Minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] the Senate Foreign relations hearing will come to order. For over a year weve seen putins invasion and brutality on the people of ukraine. Russian air strikes have destroyed schools, flattened apartment buildings, killed mothers and babies in maternity wards. We have witnessed deliberate strikes on bomb shelters where children and their caregivers have gone for production and a systemic targeting of civilian infrastructure. Its a light nightmare that does not give up. And village schools, airport hangars and whatever they could find and turned them makeshift torture chambers. Theyve kidnapped ukrainian children. Raped ukrainian women and girls and executed ukrainian men and. Make no mistake, these acts are war crimes and crimes against humanity. Mass atrocities that putin and his underlings must be held responsible for. Even as the war rages on, we must do everything we can to gather and preserve evidence on these atrocities, and i want to hear from you, what the government is doing to support the efforts and i commend the state Department Early in the war calling russias atrocities what they are, war crimes and for a widespread and systemic attack against the civilian population, in other words, that they are crimes against humanity is laudable. Now, ambassador, i commend you personally for your tireless effort and work shining a light on atrocities around the world and to combat impunity for war crimes and crimes against humanity, from burma, to syria, to ethiopia and it cannot be just you and your department and colleagues, our government and the International Community must follow up with actions. Ukraines prosecutor general has chronicled more than 88,000, 88,000, alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity to date. 88,000. And that number continues to grow. Thanks to the testimony of brave ukrainians who suffered unspeakable horrors and risked their lives. Theyre rallying to seek accountability. Not taking concrete action for putins atrocities to justice would set a dangerous precedent. Last year, on a bipartisan basis, Congress Gave the executive branch important new authorities to provide information and other support to the International Criminal courts war crimes investigation. And i commend the icc for issuing arrest warrants for putin and his socalled commissioner for childrens rights. But here in the United States, while we may be saying the right words, and calling out these crimes, the administration has not used the tools we have provided to help hold putin accountable. Its simply inexcusable. It calls into question our reserve and commitment to justice. There are real consequences to this inaction and the rest of the world is taking note. Now, i know there are many who support assisting the icc, including our witness today. The state department has encouraged working with the icc to bring putin to justice, but its no secret that the department of defense is the holdup. I asked the department of defense to participate in todays hearing so we could better understand why they are blocking implementation of federal law. Whatever their thinking, a refusal is unacceptable in this situation, blocking critical u. S. Assistance into atrocities in ukraine and is dangerous to our system of government. The Defense Department does not get to pick and choose which laws it will owe say. Let me repeat that. The Defense Department does not get to pick and choose which it will. That could lead to Holding Russian officials accountable as we continue to hear about Russian Forces boiling peoples hands in water, systematically raping women and killing innocent citizens in cold blood. We cannot sit and do nothing. Theres a response to the unjust war, but we must make sure we do not end with condemnation, we must seek and deliver accountability. I look forward to exploring what more can be done to ensure that putin and others are brought to justice for war crimes, crimes against humanity and aggression including by supporting the icc. We must show that this is about more than words. There must be and will be accountability for the crimes against the ukrainian people. With that, let me turn to the distinguished Ranking Member. Thank you, mr. Chairman to start with. Let me say for the record, im in full agreement for the remarks that the chairman made in his Opening Statement on the subjects that he covered. Im glad that were discussing this important subject here today. I wish wed have had time to have a ukrainian witness who can testify to the horrors, all those been publicized and i understand at times its always an issue and like the chairman, id like to have had somebody here from the Defense Department to talk to us about why they think they dont have to comply with the laws that we passed. Doesnt make sense, but were not done with that yet. Im sure they know that. The atrocities putin committed in ukraine quickly rose to the level of genocide. To cover every aggressor the master planners to the foot soldiers. The recent decision to rest the childrens rights . For their despicable role, hundreds of thousands will go to russia, in particular children. Torturing citizens before transferring them into russia are depraved as ukrainian soldiers and their families by the thousands. 85000 potential war crimes. Its important they exercise jurisdiction over crimes domestically. The essential systems documentation of the war crimes and the committee will see that enforce the oversight capacity. We cannot allow putin to get away with vicious crimes and impunity is not an option. Look over to during from you and with the u. S. Can do to support its increase. Thank you, senator. The global criminal justice investment secretary of state and Department Leadership on issues related to the prevention of and response to crimes including war crimes, crimes against humanity side and genocide. World remind scholar on human rights law and significant experience in practice. Human rights conflict resolution so we welcome you, your full statement will be included in the record without objection. Id ask you to summarize in about five minutes or so the committee so we can have a conversation with you and you are recognized. Good afternoon distinguished members of committee. It is an honor and a privilege to appear before you global criminal justice. As president zelenskyy noted this month there can be no peace without justice in ukraine. This is justice for millions whose lives have been disrupted and destroyed after results of senseless unlawful, unprovoked terrible war of conquest. My office in collaboration with other offices within the u. S. Government and Many International partners is working to strengthen five pathways to justice to uphold International Norms we hold dear and ensure those most responsible are held to account. We welcome your support. The first pathway involves International Courts and institutions and efforts include working to establish and renew the mandate of United Nations inquiry devoted to ukraine. The moscow mechanism of the organization for security in europe and we have sought to intervene in ukraines case against russia under the Genocide Convention for the International Court of justice and as mentioned the prosecutor has made his first move and open an investigation into the matter of ukraine and the arrest warrant. We are grateful gestation congress enacted in support of the investigation in ukraine which may be the most consequential war crime investigation. The second pathway to justice aims to strengthen and increase capacity of ukraine institutions to document, prosecute crimes in ukraine court. This is the front line of justice. Never reported 90000 potential prosecutable crimes. The Advisory Group funded by my office with the European Union and United Kingdom we are providing expert assistance and advice, expert training in the whole range of investigative needs. Working them in the field to strengthen their ability to prosecute cases and six through 90000 possible crimes. This includes focus attention to Sexual Violence that we know ukraine documented by the United Nations and other reputable bodies. The third great is supporting litigation that may happen. In europe we witnessed mobilization of prosecutorial operating under the umbrella to coordinate strategy, track potential is hundred and share information and evidence. United states is participating in these efforts for understanding with individual space to the joint Investigative Team for european states and working with Civil Society organization and impunity organizations providing potential evidence to National Prosecutor or investigation. The fourth pathway to justice permitting impunity for russias illegal war will embolden other actors engaged in similar relations sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence. We are supporting the establishment of the prosecution of the crime of aggression and those most responsible rooted in ukraines thoracic system and enhanced by multiple International Elements in the form of personnel, expertise, structure, the court, information sharing and financing. The final pathway here to the United States involving continuing to strengthen u. S. Law and ensuring the u. S. Does not become a safe haven for those who commit International Crime such as those committed in ukraine but also elsewhere. A monumental step by passing the war crimes act to enhance federal work rights statues but theres more that can be done for prosecutors to prosecute International Crime. United states against liturgy. Crimes against merely encompasses murder, torture, rape and when they are committed in a widespread attack against the civilian population and pursuant to a policy of state or an organization to quit the attack they can be committed during our conflict but also in times of peace so they can be useful in other situations such as jobs with the prc subject uyghurs continues campaign of genocide and crimes against humanity. Passing legislation will better align long with friends and allies and empower u. S. Prosecutors and investigators to prosecute the range of International Crime. There can be no secure or lasting peace without Justice Holding russia to account for war crimes, crimes against humanity within the ukrainian people, it is foundational to the defense of u. S. Values and maintenance of a peaceful, just and secure world. We welcome the support of congress to achieve these goals in advance these pathways to justice and position of the United States as a Leader International justice so thank you and i welcome your questions. Last year because of the International Criminal take and spoke with the prosecutor. We had a good conversation. I understand the department of defense has expressed concerns distinct the investigation and open the door to prosecution of service members, something largely discussed by legal experts. I raised this issue, it was not his intention to do that. If anything, he actively solicited the support of the United States particularly in information to substantiate the cases. Do you share the concerns raised by the department of defense . In my role as lead diplomat in the justice space, i would work tirelessly to ensure anyone, if it were ever to come to best again but that is not a risk at this time. The prosecutor announced his prioritize any investigation into entry afghanistan and is turning attention is appropriate to ongoing crimes against humanity committed by the taliban and other nonstate actors in afghanistan. We know the court operates under principle of complement so if a National System steps up, the course was that back and thats what the prosecutor said had a robust system of military justice and war crimes act so we are in a good position to take care of matters that might emerge in the future. I do not think by assisting that involves nonstate party we are at all undermining our ability to protect against charges brought or any interest in u. S. Personnel in the future. I appreciate that because my own discussion in front of our members, he said the same thing so i dont understand why the department of defense is not providing critical information so he can get accountability here. Why does the state Department Support providing information and the ukraine investigation . What we have to contribute . How critical is our assistance . If you imagine the United States on the front line given all weve done and investments weve made in pursuing justice in ukraine, we are uniquely positioned to assist, given assets would have an intelligence we have and brilliance of diplomats and experts within the state department and elsewhere, anyways we can support this including witness protection and witnesses that may want to give testimony, is always in the past we have assisted so theres a range of ways we can be of assistance and none of that would jeopardize. I think it strengthens our position because it shows gives her works it important to maintain open lines of communication with organizations such as the court the other International Organizations we were disagree with and important to engage in constructive helpful assistance when we can the shows we are good faith partner in this regard so when we have issues we know who to call. You have lines of communication open and have built trust and then reliable and call upon if we ever find ourselves in the defensive posture. Senator is pursuing legislation on the same thing. One thing we heard is the icc is never had the nature of the charge of the nationstates largest russia and as an adversary incense and putin dictates what that does. How did the icc protect witnesses about putins atrocities . The reach we have seen of what russia is capable of doing going outside other countries to pursue people speak out against the regime, what more do they need to do to protect his victims and its own security and Cybersecurity Infrastructure . This is unlike anything the icc has ever undertaken so can you speak to that . Ive heard the same things to my visits. The court feels is under assault and is something theyve never seen it has the ability to infiltrate in ways previous countries did not present. You may have read and in turn masquerading as a graduate student, we are not prosecuting the individual for other measures because living under cover. It means they tried to protect themselves and given our tech sector and excellent cybersecurity, understanding and skills and personal, we are uniquely positioned to audit protections and make recommendations how they can strengthen their ability to protect evidence and witnesses much matter how much open source evidence, they are being generated. They will rely upon individuals willing to step up because they can bear witness to what theyve experienced and we need to keep them safe or they will not be able to proceed effectively. Thank you. I think its pretty obvious this is not a partisan issue. Do you agree with me in that regard . I do appreciate the cooperation on this legislation and supporting my work and the work my office. There are dark places about involvement in ukraine but my experience is a thin layer. I feel ive had nothing but support from the members. Interesting both the german and i talked about for whatever Reason Department of defense is pushing back on doing what we told him to do and we are not going to tolerate an agency saying we dont like that so we are not going to do that with. The other thing i was involved in drawing that legislation. Youre always cognizant of the fact that the could be pitfalls and could be a problem putting them in jeopardy. We avoided that and that specifically which to see that that didnt happen yet we wind up with the same criticism. Hours not protected by anybody from the department of defense as we drafted that. We didnt draft it under a basket, nobody came forward and said its a problem and now theyre talking about it being a problem so i hope you will join us to deal with what needs to be done. I agree legislation is carefully crafted, surgical in fact in the other protections remain in place. More than 100 bilateral treaties negotiated with partners in which they promised not to refer to the court so all protections remain in place. Thats what it is designed to do, designed without affecting any others in place that i worked. We will reiterate with the department very soon. With your background and experience, could you talk about how International Crime of aggression could be established to address russias actions against ukraine . And talking i guess what i envision is separate from icc and i really appreciate it. The icc does not so is giving rights to proposals to establish a special tribunal. The crime of aggression as the original sin is essentially that unleashed the other war crimes and rightly so thats why we are supporting this. As we look at the different models and drew upon my own Academic Experience and experience as a practitioner, i was guided by five main principles. Number one, maximize crime. We want to create an institution nimble and efficient in the ability to work. Number three, who want to create an institution legally sound within the system and International Law. Number four, we want to make sure it is complementary to other efforts out there including igc but also International Center for the prosecution of aggression that stood up and we want to garner widespread cross Regional International support in this effort so looking at all that, we have landing upon a proposal for International Special chamber will tribunal deeply rooted within the ukrainian National System but benefit from assistance from a number of international sources. States in the private sector could be in this endeavor and could take the form of personnel in the way the United States has always in and could take the form of funding, cooperation and it could be based outside of ukraine for security reasons but moved back into ukraine when the time was right and the benefit of continuing to assess ukrainian judicial system and etc. Which will pay long dividends in the future as ukraine will reform itself and align so thats why we are proposing this in the groups ukraine convened to bring experts together a diplomatic and technical level to find consensus to move forward. I want to ask, i was fascinated, whether it International Law was fascinated by what would would Call International jurisdiction or unified jurisdiction and used it as a result of atrocities. Are you familiar with the concept . Second, is there some thought given to using got is a jurisdictional foundation for this type of an organization . You are referring to extraterritorial jurisdiction, u. S. Has not in our own code. We do usually have added requirement the defendant present here the gross but does matter the nationality of the victim or the place the crime was committed because there International Crimes so i am familiar with this experience, its remarkable to see them move against high level figures and in many respects inspired other states. Aggression does not work well under that model because many states have not codified crime of aggression in their code. Ukraine has a position and they are doing active prosecution now but they would like to see the effort because they see russias war not just an assault on the territory but international no space order system is at large and work the Community Involved in the everett selects a secondary reason to pursue international support. I guess it wouldnt be as concerned, i suspect you are concerned with countries not having a specified statute in place regarding this. I guess new ground on this jurisdictional idea, i wouldnt be as concerned about the fact that other countries did not necessarily have that in their body of law so ill give that some thought. It just means they would have to prosecute against crimes against immunity and charges does make sense, many acts of the questions are committed by war crimes, all caps on critical elements so it can be done is the short answer. Going to follow up in reference a resolution that is and i filed today that supports your input but takes a different approach. Theres no question about the crime of aggression in the committee crimes against humanity and genocide, we had hearings in this committee that established law and hearings in helsinki and all the conditions for genocide committed by russia and i strongly support efforts to help icc strongly support efforts to help ukrainian prosecutor in any way we can put these are crimes against humanity and they do need International Tribunal as you acknowledged. The problem with the approach you are taking within the ukrainian model is you are using this system and raises the question of perceived impartiality. I dont know how you overcome that with the method you are pursuing. You will have legal immunity claims because the entity committed or individuals who committed these crimes are not going to be party to this so its a simple approach establishment of the United Nations, that is the body responsible for International Tribunals. The only appropriate attention the gifts of catholic to accountability and the greatest hope that will deter future atrocities so tell me why we are not going to the entity that would remove any question for impartiality and immunity. Thank you for that. Think there serious concerns moving forward end of the General Assembly in the legal front also practical for. The body within the United Nations system is the Security Council. Russia is a privilege of the veto. General assembly has the ultimate power. The General Assembly can only make recommendations, cant take action so cannot compel states to act nor compel states to cooperate so the question is, click the General Assembly create record that could exercise compulsion against an individual . A stronger claim than one state establishing tribunal under the law. International so ukrainian system, is international. You run into comparable challenge of legitimacy of the entities before the tribunal. My professor used to say jurisdiction is power so the power with this model is ukrainian National System which has jurisdiction over crimes committed on ukrainian territory. General assembly doesnt necessarily, its not clear it could break serious new ground to exercise coercive jurisdiction over unwilling defendant and subject that defendant to imitations on liberty if there convicted but i do want to talk about practical concern speaking to diplomats in new york, concerned whether we have the votes in the General Assembly to create this so look at the voting pattern. We see general resolutions calling for justice garner 140 votes. The minute General Assembly is asked to do something, it drops so even the creation of damage, only 90 something votes. The Human Rights Council garner 93 votes and concern states that dont want to be caught in the cold war dynamics, voting for something, he would lose legitimacy. I would think we have to engage other countries and cannot be sold u. S. Effort and cannot sit on the sidelines, its going to be collective action you got to nurture this before you take it to a vote but seems to me the final attention is worth consideration. I would urge you im glad youre bringing tribunal, i think you need one, i dont know how you can remove the perceived challenges using one country legal system or International Tribunal. To me as an attorney, it seems problematic for the type of attention you are trying to get international legitimacy. There are legal questions immunity and impartiality as well and i segue to that. Its either an in internatie ukrainian port or an International Body would be free to assert jurisdiction because when the person so longer in a position it dissipates. Partiality question the response to that is the International Community needs to step up and invest in this process within ukrainian courts and that ensures it does not appear to be some version compasses in fact, scrupulously fair, every defendant is entitled to the folder process protections, and only those cases that are based on evidence and the merits, a conviction are brought to justice. I would point out i think the same problems of giving International Cooperation for International Tribunal under ukrainian as you would utter generous silicone preps more. Senator ricketts. Thank you very much , mr. Chairman. Thank you, madam ambassador. April last year the horrific images of corpses littering the streets surface and made entire world realize putins goal was not just territorial conquest in ukraine but the brutal repression of ukrainian people. And the nightmare that begin continues to this day in ukraine. Thats why this hearing is so important that ukraine people deserve justice and want to thank you, madam ambassador for your efforts to help get the ukrainian people that justice. Even though were talking about a lot of the legal and jurisdictional aspects of how to bring putin and his cronies to justice, i want to make clear that in the short term the biggest single thing we can do to make sure ukraine and ukrainian people get justice is to make sure that ukraine wins and putin loses. That has to happen. Thats where you think about what the biden administrations been doing, its been slow in response for request ukraine with regard to the types of weapons they need, whether advance himars rocket, patriot systems, abram tanks and the f16 training that seems like theyre always a step behind almost as if theyre trying to live up to Winston Churchills ask them about americans would do the right thing at with exhausted all of the possibilities. But in this case this erratic and slow behavior is costing the ukrainian see opportunity to achieve the victory and also costing ukrainians lives. The question i i want to get o has to do with the abduction that senator risch mentioned about ukrainian children. According to Ukrainian National databases, russia has forcefully transferred over 19,000 19,000 ukrainian children to its territory. However this number is likely much higher. Some children have been taken from occupied areas where the parents were asked to sign a release form without being told their children would be taken away and not coming back. Others including those his parents were killed by Russian Forces have been forcefully adopted in russia. Yale University Community research lab identified 32 32 integration camps where children are indoctrinated in russias history, propaganda, language and culture. These monstrous abductions are part of a general genocide which we talked about already to erase ukraines identity by stealing their future. They have rightly been condemned as a war crime by the International Community and with icc issued an arrest warrant in march for Vladimir Putin and his children rights commissioner. So even though we have focused our information on this or attention on this and Ukrainian Government, ngos, advocates have been trying to get the children back but the numbers are run for hundred of the potential 19,000 or more. What more ambassador can be done to assist parents . As a father of three children it is the most heartwrenching thing i can think of having her children taken away from your never to see them again. What else can we be doing . Its a a horrific feature f this war. I agree, its terrifying to imagine what those children are experiencing and anguish those parents must feel. I know there are multiple efforts afoot. Some of them are in the accountable space but theres also very quite humanitarian work being done to try and get those children back and create a list of them so we know when they were last seen, where the may of god, trying to utilize open source investigative techniques to identify them in photographs for example, that the russians are trotting out of happy ukrainian citizens as they are now being subjected to reeducation to forget their home culture. Theres much that can be done here. I was quite happy to see the icc move forward on this as their first set of charges. Its a great reach of the geneva conventions and would be interesting to see whether additional charges forthcoming on the basis of that. I share your concern and this is something we should be working across government to rectify. Is her enough Legal Support for families to help recover the children . There are. There are. I have been to ukraine and met with the team that is focused on the families, the survivors and their working very hard to get them the resources they need in order to try and find where those children are into the can to get them back. Many times requires parents traveling to russia to actually physically bring their children back and theyre doing that which is remarkable. What about targeting perpetrators of this for war crimes, prosecution and all that . Are we doing enough to be up to target the people who are facilitating that . What is remarkable about this particular crime is that the two key defendants now have essentially admitted to it. And i bragged about it and have praised each other what they claim to be doing in a humanitarian basis when we, in fact, note that no humanity in grants to be doing this especially when it is russia itself that is creating the dire circumstances but the stone t risk in the first place. They gail study you mention which is funded by the state department, they are looking to holsters of open Source Information including many of these photographs and trying to use facial Recognition Software for example, didnt find individuals who may be future distended in cases and war crimes and crimes against humanity for the scribe a. Mr. Chairman, may i have one more question . Thank you. So also last week i think Ukrainian Government is talking a hell of his complicity in removing about 2000 ukrainian children. What is a a state department doing with belarus and then going along with this horrible crime . Yes belarus theres no question is quite complicit in russias war of aggression in ukraine and i think its important to focus when we think about this aggression tribunal that belarus and belarusian individuals could be subject to prosecution under this tribunal. We focus on russia but to the extent they are complicit and one of the grounds of committing the crime of aggression is longer territory to be used to launch acts of aggression against a third state. Belarus is very much implicated in this set of crime. Thank you very much. Senator shaheen. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, ambassador for being here. Theres been a fair amount of discussion about the justice for victims of war crimes act that was passed. I was proud to be a cosponsor of that. And i know as the chairman and others have mentioned there been obstacles to actually fully implementing the legislation. But can you talk about, we have talked about dod. Understand the Security Council has also been obstacle. Can you talk about how you were working in interagency process to actually administer this legislation . And are there other barriers you think this committee could be helpful with or congress could be helpful with . Yes. Thank you. We do proceed on the basis of an interagency consensus and so were we are working very hard to work the consensus. Those conversations remain ongoing and we are grateful to the new legislation. The department of justice as well is quite happy with the new Prosecutorial Authority they have picked their creative this workout, were crimes accountability team, appointed a very seasoned senior prosecutor to be the war crimes counselor focus on looking at those cases that might have u. S. Nexus as well, and contributing to what our friends and allies are doing and the oh National Systems within europe. Its really a fullcourt press. Are you also discussing the idea of restitution and reconstruction . I noticed one of the Asset Forfeiture items, those dollars were put towards ukrainian reconstruction. Are you discussing how that will unfold as well and can you give us some insights into that . Thats right. In fact, with at the first circumstance in which an acid has been able to be liquidated which is exciting to see. This will be an enormous endeavor to rebuild, reconstruct ukraine given the damage that is the rub my russias war of aggression. The ukrainians have put forward a proposal for a register of damages that is been very well received by the International Community and to give the council of europe recently at its summit which it has not held a summit for several decades has blessed this project. It would be based in the hague. The idea is individual entities groups businesses can register the damage theyve expressed advance of russian perpetrators, that when there are a body a pool of assets made available those could go towards helping to assist those individuals to compensate them for the harm, tangible harm come psychological harm but also business on the Small Businesses have experience. The ideas to build some sort of a claims commission that would adjudicate those claims and help those individuals and businesses get back on their feet. I i think that would really e helpful and if theres anything we can do to support that please let us know. Thank you. You also talked about the commission on aggression that could be formed. One of the other sad commentaries on so many conflicts is the Sexual Assault and rape element that is so much a part of crimes and particularly war crimes, and obviously weve seen a number of reports about that with respect to the war in ukraine. One suggestion that has been made to me that i would like to get your analysis of is the idea of setting up a separate commission that deals only with those sex crimes. Do you have any thoughts about whether that might be helpful, and if that would set up a duplicate process that would not be helpful, or if because that has been such a focus of so many conflicts that that would help to shine a light on our inability to address those kinds of crimes . Yes, thank you senator shaheen. We know these crimes are historically underreported and under prosecuted. And for reasons we all understand including statement that is associated with this in families and communities and we all need to work to rectify that. One of the main goals of the atrocity crimes Advisor Group i mention we are funding and supporting with the uk and the eu is to bring more of a survivor centered approach to prosecutions in ukraine. The prosecutor general is often the first to admit that is not the way they had done things. Witnesses were witnesses for the prosecution can ask to give testimony and then asked to go on their way. He wants to change that. I think he is genuinely devoted to changing that. Thinking about his war crimes unit as being a pilot in in y that could then extend into his other areas of prosecution. Hes very keen to strengthen the ability to prosecute Sexual Violence and rape a number of experts that a been deployed for the atrocity crimes Advisor Group that have deep experience in this way to do trauma informed investigations and prosecutions. Whether or not we need a whole separate body, its interesting, id like to think about it a bit. I want to shed light on this, on these crimes because they are so underreported. Its important we acknowledge that they exist and we empower survivors to come forward and feel safe. Speaking about it. But i do know the prosecutor general and the International Criminal court is very focus on this and doing so in a way that is trauma informed and survivor centered. That certainly is appreciated, i know, but thats also the much depended on who the individual prosecutor is and what the makeup of the icc is thinking about at the time. One of the advantages to codifying this kind of that effort would be that it would make it a focus for the future. I i agree completely. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Senator coons. Chairman chairman coons, Ranking Member risch for leading this hearing and for your clearly shared passion about this. As you mention, chairman, earlier you and i and a Bipartisan Group of senators went to the hague, met with the prosecutor of the icc, and many other senior staff, had long conversations about it and then acted properly and effectively in a bipartisan way and amended the underlying statute. Under, i think it is a tsa for many years, the u. S. Department of defense and the u. S. Government has resisted cooperation come support engagement with the icc because of the concern about the potential for u. S. Service members to at some point be hold in front of the court. We acted to amend that statutory attempt stature specific in case of ukraine in reliance on the circumstances like many of my colleagues i am outraged at russias conduct in ukraine during this war. I believe theres been Something Like 8000 documented atrocities, crimes against humanity. You have gone through them. My colleagues have gone through them. And im grateful for all the different International Partners of the eu, the u. N. , and the icc but im struck by two quotes from earlier this hearing. You in response to line of questioning said its hard to imagine a standing on the sidelines. And you, mr. Chairman, said the Department Defense doesnt get to choose which laws it obeys. Help me understand what the challenge is here in getting our government to cooperate with the icc. You put it well. They have never faced a challenge like this. Russia can be counted on not just in the case of the brazilian student to infiltrate their systems, to attack witnesses, to underwrite their capacity to successfully prosecute. We have a wide range of important resources we can provide, intelligence, documentation, financial support, operational advice, partnerships in terms of protecting witnesses. Why would we not fully partner with the icc in this undertaking . Thank you. Weve had a longstanding objection to the icc proceedings against u. S. Personnel. Understandable. It guides my work the ultimate interaction interaction with the court i have that as my lodestar in essence. I think the fear is that if we in this matter assist with the prosecution that involves another nonparty stick of another state that is not ratified the icc treaty, that we would somehow erode our ability to protect our own servicemembers because we are also come we are similarly situated in the since were also nonparty states. The reality is that argument has no purchase before the icc. All elements of the court has shown that, they proceed against the nationals of nonparty states in the burma matter for example, in the georgia matter come in the ukraine matter, in the democratic republic of congo matter where we want was in the sights of one point. It has no protective power before the court. What has protective power i think its engagement Holding Trust relationships keeping lines of communication open. And not committing gross atrocities. And if there are credible allegations against u. S. Service members, having equitable process we can say we are handling this because our servicemembers deserve the full candidly of due process protections under the uniform code of military justice. I think we can help in this manner and also maintain the protections that we have. As i praise the a mimic of their surgical, carefully crafted and leave a in place that have remained untouched. To the other quick questions. The alien tort claims act which is 28 usc 1350 was for some time viewed as exactly the statute enabling prosecutions or actions, claims for crimes against humanity. That has been narrowed. Why not legislatively strengthened that . Why not use as the platform for action by congress . I think there is grounds to amend and brief visit passion is a very old statute. Among the oldest. The founding of our nation. As you much of the Supreme Court has narrowed it considerably with the doctrines of esther torricelli out of the. I could imagine some very discreet amendments to the alien tort statute that would open it back up to individuals of access to u. S. Courts being able to advance claims against individuals or entities pixel long as process protections is over personal jurisdiction. We also met with the prosecutor general. What else can we and she would be doing to strengthen ukraines ability to investigate come to document come to prosecute to hold accountable perpetrators of war crimes in ukraine . I think theres more the department of justice could do if that the resources to do so in terms of sick on think their expert personnel to work sidebyside with ukrainian prosecutors. Under the attorney general is very keen to do that. He and a prostitute have have developed a close relationship come very trust relationship and so while im working through Civil Society actors, or academic entities come through experts have been drawn from the world war crimes tribunal with expertise. I cant find that with the funding i have but our inl assets can help with the Department Justice so that would be another way we can continue to assist the prosecutor general in the momentous task he has a hidden. Thank you, ambassador. Thank you for your work in this area thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Senator young. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Welcome, ambassador. Good to be with you. Last month senator rosen and i introduced the ukraine human rights policy act. This would among other things establish a process for congress to nominate individuals for human rights sanctions through caatsa. Through this legislation its our hope and fervent belief we can enter the u. S. Has the authority to respond to the russian government atrocities and continued up all our commitment to stand with ukrainians and their fight for democracy as well as their own humanity. Can you describe our government current processes for selecting both on the ground perpetrators and senior officials for targeted sanctions for Human Rights Violations . And tell me to what extent the process is working or not working. Indeed. Thank you for that question. We have a sanctions coordinator within the United States state department which is very helpful working with treasury and commerce to coordinate the whole range of sanctions that do exist. I know we have deployed them very robustly in the russia context, than 7000 individuals have been subject to travel bans under 7031 cebit with a number of dozens of individuals have been subjected to individual sanctions. We have the wagner group of course also subject to sanctions. The key of course is to have designation packages. When you do know the individuals name that also often need to know some biometrics in order to tell banks around the world to freeze assets if they happen to them. Its not enough to say with a grainy photograph of some dude in bucha want to sanction. We need to have information. To the extent we can continue to collect information from all available sources, the ukraines every team to assist us in this regard. They want to see the sanctions authorities exercise to the maximum extent possible as well it also Civil Society actors who have unique source of information to my office is funding a number of these organizations that want to get into the sanction packages. So if this legislation were to pass in congress were in power to nominate individuals for human rights sanctions through caatsa, how would interaction between your office and the sanctions coordinator have to change . I dont know it would. Ive had to look at legislation. I have seen the draft text that im happy to take that back and give it a close read. We were quite quite close with a bit its their job so we are often more in a support role. If they come across things we think are appropriate in any situation which would know where the Sanction Authority we will help them. We often are also quite encouraging of them to make sure our sanctions peril justice prosecutions roundworm clean at the icc. If you have Sanction Authority we should be sanction and those who are being prosecute e icc. They have reasonable grounds. We are of assistance in that regard. We will follow up and if you have any technical feedback, welcome that. We would all agree people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity have to be held criminally accountable though it remains an open question is how this can best be accomplished or how do you assess the likely any sort of accountability for russias atrocities in ukraine . Is unlikely to be confined to those who are plucked off of the battlefield, or is there a way and we can ensure it is broader in scope as we look, god willing, to a day in which the conflict ceases . My hope is the various pathways to justice that exist will be ready, prepared to move forward the minute theres a target of opportunity. But you put your finger on the real challenge which is custody over the accused. There are individuals in ukraine custody and those cases have been able to proceed. They have the ability to proceed in absentia. We dont in our courts and many courts do, many courts dont tip and other National Rate legal framework. Those cases though in absentia are sometimes unsatisfying as you imagine if you want to see the defendant having to answer to those charges. This is a long game. Those of us and is worth. Just today the yugoslavia tribunal issued its final judgment decades after the war in the former yugoslavia and then likewise last week the final one of the few final rwandan was captured in south africa and theyll be brought to justice. We have to think about this in terms of generations, not in terms of the next year. My goal is to collect evidence can preserve that evidence can strengthen the systems so the foundation is laid for when we do get that individual who chooses to travel, who gets tossed out of russia, whatever the circumstances, fall into custody we are ready and decades can move forward. You just anticipate sort of my next rent a question because i wouldnt expect, we certainly cannot bank on russian government whoever constituted once violence has ceased to cooperate and its in their own cinderella nationals to us, a variety of carrots and sticks can be brought to bear. How should our bilateral diplomatic behaviors towards russia change and tell russia were to comply with International Criminal justice efforts . Yes. I mean, we are a hopeful for a political transformation within russia. The hope is russian people and others in leadership position recognize the terrible disaster that this has been for russia. Military but also in terms of their standing on the international stage. Theyre an international pariah. The assets are frozen around the world. They cant travel. Many of them will not be able to travel. You were hearing all sorts of limitations that a been placed upon russia and russian figures because of the terrible decision to invade ukraine. So we need to i think strengthen relationships as we try to do always with moderates come with reforms come with Us Democratic champions come with Civil Society actors a stand ready to try to build a a genuine Civil Society movement within russia. Theres only so much one can do while putin remains in power. Thank you. Senator van hollen. Thank you, mr. Chairman. They too, madam ambassador. Good afternoon. As you just said in response to senator young, and a think you got to the core of the issue, this is the long game but its essential that we send the message that we will pursue the long game and pursue the perpetrators of crimes against humanity, these of the crimes into which achieved justice. I think the example you give from u. S. Lobby is a good would come if that persistence. Because we can essentially make determinations and findings of war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide determinations but as you said, unless we can find a way to get essentially jurisdiction over the individual, were not able to follow through with the prosecution commits upright . Thats right. One of the Things Congress did recently was tied to provide more avenues for the administration to get jurisdiction over the individual including through extradition. My question is have you been able to use any of those additional tools with respect to prosecuting this war crimes . And do you have any plans in place to do so . Yes, thank you. I think the doj is better positioned answer that question. I am grateful to that and i am very grateful that congress recently has helped align our statute with those of her closest friends and allies in europe who a very robust prosecutorial authorities and the kind of constellation of overlapping statutes to do this work. This is of International Cooperation. These are transnational crimes. You may have what is located in one country, testifying a precedent in another country against an individual who is that it a third country who committed crimes in the fourth country. We need to be coordinator and extradition is a key tool. Are you working examples where we the Justice Department is seeking extradition where a third country is not agreeing . Im not. I can though if youll indulge me point out a look at the does exist in the penal code that i havent mentioned but in a doj care deeply about and that is the ability to seek the extradition of the perpetrator who torture a u. S. Citizen. Because we have whats called president jurisdiction that event need to be present in the United States for us to press charges against that person. We cant seek their extradition if theyre not present under crimes that require the present, yet the presence of person to press charges and you cant seek extradition unless the presence of theres a catch 22. Click here to do a very surgical amendment to 182342 allow for present in jurisdiction every new u. S. Citizens have been subjected to torture abroad, we could seek extradition of his individual and no doj would appreciate that. We look forward to working with you to close a loophole. That is a little tiny loophole that is and is burned. Its fix. So let me follow up, the chairman made the point which i agree with, which is that we pass legislation instructing all agencies of the u. S. Government to cooperate with the icc and provide evidence that would support their prosecution of war crimes. But the Defense Department is clearly dragging their feet. My question to you is what is the impact of that . In other words, what evidence might weve been able to supply to the icc that we have not supplied because dod has not been cooperative . We generally dont discuss the types of information that gets shared but it is safe to say there is a range of very actionable information that we been able to collect that might be very helpful to a justice process anywhere and we can share that with other entities. We can share that with the commission of inquiry for the win. We can share that with individual states it might be prosecuted. We can share that with the prosecutor general but not with the icc. Because of the position dod has taken . Because we dont have consensus yet on that. And the one agency that is not consent is dod, is that right. With you did to the secretary of defense at the Appropriations Committee just a yes or no. I dont think we are Defense Department is not cooperating in that way, right . Yes. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator king. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ambassador good to see you. I want to ask you about 2014. A lot of the focus has been on justice and accountability following the february 2022 invitation of ukraine by russia, and this was an invasion began in 2014. If you can talk about efforts to pursue accountability against russia for abuses in ukraine that began in 2014. Yes. We forget that, dont we . This word did begin in 2014. While it was not competency level of horror that you see today, there were crimes committed in and we dont even have access to some of those territories to full since we seem as bucha was mentioned, as he creates take back their territory you see the consequences of russia control and occupation very starkly. There are a number of efforts underfoot. The project i am funding we had begun to find before 2022. It was a much smaller project. We have had to skill that considered in the massive explosion of war crimes and other come atrocities being committed but already there was a project in place to is what the prosecutor general and exploring how to bring potential cases to the extent that custody over any individuals and of witnesses and evidence available to do that. The United Nations also had a longstanding Monitoring Mission focused on ukraine that has been collecting information from the beginning. That information is available and can be shared with prostitute authorities around the world. Talk to us about the challenges of dealing with abuses committed i either wagr group as an example of a a nonstate agency. So the icc is probably set up with a certain kind of defendant or target in mind, the wagner group is a nonstate actor. Talk about the challenges that presents. Theres no question that the wagner group is a maligned force, wherever it finds itself across the sahel and of the place, Central African republic. Now were seeing in libby and, of course, moved into ukraine. They are a nonstate actor but most of the crimes that are prosecutable either in our domestic system in of the courts domestic system and at the icc make no distinction between state actors and nonstate actors. They can be held responsible for any war crimes crimes against a or other depredations they might commit wherever they may find himself. I know the prosecutor of the icc is interesting look at wagner apart because their operative instrument of the other situation countries where he already has jurisdiction and is investigating. To the extent we can be of assistance in that regard that could help further isolate and utilize wagner around the world. I do like to change topics. I sometimes do this in a hearing. I take advantage of a great weight is not on the advertise topic but on your expertise and that is venezuela. While with you here i want to ask about it. In this hemisphere its estimated 70 70 people have d venezuela since 2015 rivaling the eight bank that a fled ukraine. I will beat arrearages in fifth fact human rights and that is when i direct the department and push for an extension of the Factfinding Mission to investigate gross violation of human rights in venezuela. That mission issued a detailed report last september assessing that the venezuelan maduro regime to the States Intelligence Services have committed crimes against humanity including torture, killing, Sexual Violence. The icc has indicated its intention to resume investigation. What is your assessment as you liaise with the icc about their ongoing efforts in venezuela and what lessons can we draw from the Factfinding Mission in venezuela about documenting crimes against civilians . Yes, thank you kind of this a been a longstanding interest of yours and the venezuelan people do deserve our full attention here. Ukraine is important but i take my title seriously id ambassador apart for global criminal justice as i do try and get out into the field edge of the situation countries and to continue to push for justice in there. The Factfinding Mission we supported that very strongly. They have done excellent work. Their reports are quite telling in terms of documenting the various kinds against humanity that it and committed across venezuela when it comes in as a protest is when it comes to members of the opposition. The course of the come tools than tools of justice and all that has been scrupulously documented. As you mentioned there is an icc investigation. The prosecutor has been there. He tried valiantly to work elaborately with the maduro government in order to encourage them to do their own investigations here and to show good faith in terms of rooting out the perpetrators of violence against protesters and others. I think hes reached the end of his rope and now has moved to be able to reopen that investigation at the move forward in a more adversarial context, posture. Is her a chance some of the other nations in the region that have resumed relations with the maduro government, columbia and brazil, could if he would be willing to do so could effectively pressure the maduro government to be more cooperative with the icc . I would hope so. That case exist because of an then unprecedented collective referral by the region to the icc. This was a region sing we want the International Court engaged in venezuela that we cant manage it ourselves. We cant manage it at a regional level. We need International Court in fall. I would hope they would follow up on that commitment to justice. And also continued to put pressure on the venezuelans to participate and cooperate with the work of the icc but also to do this work the hardware internally. I would hope that they would do the same thing especially since columbia is very much on the front line of consequences of the disaster in venezuela and they shouldnt be reticent to call it out and encourage the maduro government to cooperate with the icc. I was just in colombia. They are on the forefront of Transitional Justice with on system. I think they see the value of investing in the justice sector. Thank you. Let me thank thank your kaine for raising this issue. I share your concerns and interest in this regard. And i appreciate your pursuing it. Ambassador, let me just say, i presided over a lot of hearings. I have declared some of them some of the worst hearings ive ever presided over, and you were there . Please tell me there is a but here. This is what of the best hearings. I appreciate your clarity and your directness in terms of your answers to questions. Something that is refreshing that maybe you could hold a seminar at the state department about. Thank you. The record will remain open until the close of business on june 1, 20. 3. Please ensure questions for the record as the bed no later than tomorrow. With the thanks of the committee this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] since 1979 in partnership with the cable industry cspan has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress, from the house and senate floors, o congressional hearings, party briefings and committee meetings. Meetings. Cspan gives you a frontrow seat to out issues are debated and decided with no commentary, no interruption and completely unfiltered. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Cspan now as a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of whats happening in washington live and ondemand. Keep up with todays biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings on the u. S. The u. S. 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