i have said and i believe that there is a good possibility that sometime in the next 20 years, we will have a woman president. >> hillary clinton locked many first in her rule -- her role as first lady. as she considers another bid for the white house herself, hillary clinton story. here to tell us the story for the next 90 minutes are to journalist who know the clintons well by covering them for many years. a biographer of hillary clinton, her book in 2000 was called "hillary's choice or e." welcome to both of you. here, i want to play a bit of video from 1992. is 105 or six hillary clinton clips that has become implemented of her. this is where she talked about how she might approach the role of first lady. let's listen. [video clip] primarily children but other issues. it is not true and i don't know what else to say. i suppose i could have stayed home and baked cookies, but i decided to fulfill my profession. >> they really were promoting that she would be a very involved first lady. how did that work out for her? >> they made a lot of mistakes in the beginning. the public was not prepared for the two-for-one presidency and i don't know if they ever will be, but i think it was stunning to suddenly see this really intelligent, outspoken, totally confident woman who had been given the role of copresident. if we had a copresident, that might be a cool thing because partners in power are more and more happening. the 50'sad gone from to the 70's in her four years and was suddenly plunged into a new women's movement. it actually took a hillary to raise the president. she did have to keep them in the channel because he was brilliant but all over the place, and reckless. to swallow all of that was an overkill for the american public. it took her almost six years to really figure out how to do it. inad an occasion to meet her the ladies room and she kind of let down her hair and said i just don't know what to do, nothing i do works. she said i understand that i'm really threatening to man. the velocity of change between men and women and the way the country is going from one generation to the boomers is overwhelming, especially to men. i'm threatening to them, and i don't know what to do about it. >> was she a transitional figure? >> i would say she was almost one-of-a-kind. the road will -- role model she modeled herself after was eleanor roosevelt, but there was a great difference between the two. hillary clinton saw from the beginning that they could get to further places together than they could apart. whereas elinor was active as a first lady, she was really on her own track him a different whereresident roosevelt. bill clinton relied on hillary for much of his policy from the very beginning, going back to arkansas. it was a reality to them, and his presidency -- >> we said at the outset that hillary clinton wasn't first lady who was quite diverse. she was the first first lady to have a law degree. she was first to have an office in the west wing, where policy is made. she was later the first to testify before a grand jury in the investigations that were ramping up. she was the first first lady elected united states senator, the first to run for president, and the first to serve as secretary of state. to theou have to go back beginning. hillary clinton was born in chicago as hillary diane rodham. tell me about her childhood and what was significant about it. >> the most significant thing was the way she saw herself, which was from the age of eight star.as a her fantasy was, and she wrote this, was to dance in the sun and spend under the sun and imagine that god was beaming the sundown only on her and that heavenly cameras were following and filming her every move. she made that a reality. for many years now, maybe not cameras, but nonetheless are following her every move. she made it happen. inher father had worked scranton, pennsylvania in the factories and this, mines in the neighborhood of chicago. her mother was a traditional housewife. where does this come from in hillary? her mother at call traditional housewife. she was very strong and independent. republican, and 99.5% right. he was in the deep heart of the midwest middle-class. he was very sheltered in that sense. she had her father's politics but it was sort of incidental to knew she thought she was. she was very strongly a methodist in that sense throughout her life, but it started in her early teenage years. very progressive person to challenge hillary to think about the world outside. that was when she blossomed and changed her politics. >> you told a story about a minister who would take his wife and kids to chicago to see how other people lived. >> she was enormously affected by that. she knew then that park ridge was a bubble and she wanted to know more about how the real world work. i have to say that her mother told me a significant story about her childhood. when they moved to park ridge that vicious social hierarchy of four-year-olds did not admit her, and a little girl named susie used to be her up every day. she came back crying, and one day her mother said, this house is no place for cowards. you go back out there and not that girl out. hillary came back home and said now i get to play with the boys. >> and she has been doing it ever since. as a preteen she was reading barry goldwater. jill very young to be reading that. i did not read those books as a teenager. she had a high school teacher who was very conservative who is influencing her in the other direction. >> she did have some conservative teachers, but so did all of us. i don't think that teacher had a profound influence, no more so than her father. but it was enough to have her looking in those directions lyrically, but not so much internally. i wouldn't say the teachers had more influence on her than the useminiatures at the -- ministers at the methodist church, or her mother. >> she wanted to have equilibrium. she used a carpenter's level as a visual to say keep the bubble in the middle. she also wanted to warn her, ,ever get divorced, because she dorothy rodham, her parents had been divorced and they abandoned her. givellary never agreed to the president of divorce, even though at one point he wanted it. the other amazing thing about hillary was when she met martin luther king, introduced by don minister. methodist she heard him in chicago and that there were no black people that she saw in her class in part ridge. she read up on it and realized that the emancipation proclamation had not really been carried out, and she wanted to do something. on hot moment was at wellesley when she heard about martin luther king being shot. moment.aha that is when she turned off from being a little goldwater girl to -- a a real progressive real liberal. she would graduate the next year. i think that is the moment she turned into an activist. hundreds of thousands of people of that generation, when they invested in all of that. >> how did she get to wellesley, this midwest girl? >> she was very smart. she was president of her high school class. it was an all girls school in .uburban boston her parents drove her out in the cadillac. >> it made her father furious when he realized it was a snobby eastern liberal girls school, and he never visited her there until her graduation. to me whatting thing she wrote a number of letters to a high school friend that she gave me. she had a four-year identity crisis. she thought she had to select her identity and she laid them out like a smorgasbord. she said should i be a pseudo- hippie? that was ok, because she didn't care about her appearance. that she was a moral methodist. she read catcher in the right and hated it. she said maybe i am a misanthrope. can you be a compassionate misanthrope? of.she was, sort should she be an alienated academic? she finally came to a decision. she chose her identity, which she hated looking inward. she couldn't stand introspection and her father had taught her that any expression of emotionality was a sense of weakness. she wrote about that, no emotion. she decided she would help other people lead their best lives and help to save the world. >> she became president of the student body, is that correct? quick she did. quick she gave a speech at wellesley that actually thrust her into the national spotlight. what was that all about? did not -- didon not want to veer from a moderate saidlican -- he got up and we don't believe in just materialism and competitiveness. we are looking for ecstatic experiences. body just gave an uproar of applause, and the faculty was mortified. it got her into life magazine and she was already a star. then i asked, what was the most ecstatic experience of your 20's? she said falling in love with bill clinton. she said, he wasn't afraid of me. this was the essence of hillary, all of us exploring a world that none of us understand. ,here are some things we feel competitive corporate life, is not the way of life for us. are searching for more immediate, ecstatic, and penetrating modes of living. >> so as you know if you have been watching us along the way, the thing that makes this program different and interesting for us at the table are your questions, and we welcome them three different ways. you can call us, the phone numbers are on the screen. you can post a comment on our facebook page. there is already quite a lively discussion going on about hillary clinton on our facebook .ge, and you can tweet us whether wants to know or not hillary wanted to drop out of college but her mother encouraged her to stay. did she ever consider dropping out of college? thatdon't remember reading in her biography. she did go through a year of depression. there were a lot of highborn society girls at wellesley and that was not her bag at all. she was't sure that smart enough at the beginning, so she was depressed. i think it was in her sophomore year, so she may have considered it. how did she get to yale law school? what was the decision to study law? >> somebody who wanted to have an active life effecting change, that is what they would do. 1969,t to law school in actually a year before bill clinton did. she took a five-year program to get through yell law school. she wanted to be a lawyer more than he ever did. it was the way to the life that , effecting social change. school was a very socially active place during that time. it was like everything was rigid. >> which you have considered harvard law as well? >> yes. >> what was the environment for women studying law at yell law school when she arrived? >> there were not very many. she was quite unique there as she has been at every venue. she didn't speak an awful lot prejudice. she was just too darn smart. when she and bill decided to enter a contest with the barristers union present their case for a live jury, she did all the work and all the writing and bill did the presenting. he was good at the presenting, but he goofed off during the preparation. when hillary, who made a real impression on one of the judges, for the hired her impeachment committee on richard nixon. it sort of captured everything that was to come in a way. a fellow law school student described it as to kill a mockingbird and hillary was the logger. >> hillary clinton talks about how she and bill clinton met. let's watch. [video clip] standing out in the hallway and it was one of those moments that just clicks. i was sitting there and i just started staring at him. i thought, i really like the way he looks. i need to get to know him. then he caught my eye and begin staring back at me. here i am in the library, not reading. he is actually surrounded by people who are talking at him, not talking back. finally i thought this is ridiculous. i am in this class with this person, so i put my books down and i went up and said if i'm going to keep looking at you in your going to keep looking at me, we ought to at least know each other's name. he says he could not remember his name. that makes me feel so good when he said that. sort of stumble out, i'm bill clinton. do you want me to go on about this? then it was the last day of class and we both showed up for the last day. i was walking out the door any kind of got to the door at the same time and said where are you going? i said i'm going to go register for my classes next year. so we walked together and stood in this in less line and we talked and talked. i finally got up to the line and the registrar, this wonderful woman who i have kept in touch with said hillary, what are you going to take? and i started to fill it out and she said bill, why are you here? you registered yesterday. know,ple always want to what was it that attracted these two people so strongly to one another? they seem so different in many ways. >> hillary had not been popular with boys in a boy-girl since. ,he liked big, handsome hunks and here was this big, handsome redhaired guy with elvis sideburns, and he had this southern charm. looking after her after class like a lovesick hound dog panting behind her. it really made her feel like a woman. then she realized how brilliant ,e was, and how they clicked and how she could really do something with this type. she could really bring him out. when she left the watergate impeachment committee to go out to little rock, fayetteville, her best friend was saying you are crazy, you are leaving this fabulous career in washington where you are in line to be in a political life. she said, bill clinton is going to be president some day, and i'm going to marry him. >> from bill clinton's perspective, obviously there were a lot of women who were interested in him. during that time, his roommate he wouldould say prepare and prep them for times when hillary was coming over because he wanted to impress her so much. not put up with what she called his arkansas palaver. she was the one who had the guts to say come off it, bill. they actually did have a lot in common. they had the same ambitions. they thought they could get places together that they could not get to a park. they share a love of politics and movies and books and intellectual things. there was a spark there, that i think hillary from the beginning was head over heels for bill. i think he just saw her as someone different and someone who could really help him and be a partner. >> how long did it take from that first meeting to marriage, and how does the relationship progressed? >> it took several years. what happened in between was quite fascinating. when bill was running for his first congressional race, the campaign was chaotic, and he was losing. hillary dropped everything and flew out there and came into the little campaign area. she was a college girl that he was having a romance with out the side door. she came in and said what is going on? , the night before the vote, they knew there were going to lose. she and the campaign manager and his wife all got locked in a room together to find out what was really going wrong here. hillary was giving them the iird degree and the wife said even had to take bill clinton's girlfriend as my babysitter to get him out of the way. she started swearing and cursing and throwing things. the next thing you know, the window was broken. sat through the whole thing, nobody ever mentioned him? with capacity of a buddha -- bill clinton. that set the tone for the way , itdealt with all of those was never his fault, it was always somebody else's fault. >> when she came out to arkansas he was running for the senate. it set the tone for the differences between them. easyclinton was the professor that gave everyone a b plus at the worst. that is because they were all going to be voters in arkansas sunday, he didn't want to upset them. hillary was completely organized . her classes were tough. the dean of the law school said if he was going to hire one of the clintons to be a law professor, it would have been hillary. >> talk about her experience on the impeachment panel after watergate. one of the few women, one of the law -- youngest lawyers. -- defined it as one of the most important or formative experiences of her life. how did it shake her? >> it was a historic moment in american history. for -- it may him and -- sheen he was a judge had met him at yale. the congressional hotel is where the staff was working. her job was not the most exciting. were notthe staffers getting into the grid of the scandal itself. her job was to look at the constitutionality of impeachment. one of her bosses was ernie nussbaum. an examination of close of power and the manipulation of power and the abuse of power. you could not work in that office without learning a lot about that. >> were going to take you next to fayetteville and the house that bill clinton bought for proposed, ande where they got married. let's watch. >> this is where the clintons lived when they were professors in fayetteville. bill was driving her down this road to go to the airport and they saw the house and it was for sale. hillary pointed at the house and said that is a cute house. bill took her to the airport and picked her up from the airport about a month later and said i bought your dream house, you have to marry me and live there with me. that was the fourth time he had proposed. and they were married right there. there were nine people at the wedding. it was a very small, intimate ceremony. announcement made no mention of the fact that hillary was retaining her own name. bill did not seem to be bothered by this. when they told hillary's mother, she cried. we have a replica of her wedding dress here at the museum. it was $53 off the rack and it was made by jessica mcclintock, a popular designer at the time. it was a very humble beginning for the clintons here in fayetteville. they were both making $14,000 a year as law professors. out here in sleep the summers because they did not have air conditioning. this is the clinton kitchen. she referred to it as the room in the house that desperately needed to be remodeled. this is what it looked like when the clintons were here. they had the harvest gold appliances. of course hillary never cooked. she said bill would occasionally fry anes. -- fry things. the formal dining room the clintons called the war room. they used it as campaign headquarters for the attorney general campaign, which was the first successful political campaign in 1976. ande was a map of arkansas hillary had the idea to visit each county three times. fayetteville was a place where they readily settled in. they really thought they had arrived. they had got married, bought a house, they had successful jobs as law professors and they had finished law school. they had reached a plateau where they had reached a lot of the things they set goals for in life. we are going to get some of our first callers in here and then we will pick up our story. let's begin with james in oakland, california, our first caller tonight. loving this series. one question for gail sheehy. she referred to a time when hillary clinton -- agreed to divorce bill clinton. i'm also curious about where she had major policy differences than bill clinton. thank you. clintons 1989 when bill with -- he hadht pulled back from running for governor again and hillary had explored whether or not she should run for governor in the polls show that she was not going to be getting many votes at all. bill clinton fell in love with another woman, really fell in love with her. this was not a bimbo or a lounge singer. this was a woman, quality professional whose family was in arkansas and in politics. he asked hillary for a divorce, and she consulted with her minister and herself and came back and said nothing doing. that's not going to happen. and this affair is going to end. and that was the end of it. they never brought that up again and they found their own arrangement much later, which we can talk about later. some policye differences. major ones was more a nuanced and complete difference. early in the second term when bill clinton declared that the american government was over and was reforming welfare. 's mentorodham clinton was marian wright edelman. she was very much opposed to what they were trying to do in terms of welfare reform and he quit the administration. that was one of the major differences. >> from brooklyn, you are on the air. will you ask the question again? i want to know what drives hillary clinton to want to become the first lady? >> isn't something she had aspired to? you said from the beginning she knew that bill clinton was going to be president. quick she knew that he had it in him to be president, and she wanted to be part of that. star, and shebe a thought she would hitch our wagon to his star as a way to become a star herself, and she was right. >> we have had quite a few young callers calling in. chad crabtree is on twitter and influential is religion and her faith. as visible oreem vocal with it as president clinton. >> i think it is more important to her. she was a very moral methodist. a very buttoned up proved in in many ways,rude socially conservative in behavior. faith got her through some of the worst times. she really relied on it, and also the inspiration of eleanor roosevelt. >> bill clinton was a baptist, hillary was a methodist. hillary used her religion more as an excellent nation in her active life. her motto was do the best you can, the most you can, as often as you can. that was part of our methodist motto. >> good evening. i haven't talked to you since i doubt mckinley. these are two icons and i have read both your works. i really enjoyed your work on character back in 1988. my question was, in response to a caller last week with mrs. bush, i think the question was over the relationship between the first lady's during the transition. i remember a quote of mrs. bush and i would like to get both your comments on it. after the informal tour of the inte house, mrs. bush response to reporters questions, i think the reporter said, do you have any advice for mrs. clinton? and mrs. bush said avoid reporters like the plague, and if they quote you, make sure they heard you. so i would like to find out from both of you in terms of what hillary clinton -- i don't remember her having much of a comment then, but i would like to get your take on the transition, and thank you so much for your work. >> she certainly did not avoid question. it is interesting that barbara bush on your program talked about how much she likes bill clinton now. i don't think that was necessarily true then. time they became quite good friends. >> i had an experience with in 1992, actually the day after she and bill appeared on 60 minutes to address the gennifer flowers issue. hillary in a tiny little plane to pierre, south before she was going to appear at a roast. they're on the television screen .as jennifer flowers i was right next to hillary and i watched her expression. , then iota of surprise just directing her secretaries to get them on the phone. ride into battle mode. roast,pt into the charmed the whiskers off the , went to the phone again and came back boiling mad. we got on the plane and for the next half hour, she staked out what would be their battle plan for the rest of their time in the white house. she said they are now doing paid character assassination, and run against the press. the second one was a big mistake. did shut the access to reporters off, which really alienated them a great deal. and she stonewalled all the time, and she lied much of the time. and the press very early on a glassgiving them half-full and started giving them glass half empty. she had decided, she had made a choice. -- theyeither going to were symbiotic, joined at the hip. agreement, unspoken she didn't ask him for any details about the women, and he didn't ask her about whitewater or her cattle futures or her investments. >> we have got to spend a little bit of time with the arkansas years. we will not do it justice, but dave murdock asks how did the locals treat hillary? we use that as a jumping off point to say after the successful attorney general bid, he went on, bill clinton, to be elected to five nonconsecutive terms as governor of the state of arkansas. what is important about hillary clinton time -- hillary clinton's time during that period? in some ways as she did as first lady of the united states. when bill clinton for started relying on her to make his most important policy issues. the precursor to health care in the white house was education reform in arkansas, where he appointed hillary to lead the effort to inform the arkansas school system, which was so bad arkansas was 49 instead of 50th on test scores. she came into the first lady of arkansas as hillary. rodham.llary part of the campaign against who was sort of this woman would not take her husband's last name, and that was so un- arkansan. will clinton was called the protean character who could adapt to any setting. hillary was also adaptable. years, i first two think she looked to get out of work in arkansas and she was part of the whole social and political scene. >> a lot of it had to do with image. she had not given any thought to a dressarance, buying off the rack. she dressed kind of like a hippie. she didn't wear makeup, her hair was not fixed, and she really spruced up. she pulled herself together and began to look more like an acceptable southern lady, and s and do more of the first lady duties. but she was also supporting him. the big thing she gave bill clinton was money. she was the breadwinner while he was making a very paltry salary for many years. partner at the law firm three years after she retired when she was back in the governor's office, because that was now a very big in action. >> a little parallel with the obama family, where michelle obama was the log your earning more money to allow her husband to pursue -- >> the difference is that hadelle during that time been happy with her husband being a political guy going off to springfield illinois. >> gail sheehy, in arkansas there were the seeds of things that she would take to the white house, and you referenced them. decisionsexplain what he made that would end up becoming investigations. billing law firm and during that time, investing in futures were all things americans across the country would begin to hear about when they mated to the white house. talk about her involvement in these decisions that she made that would become national. >> the real story here is about the decision to allow a special prosecutor. that was a big debate between bill and hillary. >> i'm looking at what she actually did their -- >> to this day, i don't think anybody really knows. she was investing. she had a hotshot investor who got her into cattle futures. at theiend of their university when the clintons her husband was very sharp with trading. that is how they got into that. make $100,000 on cattle futures. she got in trouble with the rose law firm records and actions involving jim mcdougal who was actually bill clinton's friend. >> it was sort of the morass of arkansas politics they got trapped in. >> john is watching us from michigan. what is your question? >> like everyone, i have been following this series of programs and i want to commend you, susan, and all of c-span for such wonderful journalism. it has been great. to go back toe 1972, and i believe that bill clinton was in charge of the campaign, and hillary and a man who is now a historian also worked on that mcgovern campaign in texas in 1972. thatwas the first foray the two of them, bill and hillary, got together. am i correct in that? one other thing connected with that, i think i heard this, and i wonder if this is true or if it is improbable, i believe bill clinton said or wrote in one of his book that in the course of cokie roberts dad, hale boggs, who was then the house majority leader, to ,he airport and dropped him off because he was a campaign aide, and said goodbye to him and everything. that was the last that hale boggs was ever seen. we will get a response to your question. >> a big it was hugely informative because this was a very new kind of politics, which they believed in. mcgovern had the kind of platform that they were interested in. they thought they were going to bring that new politics to a larger america. i think that inspired them. >> they also met betsy right in that campaign. furious with hillary for advancing bill clinton's career instead of striking out on her own, but hillary pulled back from that. she was more interested in making it as a twosome. >> taylor branch and bill clinton were very young and they were running texas. they had been hired by gary hart to run the state. texas was a political mess. there was a huge split between the progressives and the conservatives. it was an enormous learning experience for both the clintons. hillary was in san antonio and bill was in austin, running the campaign. he took george mcgovern out to to meet with lbj. clinton learned a lot in that campaign. learn how you can lose. from that moment on, bill clinton's concept was how you could be a moderate progressive and still hang onto something in america as it was changing. >> during his term as governor, the clintons increased their national profile, leading to the 1992 presidential campaign. the mentioned earlier that it was a bruising one. of rossg the arrival perot's candidacy in the campaign. it brought bill clinton and hillary clinton to the white house. after they arrive, there was the announcement about health care. we have a couple of clips to show you that help demonstrate the intention of the first lady's involvement in health care. let's watch. [video clip] hillary has agreed to share this task force and she will be sharing some of the heat i expect to demonstrate. in the coming months, the american people will learn that we have a first lady of many talents, but most of all who can bring people together around on flex issues to hammer out consensus and get things done. >> as the president said, and as he believed, this is not a partisan issue. it is not an ideological battle. it is a problem to be solved that affects all of us. and i'm looking forward over the next weeks and months to not only working with you, but to watching you craft the most important social policy that our nation will have confronted in many decades. >> a lot of people thought i should not be making recommendations about legislation or that i shouldn't be involved in working on behalf of what my husband asked you to work on, which was one is hit -- was one of his primary objectives. they felt that was somehow inappropriate, that if you exercise influence, do it behind the scenes where nobody can see you. i find that curious. i like to know what goes on in front of the scenes, because i'm very much the kind of person who believes that you should say what you mean and mean what you say and take the consequences. just like anybody else who is involved in public life. emily on twitter says what and why was the difference in hillary clinton's health care proposal failing compared to obama care? why did that not work for the clintons? i would say that one of the contradictions in hillary's statement, she talked about how she liked to be open and upfront. one of the big problems with that effort to push through health care was that it was so secretive and congress did not feel they were part of it. of any sort of major initiative through congress is difficult to matter who is controlling it. there was pretty much antipathy money spent by insurance companies to defeat it. obama was able with the democratic majority to just barely get it through by working with them. one of the major problems with the clintons effort is there was not the feeling they were actually partners in it and that they had just concocted it in secret meetings. it, themportant was appointment of hillary clinton ultimately in its trajectory? >> i think it was a long hangover for the clintons. you can see from the video that a modulated on with voice. she speaks without notes and paragraphs, all the skills that we have seen her practice all along, but she never said i'm not an expert, but. she never showed any deference to the people on this committee, one of the most important committees in washington, to say i look over to your expertise. know, i've studied, i've talked to thousands of americans, and this is what we need to do. think she got off on the wrong foot with members of congress. said, then everything was in secret, many, many meetings, and then this giant thing with thousands of pages was dropped on the table. the same complaints, the same opposition from republicans on includingle score, will americans be guaranteed they can keep their health care plan if they like it? the key was in her defense when she said i don't understand why i could make policy just like any other public official. she was a public official. 1994, the republicans took control for the first time in several decades. i don't want to do a bill clinton presidency discussion but i want to frame this question in terms of how it affected hillary clinton's record. republicans took over the investigation. can you talk about that? the defeat in 1994 was to the defeats exactly like the in 1980 when they lost the governorship. they had to recover in the same way. they had to think of what the apology would be, how to get back into the game. even though they were not on the ballot in 1994, it that defeat was the same as any other for them. everything started to unravel from there. >> we will talk more about the charges and the investigations later on. the decision to put hillary in charge of health care, the uprising against it which then had an effect on the -- on the election, which then change the course of the presidency. >> other causes that she was involved in continually were women's and also issues. she published a book during this time and it became another phrase him of money with her, "it takes a village." >> i followed her on that book tour, and the public loved it. that contest was really hillary's. it was her form of family values. we need to take the village to support -- that women who could work in have a family at the same time would be productive in the community. it is not all just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. she was mocked for it by the press for a while, but she was so popular on the book tour, and her book became a big best seller. she was able to rehabilitate herself with that book, and then became a book writer among her many other talents, which she continues to use. she did win a grammy award. >> sort of like barack obama's nobel peace prize. >> hillary clinton held the lobby fore new summit passage of the foster care independence act. >> she also called out the military on agent orange and made them finally admit that this was a disease that was the .esult of warfare in vietnam >> let's go to jason next in louisville, kentucky. >> thank you for doing this special and also thanks to c- span. not really a question, just a comment around the historical significance of hillary clinton as secretary of state. specifically that she made the -- bringing equality of the gay community to the forefront. one way she did that was with her historic speech before the human rights council in geneva where she famously said dave writes are human rights. much as she did in beijing regarding women's rights -- gay rights are human rights. at thatot have someone level to take that stand and really make that push. >> thank you for calling in tonight. talking about her interest in children's issues, we have not talked about the clintons child, chelsea, who was born in 1980. a whirl about -- a word about their style as parents and how they raised her peer that she could see when they got to the white house that they were protecting her. part of the story until there were certain times when they needed to present her as a family. saye is nothing negative to about their parenting, and there shouldn't be. they were excellent parents. they showered her with knowledge and books and love, and she became very much like parts of both of them, the better parts of each of them, i would say. >> when you watched how they managed to give her something of a normal life in that very public environment, what were your observations? awkward yearsthe in middle adolescence when she was kind of gawky, but she carried herself with confidence that they must have instilled in her while she was going through that awkward stage. she was devoted to her mother, and then her father used to come home and have dinner with her all the time when hillary was traveling, so he would have his saturday night date with chelsea. that was one of the things that was most heartbreaking for him when had really gone over the line with monica lewinsky. of lost chelsea for a while. >> there was a time when he was governor of arkansas and chelsea was asked, what does your father do? she said he talks on the telephone. >> hillary clinton actually inte a book while she was the role, an invitation to the white house, at home in history. man i ask each of you to comment about her stewardship of the white house and how they used the white house politically to advance their goals? would you talk about her interest in the history of the white house and how she approached it? >> she started america's treasures preservation and did a lot of research and found a lot of things and put them on display. she did restoration of the treaty room, several of the rooms in the white house. she was not as active as jacqueline kennedy was, but she was still pretty active. i don't know much about their social entertaining. they had some big white house didn'trties, but they use the white house nearly as much as the kennedys who made it a cultural center. she was very busy doing other policy things. >> we know about the lincoln bedroom. they brought in a lot of musicians. bill clinton loved music, much like president obama and in variousinging musicians, the clintons did as well. they also turned it into something of a sleepover place. a lot of friends stayed there often. no one actually lived there like under roosevelt. donors would big get rewarded with a night in the lincoln bedroom. ex let me take a couple of calls and then we have to talk about the investigations and legal as ales of the clintons political partnership. ellie, you are on the air. >> you had a funny look on your face there. they put the fear of the lord in the press and they would not get called back to the white house if they printed something that barbara bush was not in agreement with. barbara bush new her husband had been having an affair and so did a number of the press, but they would not acknowledge that. lied thatinton, she she knew a lot of things. why do you suppose the press and the public would be much more willing to accept the grandmotherly barbara bush, who was very steely, as opposed to hillary clinton who was quite a bit more vulnerable? i am not sure i understand the question. hillary was furious that george bush reputedly had a jennifer, too. when i did an interview with hillary clinton, she interrupted and raised this issue that she had been sitting with the head of the atlanta newspaper and she brought this up. this woman said, why doesn't the media investigate george bush's jennifer? they are just going to circle the wagons because that is what the republicans do. she planted this in my tape recorder. barbara bush slammed back and said, how dare she talk about my husband that way. hillary had to eat humble pie and she was depicted on the cover of the new york post saying, well, shut my mouth. it was just before the new york primary. albany.ived in bill clinton had to step in front of a very rare appearance apologizing for hillary. he did it with a slight smile on his face. was beside herself that they could get away with this kind of thing, but she couldn't. >> the story of the clinton administration was a story of investigations and scandals. let me show you a clip from 1994 in their white house years. she talks about the level of trust. >> in the recent news reports about the first ladies future earnings and with all of these whitewater allegations, many americans are having a hard time with your credibility. is there a fundamental distrust of the clintons? not. hope not -- >> i hope that would be something i would regret very much. we are transition figures. we do not fit easily into a lot of our pre-existing categories. having been independent, having made decisions, it is a little country toor us as a make the transition of having a sitting in this house. to some extent, the expectations and the demands have changed. i am trying to find my way through it and trying to figure out how best to be true to myself and how to fulfill my responsibilities to my husband and daughter and the country. suitat is the famous pink press conference where she talked for several hours. she was embroiled in controversy at that point. what she said has a lot of merit to it. she was facing things that no first lady had done before. some of it was part of the culture of the moment and some of it was self-induced. you cannot really separate the two. they did many things that did not help them. that they were being judged in ways different than anybody before them. ,> i will show two more clips 1998, where we see a transition from the beginning of their unto the end of the year. january of 1990 eight, let's watch. >> the story here for anybody willing to find it and write about it and explain it is this thatright wing conspiracy has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for president. >> these past months have been a torturous process of coming to terms with what i did. i understand that accountability demands consequences and i am prepared to accept them. painful of the combination of the congress -- it would pale in comparison to the consequences of the pain i have caused my family. there is no greater agony. >> quite a long year. what is important for people to know about that year? a year elapsed before bill clinton was finally able to come clean. to hillary, and then to the country. that was a torturous year for both of them. she tried to change the story. it is about the right wing conspiracy, not about my husband. she did not know or allow herself to know that monica lewinsky was really a sexual relationship until bill clinton actually had to sit her down and tell her. and then she threw things at him and exploded. we saw how the family split apart and it was very tragic to watch. for most of that year, she was right in there fighting for him. the attorney working with them on that damage control, when they were sitting there preparing defense, the body language must've been pretty hostile. he said, not at all. they were holding hands. they were totally affectionate. they were in this together. when crisis engulfed them, they would be like it was a war. they were in the foxhole together. bombs were exploding all around and it was their battle buddy. what would also happen when things are rough to -- when things are wrapped it -- erupted, when she would turn into a lioness and sit down to make the battle plans, though clinton would reward her with affection, intimacy. that was when she got the closest to him. loop. a it was not all bad for hillary when things erupted. >> that is exactly right. there was the cycle to the relationship went up -- when one was up, the other would be down. it kept them together through all of this. 1992, -- in 1999, things fractured. the thing to remember is they stayed together. one of the ironies is the clintons have stayed together when families like the gores split apart. >> that is watching us from cleveland. >> i have been watching the series. i heard that hillary clinton garnered or earned a lot of --alty in terms of people people that work for her, and that is why there has been no cal law stories -- tell all stories because she has earned that kind of loyalty. does that speak to her genuineness? her character? i would think that would be an admirable characteristic. i was fortunate enough to shake hands and meet them when they were running -- when he was running in 1992. that was quite a thrill. if you could speak to her character. you ananted to show interesting illustration. tot yesterday -- it speaks these interrelationships that hurley clinton and bill clinton have forged throughout their many years of public life. it is called madame secretary of the universe. you can see her as the center of the sun. >> both hillary and legal -- and bill kept notes on people. they had files. even if they were visiting a military base one year and coming back the next year, they would know to ask -- did your wife have the baby yet? hillary, important for the women she brought into her family. she would treat them almost like family members, really pay attention to their ups and downs and when they needed help. to loyalty that she showed anthony weiner's wife. that was syrian deering, i think. -- that was very endearing, i think. having a hillary land and wonderful women, really smart, supporting her and her loyalty to them has been important. there is a downside. ,er chief of staff for a while she kept patty on as the campaign director. patty was not ready for prime time. a lot of things went wrong because of her. david meredith, we have about 20 minutes left and so much to cover. we left the story with bill clinton's troubles, which led to his being a second president being impeached. hillary clinton was considering a bid for the united states senate. will you talk about her decision to become a candidate? how did she pull that off? the last time we were on tv together, it was on meet the press in 1999 and 10 asked us whether we thought hillary would ever run for office and we both said yes. that day, the head of the democratic senate campaign committee, started talking about hillary running for the senate. that.k she had her eye on because of bill clinton's troubles, she was frustrated in those last couple of years and was looking to go out on her own. they had risen together as far as they could for 25 years and now was her turn. but even more than that -- >> , the veryabout that day the impeachment vote was bill clinton stopped in to say hello to her guests and hillary did not even look up. they did not want anything to do with them. hillary did everything she good to line up the docucks. now she was moving on and this was the biggest passage in her life. i want independence. i have to have it. she was 53 years old. i do not think it will take another -- with the current generation, it will not take that long. started her campaign before she left the white house, moved to new york, started a whole new life. she began to move away and develop a separate channel. they never got divorced, but they found a way to cohabit in the universe. >> what distinguished her in terms of her eight years in the senate? >> she was very well-liked in the senate. i did not think you could point to any specific legislation, although early in her first term, 9/11 happened. she was the senator from new york were that took place. that hurt her in 2008 was the vote in 2003 about invading iraq. she supported it. you could see the connection between being the connection between being a senator from new york were the twin towers were hit and her vote a couple of years later. one can make the case that the vote cost her the democratic nomination. gave a strong speech opposing the iraq war won the progressive vote in iowa. >> from the time she had been considering the run for the senate, did she have her eye on the presidency? early 2000asked in -- when we would have a woman president. she said 2008. >> she thought she would be the one. >> here is 2008 in new hampshire. this is a pretty familiar issa video. >> bash piece of video. >> it is not easy. i could not do it if i did not passionately believe it was the right thing to do. opportunities from this country and i do not want to see us fall backwards. [applause] >> why did that campaign fail? >> it was a mess. the campaign itself had all of these different factions of hillary people and build people and a lot of disagreements and tactical errors. although that had to do in terms of whether they were focused on caucus states. in the end, it always comes down to the candidates themselves. the clip shows hillary at a point where barack obama is vote.g the emotion his speeches, the energy that he had. hillary is considered too much of a machine. -- it was a little bit too late. >> absolutely right, david. said, you cannot run as a woman. you have to run as a man. iowa, ajust lost in terrible shock to her. .he comes to new hampshire how do you do it day after day? that kind of got to her. it was hillary unplugged for once. au saw little bit of being human and a woman and then she got slammed for crying. she did not cry, she just choked up a little bit. >> ida is in west palm beach, florida. >> thank you for taking my call. we spoke when you had the series on jackie kennedy. question.uick does the panel feel she will run again for the presidency considering all of the scrutiny she went through the first time? run, is hernot health going to be a factor? thank you for the serious. -- series. >> she cannot not run unless she has a serious health problem. she now has the former obama machine, project usa -- is that what it is called? >> which is obama's people. >> she has ready for hillary, a grassroots operation that has raised almost a couple of million dollars. she cannot disappoint all of these people. she has had so much scrutiny and here we are scrutinizing her all over again. i think she is bulletproof on a lot of what has gone on. >> there were a lot of people who voted for barack obama. a couple of years after that were thinking, maybe hillary would have been a good president. -- everything seems inevitable. inevitable.ever even though it looks like it will happen, i am thinkrintuitive enough to something else might occur. >> in 2008, she dropped out of the presidential race and endorsed barack obama. she agreed to serve as the secretary of state. was that a momentous decision? she came into that discussion with a strong negotiating position. she did not just except it right away. i have my own agenda. i want to bring my vital voices and work formen gender equality in countries around the world. into thed to bring not state department -- bring that into the state department as an official u.s. policy. she said, if you can accept that, fine. that may be her greatest legacy, and to have made progress for women and girls around the world. >> as she became the most traveled secretary of state, 112 countries, we had a caller earlier who commended her for her work on a rights -- gay rights. fact, this particular clip of her testimony after the attack in benghazi will probably be most remembered for her tenure as secretary of state. doubt they were terrorists. they attacked us and they killed our people. what was going on and why they were doing what they were doing -- >> we were misled that there were supposedly protests. -- that was not the facts. people could have known that within days. >> with all due respect, we had four dead americans. of a protest or guys out for a walk one night? what is -- what difference does it make question mark it is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again on the senator. honestly, i will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is people were trying in real time to get to the best information. the ic has a process. clear, from my perspective, it is less important today looking backwards as to why these didn'tts decided they than to find them and bring them to justice. and then maybe we will figure out what was going on in the meantime. >> that also was hillary unplugged. that peoplehillary have seen in campaign meetings behind the scenes. she is angry. that is the way she was feeling. some legitimate points she was making. she said today that benghazi was her main regret as secretary of state. four people were killed on her watch. there is a lot to be determined about benghazi. the reporters i have trust -- i trust the most say that it is much more complicated than the republicans have tried to portray it. there is some responsibility of the obama administration and the state department. >> a lot of it is a money issue. cutbacks on providing security for american outposts around the world have been severe. they did not have enough people. of takings very aware care of people in the state department. obviously, she did not think of libya as being a place that needed to be fortified in advance. if she could've done anything important, that would have been at. things,arger scheme of benghazi will be the most -- the quote of benghazi will be most remembered in the short term. peoplecourse of history, can say, what did she do a secretary of state? in terms of international diplomacy, you cannot point to that many accomplishments. but you can point to something that has been part of her from when she went to beijing as the first lady and spoke about women's rights. larger impact that hillary clinton has had on the world has to do with her speaking out so strongly about those issues. >> we have about five minutes left. we will take a call from springdale, arkansas. >> i am here. get so littley coverage as secretary of state when under the bush administration, condoleezza rice was in the news every single day? question. a good perhaps you know, david? >> i do not know what the difference would be between her and condoleezza rice except when condoleezza rice was there, we -- onealing with wars step removed from iraq and afghanistan. she didf the reasons not show any major accomplishments was because foreign policy was very much held tight by the white house. hillary wanted richard holbrook .fter deputy secretary of state the obama administration did not agree because it would have put too much power in the state department. hillary did not have a major brief. what she did mainly was to make friends and try to undo the damage that had been done by the bush administration in alienating allies and exacerbating enemies. theresident obama took over economy, all of the focus of that presidency was on the economy. the press was paying attention was what was -- with what was going on domestically. >> philadelphia. >> will she win the presidency? yes or no? >> david answered that earlier. hoping the packers would win the super bowl. i am not -- i am interested in the results, but i know no more than you or anyone else. -- does hillary have any interests or hobbies outside of politics? >> she is primarily -- she really does not like to exercise. she does not play any instruments. she says she cannot saying. i am not sure what else he likes to do. she does not like to do her hair, i can tell you that. she cannot do it herself and that is why she let it grow long. it took a lot of nudging by her hillary land plans to get her to cut her hair. ally orll a political liability? how is the approaching this? >> you can go back to 2000 and eight. he was both a liability and a help. he loves being campaign manager. down everyeaking precinct and county in iowa and new hampshire. and learnderstands some lessons from 2008 that yes to be careful about what he says -- that he has to be careful about what he says and how he affects her candidacy. it is both a liability -- in my experience of covering politics for several decades, he is the smartest politician i have ever met. >> we are just about out of time . this has been in the store go series about first ladies. we have women who are very much and writingith us their own stories. how should we put a cap are on this story? what should people think about her? >> i think hillary clinton wanted to be helpful in advancing the security, the opportunity, and the impact of women and the protection of girls. frameworkat in every that she has operated in. i think that has been her she and bill clinton have been hasor a long time but she remade herself more than he, and he's depending on her to make the ultimate rehabilitation when she becomes president. >> we're not talking about the heart attack -- heart attack and the effect on the family of that. what should people know about this woman? story, i an incredible shek that she is a pioneer, blazed a path for every woman to follow. terms of look over and activism and she is a survivor. with incredible ups and downs of their lives forward, shemoving keeps going. 90% of life is just showing up. and she keeps showing up. >> thank you very much for being here for the first lady series. we look at the life of hillary clinton. >> my pleasure. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> next monday, first ladies covers laura bush, wife of president george w. bush. she was a teacher at the university of take -- she was a graduate at the university of texas in austin and was a librarian. she married the future president within four months of meeting him. the first lady of texas and later the united states, advocate of literacy -- she established the first-ever national book festival and she worked on international campaign for women's health. join us next monday for the life of laura bush, on c-span, c- span3 and c-span radio. with the white house historical association -- we are offering a special edition of the first ladies of the united states of america. it is available for the discounted price of 1295 plus shipping. websiteit our series with a special section, welcome to the white house. which chronicles life at the executive mansion. this is www.c-span.org/f irstladies. >> as we stabilize the financial system, we also take steps to get our economy growing again. to save as many jobs as possible. and help the americans who become unemployed. that is why we have increased unemployment benefits for more than 18 million americans. making health insurance 65% cheaper for families to get their coverage through cobra. past 25 different tax cuts. let me repeat. we cut taxes. we cut taxes for 95% of working families, we cut taxes for small businesses, for first-time homebuyers. for parents trying to care for their children. 8 milliones for americans paying for college. >> watch president obama deliver this year's address. our coverage begins at 8:00 eastern, with the president at 9:00, followed by the response from the republican house chair and twitter. the state of the union, live on c-span and c-span radio www.c- .pan.org >> coming up, a debate on u.s. gun policy. to see our chance first lady series featuring hillary clinton. and president obama's state of the union address -- with the head of radio international. next, a debate about the current state of gun policy in the u.s.. recent shootings -- they argue for safety measures and gun owners rights. this event from stanford university is 90 minutes. >> am i on? welcome everybody. nice to see you here tonight. i am the dean of continuing studies, and it is my pleasure to moderate this program, entitled "guns in america a year after sandy hook." it is now a little more than a year since december 14, 2012, which, as we know, adam lanza hook ins way into sandy newtown, connecticut. with several shotguns and handguns. killed 26 children and took his own life. we know that on tuesday in roswell, new mexico. a 12-year-old boy injured his school with a shotgun in a gym bag and seriously injured a 15- year-old girl, and critically injured an 11-year-old boy, both of whom are recovering, successfully, we hope. since sandy hook, 1500 gun bills have been introduced in the legislature of nearly every state. a little bit over 100 have actually been enacted into law. 70% got 100 nearly rights -- and only 39 of the laws that were passed actually increased gun control and safety. the united states still has the highest number of guns per capita. of about 270 million. and 2013 saw the same number of deaths by gunshot. as in the previous years, around 30,000. here we are a year after sandy hook, still talking about the lobbying and organizing, and citizens respectful of each other's decisions to craft legislation and policy that will protect safety and our freedom. tonight, we will have this conversation in a debate format. speaking in favor of an increased gun safety and gun control legislation is john donohue, the edith m carl smith professor of law at stanford law school. speaking in favor of gun owners rights and the second amendment is don kilmer, an attorney in -- ate practice in they will each make an opening presentation of about 10 minutes. john will go first. these will be followed by six prepared questions that will be debated, these were selected from those that were proposed and from which we selected six questions each -- each will be given four minutes to respond to questions and we will alternate. we will finish with 20 minutes of questioning from you in the audience. you probably all noticed that in your programs you have the index card, and you probably suspect what that is for. write the question and pass it to the aisle, and those cards will he picked up by our volunteers and graduate students and they will be circulating through the audience and brought yakovic wholav giveread through them and me a select number that we should get through in 20 minutes. we will finish by 9:00. i hope you stay for each act of this presentation. before we begin i would like to recognize branislav. he is the spirit and energy behind tonight's program. and without his assistance we would not be here. thank you very much. without further ado, i will ue and his john donoh opening presentation. >> thank you very much. i have the pleasure to be here and i am glad i was the safety person and not the violence and death supporter. saying,tart by conservative republicans used to think that there was no private right to guns. bys is griswold -- appointed and said theon constitution was a barrier to reasonable gun laws and exceeds the principles of at the -- advocacy. -- chief justice warren burger, an extremely conservative judge of his time, wrote -- just last month, a columnist, a longtime columnist stated what principle, that reasonable regulations are essential for all constitutional rights including the right to bear arms. essential absolute truth and he was quickly fired for saying that. the debate over gun policy in america is so dominated by extreme voices that even a second amendment fundamentalist who always keeps a gun by his side is ostracized by the gun community. we are locked in a struggle with powerful forces in this country, that will do anything to destroy the second amendment. says the former editor of guns and ammo. the time for rational points is gone, and this is largely reflected by the opposition -- there is no room for rational discourse on these subjects. from the former guns and ammo editor, who --cribes the special nature you have to because it's with the manufacturer to make the appeal to the leadership. -- readership. that is just how it happened. he had charges dismissed a -- an arizona laster after two trials ended with deadlocked juries against him. shot aen he fatally neighbor during a drunken argument. heckler manufacturing a series of weapons, that high- quality body on her -- body armor has ended machine guns and effective. this was described as an assault as itdamaging tissue penetrates the body armor, causing more damage. in 2012, the editor of recoil weapone wrote that this was designed for law enforcement and was unavailable to civilians and for good reason. he was pressured to step down and despite profuse apologies for having made that horrible misstatement, -- the secondof amendment says, we believe in the tolerance -- no guns in american schools, with the rare exception of law enforcement or security personnel. is that barack obama after newtown? that was actually way my pierre after the columbine shootings. if someone makes those statements now, they are described as constitutional terrorists. we think it is mandatory to have background checks for every sale at gun shows. is that president barack obama? that was an nra advertisement taken out after the columbine massacre. the nra today stands against universal background checks. after theng numbers newtown shooting and regrettably -- we did not get that. with the nraday was saying in 1999, that this is a dangerous threat to the constitution -- the bad news is that there is no easy solution to the problem of gun violence. it is similar to the problem of illegal drugs, the social costs are high but there are people who value them highly. if you start with guns in circulation it is very hard to come up with controls that will work effectively if you were starting from scratch. and even if you know what quirks, it is hard to get an emblem -- hard to implement this. there are some good ones, i like to be optimistic. the gun merchants are not as bad as the debacle companies -- tobacco companies. in terms of life lost. most of the guns buffer protection never cause any harm or benefit, they will just sit there. most accidental firing simply bounce off of the wall. if you are following last week in frankfort kentucky, -- frankfort, kentucky, just before the state of the state address -- the governor was cleaning her gun and fired a bullet that ricocheted, thankfully not hitting any representatives in the room. she laughed about it, she thought, i was totally clear. here are the numbers. we lose 850 people through firearm act of that -- accidents, close to 20,000 from firearm suicide, close to 11,000 by homicide. 100,000 killed and half a million gun crimes of violence each year. in terms of the total number of deaths, if you aggregate them from 1965, about 750,000 were homicides, accidents that were more than the combined deaths, more than all of the combined wars of the 20th century. it is not tobacco company still, obviously too high. trying to deal with a lack of information is always a problem and of course the nra has used its influence to try to suppress information collected by the center for control so we don't know as much as we would like to know. and the nra is constantly putting out inaccurate information to give one the sense of several reports on gun ownership around the world. clearly to refute the assumption that the abundance of guns in the united states leads to homicides. when it comes to firearm homicides, the u.s. does not even make the top 25. it sounds like guns really help. among affluent nations we are a total outlier with homicidal violence. doubt that the massive level of guns and u.s. gun culture contribute to that violence. the regression shows that as a country becomes richer, the tendency for -- tendency is for homicide rates to fall and the one country that stands above the regression line is the united states with three times the rate of homicides that you would expect for a country of this wealth. we are trying to move the red dot down to reduce the numbers but we are likely to succeed if we acted differently from the competitor nations, and cut back on the restrictions from guns, and gun culture, by trying to mimic them. our 2008 numbers would be substantially beyond what we showed here if we had not tried to compensate for these enormously high violence levels by locking up millions of individuals. controlling guns cannot control the entire gap, but it is like anything else. reasonable regulation can improve the situation. the claim is made that when states postal regulatory laws, crime goes down. that therert shows is no support for that view. it in fact cuts the other way. let me give you some quick numbers here. -- when these laws are passed, that allows citizens to carry concealed handguns, on average and in every category, crime rises. this is not enough to make claims but it shows that the this does not support the general claim. the more sophisticated analysis tries to control other factors across the role, various crime categories. you see a very consistent pattern that if anything the crime numbers are going up. no evidence of crime drops. the national crime victimization theey has shown that attack with a-- several thousand times for year, won eight of the violent crime episodes. it is clear that guns are used at times for self-defense but the overwhelming amount of time, people do not have the opportunity to use the guns even if they lawfully possess one. but we do know that 232,000 times a year, guns are stolen from law-abiding citizens. and that means every time a gun is used in self-defense, five times guns use up -- wind up in the hands of the criminal element. that is probably a bad trade- off. we will say more in the next phase. [applause] >> first, a little bit of a disclaimer. to --as invited here drafted to represent the national rifle association, i would have to take conscientious objector status. i am not here to represent the nra and they do not edit my point of view, i often disagree with the national rifle association with gun policy. i was here as a substitute speaker for mr. don case. mine, whontor of wrote the article that kicked off the modern debate on gun control. it is called handgun prohibition. you can find that article in the michigan law review. is, if i can leave you with one impression tonight i hope that it will be that the second amendment, and the entire bill of rights are public policy. freedom and liberty and the ancillary responsibilities have been debated during the drafting and ratification of our amendment. that does not mean that there is not room for regulations of firearms. donahue'sssor perspective, we must overcome the constitutional barriers for fundamental rights. it may be easier when it comes to regulating guns to meet the government's burden, maybe even a compelling government interest. because we are talking about the instruments that are used to inflict deadly force in self- defense. but the fact is that regulation of -- proper regulation of the right to keep and bear arms is probably constitutionally appropriate. several of the justices of our supreme court, and professor adam winkler of ucla has noticed that all of our rights come with some risk. how much easier would criminal investigations be if testimony was admissible and not in violation of the fifth amendment? and those of you who are tuned into the euphemism, this is a polite term for torture. many crimes will be solved if the government did not have to obtain a war probable cause to search your homes or person or places of business. how much easier with the prosecution of criminals be if the accused was not afforded the right to have an attorney present or represent him in the trial. our bill of rights and constitutional rights and fundamental rights to carry risk. the second amendment is no different. but the balancing test was done in 1791 and 1868 on the 14th amendment, incorporating the 17th amendment. the purpose of the second amendment is self-defense, in our anglo-american tradition of self-defense. the words of the second amendment itself, a well regulated militia needed for a free state, the right of people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. this gives us the second purpose of the second amendment, the defense of the community and the defense of the state and the nation. the third purpose of the second amendment is defense against tyranny arising in our own country. now, the first of these is self- defense, and the anglo-american common law, which we affirmed in heller versus district of columbia's decision. the defense of your community and the defense of your nation is set forth in the amendment but it is also codified in the united states law. how many of you are here between the ages of 17 and 45? if you are not a member of the national guard you are a member of the unorganized militia. and you have a duty to be compelled to show up to defend the nation in the event of an internal emergency. she's kosinski of the ninth circuit in the 2003 case, although he was not chief justice at the time wrote very eloquently the third purpose of the second amendment. that is, writing in the minority at the time, because in 2003 the second amendment had not been recognized by the supreme court as a fundamental right. he's speaking to the majority when he says -- the majority falls prey to the illusion that ordinary people are too careless and stupid to own guns. they would be better off leaving all weapons in the hands of professionals or someone on the government payroll. it simple truth is that fares best when government need not fear -- fear the wrath of ordinary people. disarmament was the tool of choice for subjugating slaves and free blacks in the south. they searched black homes for weapons and confiscated those found, punishing their owners without judicial process. blacksth, by contrast -- armed themselves against racial mob violence. tawnee --you can read about that in scott versus sanford. a few hundred jewish soldiers chtp -- held off the warmau -- so 6000 jews would not be put into cattle cars. this has not been forgotten by history. the prospect of tyranny may not grab headlines like gun crimes do, and many did not see the third reich coming until it was too late. the second amendment is a doomsday provision, designed for exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights are upheld. and the government will not stand for reelection and silences those who protest. when you have a choice not to address crime -- don't forget to include the genocides that have been committed by governments against unarmed people. i would also like to put to rest another myth that i don't think has been debunked enough. that the controversy of the meeting of the second amendment that confronts us -- this is not a left or right or concern of liberal dichotomy. ago, they passed a countywide initiative, measure h. to ban the possession of handguns in the city and county of san francisco. at the polls. 89,000 people voted against it. this was roughly 58%-48%. the ordinance was eventually shut down in the court. but the interesting fact is that 42% of the residence and -- of the city and county of san francisco voted no. you could not find that these are conservative right wing gun nuts. a little further back in history, 1982, a gun -- gun control advocates were successful in putting proposition 15 on the ballot, a statewide initiative to repose and moratorium on handguns in california. for the first time in california history, mayor tom bradley was the first african-american on a gubernatorial ticket. but that brought out a lot of unexpected voters. defeated in a was landslide victory, 63%. very thiny lost by a margin. what does this tell us e it tells us there is a large percentage of people who probably characterize themselves as democrats or as liberals, who want to hang onto their firearms and do so for good reason. when you try to think about policy, remember that the second amendment is not an actor is him. an anachronism. the u.s. is not without its sin in regard to native americans and the legacy of african- american slavery in the country. by the grace of the debate -- the joke this debate will accentuate, we can go beyond today taking into account the wisdom of those who came before us who ratified these -- because at that tim

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