress conservative radio talk show host with the Presidential Medal of Freedom Republicans made repeated standing ovations but some Democrats walked out and as present from concluded the House speaker Nancy Pelosi ripped her copy of his speech in half the Democratic Party in the Us state of Iowa has reported partial results in the state caucus showing the candidate beat brutish in front in the delegate count closely followed by Bernie Sanders Joe Biden is in 4th latest figures from China show another large increase in the number of people infected with the new coronavirus in the past 24 hours cases on the mainland leapt from 19 and a half 1000 to more than 243-0490 people have died Meanwhile at least 10 passengers on a cruise ship quarantined in Japanese waters have tested positive for the corona virus after a former passenger was diagnosed with the illness a judge in Argentina has ordered a criminal investigation into 6 members of the country's Naval High Command over the disappearance of a submarine the San Juan in 2017 with 44 crew on board and a biological study has suggested that the vocal patterns of penguins follow the same general laws as human language researches said it was the 1st time that the principles of information compression in speech was observed in animals other than primates b.b. Sing these. This is the compass on the b.b.c. World Service with Tim Samuels and and aholic and. You're listening to a new series called being we want to find out what's actually on the minds of men and women into very different parts of the world. Warsaw and Mexico City might be silos and of miles and cultures the pyres but in some ways they might be closer than you think. A machismo leaders are back in fashion from Europe to North and South America the limits of the Mitsu movement being tested. In the 2nd part of this b.b.c. World Service series and a whole again and I continue our exploration of what life was like for men in Mexico City. Last time I spent time with women in this sprawling metropolis hearing how the ever present threat of violence lingers below the surface for many now they say don't feel safe at any time a female sports journalist commentating on the Champions League final triggered an outpouring of abuse death threats rape threats my chills thinking that I singlehandedly who in football in one day and how there are signs that it's in some circles women are going to take this level of Harris months any more. Important Than That is I suppose to be after all at the end but that's a lie because I believe women should stop playing the role of victims and start taking back the spaces that belong to us we should not have to ask for permission over the last year a wave of protests and a resurgent Mitsu movements have had an impact in Mexico where its capital has its 1st elected female mayor but this is unlikely to be fertile soil for an outburst of equality the country where 10 women a killed every day and 6 out of 10 say they've experienced some kind of violence. One still being brutalized by I water and murder rates driven by the drugs wars. In this program we're going to bring a selection of men together for discussion of what life is like in Mexico City men with very different experiences to get a sense of where Mexico City is out of visited someone who listens acutely to what's happening in the vast metropolis one of its leading musicians Camillo Lara. And releasing a new. Love letter to Mexico City if you go out with your tape recorder you will definitely hear it same cells. Where you go out and you're listening to the. Recourse that Melissa. Called turn briefly only. One of them selves. And the other one by madrases preaches. It's a beautiful. Ugly cd. This. Is Camilla was a precocious talent as a record collecting 15 year old he started working at my Mexico by the time he left 25 he was the head of the label I also started in journalism at the tender age and wanted to show Camillo a photo from my 1st interview of me and a certain rock star. So I was 13 and I grew up in Manchester. This was my 1st interview. When Morrissey that's amazing and I'm 13 wearing a meter's murderer t. Shirt yes I grow up obsessed with Manchester and then when they went. I was like is these not just. A dream it was a like a magic place where everything is possible so I came across you really. A Mexican take on this matter Marcy. When I listen to the queen is dead I was probably made 5 or 60. I started trying to figure out why there was this love affair between Mexico and Morrissey. Then I listen to music more carefully what if he was Mexican and instead of using guitar riffs he uses trumpets. It's very hard to me to speak up more easy to play essentially his politics have drifted to the right it would seem if you ask me today if I'm completely in love with Maurice a would say I'm completely in love with what represented the music when I was growing up you know probably looking at masculinity and what's going on with man and boys I just wonder if you look at the Mexican music scene at the moment other any trends which reflect what man are feeling at the moment and is that being expressed it's a little different because imagine a country that has been with the same political party for 70 plus years and I think he was he has been a escape to reality what impact do you think the whole meter movement has had on man in Mexico Well a lot it was very positive it was hard to eat heat a lot of people it help definitely help and you had friends or guys you know who've been called out and affected by. Yeah of course so you know if you there was a famous case of a hill which was very well blown artist he called me. A letter explaining that he was lucky of the accusations I think you were such a shocking moment for everyone so I mean some of the guys you know have been accused How have they reacted Have they been defensive Have they been contrite and think Ok maybe I should have done that what was their reaction being both some of them has been aggressive and some others have agreed that some of what they have done is not right it happened to a lot of people the death of the musician Armando very high hill in early 2019 seems to have brought the me to movement to a halt in Mexico but that it's brief time in the country have any lasting impact on men this and a whole range of issues affecting men is something I wanted to discuss with a group of guys I've brought together for a deeply candid chat Hello America gathered with me our Berto back writer and historian. A psychologist and sexologist Harrison person Perona a writer so what's it like being a man these days in Mexico City something I put forth guest Mario Monti roller editor of men's magazine h being a man in Mexico she's better than being a woman in MacOS you don't get that in places like the subway but they're going to rethink years a very important part of being a man in Mexico City and Mexico in general is feeling ashamed I mean do you feel ashamed to be a mom so this idea that men are more valuable than women we all are in a way part of that I think to a great extent in my life I haven't been aware of that people issue that but if I think through 13 kind of feeling of shame do you feel that you're carrying the burden of shame on your shoulders I don't feel the shame. But that skirt. Need to expose that here in Mexico one question that a lot of men. Was revisiting my past relationships No I've never been a violent guy and never been aggressive but I have been socialized to be a soldier to be someone aggressive and even to dominate specially women or other people so I have this kind of fear that what if I one day become a violent person but it's not just a fear of what you might become it's a fear that somebody from your past might say you know what I didn't consent to what happened Yeah well I think that I've never been in a non consensual sexual encounter but I also know that that's a possibility because men are socialized and they're educated to not care about consent. You were called out early this year there were allegations against you made on Twitter that you had sexually assaulted women and dominated. Pregnancy and abandoned them and the accuser in more than 10 cases what was your response what is the question about the I mean what is what is the response what is your response to those allegations when when this came out doing a book thing those people shut it down and and then the allegations started to raise I just don't know how to react just to be clear you know for the record have you assaulted or raped a woman ever know never. What the consequences for you when these allegations were made everything like crashing down for me I guess the 1st things that happened were like. So I had to move out of from my house and I lost my yobs the police never got involved no never because no one made. Any of those. Is like another problem and I guess here in Mexico women are more afraid to go to the police or something it's quite something for somebody to make such accusation against you if there is no truth or no evidence I mean do you think the could have been something that you might have done which maybe you thought was consensual and they didn't think there was something at the heart of this. Emotional by a lens I guess to that effect I would say that probably. Made some mistakes this happened maybe 8 or 9 months ago too you have a new book that's coming out you know not coming out so you think I never will be published I I don't think. No one will want to publish it I think I would in the wind polish it and. Bought it so what would you do for a living. That's what I've been trying to figure out do you feel angry to feel better now not angry not bitter kind of concerned I guess but if you say the allegations are not true you know be furious. I guess that's not how I react normally. I mean me to prove a sort of appeared in Mexico this year because it made a difference. Think so make a difference had the moment. Remembered because Mexico has something of problems I think that helped a lot of people to realize that sexual violence is everywhere and also it held like a lot of women to realize that they're not alone in their suffering to a particular issue in Mexico that a lot of the allegations around me to seem to be an anonymous taken some of the potency out of me too could have become I think the 3rd Yes but the main obstacle is that we still don't know how to enact the change so that some of the allegations are criminal justice issues but most of them are not. Really Done had to deal with them so I think that in a way yes the anonymity of the. Diminishes the but the same time in many cases there's no other way to raise the issue in the Mexican public discussion. We're in Mexico City for the b.b.c. World Service where in 2017 the same year that me to hit the headlines in Hollywood a murder took place in the city which seemed to capture the indifference to violence against women. Oh sorry oh the 22 year old student strangled with a telephone cord at a university campus in the city. The public prosecutor cast aspersions about her character calling her an alcoholic and a pint students thousands of people protested and many more vented their anger using the hash tag. They kill make. Your personal life could somehow be brought up if you were attacked. In the end despite lesbians boyfriend claiming that she takes her own life he was convicted for aggravated family size killing of a woman. Because of her gender. Co-present Anna Holligan Metz with less base father a taxi driver in the center of the city to hear more about his daughter. This. My daughter Let's be him she was very curious she was very fun she liked painting and from a very young age 3 years old she learned how to read what did you think when the police 1st told you it was suicide did you believe them no no. No no I never believed that it was true all of the goals and dreams that she had in life I did not believe that she would have committed suicide. They need Mexico is a country that machismo men here hold pretty much all the power so will sit like for a father like you to feel so powerless was in their name but then generally their base isn't well no one feels a lot of importance that really that the government doesn't do anything and that one of the things they do when all these women are murdered is that they blame them in cases of family site that they said that it was suicide what do you think drove that boy to do this. Is in the realm in the norm. Thing on I don't really know why he took her life but I do think it has to do with my cheese Mormon control that he exercised over her and I'm pretty sure that my daughter was going to leave him but I'm not but there is a controlled but the only reason that there was any justice in this case is because of all of the pressure that there wasn't society. I mean what we did as a family what the N.G.O.s did and the feminist collectives and all the pressure that was put on it was the society that pressured these at least in our case it didn't take so long it took 2 years there are some cases that can take over 10 or 11 years and they don't even get justice in those cases. In Mexico an average of nearly 100 people a murdered each day outside war zones 5 of the 6 most murderous cities in the world live in Mexico where does this violence come from what's at its root one root is. Something I want to put to a group of men starting with. A psychologist and sexologist men are educated to oppress to achieve power through of Biola and means you go to a lot of places on 3 and violence is the only way they can ever achieve something the sort of economic Yeah the rational that's also an economic factor violent ways are the only opportunity they have to ever escape. But but that's. The economic Is there a sense in which to be a man involves some physicality and maybe some violence yeah of course because we learn how to be a man through power from a historical perspective I wonder if there's anything around the kind of way Mexico was forged and it's been a fairly violent. History definitely but it is as a reflection of our ideas about femininity the founding myth of Mexican society is the Virgin Mary and it's one of the things connected with the way in which for example maternity is perceived Mexican society or something. So in Mexico women are supposed to be sacred because they can be mothers they can be mothers like the Virgin Mary. If there are secret but it also means that they're an optic so then object to be venerated they become just an object just to look at someone that you can disrespect as a person not quite the Virgin Mary but I guess you're magazines oh you're a objectify women you had a magazine which the front cover at the moment is just disgusting because porn star and you have a daily newspaper you look after and the front cover. The bottom of a woman on and a man lying stabbed to death with a knife in his stomach do you think that in a society where 3 so much violence against women see naked women every day in the newspapers or magazines just makes them more vulnerable to be targeted think people can different girl in the magazine from the girl who is in the street with you. Know that if you treat the girl. You want to treat the girl from the magazine you're going to get the problems because I can see their what I'm doing is kind of artistic it's quite a piece of art to manage to put a naked woman next to a man with a knife coming out of his chair that's that's that's. I think that's certainly. Magical to her it's not helping says I You sort of touched on a bit but from the work that you're doing psychologist and sexologist what the issues that you're seeing a lot over the moment is the dynamic between a man and a woman in a relationship at the moment symbolically we have 2 main ways to see women one is the sacred one convert Seth and the other one is to see her like a whore for example I've seen men the moment they get married they can't get erections they've been socialized their whole life to think that a wife is sacred and you shouldn't. Have sex with sacred so they start having sex with prostitutes many of the reasons they go to therapy I relate it to the feeling of not being man enough maybe they got fired from their jobs right and because they are fired they can no longer provide for their wives or their girlfriends the book which is something true the world over a lot of monumental health is linked to their jobs and their identity and demand feel threatened by women moving into the workplace and becoming independent and not needing them it's not the women they think we should be threatened about but a major economic hole. Speak a lot about this and written a masculinity and so wanted to make feminism a women the enemy and I said no it's the economy. The magazine that you read it do you think guys even if you know an office like yours might not say things they would have said a couple of years ago no I think Mexican can still make a joke to me too it was a big issue in February but now you can make fun of the me too. Place which seems to capture the duality of man in Mexico City is Candace. Dedicated to transforming men away from abusive behavior. In a room to use for male group therapy sessions I met a salesman and I asked him when he was growing up what did it take to be a man. She. If you want to be a man that you have to make yourself respected in the neighborhood to not cry and not play games with out where can see that. Kind of work as you fall into or not you need to go well I'm a salesman you see the scope I could sell you this got you here that plane aboard Well I could sell you that plane. So it's I mean what did you meet your wife and I was. Going to secondary I met here in Ca a school we were very young but the problems started when we decided to leave together because what I realize now is that I reproduce the way that my father was with my mother it was our relationship full of violence even though I saw how my mother saw for it I did the same with my wife I stopped here from visiting her family because they didn't like me I threatened her that if she saw her family I would end the relationship where you physical with her she. Yes but not with contact I would block here from going out and I would throw things at her How long were you abuse or for before some of doubt some guilt kicked him as the days of way . It was like this for a 13 years until she left. But I didn't do anything about it because in my culture we think other way of looking for help one night she told me she was leaving to have a call your wife and apologize she was on the list yes because it's one of the things that we do here we reach out to the people we hurt my ex-partners didn't want anything to do with me but we talked a lot about them straight when I gave and she agreed that we need to get along for the sake of our children when you come here to Henderson your salary with other guys if you're going to get in this. If I was wearing the wrong glasses then I came here and I put the right glasses on and I realized I was the Sad One Everything became better I saw the life in a thief going way every move your wife girlfriend combined you know. I have a girlfriend partner but we don't live together it's a different culture to my parents they were always together and I'd used to say to my mom why the only for my father she says no no no no but then she got diagnosed with cancer and even though she had short time to leave she did decide to leave him and came to leave with me so in the end even your mom had enough of the bad male behavior how many years was before she left your father but I trace 43 abusive Pierce. Which. Is quite a transformation. That's come about by slowly shutting the much of. It been carrying around all its life. But is he in any way representative for a wider societal shift. Just the sort of naive thinking you can get when spending time in liberal in Mexico City something the group took on the I think it could be the beginning of a very important moment Mexico sociability is based around or homophobia so because we get the role models from you know the soap opera The Mexican films that have match a few years of the chatter or the Mexican Strunk violent alcoholic man we get all our emotional and sentimentality that it was natural now that the border looks increasingly closed to the u.s. How impact do you think on men in Mexico that sense of being a man if there's less opportunity to perhaps go work in the States in many communities particularly young men were absent. So there were just people women and children so now that border is becoming more and more closed Alltop many men are returning because they're being deported that definitely is going to change somehow I think the dynamic of masculinity in Mexico there are a lot of questions how is illegal system to be reformed What if my boyfriend my friend my father my brother me or accuse what am I going to do with it what are fail the strategies around solving the problems to buy a leans towards women the whole a comical and political landscape of Mexico shifting like a lot right now we are in that transition in station I don't know how this is going to end but I hope it's for the best. We take that glimmer of hope to Poland's next us explore the shifting lives of men and women in Warsaw. A booming western facing economy rubs up against some of the old forces of conservatism that's in the next episode of being with me Tim Samuels and on a hologram. The show was produced by Bonnie Rountree and as atomic production for the b.b.c. World Service. You're listening to the b.b.c. World Service and this month's World questions is in Nigeria it's the most populous country in Africa and after decades of military rule civilian government is now well established in one juror. With a public audience and a panel of leading the political figures we are in Lagos the country's largest city discussing what's next for Nigeria and the big challenge is the government faces world questions in Lagos Saturday at 19 and Sunday at 12 g.m.t. . And in 30 minutes it digital planets with Garrett Mitchell the world's data scientists have sharply rising energy needs we're looking at Island this week where the cloud is likely to account for a 3rd of energy consumption within 8 days stay with the nice is next on the b.b.c. World Service the world's media station. It's 5 o'clock g.m.t. And this is the newsroom from the b.b.c. World Service I mean some better President Trump delivers a state of the Union address as he's awaiting the verdict on his impeachment and campaigning for his reelection among his key themes was a celebration of his administration's economic successes under the last administration more than 10000000 people were added to the food stamp rolls under my administration 7000000 Americans have come off food stamps and.