part, is people bring up well, they got this wrong and they got that wrong, what about this, what about this. there's a lot of what abouting. some people you're never going to persuade. ow but i'm not a very patient person and i've had to learn patience. and just trying to lovingly walk people through very relationally -- you know, not to get philosophical but we are in post-modernity where we talk about you've got your truth and i've got mine, there's not the truth. we don't talk about -- >> which drives me nuts, by the way. i hate that. even that phrase, speaking your truth. i'm like there is a thing -- >> i feel instead of i think. >> exactly. >> it requires us to be more relational than we've ever had to be before at a time when we're more divided tribally, loyally, on the internet. just trying to break through and be a good neighbor to people and talk them through it. it takes time but it works if you're willing to lovingly walk through the concerns with people instead of just dismissing them or saying well, you're a trump voter of course you're doing this. >> it seems like all the studies have shown and just common sense tells you if you try to shame people it doesn't work. >> right. you've got to be relational. we are less and less of a relational people because we're