Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20160811

Taking place of the george w. Bush president ial library in dallas, this is one hour in 20 minutes. One of the most striking features of president ial transitions is the bipartisanship that prevails among government officials in congress who read the transition laws. The president and the white house staff who set the direction of planning and departments and agencies that carried out the policies. It was not always the case. When the 1952, president truman wanted to bring to the white house but the republican and democratic president ial nominees to meet with his cabinet and white house staff members, he met with the partisan divide. He wanted them to come in because he found when he came into office he was unprepared. He came in january of 1945, roosevelt died in april and truman knew nothing of the atomic bomb. Seated by that experience, he wanted to bring people so they could understand what was ahead of them. Adlai stevenson accepted but general eisenhower turned down trumans invitation in large part because he said he was running against the administrations program and thought the public would not understand why he would be coming into the white house when he was running against it. Ruman was very upset to he set the handwritten note which he would sometimes do so he can get it by staff, he had a handwritten note to eisenhower ofmenting on his own way looking at the turned down by the general. Sorryte, im extremely that you have allowed a bunch of screwballs to come between us. You have made a bad mistake and i am hoping it will not enter this great republic. The strong partisan nature of that transition no longer distinguishes the handoff of hours from one president to his successor. Our five panelists are in a position to discuss the shape of transition as each of our officials has gone through for one or more of them at a senior planning level. Additionally, they are all involved in current efforts to fortify the transition process and find areas of agreement that will ensure a president ial transition in a bipartisan setting, which is the theme of our conference. Our conference is one of three and were going to hold at texas president ial library. The other two will be at the lbj library on september 2223 yuan with National Security and on october dealing with National Security and on october, Crisis Management with two scenarios, financial and National Security crisis. All are around the theme of the importance of bipartisanship and transition. We are going to begin with two chiefs of staff who know the beginnings and ends of administrations. Max came in at the beginning of the Clinton Administration as chief of staff and josh was at the end of the Bush Administration. The september 11 attacks and the transition out of office of george w. Bush changed the tone and action undertaken during the transition period. In 2008 president bush led the most determined transition out of office that we have experienced. He began the transition cycle in 2007 in discussions with his chief of staff, josh bolten who led the effort. Uin turnnterne closed the circle by habit representatives of the incoming outgoing executives meet well before the election. He brought together representatives of the candidates in the white house in july. Almost two months prior to the 2008 party convention. Johnson, who led the transition of the executive director for president bush and 2001, he was the office of management and lead the department and Agency Planning Work Together information for a new team. He will be on the second panel. Equally important in the 2008 transition was interest in making use of those administration preparations by those leading the transition effort for senator and bend president elect obama. Christopher lee, executive director of the transition effort for senator obama was in those july meetings and worked with bolten and his deputy on the bush team. He is now the secretary deputy secretary and the department of labor and involved in the transition out of office of president obama. Lisa brown was codirector of Agency Review for obama and also begin work in july of assembling teams to go to the departments and agencies to collect information on programs, staff positions and upcoming schedules and budgets. President bush and his team willing to lead a transition eager to use by obama. All the panelists are involved in efforts to solidify the gains in transition planning and in finding ways to expand the areas of agreement such as the president ial appointment process. Max mclarty along with clay johnson have been leaders of the in situ project for reforming the appointed process. Lisa brown was part of the congressional and Obama Administration a reform effort. They are knowledgeable and i will set to talk about the transition. Aboutogram today comes through the work of many institutions and individuals. Our panelists have come from a distance to speak about president ial transitions and we thank our guests for coming to talk to us about the subject. Support of thehe Moody Foundation and for you and Jamie Williams interest in the project. We appreciate it and the work that you are doing in the president ial Leadership Programs that you support. Next, the george w. Bush president ial center has provided our state and significant logistical support. We thank you as well as her colleagues. Your the Baker Institute for Public Policy is our partner in who we are coordinating with on the white house transition process. Finally, we thank the staff of the white house transition project to afford for our conference and often honor analytical programs. Lets begin with josh bolten and max mclarty to do transition no transition to their work as chief of staff. This will be followed by a program on the president ial appointments process and the discussion of the Administration Transition out of office. Thank you. [applause] sit where you like. You can tell whos in charge. [laughter] the 2008 transition was by all sides viewed as the best that we have had. Anyway put attention that had not privily been the case. I wonder if you can talk about the elements that you see that were important in that transition. Why was it so good . Thank you. For the recognition of the work that the Bush Administration did and the president did himself. My answer to your question. It comes from the president. Max knows this better than anybody, so much in a president ial term and the executive agenda comes from what or president says he eventually she is interested. In. That was sure of the 2008 president ial transition bush directed me more than a year before the transition and as he mentioned, late 2007 its on the president first spoke to me as his chief of staff and talked about how important he thought this president ial transition would be because it was the first president ial transition in our modern history during which our homeland was actually under threat. 9 11 changed everything. About the bush presidency in our country. So he was determined that we not have an unnecessary period of vulnerability during the early months of the incoming president S Administration regardless of party. Relevant to president bushs consideration when he said he gave me the direction to effective and most complete transition in american history. That was a low bar to meet. [laughter] on bothnally, ive been ends of a transition already, both going out of the bush 41 administration in the coming into the bush 43 administration. In a bipartisan way. Just on something that attracted attention. Not something that attracted attention. Not a question of partisanship. I think you will agree. I do agree. Historically in america, a question of we dont need to do that. Dont learn on the job. They had time to get there feet on the ground and run the place the way they want to run it. We dont need to spend a lot of time doing stuff, doing preparatory work for the next gang and that probably isnt particularly welcome in the first place. It was deftly a change of psychology and in the 2008 transition, we had ultimately a terrific partnership with a very well organized obama team that will be represented on your neck panel next panel. What direction did he give you . The truth is, i dont really remember. [laughter] i do recall that it was not detailed instructions. Styleasnt george bush is to say i want to make sure they have all their appointments in place and that the briefing books are here in the diagram of , anybodywing, that is who knows george w. Bush knows he is a leader and a man of principle. He empowers people to do their jobs. He considered it my job and the job of my staff, the staff job of clay johnson to figure out what the details were. Sayingat i do recall him explicitly is that i want these people to be as prepared as possible to deal with a crisis should one happen on the first day of the next ministry should. Administration. That is both a tall order and a major undertaking. There was a threat on the inauguration. There was. We were particularly concerned a terrorist attack during the actual inauguration. It is a moment of extraordinary peril when you think about it. So much of the government actually moves. A key people at of top move around but most the government remains in place. Fewur system, the top thousand leaders of government are actually replaced in a transition, especially transition between parties were basically everybody who used to be there is out all at the same moment. It is not like it is a slow process of the onemonth a few people come in the next month or people and so on. 20 everyn on january four years that the people who have been in charge suddenly have no authority anymore. They are done, you were out. Your badge does not work. You cant get back into your office. To or either expects should follow your instructions. Abrupt change in our system and the new people, i remember walking into the white 20, 2001 andary you walk into a blank office and theres nothing on the walls, a few supplies on the desk, computers but there is nothing in the memory bank. You might know the phone numbers of a few of the people you may need to reach but it is a very complete and abrupt transition and for the country, that is a real period of vulnerability and i dont think it lasts all that long. But the first few days in a crisis, the people who need to make the decision might not even know how to reach the other people that they need to reach to take action. Transition in the 2009 was we08 and did our best to prepare the incoming folks to work with each other and also to pair up the out coming outgoing people with the incoming people. We held a tabletop exercise in early january in which we assembled cabinet officers who were relevant to a National Security crisis. We assembled in the Old Executive Office building and we had all the outgoing officials there who would be involved in a National Security crisis, secretary of homeland security, the National Security advisor, wesecretary of health populated a chemicalbio attack. We had all the right officials in the outgoing message and who knew each other and you who did what. And we brought in their incoming counterparts and we went to the tabletop exercise with the old people sitting next to the incoming people and i dont know if i dont know how much you can learn and it three hour tabletop exercise about how to act in a crisis but the main thing was that they laid eyes on the other people with whom they would need to communicate and i will bet for most of the people in the incoming obama cabinet, that was the first time they had was onedirector muller key official who emma because the nature of his position, transitioned acrosS Administrations and would be a key person to know and can indicate with in the event of a crisis. One other thing i will mention that we did, we asked the home , who hadity secretary planned a vacation with his wife 20, we00 p. M. On july asked him to stick around for a during Inauguration Day he was in an offsite with the nncoming secretary, security i the control center where they could monitor all the threat information and we asked him, even if his authority would be eliminated as of noon on generic 20, we asked him to stick around, be there for advice and so on for secretary napolitano as she takes the reins. It turned out to be important because there was a threat on Inauguration Day. It turned out to be a credible threat. It turned out not to be an actual threat, an actual crediblebut there was intelligence suggesting an attack at the inauguration itself on the mall. I mentioned i imagine if that happens in 2017, folks will be a lot better 2009red than we were in but we at least have thought ,bout it, had talked with folks had our people as wellpositioned as we could under the circumstances to have a smooth handoff. Bipartisanship, they had both worked as prosecutors and knew each other very well. It was an easy discussion between the two of them. Matt, can you tell us about the discussions about transition into office that you had with president clinton. I would be glad to. First of all, it is good to be with you. And a privilege to be here. And a privilege to be with the chief. Our transition was different. It was a different time and place. Josh smith nick lee point about 9 11. Josh makes a key point about 9 11. Personal security became National Security and vice versa. It affected transitions. Alice was a much earlier time. Point, governor clinton, like most president ial candidates before him was very concerned if you have a serious large effort underway entrees at that it would be easy for the press to say, such a show of arrogance here measured the proverbial grapes in the oval office and indeed even with president obama, there was a little talk about that with his transition efforts even after 9 11. That was part of it. I think in our case, as lisa , unlikes from her time josh, i came into the transition late from the private sector having served as a chief executive officer of a new york stock it changed stock exchange. Came in knowing some of the people but not all. The positive side, governor clinton, like most president for candidates had laid out a clear agenda of what he wanted to accomplish in his first 100 days and first two years. That in and of itself laid out a roadmap in terms of the policy work in the administration. Transition,ring the a high priority was placed on the selection of the cabinet. We spent a lot of time there and i think im our work reflected that. Talked about the loyalty and competency and engagement of the cabinet in the Clinton Administration. We also spent a lot of time integrating offices. It was a priority of president elect clinton as he and al gore had run as a team and before that the Vice President , including president bush 21 41 had been an important figure. Curvewe got behind the with the selection of the white house staff. I think that was a setback for us. Side, weon the policy were able to move forward with the economic plan. We were able to move forward with the cabinet and i like so much the spirit of bipartisanship because we did fromve good cooperation the republican members of the Senate Getting a cabinet members in place. As clay johnson know so well, that is only a start. You had get the deputy and the assistant secretaries and place in place. On the National Security front, before 9 11, before the terrorist events we have seen that we are so troubled about, a different landscape although there were on her abilities. I do think vulnerabilities. Ado think that there was springsteen that worked during the campaign, able to make the transition. The final point, and josh has alluded to is, the real two hallmarks of the transition other than being open, prepared, start early, vucevic now has become much better understood and much more accepted, ive spoken with the Business Roundtable he has been active , i think itojects is much better understood how critical transitions are. It is that moment in a 77 day period where there is so much to be done, so many various stakeholders to respond to and it is a moment where it is a essential essential to have it from campaign to governing. That is what transitions, the hallmark of any successful transition. One of the aspects of moving from campaign to governor governing is that there are different needs. The rhythms of a campaign are different because you have, you trying to win each day and you have a policy agenda that is limited that you are talking about. When you come in to govern you need people that are less partisan in a sense and once with experience in the washington community. You will move from one issue to another where you may have coalitions of supporters and then your enemies are your friends in the once afterwards. When you have Campaign People, another mindset you know their mindset. How do you make that transition of personnel, of bringing in people who are appropriate for governing who may not have been on your campaign and what do you do with the Campaign People that you want to reward and how does the president elect president deal with that . Im getting a headache just thinking about this. [laughter] you make the right point. You have had people in the campaign that have truly worked their hearts out for the candidate and the campaign and in many cases, made tremendous sacrifices, whether theyve taken a leave of absence to the job or moved to little rock, arkansas in our case or texas to spend a year plus of their lives trying to get george w. Bush or bill clinton elected, there is a feeling of loyalty. Token, you do have to be pretty steely eyed and not insensitive or empathetic on empathetic that you are moving into a different passage and a different requirement. You have to have a blend of people that were in the campaign you are naturally and hopefully wellsuited to make the transition to governing and theres usually a good number of people in the policy realm and the press room. Realm. You need new people, bother people, in our case, governor clinton knew a lot of other fellow governors that were natural cabinet selections. He had worked with a number of people in education so that was a natural area. A number of people in the National Security area. That is how you make the transition. You have to keep that balance. This one other major factor that is different, that is the members of the congress and the house and senate. You are not going to get your first hundred days moving in the right direction with your legislation as josh knows so well it is so skilled and handling members of the house establishingithout immediate rapport with leadership there. Thatnk the other part of is to reach out early and carefully and appropriately, he cant get ahead of yourself or that will create problems, in our case, i dont think we did as good a job reaching out to the republican side as we could have in retrospect. I think we caught up with that on welfare to work in other legislation later, but that is absolutely key and very different thing campaigns. Finally, in our case, you will talk about this a little later or plant to talk about it, plan to talk about it, we had 12 years of republican been in the white house. That is quite a big change when you have a Different Administration and Different Party come into the white house. In our case, i think it is worth , governor clinton only got 43 of the vote. Our had a difference in dynamic. Allosh, how did you establish your legislative relationship . You had less . First of all, toward dubya bush came into a came in with a landslide by comparison. [laughter] int underestimate 571 votes florida. Now you tell us. [laughter] that made it challenging. Of thede the start administration pretty rough because of the substantial portion of the country was and felt that president bush had not been legitimately elected. Had been decided by the Supreme Court and so on. We were keenly aware of that. The president was aware of that. Aware that he needed to reach out at the beginning of hiS Administration and make sure that everybody understood that he intended to be the president of all the people, not just the phone that had voted for him. Of outreach number efforts at the start of the administration. , bush 43 when he was governor here in texas, as clay can describe well, had uniter and hereal had hoped to be able to do the same in washington. He had been intending to go to washington at the education president and do that on a bipartisan basis and so the administration started out with cutsenda that included tax and education reform as the top educationnd that democraticthe chairman ted kennedy in the senate and they were his close working partners on what eventually became the no child left behind act. Sadly for the country, that kind hard totum was very came paying maintain even after the aftermath of 9 11. Why do you think it was . That is the 64 trillion question. To have we not been able stitch together some substantial element of bipartisan last 20 or 30 the years. If you do have degraded through and there are a lot of things to point to. Gerrymandering in the house. Make the vast majority of house members safe in their seats. Challenge from the fringe of their own party. Members to make house much more responsive to the right, the extreme right in the Republican Party, extreme left and makemocratic party them less and client inclined to be receptive to compromise. There is the influence, the dramatic change in how and where people get their news that the outlets frommedia which we all benefit it has been a tremendous and it must respect positive change in our society. Also means that people take the and arent news operating off of a common set of facts. That used to have a unifying effect in the country. There are semifactors involved. Dont think you can identify one but you cant say that i think the biggest challenge for the coming generation of government leaders to try to bridge the divide. Certainly the transition has proved to be an area that democrats and republicans can Work Together whether it is in administrationan. At least we have one area and i othershere are a few guess there are a few others. For both of you all, what is the start . Ge of a fast and if you have trouble at the beginning of the administration, lose the way on the fast start, how can you get it back together . First impressions are important. Phraseus have heard the in president ial history and days,gns, the first 100 that is the goodwell coming off the election. What did its 100 days or the First Six Months of the administration. It is also the same time as he out, you are to get your team plays and may have the least experience in some ways to implement that. I think in our case, the economic plan was crucial because the campaign had largely been about domestic issues and the economy. Had we not been able from a policy standpoint to develop an economic plan and to move that to the congress and get it passed in the beginning of the administration, i like her to as far and say that you might have had a failed presidency, but i certainly think that would have been written about had you not been able to follow with anything on the plan. Much like joshua to do with the election, we passed that by one vote in the house and Vice President gore both the time the senate. That was crucial. That was essential to the start. You are also going to have, in most cases, we certainly did, some bumps, some unexpected unforeseen occurrences that are going to come in and you had to deal with whether they are micro, unsettling problems or whether they are major unforeseen occurrences. You can have all of your plans and agendas laid out as perfectly as you would like, but you are inevitably going to have to deal with the unexpected events. It is essential that you left off. A real crucial element comes into place, many of you in the Business World here and it is what clay and i have been so adamant about a committed to, he got to get your team in place to deal with all of that and it starts at the cabinet level in the white house senior level. You have to fill out the remainder of the administration. Had some bumps at the beginning as well. The economic transition, i was part of the transition that was well formed when you came in. He created the National Economic council which continues today. I think the president management oouncil was created early to and the economic program, and it was coupled with troubled with appointment. John skymobi interesting to get your perspective. I think most administrations have had some issues on appointments and are confirmations. We certainly had it on the attorney general. On the other hand, as i had noted earlier, and i get the Republican Leadership and the senate a lot of credit for this, we got our cabinet in place say the attorney general office. I believe more properly than any other administration i got in there can in place because we had cooperation from the senate and getting those approved. We got those in place but we also had some other issues, some military issues that came out for aere distracting central messaging and central efforts to that things in place. I think what you have to look at is at the end of the day, most presidencies will be judged by piece, which i would now say security and homeland and prosperity. Thats the two goals you have to keep before you. Getting the white house staff something thatis now everybody seems to recommend and clinton has talked about how that was one thing lesson learned. I think we spent a lot of time on the cabinet which pays big dividends. Not only did we had the collegial cooperative cabinet, they give us great advice and were able to amplify and you know this from your time and the Obama Administration, amplify the president s message and a pretty impactful way both in the country, internationally and on the hill in congress. An important point on , that gotten in a understanding way how critical it is to have early, developed, engaged transition efforts that are on a separate track from the president ial campaign and that will help and is key to getting the white house staff in place in addition to the other positions of government. Said,underscore what he that is crucial and important that the environment that the white house transition project , the legislation adopted as a result of the efforts has altered the mindset about president ial transition because it used to be that those candidates who were even focused on the importance of the transition were reluctant to admit that in any public sense because you at the merely be accused of measuring the drapes, getting ahead of yourself, being arrogant. In 2008 when even i reached out at the direction of the president in the summer of 2008 all before the conventions, i reached out to the presumptive nominee campaigns, the romney and obama and Mccain Campaign. The Obama Campaign got it. They were well organized and had a Terrific Team in place led by john podesta and chris lu. The Mccain Campaign was very nervous and very reticent to be plan, havingg a leadership of the transition and so on precisely because they do not want to be accused of and gettinge drapes ahead of themselves. Theres been an important change in the environment just in the the few cycles about propriety and necessity of making the preparations and is likef the ways operations yours and terrys and others have made an important contribution the way we run our public life. If i may build on what josh has said and such a thoughtful and articulate manner, i think the environment has changed. A lot of people in this room and a lot of others have helped to move that forward. I think 9 11 has changed the i thinkoo. Administrations coming and have a bit of a different attitude, how much can i learn from this other group that either i was smarter than or better than, after all i did defeat them . You write about that in your book. There is a much better understanding that even if you have sharp differences on policy , there is a lot to learn from prior administrations who had been in that change chair or seat in the white house. There has been a change in that environment. Building on the broader change that john spoke about. Outcomes of these transitions out of office, one has to be legislation. Institutionalized many of the. Hings that you did you had an executive order that could it be for knitting council. That is in law. Legislation in 2010 that create the preelection transition effort so that after you have the National Party nominating convention that the transition headquarters that is open up to the general serviceS Administration and provide support for candidates if they choose to use it. People should understand, this is paid for by the federal government. That, he notial just that you get the money, but that you have the Standard Operating Procedure to set up an office, put people in it and let them start planning and hopefully Going Forward, it will be a natural thing for both candidates to engage in that important planning activity. And 2016, march 20, president obama signed legislation that the president ial transition improvement that is going to provide even more because the transition cornet in council has and it iseir by law created six month for the election and there is an Agency Transition director counsel that was created that has Career Civil Service people running it. , themation happy provided kind of information that you and in 2008. Put together so that there was a legislative impact on the kind of work that you did. Max referenced a conundrum. The conundrum i discussed here is the transition is the Time Opportunity maximum to change. For example, when youre coming too office is a good time make organizational changes. Because the public is watching and are willing to support and members of Congress Also are more willing and the public is more willing to support you. If at the other hand, you are bringing in a team that is an , that really doesnt know where the levers are and how to make them work, how did do with that . That . Do you deal with it has not been fully resolved at this point. It goes back to what i tried to try earlier, you have to your very best to blend the organization of the campaign staff, many of whom have been deeply ingrained in the policy development as well as the campaign on both domestic and Foreign Policy issues but with implicitly,d experienced hands if you will from the washington scene. Pastoredse, howard came in as head of legislative affairs and how it had a longstanding relationship in and had a partnership there on a bipartisan basis. He was well suited on the legislative front to have a number of relationships already established. A little bit later on as you recall, we reached out to david had served five residents and he served in a number of administrations and we specifically wanted to get someone from the republican side that could help us build those bridges. Those of the types of things you do. The only other point i would make that maybe we have not decided enough for this group and for the cspan viewers and so forth, just the magnitude of what is really entailed in a 77 day transition. You really have so much work to periode in such a short of time. And our summary stakeholders who voted for you, the opponent process, getting your people in place, in our case, the governor stepping on the world stage, meeting other international leaders. Establishing relationships with members of congress, often who think they are pretty important in this process. The press, it is a different press that covers the white house and had generally cover the campaign. There is a multiplicity of stakeholders that have to be engaged in a very short period of time as you are lifting off. Jaws, how did you deal with the conundrum . Thee had a blessing in outset of the bush 43 administration. Which georgegn in w. Bush was elected in the blessing was that a large portion of the country thought that george w. Bush was stupid. That hesy is exceptionally bright policy person. I spent my career in government policy and george w. Bush is one of the sharpest policy minds ive ever encountered in decades. But that was not the reputation he had. Had a political necessity to run a campaign that was chockfull of substance. Have been George W Bushs instinct anyway. We ran a campaign that was inciplined and setting out one month it would be to Health Care Policy in the next month would be tax policy and the next month with the energy and environmental policy. There were speeches that went with that. Act sheets that well with that with the end of the campaign we post a 300 page book of campaign papers that policy were the governing agenda for the first hundred days that mac was talking about. So that made the conundrum pe riod youre talking about much easier for our crowd because, we had the agenda in a 300 page had that people internalized. People those who had worked for the campaign. We had the game plan set out for us and the reason i say that is a blessing, that we were blessed and having to run the campaign is that it made the george w. Bush administration unusually well prepared to govern and the D Development and a lot of and are campaigning now is that policy does nothing to be that important and i think what we way back, i is a dont think a particularly helps of the country thinks it is candidate is not bright. To aed to find a way back mode of campaigning and politics where the candidates with the agendas and the agendas that , and what thele people do in the first hundred days is what the country wants done. Good be critical for our politics Going Forward. You could say that the most important thing Going Forward for the transition is having an articulated policy agenda as you come into office and really developing it at this point said that you know what you are going to do and organizationally that you can put together. Both. As a much better way of saying what i intended to say. [laughter] you set the table very nicely for the professor. [laughter] differences in types of transitions that you have. We going from democrats did democrats or republicans to republicans. The change of party transition. Both of you all were involved in change of party but how did you, you are in the george h. W. Bush administration and that was one ,rom reagan to george h. W. Bush whether the differences between the two and how should the two candidates, Hillary Clinton and donald trump think at this point about the differences in the types of transitions theyre going have and what differences they should make to how they prepare . I will take a first stab at it. All, the fun of the point i would make, the one that we have suggested a couple thousand is discussions of art is that both the Clinton Campaign and the trunk Campaign Already have established transition efforts in place and i think that reflects the environment that we talked about this morning. Know, withs some john podesta as secretary chairs heign, is very knowledgeable. The trump people have established, a credible transition effort. We have talked earlier. That is number one. Through the change of parties, that is a very different dynamic than when you have a not a change of parties. It will be interesting and kris secretaryto it, if clinton is elected, how the transition will take place with the Obama Administration because that will be the same party. In our case, you were clearly got to have a significant change not only in terms of policy and direction and style, but in terms of personnel. I was understood and agreed upon. Toould really harken back the Central Point you already few, this is one of the areas that truly bipartisan cooperation, sincere bipartisan cooperation takes place. Say, itovernor like to is fun to combat put on their stories and cooperate for the good of the country. I think that happens regardless of whether it is party to party or a Different Party. It is a very different dynamic. I think the changes more dramatic as you would think when you have republicans and republicans democrats and vice versa. I think it is a little more complicated and tedious when you have one party transferring to the same party. We will feel that takes place with the selection. See if that takes place this election. Lets the if you can take a swing at that. I was a junior appointee in the incoming bush 41 administration and there were a lot of rough spots in part because when there is a ,ransition in the same party the political appointees have a tendency to think they are so theres any important element of expectations management that needs to be done largely by the outgoing president. To let everybody know that you dont automatically get to stay. It will be at the sufferance of the new president. This is in a third reagan term. Secretary clinton wins, not a third obama term. It will be the first Hillary Clinton term. It is important for the outgoing president to set expectations directy and probably to that everybody send to the president the resignation now ,nd let the president decide let the incoming president decide whether to accept them. There is a benefit to a same ,arty transition and that is although the incoming president of the same party will almost certainly want to change over all or a most all of the cabinet , there are number of subcabinet positions that are pretty technical in nature for which it will take time to get your own good people in place and you can keep the gears are government running much more smoothly and aggressively if you can keep a number of those people in place. It requires both expectation management and a fair amount of planning on the part of the incoming president of the same given thech i assume very experience people involved in the Clinton Campaign is well on their minds. You are helpful when you sent very healthily for the letter to the particle appointed time and that their term was up. Even provided a sample letter. [laughter] it wasnt really a suggestion. [laughter] there is principle that we have of one president at a time , seem the 2008 transition to be not quite so clear. There were certain things that happened and particularly with that youcial meltdown all at the obama people had to do and Work Together. Can tells up and about that . You tell us something about that . We did all this planning we were having a financial crisis at the time. The same kind of training applied. The same sort of close interaction between the outgoing and the incoming applied and for the most part, it went smoothly. Entirely smoothly. There was an episode involving the bailout of the Auto Industry in which the Bush Administration against thed political wisdom of most of the republicans in the congress that the federal government did need to do something to step in to support the Auto Industry. Left there would be major bankruptcy that i would have a cascading effect on the economy. With the support of the incoming clinton team to appoint an auto czar. Sorry, freudian slip. [laughter] the incoming obama team that we would hope in cooperation with them that we would name and auto czar those accountable to the Bush Administration but was really the Obama Administrations auto czar so we could set in motion the process of rescuing the Auto Industry but that the Auto Industry would understand that they cannot game the system. The system. Game [indiscernible] was that president bush . [laughter] the Auto Industry that we had wanted to have a consistent policy so that the Auto Industry would know what to expect and know they could not game the system and that from our side we would ensure that they survive well into the beginning of the Obama Administration but also wanted to be sure that we put in stricturesvery tough supportal risk for that would require the industry to take difficult step to make up the competitive going into the future so it was that money down the drain. Ultimately, that is basically what happened but the Obama Administration was reluctant to be seen to be cooperating with the Bush Administrations son never took us up on this offer of a straddling auto czar and we basically had to put in place. Urselves. T worked out ok in the end that is an example of where the incoming the cooperating with the outgoing and the incoming had basically just run against and defeated was a bridge too far. It was not a eisenhower and truman moment of the kind that you referenced in your opening remarks but it was a clear indicator that there were limits to the number of and depth of whom by all humans and by all buy ya moments. In the midst of the financial criticals absolutely to the Financial Wellbeing of and steps thatet president bush took at the end of hiS Administration to staunch the crisis were largely picked administration and extended. There was not an abrupt shift in policy. It is interesting that the person whom president obama picked to be his first treasury reallyry and therefore the navigator of the course in responding to the financial crisis was tim geithner. Democraticn a treasury appointee earlier in his career but at the time of the financial crisis during the which administration was the president of the new york fed. Geithner was part of the triumvirate. That triumvirate is the one that really charted out a course for responding to the crisis on him president bush relied in making his decisions. There was an unusual element of continuity between the bush and anda administrations the stewardship in response to the crisis. It has to be regarded as one of the most affected government in the history of Economic Policymaking. That,really underscore josh and his typically modest not stated as darkly as i think it was. A keyk you make such point about one president at a time. That is the fundamental tenet of any transition. In this case with the economic crisis, not a security crisis, i figure country truly looked into the abyss of what likely would have been a depression had that transition not been handled in the way that it was just outlined in terms of the Bush Administration and the Obama Administration coming in. It was seamless, appropriate, may not had fully integrated on every issue but it was absolutely crucial at the time to avoid what likely would have been a depression to restore stability and order and i think our entire country and for that matter the World Economy benefited from that i commend you. I think theres a row respect real respect between anyone who has had that sacred responsibility as president of the one president at a time. I think we certainly experienced 41 inith president bush the Clinton Administration. That served our country and our democracy world well. Thank you very much. We will never to questions. Questions. O raise a hand and a microphone will go to you. A quickou give us discussion of what happened on 2004 and 2012 on president ial planning . Start transition planning while the running for reelection . And theres a vulnerable period if the other person were to win. That is a great question. The answer is, very little. It is just against the nature of any incumbent administration running for reelection even to contemplate the possibility that they might have to transition as president at bushs leadership was in directing the 2008 transition, i would have to say that there is very little done in 2004. You should post the same question to chris lu he was secretary 2012. My guess is you will come up with a very similar answer. It is a significant problem but that may just fall into the bridge too far category. Doing, the incumbent doing preparation tumor met to permit the person to just eat him and cut him smoothly. Here is where i think organizations like the white house transition project can play crucial role because they are institutionalizing the mechanics and the wisdom of president ial transitioning and so when you cant rely on the white house to be as forthcoming as you would like them to be, there are these outside entities who can do precisely that. In addition, there is legislation that covers this. The 2010 legislation on transition provided that a president may create a Transition Coordinating Council and may create a Agency Transition directors counsel but nothing having happened in 2012 and have in london that experience that 2016 legislation says the President Shall take action. Shall create six month before hand the transition correlating counsel coordinating council. Was may 8 and may 6. The president issued the executive order entered into effect that legislation. The legislation called for the transition directors counsel, that one has to meet at least once a year. That is a continuing body a proper action preparation. You make a good point. The optics of running for reelection in preparing for your successor, people are going to think they know they are going to lose. Good point. Worse than measuring the drapes is taking them down. [laughter] other questions . [indiscernible] getting elected, did it change what they did in the 77 days which turned out to be not that many days . We did not have 77 days. Clay was the transition director. He remembers it, every minute of it. 38 days. I hope you will have a chance to address this when you come up first 39 days of the transition, it was uncertain he was going to be the president. Clay had gone to work on preparing stuff but the focus of ,verybody was down in florida not everybody, but almost everybody who was involved in the bush operation. Most people were down in florida try to make sure trying to make sure that your president was recognized and the thing was happening on the gore side. It was a difficult thing. Clay, you would agree, it worked out ok. 77 days as a short time, 38 days is not a whole lot shorter than 77 in this context. If you are well organized enough , it can be done. With who isto do involved, what is the direction, what is the plan, is there a program, it has more to do with that been exactly how many days you have. Then exactly how many days you have. I worked more bushs office and the transition process was amazing and just how the and administration really wanted to care for the next Prime Minister should come in and come all the way down to the individual offices. I had to put together a packet of what it was like a plan an event for laura bush and when a first lady comes from another country and what the processes and the team coming in and having to meet with mrs. Obamas team. I was impressed. You hear stories of coming in saying it was just not like that for us. He the figured out and calls figured out. We set the administration up very well and i believe president bush really left the place but it than he found it and prepare the next administration. That was awesome. Thank you for the leadership. Underscoring if the tone gets set from the top and if the president and mrs. Bush said disability letter, that is the way will be. Ive a lot of confidence that the president and mrs. Obama had not only said the right things but will communicate the right and,s to their folks however the election turns out, there will be a good experience for the incoming and administration. Not taking the drapes down, the 92 campaign was a difficult time for president bush 41, while we made not had as well organized transition effort as he may have liked, i will underscore that the cooperation ,e received from jim baker directly at the request of president bush 41 could not have been better. Catchupd us to play so much more effectively than otherwise would have been the case. It was ahe case where difficult time. Yet you had an effective, smooth, positive transition of power which is a hallmark of our democracy and what we are seeing is that you are refining the process now and moving it forward in a much more serious the beltway for the funding, technology, all of these things where the transition planning and i give credit to people in the room, it is now becoming an excepted and increasingly understood part of d of ourcal perio democracy. Thank you very much. Lets take our plan is to thank our panelists. [applause] we will bring you another panel from the white house transitions project shortly. First, you look at tomorrow. In the morning on washington journal, near times washington correspondent talks about a series in the New York Times on think tanks and the blurry line between the role as education institutes and their involvement in the corporate world. Later, commissioner at the bureau of labor statistics and Economic Policy correspondent for the Washington Post discusses the latest to stay six statistics on jobs and prices and wages. Go to michigan were hilly country will talk about the economy. That is live on 1 15 p. M. Eastern on cspan. I to the white house transition project, with a look at how a new Administration Takes cap secretaries cabinet secretaries. Be but door to president ial library in dallas, this is about an hour and 20 minutes. When we started this in 1998 we too are often reminded was actually a long time ago seemed like just yesterday but its quite a long time ago. One of the things that people talk about was measuring the ofpes was the equivalent taking your socks in the middle of a winning streak in baseball so we just had to do with the fact that politicians were like professional Baseball Players and would grow a beard if they thought it would help win the election and they would not change the socks if they thought they would win the election. The transitions ran against that. It is commonplace for people to think that it is a responsible thing to do for the candidate to measure the traits and think about what are they going to do if they actually managed to prevail. So now the job of the transition pocket is to convince people that measuring the drapes, preparing to leave, takedown letters the turks is the new equivalent of not changing your socks and so that is an easy transition if you want to todays topic. The last panel was essentially about what it is like to transition the white house and this group of people have all walked into the white house on day one but another interesting aspect of the three people is that they have all walked out of the white house before the white the president e walked out and to the executive branch where the mission of the administration also goes on. Aboutanel will be a bit walking into the building and what that expenses like because they have had that experience and how do you take on the responsibilities of running what the president is only and the top part of the full executive large which is one of the organizations of the world, or the worlds most powerful organizations in one of the most complex organizations, especially if youre interested in actually making a fit your ambitions. I will give you a brief synopsis if you missed the first panel. Leadership is a team sport. It starts at the top. Leadership is a team sport and practice matters. Not youss of whether or face the same game you think youre going to play, practicing together helps everyone. Topics that these three people have had, what they are just learned last night is that not only did lisa brown walked into the white house with president obama, she also walked out of the white house with ice president gore and clinton. President gore and clinton. She has been on both ends of the spectrum. Clay johnson started planning to walk into the white house even before governor bush announced he was going to run for the white house. Of thenthere a portion governor bush and george w. Larcenyommitment, personal commitment to making sure things are done properly. He not only walked into the building with george w. Bush, he walked out of the buddy with george w. Bush and walked out of the building with a different part of the presidency. He was Deputy Director of management. The management and management. The same job that lisa brown was assigned to buy president obama and put a twist on it to make. Er Key Performance officer i will let her talk about what that means. Johnson was the executive director of the obama Transition Planning Group which means he was the guy who started way back before obama was a presumptive candidate. He was the guy who major to know what they were doing if they one and he is now midway through the m initiation has walked out of the building on his own into the executive branch and if you hething about the agency, is the person whose job it is to make sure ambitions of the secretary and ambitions of the president are the actual output of the agency. Do is ask ato series of questions of each individual and author will have a check to, tell them because they all have a similar expenses. Experiences. You have all walked into the building. You have all been part of the person before where your now the a candidate and president elect and he walked into the building and did the job and what i would like you to do is think back to the end of the secondly, not the first week, the second week and ask yourself if you could only draw on that twoweek experience, what thing would you tell your successor that would help them walk into the building with more confidence and strength. To say thank you. Thank you for the bush library for hosting and the Moody Foundation for making all of this possible. I think both mac and just talked about this. You want to come in with a very clear plan and roadmap for what you want to do clearly for the there areweeks and executive orders unannounced and you set a toned, very quickly. What you want to do is know when you walk into the door, we had a very clear set of we knew it was happening on day 1, 2, 3, specially for the first two weeks. I was to have a clear plan but also be willing to be flexible. We are always trying to balance is being proactive and josh mentioned this. , we hope the next president will have a honeymoon. Period. And it is a remarkable time we can get things done. You want to take advantage of that. You also dont know what is going to happen. You also need to be able to be agile when something does happen so that you can respond to appear to it. I agree totally. I want to expand the common which is you need to take charge of the kind of president you want to be and want to be confident and comfortable and assured that you will be able to be. One of the first one of the things you want to do in the first two weeks . Educational things, statutory things, whatever you want to do. One of the things that could be risks if they showed their own we face or opportunities where unlikentries threat, andthere are Economic Risks health risks and so forth. So the president needs to be thinking, how prepared do i want to be to deal with a threat to our country, or a health risk, and so how well staffed do i want to be in the key areas in those departments, how well briefed do i want to be, how knowledgeable of the potential circumstances i might get faced with . Make sure that happens. The key is, the thing that is not secondary or should not be a ,ariable but should be fixed is what the president , with a candidate for president today, what kind of president do they want to do, if they want to be those first two weeks. Without a doubt, do they want to be . You think about how much time to i have between now and then that is not fixed. Time fixtures in terms of man days, do you have someone working on it . Two or three people, a three people man month, but if it is mi devoting the resources, and my expanding the time, adding more days to the calendar them really exist by adding more people to really be prepared, have people around me in key positions to deal with stuff i will want to accomplish if nothing else, encourage . And those other things that from a National Security standpoint. Take control of that. That is the picture of success you want to accomplish, that you want to have painted it your two weeks in the presidency and own that and take responsibility. This is why the transition period is so important. You want to come in and hit the ground running. You want to start governing the minute the president is sworn in. Instead of, where is the bathroom equivalent. Days that seven days or 34 as best as you can, so that when you do governance like clay just described. You can immediately start acting and setting the tone for your presidency. And not really 77 days, that is president elect. He did not start thinking about the transition on election day, . Ght, chris started months ahead of time. Everyone of those days, every one of those days, it is growing opportunity to be prepared. Chris we started planning in may of 2008, maybe actually april, before candidate obama had even grabs the democratic nomination. We understood the importance of planning in a very positive way. Planning a transition is one of these really unique experiences where you cannot ask for an extension of time. The ownon january on of january 20 you have to be ready. That time goes very fast. Many decisions you make during thesition ultimately affect success of your presidency. The key to all of this is understanding that the matter how great the planning is, you have to be prepared for the unexpected. In the beginning of 2008, the spring of 2008 we started planning, we had probably a dozen different policy groups looking at everything from education to health care to the environment, economy was one of them. He was just one of the 12 to that we had. By the followup fall of 2008 as the financial Housing Market started imploding, the economy expands to take over Everything Else. So you have to plan it also be nimble as well. Planning is partly about the people you want to put in place and what positions they have and who is going to be the best fit for the president s ambitions, but it is also about the omissions themselves, right . Right . Ions themselves, the ability to pin it were an unexpected event which like a crisis, Everything Else is already in place. It is easy for i think it is hard for people to understand is the president could actually say , something is on fire, and is really important, but i have got other things to do. Dont mess this up while i am gone, but i have got to do this other thing. So the president s ability to give it during a crisis depends upon the fact that notion, while he is focused on a crisis, the left of the government is not standing still. There is a general policy being pushed forward by others that depends upon him and that matter to him. So this planning stuff that you do is not simply, what are we going to do the first couple of weeks . I have to give a topic beach on this day four, but where is the president s agenda, how far advanced, how well organized . Now i have got to focus on this other thing that i know was expected. That is a part of the transition as well. Veryone agree with that . So if we set that out as an objective, first set out the president s agenda, and then how can we use that agenda to help him for the things that are unexpected or her, toward the things that are unexpected . Where does the personnel fit into that . The nice thing about the campaign is the ready group of people of the now president elect is now familiar with, but there are now all ande other people like mac josh talked about you to draw in community. Shington you are not clear what their objectives are. This is a question for clay. You have this responsibility. How do you decide who the president needs from washington, and how do you decide who the president needs from the campaign . Clay the president is charged to me when he was governor. He was the appointments person i was the appointments person for the governorship, which is the equivalent of president to personnel. You decide who to recommend to me to do the work we want to get done while i am governor or president. So for hiS Administration, what does he want to do . That is the goal every we all want the people that do the best job of our desired work accomplished. And so he did talk about politics, done in a political environment, and is very important you have to understand first of all what you want the deputy secretary to do, or whatever or the assistant secretary overseer or the head of fish and wildlife for the parks and recreation, what do you want them to do . So the first thing you do as residential personnel, you go to the corporate policy section or National Security or whatever, in the white house and say, what does thiS Administration want from parks and wildlife to take care of, or whatever . And the Health Department or hhs, what do they want . In the three or four years they will be in the particular job, we want them, we think they should accomplish this, this direction, south, north, reduce or add it. Then you confirm with them and others what kind of person they want to do that. A change agent, subject matter expert, management expert . You want someone publicly associated with the issue or somebody for very Different Reasons have no association because they will be a lightning rod . What kind of person are you looking for . And you say,go out here is the target of the person i would like to recommend so i can explain to the president , this is the person we recommend because you want to get this and this and this done, this person wants you to get this and this and this done because they are behind that. So you do that and go out and find people in the various ways networking. So what happens to politics hobart politics . We did not try to do with the thetical matter as well as accomplished matters in the personnel office. Personnel was charged with confidence the manners matters, the other was political. Their charge was, make sure we dont do anything stupid politically. Or politically stupid. [laughter] anymore. So they would recommend people that were politically safe or wise old or maybe people or maybe people that were sure to be loyal to the president , likeminded as the president and so on. Maybe they were people that did not come from them, but they would check their political background, people that worked in the community, who would be acceptable. With what kind of person are you looking for that is best qualified to accomplish what this president wants to do . He was very clear charge again from the conversation with the president , find the person best qualified to get the work i, we want to get done while i am president. Terry so you do that without reference to a set of names . Clay without reference to a set of names . They you were describing charge is, described the person , for the department of labor, secretary of labor, what does that entail, what kind of person do we want, all within the context of, we dont already know who that chris lu is . Be disciplinedto to go and decide that. Somebody overseer might a as soon as you get to to finding them i can tell you chris lu would be a fantastic secretary of labor. Or i think chris lou would be a fantastic we would find out, what are the policy, what do the policy people, what do they suggest a labor be focused on in the first three or four years. And if chris lou is qualified to do that, has the skill set to do that, because it means working well with congress or doing this operationally within the agency or as a manager or fiscal or whatever. So you are not given a name. Your first job is to place these people in management positions. Maybe it did not happen with us. Terry on the other hand, you are directing, and the obama transition, you are directing 600 people that are looking at agencies that are basically agency experts, policy experts, people like that. Are you telling those people that they are the policy people that have an indepth understanding of what it is like to deal with Employment Training or Something Like that, because that is what they are interested in in the department of labor . Are you also saying that . Also keep in mind there is no way he will meet all of the cases to be the assistant secretary of training. Or do those people go to work only because this is their ambition . Lisa people join because they care about the government and to be honest, they hope they will go into the government. We were very clear you would not necessarily be given a job. We put together a Transition Team, we were very clear with folks that while we welcomed the dissipation, they should not necessarily we welcomed the participation, they should not necessarily expect a job. You hear about people drawn to, people prove themselves through the job. And then they are thought of when you are looking to see who will be your deputy secretary of justice. Terry did you guys start with to the obama team start with a profile . Lisa can i say at one thing . I dont know if it was mac or josh earlier, but we had our Transition Team was completely distinct from the campaign. Was, we actually drew a lot for the agency. These were teams, individual agencies that tried to learn as much as they could very quickly so they would know the secretary came in, not only would they know what the president wanted theycomplish but also would hit the secretary in the face when they walked in the door. Whether it was regulatory or legislative issue. We chose people who had previous government experience. If somebody had walked worked in justice previously, you knew they went in knowing about the department, knowing about the issues. You dont really want somebody who is trying to get up to speed on this set of issues. When you were talking about the balancing of the campaign and people with previous experience, often that was the half that would be from previous experience. The people from the campaign, why is it that the aresition planning people sequestered from the campaign . It is not that you are try to keep them separate give. That is separated. The whole goal is to win a campaign. They should not be looking over their shoulder, trying to cut around quarters at their next job. If there is a moment in time when they think about it, and truthfully, the skills one needs to win a campaign are often different than what it takes to govern. There is a lot of people that campaign and precision over into Administration Transition over into administration. Some people cant because it is not their skill set. Terry whose job is it to tell them their skill set will not land them in the administration . Place. Verybody has a there is a key and appointments which is how to say no. Types, we say the president makes the appointment and the others make the disappointment. [laughter] clay so the question is, how do you disappoint somebody . Terry sure. Clay you never say you something negative. You never tell senator soandso about his person is not going to the king of, something, a small country at his request. You never say your constituent, something negative. What you say is, something will happen, why, and i am very interested in your qualifications which is all true. Your ability to serve and campaign. And we hope that you will hang tight because of all kind of different roles were the to be challenged. They can be challenged. The challenge also is you have to hear out the different to people on campaigns. Your senior people, policy people all have a role. There are real challenges, what do you do with the 23yearold field organizer who has camped out in a battleground state for the last six months and has organized and really has given up a huge part of his or her life to help win . Trying to translate that skill to governing is a harder challenge. Clay i dont know how many of those people there are, but i think it is 15. There is no sense of limit, and it generally works about 1700. This lower level, very important job in key areas, the person who is camped out in ohio for six works and just did yeoman and went up to ohio because generally is an ideal person to this person over commerce and this person over health or whatever. That person i would expect to be assistant secretary for nuclear defense, it is just there is a fit for just about everybody in the campaign if they want to be involved in thiS Administration. Terry you dont have to say no very often . Clay you might have this person over here, and how about this . You know what this is that the time. Is, you arehe key trying to fill positions. You are trying to get work done. The first step in that direction is, find them qualified, lead the work needing to get done. Terry the work you are doing is the agenda the president is pursuing. That is the defining anchor. Chris people lisa people are policy. You think about your priorities, and you will do your cabinet quickly. You want to think about, what are the key things the president , the candidate has, the goals they set on the campaign . What do you want to quickly do you come into office . You need people to implement those. One of the challenges is what macsenate confirmed, what was describing in terms of the cooperation that he got on the hill, is more of a challenge today. And so one thing and Incoming Administration needs to think about is also taking advantage of the positions where you can just appoint someone, and getting people into agencies in those. There are more than 4000 positions, is that right . It is a lot, so inevitably something where it slows down. For an Incoming Administration to try to back that up as much as possible, so when you come in, you have people or slates lined up you can start to move and get an agency that will be important. What is an example . The question was, somebody had said i just got an idea yesterday. Norman would be a great democratic member of Senior Member of our administration. Greatsaid, we found some thoughts. He knows housing. Transportation, he knows transportation as well as the chairman of the whatever committee. And i say great, what do we want the secretary of transportation to do . Be really effective at working with the congress. [laughter] clay touchdown. So he has that background, well regarded in congress, both sides of the aisle and so on. It is winwin. But that came up originally because he was a democrat looking for a political thing of , the whole thing is this is bipartisan. The thing that drove it primarily was the nature of the background, and that fits exactly, what the policy people said they would want at the head of their department. Terry so to take this example, ysnsportation and countries Airline Infrastructure was not primary policys structure. It is probably 13 out of 13 on the list. How do you decide to Pay Attention to that nomination and that, the qualifications of somebody who is not obviously in the cabinet . Skip the cabinet because you have got to fill out the cabinet. How do you go out feeling below the agencies . Do you focus on the agenda or find we can fill out the entire Transportation Department in one fell swoop. Do you go for the guys you can get in and stand up that part of the government whether it is important to the agenda or not, or do you fight what you have to fight for the people that you really want because they are key to the president s education agenda and you want the Education Department filled top to bottom to promote the president s agenda . Clay you tie it to the work you want to get done. And so you fill up the transportation positions. He has been asked by the president it has been announced. Norman and i are good friends. Now. [laughter] and he comes in and he says, i have a whole bunch of people i want to bring with me into the Transportation Department. , i i said, i kind of went said, here is the way we would like this to work. You, nobody is recommended to the president that you dont. Ecommend for future positions and nobody is recommended to the president that we personally pushed out. Name, and you have to agree. So maybe you have 15 people with , and we will be looking at it from a different perspective, perhaps more focused on other things than your relationship. But if she agrees that is the right thing because she is the one held accountable for filling the ranks and transportation for people that can get the work done, the president wants to get done, then you will be happy, she will be happy and is recommended to the president. If you cant agree that this person is significantly more successful getting it done, this person is the risk and so on, then you agree to disagree and find somebody you can both agree on. Terry so you take it to the president . Clay no. You argue your relationship with the secretary. They feel good about everybody on their team. Had, we have had people, in who were governors of states who remain nameless, and their suggestions for who they want on their team all caps from that state. They were all came from their staff as governor. Every one of them. We said, you know, this person is going to be the secretary of x for the United States of america, not United States of whatever. This will not work. This is it is not going to work. We cant agree on this. Time,l take one job at a he can we both have to agree. It is harder to do it that way. Cabinet,ixon told his you, you can pick on your own people. B your team. Disastrous. Others have said, i will pick all the people. Team,will tell you your who your direct reports are. Because you are an extremely wellqualified person. Your the secretary of something, but you have never met your direct reports before. You have no relationship with any of them. I dont believe i want that job. It is a mistake looking for a place to happen. Terry and the guy that says, i will take that job is not the 1 diversity. Ll add it is not only diversity as gender, race, it is people that bring variety of experiences whether it is state and local government, private practice or nonprofit, you look for people that do not just come out of the typical washington establishment. Washington lawyers, bankers to be sure, there are jobs for which specialized experience is necessary. You are head of the faa, you want somebody who knows every asian. Who knows aviation. You want a good, smart manager who has got some level of policy with political savvy. Is diversity something you expect the democrats to talk about and republicans not talk about . In other words, this attitude you have because democrats typically are thought of his having a giant coalition of a whole bunch of groups that have a bunch of different interest, so the number she dashed so that notion of diversity is a critical way of doing business in the democratic party, because it is a big tent with a lot of different voices, and the Republican Party is one voice articulating one position didnt seem like that to you . Way we didere is the it. The president said about a month , lets every once in month tell me how we are doing on various types of diversity. Gender, by washington insiders versus washington outsiders, by different ways of because of it is all different it if it is only the usual suspects, you are going to get only the usual type of government. So you want new thinking, you want fresh thinking, you want and all these studies about the more diverse a group of people is that is making decisions, the better the decision it is. As manyy can be defined different ways as you want to. Tell me how that compares to higher administrations. So we have talk of how many washington inside the beltway people we have pointed, outside the beltway, what percent are from mississippi, whatever, a la beanie ands, whatever alabamians, whatever. Lets work harder for whatever. , thet turned out that we first time we started looking at it was probably march. And we were very diverse. It is not a conscious ring. There were no quotas are goals. We were pretty proud of the way we, you know, had done that. Terry is that something that gets decided before he is president elect . Clay what is decided . Terry this thing about diversity. Chris president obama said early on he wanted an administration that reflected america. We needed this or this or that, it was just we should look for diversity of people and as clay says, every study that has been done on this in the context of organizational dynamics says the more diverse set of views around the table, the better the decisionmaking. Diverse could be age. Democratt think that versus republican, it is about a wellmanaged organization. I agree. When you do the policy panels going agencies, do you see that as a concern . Or it just another policy expertise