Before introduce tonights speakers. Cell phones and other devices should be turned off. Tonight is the sole event, so tonight there is one event, so if i could ask everyone to fold at their chairs at the end and leave them against the closest bookshelf or wall. Last thing is for the q a session after the presentation if i could ask you to step to my left we have a microphone. We record this and cspan is here as well, so for prosperity if we could get this all on recording that would be wonderful. Without further do i would like to introduce tonights author, cate lineberry. Be free or die the amazing story of Robert Smalls escape from slavery to union hero is her second major work. Nominated for the 2014 edgar award for best [inaudible] be free or die chronicles the heroic journey of Robert Smalls who in 1862 sees a confederate steamer and sailed his way from Charleston Harbor to a Union Blockade freeing himself and his family. As all of you will soon see and learn he his mission did not end there later becoming the first black captain of an army shift and enjoy illustrious career as a state and national legislator. Usa today declares be free or die like discovering a national heirloom. Moreover, callous publications commend her ability to elevate option overlooks events of history into the public consciousness. Cate lineberry has made a career as a staff writer and editor at National Geographic. Currently she resides in north carolina. Tonight she is with michael moore, the great great grandson of mr. Smiles. Hes an accomplished businessman and president and ceo of international africanamerican museum in charleston, South Carolina. Please join me in welcoming cate lineberry and michael moore. [applause]. We decided before the nine go into sort of ask the first question, but it feels awkward because its kates event and im sort of supporting her. We had a chance to do this once before and it looks like a great crowd. I hear its a friendly one. [laughter] lots of folks. Its great. We are going to just do a bit of a q a back and forth and in so doing reveal a bit more about the man, Robert Smalls, his life and some other stuff. I think im going to start. So, how did Robert Smalls come across your radar . You have written before, written about anything, why Robert Smalls . Thank you so much, michael, and thank you so much for being here. It means the world to have the support of robert small family. It was important to me in going in this and its been wonderful, so thank you. Im sorry to my friends for National Geographic many of whom are here who i have my back turned to a little bit. Nothing personal, i promise. I was looking for my an idea for my second book and its often a difficult path because you are trying to find a subject that you bring something new to the table within that can be hard given how many books there are out there, but my youngest brother actually sent me an article about Robert Smalls well i was in the process and i was fascinated by him. Particularly fascinated by the idea that i had never heard of him because i had done through my work at National Geographic and the smithsonian in writing for the New York Times war blog had riot read a lot of stories about the civil war and i was amazed to find you was not a veteran figure. In looking at that article i decided i wanted to know more. I wanted to know what compelled him to take such a great risk in seizing the ship and taking his family with him and risking everything after having a life up to being told he was not equal, so i was hooked from their. I felt like there was room in the marketplace for a book about Robert Smalls. Its been a while, non academic book, so thats how i have started with this. Of course, the most obvious question to ask you is what impact does having a great great grandfather whose American Hero have on you growing up . Its almost hard to know where to start on that question. From sort of a metaphysical level it has been profound in the sense that as a young person you grow up and i think we are all insecure to certain degrees about a variety of different things. I had the benefit of growing up in the 70s in boston, which while boston massachusetts has sort of the branding as being a progressive liberal place i can assure you around issues of race in the 70s it wasnt. My brother jeff back there, he and i deployed to prep school in new england during those days, so thank you for coming, but a couple levels. As a child the first it just kind of was, i mean, i grew up with Robert Smalls grandchildren. My grandmother with his granddaughter. She was born 1897. Lived with robert up until heard teenage years and further, roberts daughter lived with my mother and my grandparents for the last 22 years of her life and she had the benefit of living a long long life. She was on the planter with robert commandeered it on 1862, but she died in 1959, so my mother grew up with firsthand hearing firsthand stories about robert and she was maybe three, four years old or something and she didnt remember much about that night, but she remembered being scared and remembered just kind of i dont know if to, is right word, but that experience of being very scary and obviously was able to do much more detail about growing up and she ended up with his secretary in washington, so to make a long story short it really sustained me. It filled me with or is supported my sense of selfesteem, my sense as self. Growing up and being attacked around my sense of identity, my race, having someone like Robert Smalls who at copper something who had done big things really helped to counterbalance a lot of that in so that was wonderful and even to this day i am president of a museum in charleston and i would not be president of a museum in charleston if i had not had this connection to Robert Smalls, so its the gift that keeps on giving and i think for me, my challenge is how do i continue that gift to my children. I have four sons. One of who is named robert; correct . Yes, and i just have an obligation and im expressing that obligation to some degree in my work im doing at the museum, but most important around passing that along to my children and hopefully someday my grandchildren. Its been wonderful. So, when you were thinking about Robert Smalls and thinking about thats a cool story, to some degree there had to be something of a business decision about relevance and how the story translated to todays readers. Walk us through that process and why you thought the robert small story which is not a new story, pref setter told, but why that could be relevant today . Certainly people in buford no Robert Smalls name. Thats the town in South Carolina where he was born and raised until he was 12, but there is definitely a marketing decision when you are picking a topic. You want to make sure you are bringing something new to the table, like i mentioned, but there was also in order to really appeal to modernday readers to have so many choices, you want to do something relevant to their lives today and you cant pick up a newspaper or turn on the tv without seeing some issue regarding race in our country. It permeates every aspect of our society and Robert Smalls story is extraordinary on its own, but if you combine it with sort of the plight of africanamericans during the civil war it his story illustrates so much about what really appeals to me as well, so telling small stories during the civil war, which is the focus of the book and then also telling the story because in order to understand his story you have to understand something issues that africanamericans were facing and so many issues that our country was dealing with at the time. I learned so much in the Research Project as process of this book because i had no idea how much the decision it was whether or not the war had gone on for so long so when Robert Smalls actually sailed into freedom with his family he was considered contraband technically speaking. Most click slaves did not see themselves that way and consider themselves free, but the government of the us had not decided what theyre going to do , so i think in order for our country to get past some of the racial issues we are dealing with reactive fully understand the full story and Robert Smalls story, i mean, he was in the center of everything. He was born in buford, which was of course near port rail and that taken over by the union november 1861. It became because when the union took it over the whites in the area fled leaving behind 10000 enslaved men, women and children who did not have food and did not know how to care for themselves. The government had to figure out how to help them and it was the beginning of the first efforts of reconstruction. When he was 12 he moved to charleston, South Carolina and charleston was where South Carolina signed the order of secession. It was the capital of the confederacy, so he was really in the middle of it all and that was definitely an important aspect of the story. There was a picture of you ive seen several times i think he was in the 70s maybe at Tabernacle Church. Can you explain what the relevance had to do with the Tabernacle Church . I have been blessed to have an opportunity to talk about Robert Smalls many many times over the course of my life, hundreds of times. Of the first time i spoke publicly about Robert Smalls was april, 1976, i think i was 13 or 14 years old and had just come back from a trip to dc that everyone does. It was loosely Robert Smalls day in South Carolina that they. There was a big parade and i got a chance to write in a float with the Lieutenant Governor and afterward at Tabernacle Baptist Church where hes buried at an opportunity to unveil the best of him there and its interesting. I remember being quite terrified up to the moment thinking about speaking in front of people and something literally sort of washed over me as im sitting on this stage and sort of took that anxiety away and have never really felt anxious about speaking in public before your credit that i would do it well, but at least so whether that was robert moving his hand over me or whatever, but that was a great opportunity and our family had traveling exhibit, Robert Smalls traveling exhibit that travels around the country as artifacts and papers and models about his life and typically whenever that open someplace i go and do a little talk, so its always wonderful having an opportunity to talk to someone and if that person happens to be connected to you the better. Of the exhibit is actually in buford right now. It is. Tell me about the research process. You found out about him and decided this is someone you would be interested in exploring further. What is the Research Project process like for Something Like this . Im talking to an audience full of a lot of researchers. [laughter] so, i was trained by the best i think that National Geographic many years ago, but the way i started his eye cast a wide net in the first few weeks and months in starting a story and read as much as i can i topic kind of picking the low hanging fruit. I see what i can learn from there and typically from there you find other wrinkles and places where you want to research. I knew that Robert Smalls files were in the National Archives and that was something once he sailed the ship to freedom the union ended up hiring him as a civilian boat pilots. He could have enlisted as i believe the other men who are more that ship or, but dupont to is the admiral needed him as a pilot and the only level Robert Smalls could be enlisted as would be the very lowest, not well respected position and he never would have been allowed to be a boat pilot and he needed him as a boat pilot. He was impressed with his dad navigation skills, so many years smalls had to fight for attention. He fought many battles and in every way he was an enlisted man, but technically he was not, so id knew those files would be very relevant to his story. It was very amazing to see some of the writing, the handwriting in these notes that are still at the archives and then the Hagley Museum in wilmington, delaware, they had because of duponts connection to the story they have a lot of the papers that were delivered when smalls turned over the boat. They have the order boat on the plan or. The confederate passes and for me theres nothing like seeing Something Like that in person. It makes the story so well. Some of the archives in South Carolina also had items and then one of the eye think i mentioned this the last time we spoke, but one of the most upsetting documents i came across was a bill of sale for smalls future wife, hannah. When she was still they had not met yet and it was in the 1840s and she was sold along with her children for 800 to samuel king. On a piece of paper that it brought this history to life and i think it hit home in a way that i had not realized that it would as im sure it would for anyone looking at these documents are going to these archives in finding as much material, i never in my wildest dreams thought i would find family members that i could count on for this book. With my world war ii strategy bit easier, but did not think there would be people actively preserving smalls story and lo and behold doctor helen bowler moore was michaels mother had done that traveling exhibit and michael, the speaker for the family and takes the subject very seriously and is clearly passionate about it, so that made it easier. When you see the impact, i mean, i can see through your family the Impact Education has had in your lives. Seems like its a something that your mom has her phd and you have your mba, smalls was illiterate until he was in his 20s. Education became very important to him and he saw that as a way to freedom and passed along to his children and i think that was really instilled in the family. Seems like something you all value very much. I try to turn over every leaf i can while doing research. You never know where that step will be. I was determined to find out henrys reaction. Henry was smalls owner. I wanted to find out his reaction to smalls seizing the planter and there was not a lot of information out there, but in a family diary that was published there was a small mention that he was working in a confederate hospital in crimea during the walk and had just lost it two children from illness and quickly just mentioned that he knew about it. It wasnt a big moment i had hoped to get with a description of his reaction, but it was important for me to know what kind of reaction he had, so you never know where it will come up and at the facsimile newspaper articles were digitized and so much material is digitized helps a lot, saves hours and hours of time. Can i ask a followup . Yes. So, part of the reason why the Robert Smalls story is not better known because for certain parts of the country there was a strategic effort to mute the story. In 2012, we had a centennial commemoration commemoration in charleston commemorating him taking about to freedom and someone came up to me afterwards very emotional and upset and said im angry with you because Robert Smalls, my history, my ancestors traced to the confederacy and Robert Smalls embarrassed of the confederacy. [laughter] im not quite sure what response he expected of me and i wanted to be sure not to disrespect him personally, but you know. I just wonder if you are doing a book about abe lincoln, there would be in addition to original research there would be other authors that had uncovered things and Robert Smalls probably wasnt a whole lot of that and then this whole influence of sort of meeting again the story. I wondered how that played if at all in your research. Its one of the challenges that i think people are doing nonfiction. We can only write what we can validate i mean you can throw in only so many probably send possibly, which i certainly did. But, it definitely is an issue and the fact that he was illiterate until he was in his 20s. There was not a lot of writings to go back on. s daughter, your great grandmother did a lot of writing for him later in life, so it was deathly something i had to think long and hard about or do i have enough material here to make this book am to life and i hope i did. But, its definitely a consideration and thats why its so important to find as many sources as you can, but you are asking that question and it reminded me of i met one of the defendants who you introduced me to who was the way captain on board the night smalls seized the ship. He had decided he had his fellow white officers would go into town and spend time with their families, which was against confederate orders thus leaving the area open for smalls to do what he did. It was still miraculous he was able to do it, but this allowed it to happen in some way. We have met his descendents and he told me when we interviewed and i talked to him that he was really the first generation to not be embarrassed by the story and hes very open to his role and came to our beating in charleston, and has embraced it. I think that speaks volumes to the legacy of the south and the division in the country in some way. So, the question back to you would be about the descendents and what it was like for you to meet and who did you meet and what it was like for you to meet them . Its been really surreal to meet these descendents of other people. I have had a chance, i met this gentleman and i met a descendent of a family that owned the planter. I met the great great grandson of Samuel Dupont in philadelphia at an easy me and i sort of think of it abstractly to some degree. 150 years ago all those peoples lives were intersecting and then they broke apart and then 150 years later the arc of those lives cant connect together. Its interesting. Its odd how that happens, but i would love to get as many as those descendents together around a table and just talk about what did you hear, what did you hear, what did you sort of grow up hearing. Dupont descendent really did know much about it at all and i think being dupont you probably have lots of other things to think about. [laughter] its been interesting. Its been fascinating and i think picked up Little Things here and there. Great. Again, Robert Smalls is sort of an under told the story. Were there things as you did your research as you began writing that sort of surprised you or let me pose that another way, what surprised you most about the story . What surprised me the most was how i thought i knew a lot about what had happened during that time beyond Robert Smalls about africanamerican relationships to their owners etc. Etc. And i found a lot of it was not exactly what i thought or, i mean, the brutality was certainly there. I was aware of that, but i think that how much the lives of the people were intertwined and i found that robert was in a unique position because his mother was born as you know on the plantation and at the age of nine years old she was taken to this house in town to raise that the key children. Ripped from her mother, but she spoke a language spoken by a lot of the west african slaves who had their own languages and were pushed together on these plantations and had to come up with a way to communicate with each other, so he had the benefit of speaking the language and knowing the culture as well is understanding how to operate in the keys world and he was privy to a lot of information because he was working as the house slave which i didnt realize that extent of the difference between not. No one would ever wish anyone to be enslaved person working at home, but compared to life on a plantation it was a far better life. There was regular food, regular close and you were aware a lot of what was going on, so i think that was one of the most shocking things. I was also really shocked to find out in the aftermath of the civil war the extent to which the staff tried to reinstate slavery. I kind of knew it, but not to the extent when black codes were implemented. It was quite shocking and i think that is the history i was talking about that we all need to understand more to fully grasp the history. So, i would ask you was there anything in reading the book that surprise you . I think i read the first book about Robert Smalls, a Childrens Book back in the 60s and i love the books, but this kind of environment is home for me so i love being around books. I think for me it was an incremental kind of a experience. Every time you hear a new detail or you read about something that you didnt know sort of almost feels like youre opening a door to information that may be that information was there, but for some reason you had not accessed or something. For me it was just broadly there were lots of details. I think your research was fabulous, but i think holistically it was just sort of this uncovering of new information and it also to a certain degree because i feel it inextricably linked to him its almost like learning a bit more about your own identity and to some degree thats kind of odd. Its odd, kate and i are just getting to know each other and here she is telling me kind of some about who i am and i have had to get used to that over the years, but no, its been fascinating. How did you in thinking about writing the book and sort of fashioning the story you made a strategic decision to stop at a certain place. Can you talk about that point and why you decided there as opposed to continuing . As well as the civil bar and it launched him into his political careerment i wasnt as interesting in get into the details of legislation and i wanted to tell he story of him as a person, and as much as you can without having access to diaries and things like that, but to me, first of all, the seizing of the planter is sexy and exciting and everybody wants to know more about it, but also understanding kind of ripping off the covers of what it was like for a 12yearold boy to be sent to charleston on his own without anyone being his guardian, really. He was expected hired out for work, was allowed to save a dollar of his paycheck each month, but that was important to me and thats what i felt like made him the man he became. So i was able to talk about his life after the civil war and the epilogue, but i really wanted to focus on what made him the person that he became. Lets see. I think we have ill ask you one more question and then move to questions from the audience, so be be thinking. Used the term enslaved person throughout the book in addition to slave whenever i felt right to me. That was a decision my editor and i made, particularly after speaking to your mother, who really enlighted me about the issue i wonder if you could talk about i knew threw facebook and other means thats a preferred term for you as well. I think theres been a long journey from those days when Robert Smalls was around to for africanamericans to kind of seize the anywhere tough narrative of our lives, existence, identity, and so broadly i think it fits into that stream of sort of evolution, identity evolution. More personally, its been sort of passed down through the generations that lidarch roberts lydia, roberts mother said to him when he was young, you may enslaved but you are not a slave. I think the distinction was that this may be the condition that youre in, but this doesnt define who you are. Aiders between an adjective and a noun. And so the combination of kind of this and i dont know. The last decade or,i think people have been starting to make that distinction, and the fact ive got personal connection to that thinking, i think resonates with me. People of african descent hayes been around since the first human beings. The history in this country is like this much, in the span of time, and so i dont think that defines those people who suffered through that. I think that was what the role they were forced to play. I found even in my writing, when i would talk about enslaved men, women and children it reminded me of their humanity in some many ways. Read about the suffering with the people left behind why the lefts when the fled port royal and buford. You start grouping people together, the slaves did third or that and when you Start Talking about individual people, men, women, children, becomes much more powerful to people as well. I think just to talk really for just a minute about this museum were building, one of the galleries were building is called atlantic connections and seeks to uncover seeks to talk about this point. The fact is that the people who came here texas africans who came to america, wasnt that mono luggic group of people monolithic group of people. Miami from hundreds ofths in the and languages and religions who came from accomplished civilizations, and so i think that understanding that, i think adds to the sense of humanity that you just talked about. I think its important. Great. Well, with that, does anyone have any questions theyd like to ask . They want you to come to the microphonement. Hello. Thank you very much for your words. Im finding the book to be truly meaningful. For me one of the most moving aspects of the book was learning about how Robert Smalls ultimately purchased the house in beaumont buford. In buford. Thank you. Thank you. In buford, that in which he and his mother had been enslaved. My question is, what happened to the house . Is the house Still Standing today . Is its museum . Is it privately owned . You want to answer . Its the house remained in our family for about 100 years, and in the 1950s or so, late 1950s, just about everybody had left buford, buford had fall on hard Economic Times and so lots of my family ended up in charlotte, in north and South Carolina, and the decision was made sort of business decision to sell the house. Now its in private hands. Its on the National Register of Historic Sites or but its private residence. Great question. Thank you. Im not sure that its a good question so if not, apologize in advance. Well let you know. Its on my mind so ill ask it anyway. I havent read the book yet but i cant wait toil just finished reading douglas edgertons book what the massachusetts 54th 54th and 55th regiment i saw a reference to Robert Smalls in the book, and then your become came out so im happy to see it. You appear to be a relatively fearless kind of person who would take on a new subject and not worry bit it. Talk to my husband. Hes back there. I just am somewhat curious about the quoteunquote racial aspect of this in the sense of you being a i dont like white and blacki real as theres social constructs and all that, but you being you, writing about an africanAmerican Hero, i just wondered what your thoughts were before you took that on and how things transpired as you got into it. If it was important or not. It was incredibly important. I think i would by very naive as a writer to go into any topic without kind of thinking about every angle you possibly can. Certainly with the topic that deals with race, whatever topic that is, youve got to be ready to make sure that allure facts are correct, that one of the thing that was most important to me was being a sensitive as i possibly could to the issues. So that involved having a professor who is a specialist in africanamerican history and who is africanamerican himself, read the book. The manuscript, once it was done, consult with him throughout the process. Certainly having the family of Robert Smalls, whether he was white, black or asian, was very important to me because i my goal as a writer is not to put anyone down. Thats not my goal is to get the accurate story and in this case i wanted to elevate someone that i believed was hero. But it was very important to me to listen to any issues that came up, like when michaels mother mentioned the we were going to use the term slave by on the title. His journey from slavery to union hero from slave to union hero, and she was opposed to that. And i completely understand why now, and we made that argue. With the editor, who was very gracious about and it understood, and the last thing i wanted to do was to insult people that i was really trying to help by telling this story, the smalls family. So, it was kind of a daunting think. I dont know if i fully realized how daunting when i first started. Was overwhelmed by his story and i think he is an American Hero we should all look to. Beyond being africanamerican or obviously that was an important aspect of his story, but that is really what made be decide to do it. He is an American Hero and i wanted people to know him, and hopefully id be as sensitive as possible and relied a lot of cold readers. Had many people read and alert me to anything the felt was insensitive third confederates as well. I think that is something you have to it is our past. Especially got interested in the civil war when i was younger, when learned that i had relatives who fought on both side of war at the time battle of gettysburg. Bought were injured and a couple win to camps and i thought i was a good candidate to write the story because i i live in raleigh, north carolina, now, and lived in washington, dc for almost 20 years before living again in raleigh, and so in a long very longwinded answer to your question it was something that was very minute on very much on my mind and i hope i covered everything i can could but i was willing to take the chance to get the story out. I know the focus is on the civil war but a i have read about how Robert Smalls was one of the last africanamerican leaders to remain in power as the segregationists basically pushed out africanamerican leaders, and he had control over his constituents in buford. Can you comment on why that happened, why he was that well, control maybe it was really yeah, Robert Smalls actually served longer than any other africanamerican congressman during reconstruction. I think that was largely across five terms largely because buford was so overwhelmingly africanamerican at the time so there well a sorts of efforts by the red shirts and others to sort of grab power again, but for the longest there was a real block of africanamerican voting power in buford that sustained him. I think unfortunately he faced a lot of discrimination throughout his career and ultimately one point was accused of bribery, was sentenced to three years hard labor but only served three days before he was essentially pathwayed, but he pardoned but he want to to Supreme Court to argue his case because he felt he was not guilty and it was an effort to take him down heir career did suffer a bit from that so the last years of his career he was at the customs collector in buford ump his long reign in buford speaks to the purpose he was, respectedded by not only the Africanamerican Community and also by the whites in the area. One of the stories youll hear if you go to buford and go to his home or go on a tour past the home, is that smalls reached out to the mckee family, who had owned him and his mother, and invited hem to come back to the house and paid for the rail trip to buford and invited him to stay with him, which is want extraordinarying a of forgiveness in my book and the mckee family refused to east with him at the same table, but he continued to have them stay at his home and see served hem separately. A lot of his success was determined by the kind of person he was. Despite the efforts to knock him down. Hi. I have not read your book but i have a couple of questions. Smalls regarding his pension, i know that there was some struggle regarding him obtaining his pension. I know he served under sam dupont and i think it was Robert David Hunter who was the army commander. Im just curious, so he was is a understand he was prey mottoed rank of captain, which should have allowed him to receive his pension. When he requested when he did the investigation regarding his pension, i dont understand why he didnt call on Samuel Dupont or david hunter to assist him and verify the fact so he would be able to get his pension imi understand he later received a pension, but im a little confused why that was a struggle initially for him to receive the pension. Want me to than . Well, he was propose it to captain but not in a promoted to captain but not a military capacity. He as captain of a ship. That shapedder shortly after he was piloting boats during if the charleston campaign. They goetz close to fire and white captained of the ship panicked and hid in the bunker, the coal bunk ir, and smalls jumped in, and because he was so heroic and saved many thrives said lets make this guy a captain. He what nose a military captain he was captain of the boat. Hunter died dupont died shortly during the war, shortly after he lost his position because of what happened in charleston, dont remember exactly when hunter died but i know for many years smalls fought to get a pension for hunters wife, after he died so this is the kind of man he was. Looking out for people who helped him. But so i think it all comes down to to the idea that the was a civilian boat pilot, never an inlied man. He pretty much did it but if he had been enlist evidence he wouldnt have allowed to be a pilot. What choice did he have . The other side of that coin is that as an africanamerican, he failed certain obstacle inside the process that he wouldnt otherwise. For example, there was a law on the books that when property wad delivered to the union a certain formula was delivered the firm term of a reward and smalls never got nat for what delivered. Congress couldnt see fit to give a black man that much money. Think it was complicated, lets just say. One final question. Did he have relationship with Frederick Douglass . He absolutely did. He and Frederick Douglass met with sect of war stanton and president lincoln trying to get formerly enslaved known be included in the union. And by the way there are also a number of letters back and forth between the two men, some of which are in the exhibit that we have. I have sort of a writing process question. I was in tim wendells class when you came and talked about the secret rescue and i was curious how you feel like either your voice changed or just your maybe approach to organizing this book changed from your first major piece to this one. Thats a great question. I got my masters degree in writing from Johns Hopkins and tim wendell was my the this adviser and spoke to your class. Its an excellent question. The first time you try write a book you have no idea what youre doing. Your editor want outside to have it done bay certain deadline and theyre not holding you hand itch think my experience with as bag research at National Geographic, really compelled me to make sure i got every single detail right. But i learned is you have to humanize the characters more as well. I mean i was so afraid of attributing something that didnt really happen that i was probably a little bit gun shy about that. I think with experience you gain so much. You understand the process you understand the feedback youll get from your editor. So definite lay learning process, and i think getting your legs on the first book is to be expected unless there are fa better writers out there than i am. Thank you. Hi. Hi. First of all, let me thank you so much for doing this because i do have many of us do dr. Andrew billingsleys book on smalls. Many of us knelt was more of a story about small himself and you have done that. Where were you in the process ill ask both of you when the massacre at mother emanuel occurred and what do you think the impact will be from that on your work as well as your work at the museum. Good ahead. Talk about the book. I had written the proposal. It had gone with my agent had taken it to publishers and we had a publisher interested and had acquired the book, and so i think when this horrific event happened, it just reiterated the idea that this was such a relevant story to today. Reverend Clement Pinckney who was a victim admired robert smoltses. Skip gates, a professor at harvard interviewed him and he specifically mentioned Robert Smalls. So i was very poignant to mitchell was already invested in the story, working on it, and wanting it to be the belles die bit was a shocking reminder just how much we still how far we have to go in is country. Visited on one of my further trips to charleston and there were a lot of flowers still out. It had been months and months but it was pretty moving moment, and just a tragedy. I think in trying to build museum that seeks to tell these untold stories, like Robert Smalls and so many others, there are lot of challenges and officialer mayor riley, who conceived of this museum. Wonderful, mayor 0 honor years. Yeah. He actually first talked about the museum in his state of the city address in the year 2000. So its been percolating for a long time. Think at first the mayor had to build the political case to explain why we needed this museum, and believe it or not, ill say this humbly and with respect, there were a lot of people then, as there are some now, in charleston, who dont really understand why we need this museum. Charleston is this really beautiful city, and i think mayor riley has done an amazing job in sort of building it, but theres an element, sort of a romantic antebellum, old south kind of element that drives a lot of major industry, which is tourism, that really is uneasy about africanamerican history and certainly the role that played in building charleston and in building this nation. So, i think to your question, when the massacre another mother emanuel occurred, i think it immediately caused people to it was shocking, of course to everyone, and it caused people to rethink these relationships and things that everyone thought was these issues that everybody thought were kind of being managed or were okay, and for me now, a couple years later, it is really its a very powerful influence on things. Our office if i was standing in front door right now, mother ean Emanuel Church is closer than the front door, right across the street. You mentioned the flowers. Every day i see people go and sort of pay respects and leave flowers and other sorts of things. It remains of course, just to take a step back, with the trial and that the Legal Process continues to sort of progress on that. I ate just kind of hanging there. And charleston continues to evolve and to grow and to try to figure out how to deal with these kinds of things. I think the museum hopes to try to be a part of contributing to those conversations and bring a positive voice. Theres a great tour in dismiss with the work at the museum and i was going to ask, how can we as average citizens and supporters, help in what youre doing, and you have a lot of truth here and the one thing id like to see come out of museum im a frequent visitor to charleston and have been to mother emanuel and did my first common communion there, and it is to tell the truth because it had been so hidden and kept secret and hidden, despite the romanticism, because charleston is a beautiful city. Now i bring forth my friend cindy, who is a charleston union. Im not. I wish had that pedigree. The people from charleston are greatly held in great esteem, black and white, from the rest of the state. Know you did a lot of research and a bit of a researcher myself i have a lot of respect for that. This is an untold story to the nation, within the state of South Carolina, certainly within the Africanamerican Community, we grew up with this story so theres an oral history that is very strong throughout the state, and i assume much stronger in buford and charleston. So my question is do you have enough oral history that you tapped into to get the perspective of the people there . Because Robert Smalls every other person i know of is telling veronica claims to be descended from Robert Smalls because of the power of his person. So did you get any oral history to contribute to your understanding of what happened . Yeah. Great question, did i get any oral history to contribute to the telling of the story. Absolutely. I think not only going to places where your story takes place is so important to get the feel of the place, but you have to talk to people who have opinions and often times things are wrong that sometimes get passed down, but often times theyre right, and i was fortunate in that dr. Moore, michaels mother, grew up as her grandmother, elizabeth, who was four years old on the planter. So when helen tells me something, i believe helen, and most of her material i was that i was able to verify was absolutely true. So i think as a researcher, you want to get the oral history and then you have to evaluate it based on sources. Very important to me to not just reiterate stories that have been passed down that dont have any bay is . Basis in truth but often times oral history is a great beginning and an important part to get a full story. The corollary to that, the question about the race being an issue for you as an author. I think its extremely important to recognize this man as an American Hero, not as an africanAmerican Hero. Had he been white and delivered that ship, it would have been a great act. Would have been president. [laughter] i dont mean it that way but the fact that it was hidden and not spoken about more generally, and with the help of the texas board of education made sure its not in any of the history books. But it is it was very much a part of the lore and the pride of the people of South Carolina. Yes. Your point is exhelp, excellent, this is an american story. Who is Robert Smalls father is unknown and he was likely white. This is a black bloc and black and white story and he is American Hero everyone should know about. The think about the museum, identity on the side of gadstons wharf. Thank you for the prompt. We have the wonderful blessing to be able to create a museum on the site that where almost half of all the enslaved africans who came to america took their first steps. So its really sacred ground. Theres an amazing africanamerican History Museum in this city, and i hope yall had a chance to be there. Its leader, lonny bunch, says he told us one time that there are very, very few sacred sites of africanamerican history in the entire continence, hemispheres, but gadstons wharf is one of them. We have an enormous opportunity. I like to position it as an opportunity but most of the time i think of it as a responsibility and i think of its an obligation. I think sort of a north star for me in project i have two, one is ancestors, we have to create this in a way nat makes them proud. And then the other is my children. We have to build this in a way that delivers that legacy and those stories to them and helps them to have a Firm Understanding of who they are. So, its really important work, and im blessed to be able to do it. We have time for one more quick question. Thank you so much for both of you being here. Im trying to speak into this. I havent had the pleasure of reading the book but what stood out is your constant mentioning or mr. Smalls being taken to charleston at age 12, and onwho has kin in charleston and is there quite often, if you go to Avery Institute you see the badges that africanamerican people had to wear just to get a few step around town. You forward that the town has survived plagues and epidemics, that matters of science, medicine, construction, art, all have hearty contributions from african descended people that are very physically present so its very mocking that i sense that spurred you what you described earlier, charleston avoiding race and i wander if you you have said a lot but can you say more about especially a man being brought to that city, strictly ordered, the whole city was strictly ordered. How does the fit into that kind of history and extension of it . Thank you. Go ahead. I think charleston was a really unique place in the institution of slavery. There were traditional sort of plantation enslaved people, people rice was the real economic driver in colonial america. Charleston what the richest city in america for over 100 years. Near the that old as a country. Charleston was the richest city because of rice and profitability of slavery. 17 out of the richest 18 people people in the temperature triwere in charleston, rich e man in the world was in charleston to colonial america. So charleston was a lot happening. So traditionally, sort of plantation enslaved people there were on the other end over the spectrum, free people of color think called them, and then people like robert and his wife, hannah, who were more sort of urban enslaved folks. Robert and hannah lived an away apartment above a barn on east bay street. So my sense is from what ive read, from wham i understand there was this really creative mix of people, and they enter acted with each other, learned from each other, grew, and it i dont think robert i think that is one of the reasons robert was able to do what he did because not only did he grow up the circumstances he grew up in allowed him to dream big dreams, and then to try to wonder, well, why arent i free . But then he was around people that it was a stimulating kind of a social situation as well. I dont is in directly answers your question but from my privilege perspective that is part of it. I would say just to add quickly that Robert Smalls, what i found in doing the book, is that he embraced every opportunity that came hills way. So charleston had a lot of restricts in place, slave badges, et cetera, but he found ways around them and thats what is particularly extraordinary about his story. He was determined to create a life for himself that was not determined by someone else and thats remarkable to me. Thank you. The one thing, if we have just another 30 seconds left. Its relevant to this. It always sort of astoundses me how shocked people are that robert did he do dr. Andrew. Took this boat and sailed today freedom. Youre starving and have not eaten in two week but your put in a room with this amazing buffet in front of you, and then people leave and close the door, youre going to robert wanted to be free. He had saved money, he had tried to buy the freedom of his wife and children, hadnt gotten that far yet, and then saw this opportunity and he took it. [inaudible] tell your friends. We have time for one more question if there was someone in the back. I have a question. When youre doing your research and doing your writing, we write a lot about the men in history. Did you find yourself sorry did you find yourself balancing out the women in his life and how they were important . Its a great question. I think sadly we dont have a lot to go on. Hannah, i think, had big impact on this trip. Think she is an unsung hero. Hannah was his wife, and i was determined to find an interview with him, and i looked and looked and looked and only found one mention of her in one article and it was there was a correspondent in buford at the time and happened to interview her on the street, and she explained that they had all decided, itself looked like they were going to be captured when they were trying to escape that rather than going back to slavery they would hold hands and jump overboard with their children and drown themselves. So, as much as i absolutely ray door Robert Smalls, i think im biased as a woman, but hannah and lydia, particularly, his mother, really instilled in him such a sense of empowerment that i think could have very easily been lost to him. So, i wish that there was more could i have added. Certainly was interested in the two women who were brought onboard the ship. We dont exactly know their relationship to smalls but i found an article later that said one of the young women on there, he hosted once he was able to buy the home on prince street, he hosted a wedding for her and he considered her his adopted daughter, but what history well never know. And thats my fiction is sometimes a failing, you can add that. I think lydia, his mother, is the real central figure in his life. Dont think Robert Smalls is Robert Smalls without his mother. Robert had the opportunity to grow up, the first 12 years, with her, and traditionally once children got to the point where they could be monetized they were whiskedway and sent to work and robert had a chance to grow up to her. Mentioned the quote. That speaks to something that she invested in. Other examples where she sort of took him places to see the realities of slavery that he might have been shielded from otherwise, and so the other just quirk of history, she while he was in charleston when the civil war broke out. She was still in buford, and the battle of port royal, november 1861, freed not legal live but effectively freed her so while robert was in charlestoning are dreaming about freedom i can only imagine it worked on his nerves that his mom was free. I think that was another element to this. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much for coming. We appreciate it. [applause] thank you for coming out. If youre interested in big the book you can get it at our register the front of the store. And the line will start forming to the left. [inaudible conversations] heres look at the current best selling nonfiction books according to politics and prose book store here in washington, dc. Topping the list, robert write, his thoughts on the benefits of buddhism. Followed by remember the ladies, a look at key players in at the National Suffrage movement. Third, the world and reflects on americas global standing in, notes on a foreign country. Next is devils bargain from Bloomberg Business weeks josh where Washington Green on the relationship between President Trump and his former chief strategist, steve bannon. Followed by a recount the turning point of the vietnam war, hue, 1968. Our look at the bestselling nonfiction books according to politic and prose book store continues with minnesota senator al franken memoir, june of the seven. In seventh it neil degrass tysons explore asia of exploration of the universe,. Next, film critic, examines the moving production, and wrapping up, jd vans with the recollection of his childhood in a rust belt town in ohio. Hillbilly elogy. Men of the offs have or will be appearing on booktv and youwam them on our web site, booktv. Org. The director 0 of the Fordham University tphres new york. We have two books in part of our regional, and one is a worldly affair, new yorks and the united nations. Their unlikely relationship. So talking about how the u. N. Found it place in new york amongst some controversial, and then when rockefeller donate the land cement it his plate in the current location, theres a restaurant open to the public itself if you make a reservation 24 hours in advance and the original home of the general secretary was in flushing, now queens. A book looking at jersey city and an artist commune. People think of soho and williamsburg that war enclaves that ballooned into mega metropolis. And theres jersey city. Outside of the region we have a neat book called google me and its a translation from the french. So there are three lead books. What would you consider Fordham University press press specialized in. Philosophy and theology but intermingle. So thats our kind of most known for that and also reflect the mission of the university because we have a very strong philosophy and theology department. Then in 2010 i started the empire state edition in print. The press is 110 years old. The director of Fordham University press in new york. [applause] gar. Hello. Pardon me while get the microphone set up good afternoon, and welcome to the Commonwealth Club of california. Im Vice President of news at kqed in San Francisco and ill be your moderator for the program. And now it is my pleasure to introduce todays distinguished speaker, garry kasparov. Yay. Woohoo