When you look at these specific questions about outreach by the campaign to russia, arent these questions about collusion . Once again, im not going to get into a back and forth about questions leaked or anything having to do with the Special Counsel and i would refer you to the president s attorney. With the exception a swipe at schiff. The white house passes the buck. While the president says the buck doesnt even exist. Keeping them honest, the buck may not stop there. The president didnt wait long to weigh in on these possible mueller questions. Reporter while the president tweeted about these things this morning, he did not answer the question. I was in the oval office with him earlier today and asked him if he wanted to comment on these questions. And he declined to do so. It appears that be the white house and the president prefer
from House Republicans who have been backed by speaker paul ryan, turned over documents giving the republicans access. There are thousands of other documents that the gop wants to see. In a private meeting last month, mark meadows and jim jordan both asked to see an unredacted memo. Could investigate in the russia probe and rosenstein resisted telling them no. Meadows and other conservatives have discussed the possibility of Impeaching Rosenstein if he doesnt comply. When rosenstein was asked about this by our colleague laura jared, he pushed back. Have there been people who are making threats privately and
publicly maki publicly. Reporter respondsing that rosenstein should stepped down. And that is exactly what democrats say the republicans are up to by these tactics. They believe the gop wants to give trump cover to fire him. He was careful in his remarks saying he didnt want to answer this in the context of any Current Situation that is going on meaning the Mueller Investigation. But he said to the Justice Department has in the past reached an opinion that a sitting president cannot be i indicted. It was in 1973, an opinion reached then saying that such an indictment would
unconstitutionally undermine to carry out constitution obligation. That was reached by somebody in the department at that time and you shouldnt draw any inference. Joining me now allen d dershowitz, also chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. That is blatantly false, isnt it . There are at least a dozen questions in there. It is not just blatantly false about the questions because as you have pointed out several times, there are many questions in the mueller list that deal with collusion. But the fact that the president keeps saying over and over again, there was no collusion, there was no collusion, that has not been established and in fact there is lots of evidence that collusion did take place. You know, starting with the
infamous meeting in trump tower where donald trump jr. Sought to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from the russian government. That is collusion right there and that is just the beginning. And i think patients is not a virtue that we all have. But there is an investigation about collusion. There is already some evidence of collusion and we will see if mueller finds more. But the key is to distinguish between illegally aspects of collusion and unlawful. Meeting someone to get dirt is a terrible thing tong but not unlawful. To distinguish between lawful but maybe bad, unlawful and criminal. Thats true of the Obstruction Of Justice as well. When the president says it is hard to obstruct justice, that is wrong. Martha stewart went to jail
for talking to agents about a crime. He was saying why would anybody obstruct justice. Can i answer that question . I understand the answer. People will do that because they have no idea whether it is an underlying crime. Also let him finish. Just one more point. The emphasis in the questions on why the president fired comey strengthens the case for Rod Rosenstein recusing himself because there is absolutely no doubt that he will be called as a witness if there is an indictment. If there is charges, if there is impeachment. Any kind of Legal Proceedings relating to why the president fired comey, the first witness has to be the man who wrote the memo justifying the firing. Why would someone lie when there wasnt an underlying crime, here is a reason. Because they are liars. Liars lie. Regardless of the legal setting in which they find themselves. People who are compulsive liars, they lie. And as allen pointed out correctly, there doesnt have to be an underlying crime. Lying is not a crime. Lying to the fbi is a crime. The New York Times has a lead editorial today in which it says every question that mueller is going to ask trump, he knows the answer to. They reiterated what comey said. The way investigation works you get all the information, you know what you are going to do, and you ask the question of the subject in order to give them a chance to lie and that is a perjury trap. Raises a legal argument that trumps people can make saying you are not allowed to ask him a question in which you dont know the answer. The object of the grand jury is to find out what you dont know. But a perjury trap makes it sound like this is somebody who cant help themselves and lies just comes comes out of their m. And if you only fall into a perjury trap if you chose to lie. It is an improper function of the grand jury to set a perjury trap. Do you agree with that . I completely disagree with that. Donald trump is a key witness in the investigation. Perhaps the key witness. The idea that he somehow is excused from testifying because the grand jury already knows some of the information about which he will testify is just a
preposterous idea. That is not my argument. For example, if they have a witness who says, i was on a call with trump and here i have my notes and i have a tape recording. You cannot ask him a question were you on a call with that person. I won a case like that a few years ago in massachusetts. Why not . The grand jurys purpose is to get information not to give people an opportunity to commit perjury. That is not an appropriate function. We got to get a quick break. When we come back Breaking News from the Washington Post that Raising Possibility of subpoena. The latest next. Feel the clarity of nondrowsy claritin and relief from symptoms caused by over
200 allergens. Like those from buddy. Because stuffed animals are clearly no substitute for real ones. Feel the clarity and live claritin clear. When you combine ancestrys with its historical records. You could learn youre from ireland donegal, ireland and your ancestor was a fisherman. With blue eyes. Just like you. Begin your journey at ancestry. Com looking for a hotel that fits. Whoooo. Your budget . Tripadvisor now searches over. 200 sites to find you the. Hotel you want at the lowest price. Grazi, gino find a price that fits. Tripadvisor. At tmobile, were committed to keeping military families connected. Then momma ninja asked her littlest baby ninja, did you finish your dinner . So in honor of military appreciation month. Active duty and veterans get half off select Samsung Galaxy phones. 3 toddlers wont stop him. And neither will lower back pain. Because at a dr. Scholls kiosk he got a recommendation for our custom fit orthotic to relieve his foot, knee, or lower back pain, from being on his feet. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. I thought i was managing my moderate to severe Crohns Disease. Then i realized something was missing. Me. My symptoms were keeping me from being there. So, i talked to my doctor and learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of Crohns Disease after trying other medications. And the majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief and many achieved remission in as little as 4 weeks. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening Heart Failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you, and them. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, remission is possible. Breaking news from the Washington Post about a meeting. The s word came up, subpoena. Josh this is fascinating reporting. How the prospect of Special Counsel mueller come up between the president s legal team and mueller. A lot of rankling in this interview. Couple of months ago, there was a break down in negotiations. And at one meeting, Special Counsel team raised the idea of a subpoena provoking an angry reply who said you cant screw around with the president of the
United States this is Serious Business and kind of talks broke down. Obviously now we know Rudy Giuliani is now taking over the legal team and as we started the talk, the president has been reticent to do an interview after two things, first being the raid of Michael Cohen. And two, seeing the number of questions they want to ask that are not about socalled Russian Collusion Potential Obstruction and other business deals. A host of issues. Doing interview with the Special Counsel. Another interesting detail in this article is that when this meeting broke down or got contentious, the mueller team or mueller himself said look, we can give you more information about some of the topics and it was jay sekulow who wrote out those 49 questions in which were
leaked. I assume those were the questions leaked last night. Correct. And to be clear, that is not in totality everything they can ask the president. Legal team is saying we want to know what you can ask us. Basically tell us why a president ial interview is compelled. This is the leader of the free will. They provided those 49 questions. What our experts have told us is they are likely to deal down deeper in those projects. Showing emails and asking questions what he remembers in meeting. That is what some of his advisers feel, can trip him up in an interview with the Special Counsel. The 49 questions that first broke last night, those were actually written down by jay sekulow according to your
reporting correct . Chronicled in writing in that side after having a conversation with Special Counsel mueller and his team. It wouldnt seem possible it was a leak from the mueller team if those questions were written by jay sekulow obviously doesnt discuss our sourcing on stories. But clear to say the questions have been reported by the noew york times and the Washington Post. The president himself tweeted about it this morning complaining about the leak itself which now seems obvious in terms of what direction it is coming from. Josh dawsey. I think Special Counsel has taken some pride in this investigation having a spokesperson who does not comment or have been even
critical of the president s legal team over time to what they perceive as speaking to the press inartfully. Obviously as reporters we welcome everyone to speak to us. Appreciate your reporting as always. Back with professor Allen Dershowitz and Jeffrey Toobin. I think where we are going is to a subpoena. The president s legal team should have no interest in answering these enormously broad questions voluntarily. They will get the same broad questions artfully asked at a grand jury but at least they will be able to challenge a, the entire process of subpoenaing the president. They will lose on that. I think they will win on some areas of questioning. For example, why did you fire. What was your motive. What was your reasoning. I dont think you can question
president ial acts. I think what you can get to is what the president is most vulnerable on and that is Business Dealings before he became president. No court is going to deny the grand jury the power to get to those questions and the irony is those questions that he has the best legal right to prevent are not the most important questions in which he has no legal light to prevent. Based on this reporting, do you believe what the professor just said that subpoena seems to be where we are headed. This article talks about how the president is fuming about the Michael Cohen raid. Doesnt want to sit down and talks about it 20 times a day it says in the article. I agree with allen that a subpoena is coming and agree that ultimately the president will lose. I disagree that the courts will limit mueller much in what he can ask. I think he will be allowed to
ask about motive because i think it is relevant. But the larger point is, i think the president has a way of short circuiting this entire process. And i think that is what he is going to do ultimately, take the fifth. No. No. Can i finish allen. Which is the president will denounce the process. It is a witch hunt. He doesnt want anything to do with this. There is nothing mueller can do if the president of course there is. He gives him immunity. Never going to get the president immunity. Let me tell you why. Because an immunity doesnt apply in the impeachment proceeding. And no matter what rosenstein you are not going to get a reversal. Now you can indict him, now you can prosecute him. If he foolishly takes the fifth, he gets to be asked all of these same questions under immunity and all the answers can be used against him in an impeachment
proceeding, you are an a plus student but boy on this one, taking the fifth, i am not going to give you your grade. It wont happen. Watch it happen. He is going to denounce. Come back. Jeff, to the professors point if he takes the fifth, im not a lawyer give him immunity. So jeff, why would he take the fifth if that is the case . Because the muellers office will never give him immunity. They are not going to give him the opportunity to excuse from any criminal prosecution down the road. That is what immunity means, never be used against you. The idea that this central figure is going to be excused from any kind of criminal liability. If the Department Of Justice believes that a president cannot be indicted then why would they, did the mueller team somehow
fight that . More over it is not transaction immunity, it is use immunity. They cant use the fruits of the evidence in the criminal prosecution. I think the odds of mueller giving the president of the United States immunity are infinitesimal. It is not going to happen and the president can end this process overnight if he decides to take the fifth. Bad judgment. Bad judgment as the lawyers who told president clinton to testify. He shouldnt have taken the fifth. He should have paid the money. No president has taken the fifth and i dont believe any president will take the fifth. Although we know the fifth is not an admission of guilt to the american public. And that would just be something that i dont think this president will ever do. We shall see. Stay with us after a quick break. Every legacy comes with a burden, a standard to bear, an expectation to surpass. But thats the point. Bring us doubt, and well bring you the first car with true handsfree driving for the freeway. Bring us a challenge and well reinvent what it means to own a car. Bring us all your expectations and well defy them. Again and again and again. Find your next cadillac at cadillac. Com. Proven to protect Street Skaters and freestylers. Again and again and again. Stops up to 97 uv. Lasts through heat. Through sweat. Coppertone. Proven to protect. With tcalled audible. Le app you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love, outside. Binge better. Audible. Build your next big thing to run in more places, without recoding. The ibm cloud. The cloud for smarter business. Meeting between the Special Counsel and the president s lawyers back in march. The lawyers insisted the president wasnt obligated to speak with investigators. Mueller had a different take. This according to the Washington Post and four people familiar with the meeting. Back now with Allen Dershowitz and Jeffrey Toobin and gloria borger. We are learning is it really now you have his new legal team in place and they are trying to figure out what to do and there is a sense among a lot of his attorneys that the president ought to stay away from this. Ought to fight this, and the president s State Of Mind particularly after the raid of his personal attorney, Michael Cohens office is im not going to sit for an interview. Whereas the president initially was sort of all for it. I am going to sit with mueller, and i can do this. Right now his State Of Mind is no way, im going to do this. Professor, how long a fight could the president put up through courts to try to resist a subpoena . In general, since he is the president , the courts will allow him to defer and ultimately the Supreme Court which is more than a year even with expedited appeals and that gets him to a time when congress is controlled by the democrats. He will lose enough that he will have to give some testimony under the worst of circumstances without his lawyer being there with no restrictions. And he will have to at least provide some answers. So jeffrey, do you agree that
is one possible incentive for the president to not wait until the subpoena but agree to cooperate. My information is similar to glorias. They are just not going to put donald trump in front of Robert Muellers team voluntarily. They think it is a bad idea. And i think it is right that it is a bad idea. And they are going to wait for the subpoena to play out. I agree the president will ultimately lose in court. And it will take some number of months. That is a mixed blessing. I dont know the political calculation in that. It is good because it kicks the can down the road past the Midterm Election and it is bad because the Mueller Investigation goes on and on. I think ultimately, he is going it lose about whether he has to
answer questions. And then there is a question can he plead the fifth. Of course. He clearly can. And how will that look politically after he has been on the record saying only guilty people plead the fifth. His attorneys believe, quite frankly and they dont even want to talk about pleading the fifth at this point. His attorneys believe that politically, the president has succeeded in making the case. That the investigation itself are not credible and the investigators are not credible and he can take that argument and run with it through the Midterm Elections and at least get him through that and hopefully keep his control of the house. Professor . Well, that might help him in the court of Public Opinion among his people, it is not going to help him in the courts of law. The courts of law will compel
him to answer some questions, and perhaps the questions he may be most vulnerable on. But no legal claim, no constitutional claim about his business relations, what he did before he was president. There is some possible argument that he has some Executive Privilege claim. By the way, he may have waived some Executive Privilege. If you tweet and go public and you say things, and then say, oh, i wont answer questions about that, because i have Executive Privilege, there is a concept of waiver. And the president may have in advertently waived some of his Executive Privilege by tweeting and that can come back to bite him. Thanks very much. Coming up, remember that strange letter that doctor put out during the campaign. Test results, you are never going to guess who wrote that letter according to the doctor. I know, you can guess. But we will tell you ahead. At t provides edgetoedge intelligence, covering virtually every part of your retail business. So that if your customer needs shoes, hes got wide feet. With edgetoedge intelligence youve got near real time inventory updates. Hell find the same shoes in your store that he found online hell be one happy, very forgetful wide footed customer. At t provides edge to edge intelligence. It can do so much for your business, the list goes on and on. Thats the power of. If your customer also forgets socks you could send him a coupon for that item. Looking for a hotel that fits. Whoooo. Your budget . Tripadvisor now searches over. 200 sites to find you the. Hotel you want at the lowest price. Grazi, gino find a price that fits. Tripadvisor. Trump put the words in his mouth and dictated that letter. The actual quote from doctor bornstein, he dictated that whole letter. I didnt write the letter. Donald trump told him what to put in the letter and he wrote it up. He is admitting to some creative license. Contributed it to dark humor and refers to the movie fargo. It moves the truth in a different direction. He got the call from donald trump on that day. Crossing in a car with his wife. And trump was telling him, dictating to him the words that he was used in the letter. And bornstein was telling him, you can use this you cant use this. And they got to the office and trump signed it. And there was the letter that we
have all then read. That is bizarre, number one. It seems odd that a doctor would agree to be dictated a letter by his patient. Im not sure what it says about the doctor or the power mr. Trump had over the doctor. Has the white house responded to the doctors claim at all . Well, they had a close relationship. And certainly bornstein who is no longer the president s doctor feels betrayed by the president saying he was loyal to him and over those 35 years that he didnt reveal to his closest friends or neighbor that he was the president s, the then candidates doctor. So he was loyal. No, we have reached out to the white house and they have chosen not to respond. I dont understand what does he feel betrayed about . Reporter well he is saying in essence, yeah, comes down to
this raid that was carried out here over the Medical Records. Which we are about we are about to get into that. I jumped the horse on that. I do want to bring in dr. Bornstein saying his office was raided by the former body guard and a third quote large man. He tells nbc news that the raid happened. The doctor used extreme language to describe said raid. Listen. I feel raped. Thats how i feel, raped, frightened and sad. And what exactly were they looking for . Medical records, pictures,
anything they could find. They must have been here for 25 to 30 minutes and it created a lot of chaos. Drew, this whole thing is Business Czar to say the least. According to your source, this was not a raid. This took place more than a year ago. A source familiar with the hand off of these records saying this was nowhere near a raid. Completely has a different opinion of what happened. What it was was the president shortly after being sworn in saw or heard dr. Bornstein talking about his public, his health publicly. And the decision was made to get the president s Medical Records and bring them back to the white house. The president or the president s staff assigned Keith Schiller to do that. According to my source he
presented or brought a letter to the doctors house. Accompanied by a Trump Organization attorney. And they came in person because they wanted to collect the records then. They requested a copy of the records. In no way did they say this was a raid of any kind. They stayed for about 20 minutes. That seems to match what the doctor says. But they just have a completely different interpretation. This was a request for the president s Medical Records and those records were handed over. Dr. Bornstein willingly handed over te records at the end of the meeting. Yes. The source says the doctor, i will read you the quote. Bornstein making a big deal about the request and seemed flustered and couldnt operate
his copy machine. Bornstein couldnt work the copy machine. In fact he had trouble finding all the records. The office was described to me as being disheveled. And finally Keith Schiller said give me the hard copy and well go. And that is eventually what took place. Those personal Medical Records of President Trump were given to him. The hard copies and the two of them left. It was in the doctors right and he was right that he should have retained the original copies but he couldnt get the copy machine to work and that is why they were taken. This person, Keith Schiller, the president ial aide and the attorney did not rifle through any records or do any raids. They went to get the records and that is what they did. Bringing in alex back and dr. Sanjay gupta. Have you ever heard of such a thing . Is that even legal for a doctor to release something that was written by a president . No. I mean, never heard of such a thing. I dont know about the legality of it. It is certainly unprofessional. It is unethical. I havent heard of it. And we kind of anticipated or expected or not surprised by this. Not only because of the hyperbol Hyperbol Hyperbolic what i immediately thought of besides what was in the letter and the types of terms that were used. Also makes me question even more
what was not in the letter. If specific things are being told to say put in the letter then what was not in the letter. Not only with dr. Bornstein, but with dr. Ronny jackson. There was a lot of hyperbolic language used there as well and that is concerning. Because the language aside, you need to know everything. What do we know about the president s health right now . It is hard to say based on this new reporting. And alex, i understand dr. Bornstein told then Candidate Trump what he couldnt put in the letter as he was dictating it, right . Thats right. What we understand from dr. Bornstein, then Candidate Trump in 2015, was calling him up and giving him this grandiose language with lots of superlatives. And it sounds like something the
president would say. What bornstein said is trump was dictating these words and bornstein was saying you can say this, you cannot say this. And he definitely incorporated some of the language that the candidate wanted to include. And then he sort of put it into his own wording. So he got dictation in terms of the gist and some of the terminology, some of the phrasing and then he took some creative license and used as a mentioned, some of his dark humor infused it into that letter. So we have this amalgamation of both of these gentlemen. But the feeling behind it is coming from donald trump according to dr. Bornstein. What is the procedure for a president to obtain Medical Records from a former doctor. Or frankly anybody obtaining former Medical Records. Can you just take your medical
records . It is pretty interesting and it depends from state to state. The original copies are owned by the doctor, the hospital where the testing were performed. And patients can get copies of those Medical Records and they can correct inaccuracy. But in this case, going with an authorization, requesting Medical Records, getting copies of the Medical Records and having them for the patients, that is normal. You are entitled to those copies of the Medical Records but you have to give the authorization. Thank you very much. On the u. S. Border tonight. Hoping of course to be admitted
to the United States. Cnn has been following the socalled caravan for some time now. Latest on what is going on next. At tmobile, were committed to keeping military families connected. Then momma ninja asked her littlest baby ninja, did you finish your dinner . So in honor of military appreciation month. Active duty and veterans get half off select Samsung Galaxy phones. Nondrowsy claritin 24 hour relief when allergies occur. Day after day, after day. Because life should have more wishes and less worries. Feel the clarity and live claritin clear. And we got to know the friends of our friends. R the friends. Then our old friends from middle school, our mom, our ex
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before they move forward in the process to seek asylum in the United States of america, a process that can take weeks in many cases, months before they have any sort of conclusion. Youve been with this caravan now for, i think, nearly a month now. Has anyone that youve been talking to made it into processing . Reporter we actually do know several of the people who have made it. In particular we have been following one mother. She is a pregnant mother of two. Shes got a twoyearold as well as a sixyearold. Her name is gabriella. I have seen her as shes been on a bus for more than 50 hours, as she has climbed her way up onto a Freight Train on a mound of scrap metal where her children have even had cuts as a result. Ive seen her sleep on Shelter Floors at night, had problems of sickness for herself as a pregnant woman as well as her two children. She was actually one of the
first to make it in. What i was told is that the Border Patrol officer came out, said, we can take eight people. The organizers said, can you give us a little more clarification as to who you want . And he said in order to avoid chaos, women and children. Thats when the migrants themselves chose the first eight that would go in. And from what some of the migrants told me, they said, gabriella, go. So she was among the first to go inside to seek asylum. She said she is fleeing honduras because of violence. I have spoken to her relatives today. They have not heard from her yet, so chances are its a bit difficult to track for right now, but shes likely still in detention waiting for her moment to speak to an Asylum Officer and make her claims. Leyla santiago, thank you very much. Up next, more on the Breaking News that the special Counsel Robert Mueller raised the possibility of a
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