Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing Focuses On Violent Extremism 20170615

C good morning. This hearing is called to order. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony and for taking the time, for your courage. The mission of this committee is pretty straightforward. To enhance the economic and National Security of america and to promote more efficient effective and accountable government. The Committee Really is in many respects to committees and one. We have Homeland Security and we have governmental affairs. This hearing is really focusing on the Homeland Security side of the Committee Structure and within that structure we have four priorities. Border security, Cyber Security infrastructure and countering extremism and violence in any form including islamist terrorism. What we try tried to do in this committee is through this hearing process layout a reality. I come from a manufacturing background. Salt a lot of problems. The only way to solve a problem is first admit you have one properly define it, properly describe it, gather the information and admit to the reality. There is no way anybody can deny we have a problem worldwide in terms of extremism and violence. We witness it just a few hours ago on a practice field for a Charity Baseball event. Let me acknowledge first of all our prayers are with those victims, congressman scalise, the staff member and the two members of the capitol Hill Security team that were worded and even having been wounded they continue to to return fire and prevented a far greater tragedy. The appreciation we owe to the men and women in Public Safety that every day they step out of the threshold of their door they literally put their lives on the line. They demonstrated it again this morning so i appreciate anybody who is willing to step up to the plate to defend our freedom, protect Public Safety but also stand up and tell the truth and describe reality in a world that is very dangerous in the world that does not want to hear the truth and reality. In previous hearings on the subject we talked about the way radical islam is terrorists are using social media particularly isis to become if incredibly effective at poisoning the minds of young people around the world to engage in these acts of terror and depravity. We are trying to understand what motivates this . What are they trying to accomplish . We have learned in america its been incredibly important throughout our history. We are a nation of immigrants. We welcome them. They have made this nation great but what has made this nation great is people who have come to this country who have come embracing the idea and promise of america, to become american, not projecting their past culture. We never asked that but we do ask them to come and accept the constitutional law to be able to take advantage of this wonder and marvel we call america and the american economy. We have certainly learned how important it is for us in government and other Public Safety officials to positively engages in communities, every community to make sure that people are welcome and they will assimilate. Its not perfect. It has been completely work. I think we probably could have done a better job as we witnessed recently whether its brussels or paris or places in europe or the assimilation has not been as effective but its far from perfect here in america and we will be talking about that. So again i just want to say again i appreciate the courage of our witnesses and their willingness to step up to the plate and just implore everyone to have an open mind. We need to understand the truth. We need to understand the reality if we have any hope of solving this problem. We have got to get to a point where people feel free and safe to go practice in the morning at a baseball field or walk a street or raise their family. Thats what we are trying to accomplish. Its not going to be easy but the only way we do it is if we are willing to have the courage to face these truths and have the courage to actually tell them so again thank you for having that courage and with that i will send it over to senator mccaskill and i would like to enter my statement into the record. I think all of us are waiting to exhale until we learn more details about our colleagues and our Staff Members and our police officers, but make no mistake about it what we saw this morning is evil and i hope that this hearing doesnt stray from the fact that we should be focusing on evil. We should be focusing on violence. We should be focusing on enforcing our criminal law against evil and violence. We should be focusing on those people who twist and distort any religion be it muslim or christianity or buddhism. Anyone who twists and distorts that religion to a place of evil is an exception to the rule. It is not the rule. We should not focus on religion and the freedoms our country embrace. Our country was founded on many important premises but perhaps paramount among those premises was the freedom of religion. The earliest americans aside from our native americans came here because they were fleeing from persecution based on their religion. Our freedoms like freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion define us as a nation and no evil should never be allowed to distort those premises. Ever. And im hoping although im worried honestly that this hearing will undermine that. I am concerned the president s Budget Proposal has taken its eye off the ball in terms of our fight against this evil extremism and the violence that it foments. Im worried that it has slashed homeland Counterterrorism Measures like the viper team that it provided an extra layer of security at our airports. It also calls for the complete elimination of the Law Enforcement Reimbursement Program which provides Financial Assistance to local Law Enforcement agencies to help secure our airports. It would reduce the Port Security Grant Program to transit Security Grant Program by more than 50 all soft targets for these evil criminals the urban Area Security Grant Initiative which helps prepare high density urban areas on how to respond will be cut by 150 million. The president s proposal would zero out complex coordinate it terror attack Grant Programs which are so essential. As we face violent evil criminals. While it is critical that we enhance our physical security and Law Enforcement with the resources they need to keep us safe we also have to improve our efforts to stop americans from being radicalized. Our danger at least to date has not been from those who try to slip into this country unnoticed or try to illegally cross our border who are seeking refuge and a humanitarian crisis. Thats not where the danger has come from. It has come from people who are americans or people who are legally in this country who have been radicalized. We face a variety of sources on radicalization including white supremacist, ecoterrorist isis ill qaeda. There is a long list. In the context of sunni and inspired violent extremism this hearing focused on the witnesses is happily vital and any effort our government takes to counter act extremism is done in partnership. In order to combat isis and other extremist propaganda we must have a healthy dialogue with muslim and other Community Leaders to ensure the resources are available to family and friends that may have concerns about loved ones. Unfortunately some of the rhetoric we hear including from some of the witnesses here today is that its in complete conflict with the american principles and values. Most importantly its actually making the United States of america laissez. We need to spend less time stirring up antimuslim rhetoric and more time working on these issues and working with the majority of muslims both in this country and around the world who are peaceful and lawabiding. We are lucky to have Michael Leiter testified with us today the former director of the National Counterterrorism administration or the bush administration. Is it leiter or leiter . Mr. Leiter understands the threat we are facing and has Extensive Knowledge and expertise crafting policies. Im eager to hear his analysis of the lessons we can learn from the recent attacks and uk and elsewhere. I would appreciate his thoughts on the present funding and a mentor student recommendations to bolster the nations safety and resilience without compromising our constitutional principles. We can do better to combat and prevent radicalism and extremism as long as Work Together under the umbrella of protection. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you senator mccaskill. It is the condition of this committee to swear in witnesses so if you all stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . Our first witness is ms. Ayaan hirsi ali. Ms. Ali was born in somalia in migrant from the netherlands to avoid a forced marriage preacher served on the parliament in 2004 with a short found submission critical of islams treatment of women. After the film was released the director of the film was assassinated. Ayaan hirsi ali is the author of several books. She currently is a Research Fellow from the institution that founded this Ayaan Hirsi Ali foundation. Ms. Ali. Chairman johnson, member mccaskill, Ranking Member mccaskill senators, ladies and gentlemen i join you both in condemning the violence this morning and i pushed the congressman a swift recovery. Thank you for this opportunity to talk to you about endangering our constitutions are freedoms and our way of life. Clearly not all muslims pose a threat but some do. How can we tell the difference . We can by understanding the nature of islam. Islam is part religion and part political military doctrine. It is a political doctrine consisting of a system of laws and a moral code that is totally incompatible with our constitution, our laws and our way of life. In 2017 there were two major governments that apply islamic law or sharia. Saudi arabia and i ran. As we sit here we are also fighting a rogue entity that goes by the name of the Islamic State of iraq and syria or isis. Isis implements sharia influenced extreme in its purest form to islamic law as practiced in these cases negates secular law and demand submission without question. Women are subordinate to men and are denied such basic rights as owning their own bodies and sexuality. They face discrimination in marriage, inheritance and custody. They must produce victims of rape must produce four witnesses and if they dont they are often stoned to death. Theres a Death Penalty for. There are no checks and balances and no free and impartial courts. There is no rule of law to defend the brutally suppressed. Not all muslims, not even those who live in the spirit proceeds support sharia. I call those who do medina muslims because they invoke hamed the founder of islam and medina. I believe that the vast majority of muslims accentuate the spiritual aspect of islam. I call the mac of muslims because they cite from mohammed and his legacy of mecca. The military at all of islam to call him the reformists. They are different from the mecca muslims because they stand up to the medina muslims by openly rejecting sharia. Most muslims live in secular states or states with some form of they are also millions of muslims today who live as considerable minorities. The medina muslims are not satisfied with the status quo. Their goal is to transform all muslim majority countries into islamic theocracy is and to use muslim immigrant minorities as a beachhead to transform nonmuslim societies, even free ones. They have a long time horizon and already have a foothold. Medina muslims use a combination of force or jihad along with the dissemination of their ideology through a mechanism known as doha. In theory doha is consistent proselytizing. Its a process of radical indoctrination. Doha advocates use the cover of missionary efforts education and cultural activities. They target the individual families the Education System the workspace the broader Economic Society as a whole. Its totalitarian like communism and fascism because different. This quest by the medina muslims to establish sharia across the globe by all means has led to weak and failed states to civil wars and the exodus of people from their homes and free society to the breakdown of social cohesion. We must solve not only the violent entities like isis ill qaeda boko haram and others but also dismantle the network up dawa. Above all we need to challenge the principles of sharia law. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Thank you ms. Ali prepare next witness is ms. Noz run the bonnie. Ms. Novotny is the cofounder of Muslim Reform Movement the author of standing alone American Woman and the struggle for islam. She rents a student faculty investigation into the murder of her friend danny pearl who was executed by members of al qaeda. Thank you so much. Thank you chairman johnson and vice chairman cass colin thank you senators for this invitation to be here today. Our hearts are indeed gripped with war from this morning shooting. I feel empathy and compassion for you because this day takes me back to a day 15 years ago when i felt the same grouping on my heart. I learned that day that my colleague and friend daniel pearl from the wall street journal had been kidnapped. We learned in the weeks that followed that he had been kidnapped by militants and it was 15 years ago almost to this day that we learned that he was buried in a plot outside of karachi, his body cut into pieces by the men who believed that their interpretation justified this brutal murder. I sit before you because on that day i developed a passion that i would expect you all would also feel committed to after you learn the intentions and motivations of the shooter this morning. I lost a friend. On that day i made it my duty as a muslim to stand up against the ideology of extremist islam that motivated the men that took my friend from this earth. There was one value that connected the 27 men that were involved in dannys kidnapping and murder and that was that they had all absorbed the dua are the evangelism of an ideological interpretation of islam that is of the nature that ion is speaking about. I want is to be really clear. This is not the islam that my parents taught me. The led me this morning to stand shouldertoshoulder with my father and open my hands and pray for peace of mind for everyone in this world. What senator mccaskill talks about is really important. We must make this distinction and i think at the same time that means that we are clear that senator johnson is talking about related to the enemy that we face. The ideology of islamism or political islam contradicts the Constitutional Values of this country. The elements of islamism for political islam are very clear. It demands that we have political government according to the laws of sharia or islamic law. Those standards are in complete contradiction with the laws of our country. I want to tell you from the trenches that this is a reality that we face in our country. In Northern California facebook promotes the page of an organization whose meeting i attended in Northern Virginia last summer. Behind the speaker was a flag for the Islamic State. In michigan a man is preaching to advocate for child marriages in the name of islam. In Northern Virginia and imam just preached that it is okay to cut the of girls because it leads to the ability to keep hypersexuality from expressing itself in the world. What is it that we must do . We must be clear as chairman johnson was saying, we must have moral courage and intellectual courage. We must absolutely separate the reference you do not try this islamism from those who do and in that way the objective that we have to protect muslims and to be able to differentiate extremism from the large swaths that my family and others practice will be realized. We will protect muslims if we take the strategy of marginalizing the extremists. We as a nation must be committed to shut down the ideology of islamism just as we defeated fascism just with swede defeated communism. The ideology of islam is some denies us the right as men and women to sit in a room together as we are sitting today. Its a nice girls a right to go to a concert and calls them dangerous women. Denies a woman like myself are right to sit in a bakery in daca bangladesh without being separated and then killed. We have to understand that the future of our world depends on our Clear Thinking and our wisdom. I came here with fear in my heart because we also face a network that i call the on her brigade at once to stop this conversation. Ayaan and i are under threat constantly put between us and the haunted Death Threats we facebook we said before you with our backs to our friends and our enemies because it is our duty. It is our duty to stand up for them and for humanity in which we believe. When i had dinner last night my mother was beside me she took my hand and she said, do this for humanity. I urge all of you to remain committed, remain committed to all the values in which we believe and freedom and the beauty of this world that we want to see in the next generation inherit. Thank you so much. Thank you ms. Nomani. Our next dr. Lankowski is the founder president of the institute of world politics. He served at the state department from 1981 to 1983 and then with the National Security council from 1983 to 1987 review is director of european and soviet affairs and president reagans soviet affairs adviser. Good morning mr. Chairman and ranking minority member and members of the committee. Im honored to have the chance to discuss. We have spent trillions in this country fighting islamist terrorism as if it is a military problem. This is like trying to eradicate mosquitoes by inviting your friends for a garden party arming them with shot guns and mosquitoes all afternoon. You will get a few. The problem is the garden has a puddle which is spawning new mosquitoes, not just terrorists but jihadists dedicated to establishing a totalitarian caliphate worldwide. This is not a military problem. It is a political propaganda ideological cultural and religious doctrine problem. To solve it necessitates fighting a war of ideas and the problem is we have virtually no ideological warriors in this war. We have a precedent in the cold war. Eliminating the sources of cold war tensions requires changing the marxistleninist core of the soviet system. We conducted an ideological war methodically for some four decades. This consisted of the use of the truth to counter soviet propaganda, undermining the ideology is the basis of soviet legitimacy and after monetizing the humanity of communist rule offering the peoples of the soviet empire positive empire Freedom Democracy and hope for a better life and supporting Resistance Forces within the empire. Victory entails the collapse of the communist party and the entire soviet system. A key indicator of that victory was the concession by one of the chief party ideologist that the ideology and the system it produced were evil. We must also fight jihad is some by targeting its ideological core. Je jadism differs from politically moderate islam insofar is that it seeks to expedite ordinary missionary activity by conduct in jihad of the sword and resettlement jihad migration to nonmuslim laws establishing separate and enclaves are run according to sharia and culminating in political demographic conquest. Modern totalitarian islamism which incorporates marxistleninist political strategy forms the basis of the recruitment of new jihadists both terrorists and resettlement jihadists. It depends on generating hatred against the infidel principally through a moral attack against colonialism, zionism and u. S. Hegemony and against the west moral degradation. If fighting this ideology requires an ideological counterattack based on superior moral precepts. Above all this requires telling the truth and ending selfcensorship about radical islamism and an Information Campaign exposing the ideology, exposing jihadists strategy, sharia and the crimes of the radical islamist regimes. In requires an attack on the ideology and its meticulous and by jihadists and i can discuss later on a number of different elements of what that would look like. Finally it requires offering a positive alternative including an appeal to conscience and the promotion of human rights. Regrettably our government is intellectually and organizationally unprepared to do all this. We no longer have centers in our government that promotes excellence Strategic Influence in ideological warfare so we should resurrect a new version of the u. S. Information agency. I will would call it the u. S. Public diplomacy agency located within the state department. Should contain all the offices addressing people for Public Opinion including Human Rights Bureau a strengthened version of the current global link agent center the counter jihadist propaganda in office of foreign Opinion Research bureau of Education Culture and ideas with a special office of ideological and religious affairs, the voice of america which should be transferred to this agency from the bbg and an office for the counterintelligence protection of u. S. Public diplomacy programs. The cia must resurrect serious covert political influence capabilities including the funding and browning of all forms of media and the ability to support voices of politically moderate islam in their efforts to discredit jihad is some. The Defense Department needs to strengthen its military Information Support operations and the department of Homeland Security, the state department fbi and local Law Enforcement need to significantly improve capabilities to distinguish between ordinary muslims who want their religion to be a religion and not aired radical secular ideological program to distinguish those people from jihadists and when it comes to whom to admit to the United States were with him to cooperate in the struggle against jihadist him. Thank you. Thank you professor or doctor. Our final witness is mr. Michael leiter. Mr. Leiter served as the director of the National Counterterrorism center from 2007 to 2011 for president george w. Bush and president obama. Chairman johnson making over mccaskill and members of Committee Thanks for having me and i would simply have my thoughts and prayers to those who were injured and the families affected this morning. Before directly addressing todays topic i do want to offer to quit bulletin points. First im not going to address all forms of terrorism because thats not what the committee asked for. Dont want that to be read as sunni inspired tears missingites threat we face. Some of the solutions to address in the inspired terrorism it is often the same. The second caveat is although im going to focus on the ideological aspects of the struggle i am extremely supportive of what is a balanced approach to terrorism. From my perspective that includes overseas kinetic actions to take people off the battlefield intelligence partnerships with our close allies aggressive Law Enforcement and an ideological component. If we just do one of those we have pretty much guaranteed ourselves a failure in the larger battle. Countering violent extremism which i refer to as edr those noncoercive preventative activities that aim to reduce radicalization and ultimately recruit to violence. These are inherently broad activities including all parts of the Committee Community rehabilitation and in my view any of these activities must be based on a very rigorous and as you said mr. Chairman is factual and truthful analysis of radicalization and thankfully i mike in 2001 this is something which in my view is widely available within the u. S. Intelligence community from credible partners overseas and academic institutions. When implemented properly theres no doubt in my mind thats programs reduce radicalism and violence and we shouldnt be surprised that. It works in antidrug activity and antigang activity and it can work in this context as well studies from Duke University massachusetts the netherlands kenya germany buk all back this up. In my view and i take significant blame for this having been the director of the National Counterterrorism center under president bush and obama, since 9 11 the u. S. Programs have been of marginal effectiveness and im happy and i hope we have more agreement. I agree with much of what was said about the poor resourcing and lack of focus on these programs internationally and nationally for these programs. Again i think we have some very good programs. I would highlight the office of Community Partnership that dhs. They are good people doing good work but we have not resource these programs and ends on a strategic away. Let me give a small example of this inadequacy and i would compare it to the drug problem. The 2016 federal Drug Demand Reduction Program received 15 billion. 1. 5 billion of that was prevention. The elements of dhs office of Community Partnerships had 10 million in grant money so we think this is a serious problem we need a serious solution. Right now we do not have that. In designing cd programs we have to be very careful not to alienate the very same communities of which we rely for the ideology of sunni violent extremism is part of the problem and it must be addressed and consistent with the first amendment. At the same time we must not and i cant stress this enough conflate a violent ideology with mainstream muslim beliefs. To do so is not only factually wrong but equally counterproductive and it will feed directly into extremist narrative 100 and it directly undercuts the most forceful message we have. In this regard i think it is deeply mistaken and harmful to equate poor islamic concepts that are not inherently violent extremist interpretations of these principles. For example muslim tradition of dua are proselytization which is not the summer to christian is not equivalent with the islamists violent interpretation. Similarly muslims honoring sharia is not inherently intentioned of constitutional democracies any more than would be for christians who are who honor their religious traditions while still complying with civil authority. What would a successful Counterterrorism Program with a verb bust cde Program Look Like . Act aggressively overseas disrupting physical and as you mentioned cyber safe havens. Second federal Law Enforcement must work with local officials to share the heavy burdens of investigation and in doing so those officials must understand islam so they may distinguish between peaceful adherents and violent extremists. Defensive measures must take waste we must have a robust cde strategy for a country of almost 300 million that includes Education Programs for state and local officials on islam done in conjunction with local laws engagement with muslim organizations recognizing every religion we have in the United States with these muslim communities. Fostering gauge meant with the Technology Community and muslim organizations to enable effective in jail ideological engagement where the u. S. Government cannot and should not miss. Diversion programs model and antigang and antidrug programs to channel youth away from extremism and violence. Representing all elements of the u. S. And local governments to ensure leadership is far beyond Law Enforcement officials and just like in manufacturing we develop metrics to make sure where we will put our money they are dollars well spent. There are a number of programs that Ranking Member mccaskill said that i think are at risk domestically and overseas with the president s budget and i look forward to answering those prevailed forward to working with this committee on this and other issues which face us on violent extremism of all stripes. Thank you mr. Leiter. I did want to my Opening Statement to have you stay with me. Wanted to quote the full into the record. This was written in 1945 but unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance that if we extend unlimited tolerance to even those who were intolerant if we are not to prepared for the onslaught of the intolerant than the tolerant wheat destroyed and the intolerance with them. Mr. Leiter your testimony is that if we think there is a serious problem we need a serious solution and thats the point of this hearing. A think this is a serious problem click the recycle this hearing by the way was a wall street journal article written by ms. Ali striving describing dua. You describe dua and it could be. You are trying to promote evangelize their religion but what are you evangelizing about . Are you evangelizing the moderate, the nonviolent form or are you evangelizing the islamist terrorist form . Do you deny the reality that there are elements, that there are potentially terrible organizations raising money and funneling those dollars into potentially Islamic Terrorist Groups . Mr. Chairman i spent four and half years of my life working for democratic and republican person trying to keep the American People safe from violent islamic extremism. Any suggestion even in your question i somehow would deny that i think. Okay, great. I honestly wasnt trying to challenge you. Mr. Chairman there are undoubtedly organizations to wrap themselves in the cloth of religion who are pursuing violent things and we have to stop that. We have to see through that and i think one of the greatest challenges is educating u. S. Government officials and other officials to make that distinction, to draw that distinction between those organizations which are pursuing legitimate charitable means in the name of any religion versus those that are pursuing illegal and dangerous violence. Spinach with who it i was not trying to challenge you. I truly respect what you have done in the testimony of a right to this committee in the past. I think what im hearing is not disagreement here although it might be set up. Is there anything you heard in testimony from our toothy no witnesses that you disagree with sydney first of all i want to say for much of their work that i respect and rather than try to give an overview or characterized all of their statements, the things that the witnesses have written some of which i disagree. I would largely agree with i dont agree with this view small things. Contrary to the good doctor i dont that there has been at least in my experience significant self censorship within the u. S. Government talking about this. In fact i tripled the resources of the National Counterterrorism center to study the ideological aspects so we could train state and local officials on islam. There is no issue about this. We knew there were ideological drivers of this and we had to understand and to start the program to go out and train committed to groups on understanding it. Restart a program that helps train Muslim Communitys understanding was available to their sons and daughters that might be radicalizing material on the internet. We did not at all ignore it. A do agree with the doctor as i said. U. S. Government policy and budgetary priorities are not falling into line with that but i do not think that was political censorship and trying to bury your head in the sand about what the recent problem is. Ms. Nomani can you respond . Ive been waiting for this hearing for 15 years because we have been unable to have a conversation about ideology and terrorism when it comes to islam. I remember a moment when i went several years ago and there was a meeting of Public Diplomacy officials and it was to talk about what strategies we can put into place and i said to her very simply about the ideology. Its about the ideology that you know very well. It is put out into the world by government like iran, qatar, saudi arabia and their proxies like Muslim Brotherhood but i was told at that meeting that we cant have this conversation about ideology. Our freedom of religion will not allow us to have that conversation in a public space by what i push back on and what im so happy to see us discuss today is the fact that the ideology that is the problem is one that violates u. S. Constitutional law. It is one that wants to see the overthrow of this democracy and wants to see us as women put into separate and segregated spaces with rights that are not equal to men. This is the reality. I have with me a book that i bought at the medina market in herndon virginia just off of route 7 called Wahhabi Court because off of route 7 are mosques and think tanks, the bookstore subpoenas this ideology out to our community. In this book of law, islamic law, the sharia here on the anniversary of the attack it tells us that should be killed. It tells us the reason why we should wage jihad in america and the rest of the world. This is not the islam that my parents taught me that this is a reality. Im so happy that we are finally confronting this ideological problem. Ms. Ali would you like to respond . Yes. I think its not so much a question of disagreement but maybe its a question of perspective. I think what i would like to do is start with where we agree. All of us here on the panel and i hope all of you and where we all agree that muslims are not anonymous with terrorism or misogyny or any of that. I would like to start by making this distinction between islam as a set of, as a doctrine, as a tradition, as a civilization on the one hand and a human being as a muslim. If you take islam and you study and there are likely books and studies on islam and what it boils down to is that islam is spiritual and it has a very rich history of spirituality but it also has a military political component. There are some muslims who accentuate spiritual and religious like the way your parents raised you to tell you that the way they see the spiritual component of their religion is peaceful and they wish no one else any harm. If they engage in evangelization or engage in dua that dua is about spreading goodness and wellness but there are other groups and that is why we are having this conversation. What we are dealing with is the other groups that are taken out of the civilizational context of islam and accentuating the political and the military. Both groups invoke the prophet mohammad who is the founder and invoke the koran and the question is does the prophet mohammad support the medina and muslim or does he support those who accentuate spirituality . He does both. When he founded the religion and mecca it was all about religion and spirituality. After immigration its about military. He has militias and he wages war. He develops a new law and these men in the 21st century who are organizing themselves as nongovernmental organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood is one entity or another theocracy like iran, they invoke the prophet mohammads legacy and medina so that i is why i think its extremely important that we make this distinction. We have problems with those muslims and only those muslims who accentuate the political and military doctrine of islam. We have been focusing a great deal, as we should and i agree, as we have been focusing on those who use violence and use jihad and terrorism. We havent paid as much attention to what you call mr. Lenczowski the breeding places. Those people who get into the hearts and minds of Vulnerable People and turned them toward the idea that its okay to harm people, that its okay to kill and its okay to kill apostates. Its a worldview of a society thats based on a seventh century law. To begin with we should have that classification and i came and i accepted gravitation to talk about only that group and not to vilify or stigmatize those muslims who accentuate that spirituality. I appreciate that and i appreciate what we agree on and what is the truth and what is reality. Trying to find out where are the areas of agreement and what we dont disagree on so we can figure out what is reality because the only way we will try to stress what you up worked tirelessly to prevent is his reality. Senator mccaskill. I think we all agree extreme ideology is used as a recruitment for extreme ideology and we must focus on it and we must fight it. We have to do that within our constitutional parameters. We cant ban a book. Its repugnant as the book is we cant ban it in the United States of america. Not how we roll and we have to fight it with the appropriate tools of our government and civil laws. As we fight it i think the facts really matter. Its important he remain factual doctors lenczowski in your prepared testimony you discuss your. Zones and muslim enclaves. Mr. Leiter you have broad experience working with their International Allies and partners and i know you travel extensively and works arm in arm with both your counterparts in these European Countries and the police in these European Countries produce that factual . Are there. Zones . In my experience in denmark, brussels, the United Kingdom, germany and france as we work with Law Enforcement officials i never saw anything remotely resembling a. Zone. In the written testimony and by the way dr. Ali can i would love to see the citation. Its a 140 cases against the one you cite specifically . I believe mr. Leiter your former u. S. Attorney say specifically a man was acquitted for severely raping his wife on the ground she was muslim and therefore subject to sharia law. I dont believe that is true. I believe is patently false. Mr. Leiter are you familiar with that case . Imni case arose, an individual is seeking a restraining order against a husband for sexual abuse and the new jersey state trial court recused to find criminal intent based on the husbands belief that the sharia marriage contract would not have allowed him to do what he did in the first round of appeals in the next level of court, i was also a clerk for the Supreme Court for Justice Breyer and i believe it would be what was called proverbially a smackdown saying that the trial court deeply misunderstood u. S. Constitutional law and new jersey law and that there was no way in which this husband would be permitted under any interpretation of u. S. Law to go forward. In the case you cited in the missouri doctors lenczowski i talked another prosecutor in that case. This was a case where a Family Member abused a child over what they were wearing. It was a head covering but it could have been a short skirt. Could have been a bare midriff. A Family Member pulled this child out of the school and physically assaulted the child and was arrested on a felony of child abuse. I fail to see how that is an encroachment and the case is still by the way. Im not completely familiar with that case but i didnt write about it. I acknowledged by the way senator that particular case in new jersey was reversed on appeal but the fact that it had gone this far. C facts matter sir. He was never acquitted of anything. Perhaps i used the wrong language there. Language matters. I understand that the judge made a judgment based on sharia that it should never have gotten as far as it did. I can tell you that having done domestic islands cases for many years and having thought and it legislature believe it or not in this country, me as a state legislator i sought to make sure that man could not rape their wives in missouri. That law was overturned in 1995. Up until 1995 men could rape their wife in a state where i lived. So i mean i think that this notion, mr. Leiter deeply that sharia law is slowly becoming the law of the land in this country . I think it is deeply mistaken the factual belief that sharia is making any inroads. Religious laws can be the basis for contracts between people if they choose to but ultimately the u. S. Court system has a very very welldeveloped judicial theory of when those religious agreements and religious contracts between individuals can or cannot be honored in federal courts that is wellestablished and i see no signs, no credible signs in sharia law for even the most minute risk to the u. S. Constitutional principles in u. S. Law. Mr. Leiter could you briefly address the issue as it relates to the president s budget and what that will do on the efforts in this country as we try to do exactly what this witnesses want us to do that is to combat this ideology recruiting people to violence. Talk about what we can do, what they can actually do to counter this important problem. Senator left me start by making this bipartisan in my criticism as i can. Democrats and republicans before this president if else felt adequately resourced these issues so its not just the presence budget on this one. I do believe in terms of what the main threats are we facing today largely Technology Internet radicalization all love london and paris and the like the presence budget does real violence with some of us especially for this community. Potential cuts in funding to the coast guard for Port Security or rail transit, these are real issues. These are places that need to be defended. They have not been adequately defended and they must be. The state department and usaid which are critical to the programs that we have that the doctor noted. We have to regard those as the secretary has eloquently said it just means he has to buy more bullets and you cannot buy enough bullets. So the problem is deeply problematic. They were injured following this mornings horrific shooting and i want to thank the men and women for the service they provide. They are willing to risk their life for the mission of keeping us safe. Im grateful to all of them and First Responders today. With that said, i want to turn to broaden the discussion a little bit with you about the issue of the homegrown extremism and terrorism. In your view how can the department worked to protect americans from being radicaliz radicalized, whatever their ideologies. Are we going to have to build partnerships, and again youve addressed some of the issue is about resources, but what kind of resources do we need to be able to do that . No bigger a softy and all Donald Rumsfeld noted that. There is a different situation but with the same challenge. Arresting those that have already gone beyond a certain level of extremism towards violence is a critical part of that. But the best way we will be a defined and reduce the number of people were arrested are those deep partnerships. The fbi is good at that and has a global and National Presence that is probably unmatched but the department of Homeland Security has a key role because they are not all in Law Enforcement and partnerships cannot just come from people with badges and guns, so from my perspective the department of Homeland Security can play several roles. They are responsible for the infrastructure whether it is oil and gas pipelines, ports. Second, they have to be on the frontlines of that engagement, and it isnt just people Walking Around saying i am here to help, it is engaging and also building those relationships looking over at senator harris because so many of these companies are in the valley but the relationships between the government and the ngos and technology because there are things that the u. S. Government cannot say as a matter of constitutional law and doesnt have credibility anyway and they can play a key role in those partnerships. They have to remain at the center of the sharing information and sharing investigative leads with state and local Law Enforcement so we never had a situation like boston where something flows beyond the fbi that the Boston Police Department Might choose to pursue it. When they do that they have to make sure they understand that the constitutional limitations and again understand the ideological aspects so they can make the same difficult distinctions of times. I will deal with the remainder of my time. Senator harris. I expressed my prayers and best wishes for our colleagues and the folks that were attacked this morning and also thanks to the First Responders and Capitol Police who are so incredibly courageous and are sacrificing so much to protect other people. This morning the senator and i were at a prayer breakfast. Only senators in the room to share our faith not only in the god we worship, but in each other. And it was poignant this morning and there was actually a presentation by senator cassidy, our colleague from across the aisle from louisiana. What i took away from what he shared this morning was something i think we all agree on which is there are certain universal truths. There are certain things that in spite of what may appear to be differences between men and women and most of the things that we share that bind us that we have in common, we have so much more in common and its important for the leaders to emphasize those things that we share in common and unify us understanding that they are just universal truths. So, with that spirit, and i have several questions but i would like to talk with you in particular about the thoughts that youve touched on this morning about what can be done to improve the situation where the work needs to be done. So if we can talk about it in the context of the dhs budget. They are deeply experienced in the government and understand islam. I have to tell you that its very hard to find in the u. S. Government. The number of senior officials who understand islam is painfully low, so thats the first thing. The u. S. Government tends to lack credibility speaking about any sort of religion but especially islam. The third piece i would say is they are innovative and focusing on areas which are non traditional counterterrorism drivers. Who normally does, terrorism, border people. They have focused more on educational institutions and worked on something called the peertopeer program which partners with educational institutions. Its in a variety of organizations. I think what we have generally seen in places like the United Kingdom and the netherlands, they tended to work the best when they have a little bit of arms length from the attorney generals of the world. The Rapid Response team that shows up for the transit programs when there is a threat so thereve been roughly 31 teams around the country i will tell you that when we solve the threats in the United States and we have Something Like the attack in london, then they would show up around the stations. It was equally important and many of these interagency programs for training for an attack i would love to stop every attack that we are not going to be up to stop every attack. Theyve included hospitals in the area, telecommunications providers, muslim organizations, so you can both respond and save the people that are injured and to start engaging in the community. That was effective in orlando and boston and cutting the fun with the tragic. We would fully fund those programs in the effort to combat terrorism in our country. The programs in light of the threat we face are only more important than they have been. Can you unpack a little bit for me the possibility for collaboration with Silicon Valley and the Technology Industry . And i will carry that back. I spent three years working in Silicon Valley as well. So, i have no economic interest in this. But when we started doing in 2009, 2010, 2011 was this idea of the government cannot speak authoritatively on this, but there were many muslim ngos who wanted to understand how they could stop the radicalization and stop the violent forces but they didnt know how to get the message out and it turned out that people like him are all lucky were vastly better at using this and its bringing together countries like google and the like. How do you optimize. In 2009 and 2011 when i left and today we are in an even more problematic posture. And i say that for at least two reasons. The threats because the therapist use of the internet has become vastly more effecti effective. Its higher than it was in 2010 and 2011. Its critical and the Prime Minister raised these issues but fundamentally it is the issues of the contacts online taking it down into using the algorithms to give it more automatically. It would increasingly prohibit more lawenforcement officials not just working on terrorism for the communication and the way they have become. Freedom of religion and the freedom of speech which we all value, but we do in those righ rights. Where is that line back thank you mr. Chairman. Again, we are so grateful we have to Capitol Policemen right near us today and we are so grateful for everything you do not only defending us personally, but the institution of the government and after an attack like today, we understand and bring forth the sharp focus of gratitude so i want to thank those that are present today but also see my hearts and prayers go out to all of those that are wounded and injured. We are building the relationships and i dont think that anyone would disagree we know the formula. You need to understand your experience between 2007 and then coming out of it in 2011. The thread is significantly more challenging i think then i saw between 2007 and 2011 with possibly one exception. Its in a way that we dont face in the same manner today. We were worried about planes blowing up over the atlantic. Thats the good news. The bad news is the scale of the radicalization is occurring at the pace that the independents with which it is occurring so you dont necessarily see the same communications in the domestic elements and International Elements that are so important for us detecting them in all those ways. Lets pat ourselves on the back just a little bit. Weve generally been pretty effective at disrupting attacks before they occur and compared to most of our western allies, weve been successful at reducing the rates in the United States. If you look at radicalization in the United Kingdom per capita they have a larger problem than we do. The same in belgium and the netherlands and france. And i think we have largely been met for four reasons. One, the community is more integrated into muslim communities are. The muslim communities are better off economically. The muslim traditions tend to come from the moderate strains and extreme strains than those that are central and our muslims when they come to america and this is a generalization, but theyve tended to focus on being americans and not overseas fights as opposed to many in the south Asian Community and the uk and the like. Overall we have done a pretty good job, because we are americans, not because we have the programs to stop it and reducing that. So thereby, we have a lot to learn still from the uk prevent program. Its deeply problematic in some ways, but its much more aggressive ways and very important. Theyve thought about this and have a number of social programs. Im hesitant to look very far at the de Radicalization Program because they have generally been in the states where they have constitutional protections that we do not have. Its not to say that they havent been good. But we cannot implement programs that way. So whats community and city the example of minneapolisst. Paul and the community has been absent. They faced a crisis in the Second Generation going to fight in a nationalistic war and the federal and state community in part led by the u. S. Attorney and the mayor in minneapolis did an outstanding job. I think some of the work that has been implemented and pulled into the radicalization has been quite good. One example in new york added to the list of sports and that is a good example and a way of making sure the communities that come from the traditions are now separated from the government didnt feel like they are partners. Its the need to better understand. We have done a lot of work over the last really since the 90s on the concept is called Community Policing. It became the model of the surge mentality as we are looking at not fighting the nationstates as much as the road groups. I think it is interesting to think about the Community Policing and those dynamics. On the ground with real resources and training to address the concerns that he would have been the aggregate important Critical Role in to her bosom and so i am deeply concerned to the cuts of the antiterrorism program. State and local police and medical, fire, all these people have to understand it and if they are not funded they will not recognize it and they will end up with violence after the fact. It is not as a general matter occurring in mosques. It is not occurring in public spaces but for individuals. When you look at what weve been able to do in child pornography which has been an incredible model that we could adopt in this fight, you know, the child pornography work that is being done by the department of justice i think is a great model for the work that can be done in terms of images and messages that could be shared broadly. Hailed as a Success Story i would note there have been bipartisan in the past as recently as 2015 coming out of the Senate Committee on intelligence and requiring a similar approach. Its when they would have to tackle. Thank you mr. Chairman and first i i would like to send my thoughts and prayers as well. I would think the Capitol Police for what you do each and every day. Todays topic is very important and i appreciate the testimony that debased the level of the Witnesses Today and the tragedy that certainly underscores the threat posed by violent extremism. Reading through some of the testimony i became concerned about the reoccurring theme of the antiislamic sentiment and certainly they are honorably in the military and Law Enforcement agencies in the Intelligence Community and they are an important part of the social fabric in our state. Capitulation of the attitude i believe undermines the collective values and contributes to the undercurrent of the xenophobia that is being levied at some of americas ethnic and religious minorities. They are at war with islam which we are not. Rather than lending legitimacy to the prejudiced view of islam we should endeavor to account for all types of extremism that leads to violence regardless of who may inspire it. As a nation we should seek factbased solutions that enable us to address the threats in an adapted and integrated matter. This question relates to the online radicalization. It warrants removal with protected speech. Its rather than sweeping legislative changes. They leverage the internet to disseminate the content. Often branded with its flag and logo it is really designed to support the objectives of a foreign terrorist organization. If you could make only one recommendation to the committee, what would that be in terms of your approach to confront the issue of the isys propaganda on some of the popular social networking sites . We are talking about the government in the muslim communities. That is critical. There is a lack of trust and cooperation between Many Technology communities in the government, and that is very problematic. And i very much understand companies are doing what they are designed to do protecting the shareholder value. But wwe are now in a place where companies have done a lot over the past two years to increase cooperation. But it was starting a pretty low point because of the leak and that alienation. We have to get back to the point that there is a cooperative relationship with his easily identifiable with Political Violence of any sort, the rabidly reported to the u. S. Government. That isnt what happens today. It is often removed and is rarely reported in the government simply doesnt have the means to monitor the internet. The general counsel at facebook, these are really thoughtful people who want to be of assistance and we have to figure out how they can be protected. The privacy and liberties of the people using these tools are protected but you still have a rapid methodology for reporting the instances like you suggest to Law Enforcement officials so they can start to find some of those needles in a massive haystack. You mentioned the company as to what degree is the threat of online radicalization going to require international approach to what you just mentioned. In my view the first thing we should do is try to drive this through the u. S. And our companies. Otherwise we will end up with International Pressure on our companies which will not be in the same vein as our normal constitutional protections and they may find them even more uncomfortable, so i do think that it is inevitable that they will begin to see increased pressure from the uk, germany, france and belgium at least in some of these issues. I do not think they can withstand that pressure over time is very needed to play a role in terms of defining what actually constitutes the private companies that are able to uniformly develop new terms of service and potentially identify violations . Skank only when you have that definition it is a little bit easier it would be in this context. Once you have that you have that mechanism people still believe protects privacy and civil liberties. I dont think we can live with the frankfurter, we have to give some rough boundaries even if it is in capturing 100 of the material if it captures a big enough percentage that will still be up meaning the assistance. Thank you for your comments. I do want to comment i read the testimony and i sold it comments but i didnt see antiislamic. It is bending over backwards to make that distinction and hopefully we can all agree that we are against Islamic Service on that insight and kills and cares. I appreciate your expertise. I will start with doctor. Thank you senator. We havent talked about the fact of the force behind a radical jihad is some as a moral attack on the United States. This has to be done in the National Leaders that are the representatives of the people at the highest levels. One of the most effective things that is being done right now in the online war is done by a Small Organization called the good of all. Its dedicated to fighting against radical jihad and a prevention operation by the declaration of human rights. As an alternative set of ideas and has an idea virus that can capture the imagination of the new generation of socalled Digital Natives and social media and the like. Its up to fire in different parts of the world and many of the hits in egypt on the work of this organization. It is not targeted but this was a natural course. Senator peters mentioned earlier that we are not at war with islam. It is in fact the west is at war with islam and sound arguments have to be made that this is not the case opposing a certain kind of radical and political ideology. Im also concerned much of the conversation is focused on the question of terrorism. Its basically a totalitarian theocratic form of government. In the American Society that it hasociety that ithas in other pd if you look at europe they have plenty of enclaves that establish parallel structures and there are cases in which the u. S. Courts come to family law in muslim man may marry an American Woman, they will have children and the man can then make his proper declaration and then the sharia family law has triumphed in cases like this one where the husband can take the children off to saudi arabia will never see their children again. I am not an expert on the particular stuff that ive read enough about it to know that such things exist in the powerful track for the sharia law established a good foothold in a number of European Countries. We have to be making it very clear insofar as those that want to establish a political order in this country that is at variance with the constitutional freedoms. It would be under the shroud of religion and protection of religious freedoms. But in fact, it is a Political Movement at variance of the constitution of the United States. I think we have to be vigilant about this and make the proper moral arguments at the highest levels of the government that can both inspire those who would be radicalized to take a different path and alert so much of the country about what the intentions are of certain kinds of people which is not just violence but the establishment of an unconstitutional order in this country. I have a 14yearold son and we often times see the monster flailing and we can. Or we can go to the heart of what its calling the monster and what that is is an ideology of extremism that everybody on this panel has acknowledged. Its from Northern Virginia to the rest of the world. The heart of it is propaganda machines that are turning out the extremism of the propaganda machines are in iran and saudi arabia and all of their proxies. We do have rules when you do incite violence and lead people to violate u. S. Law. Amazon sent me overnight this book women in the shape of islam that outlines how a man can beat his wife. It was first delivered to me in morgantown West Virginia in the association. Ideas matter and words matter. We have to get at the heart of the ideas that are then leading to violence. We are ornate Conveyor Belt. We shouldnt just look at all of these incredible problems, we have to address the ideas that take them on that Conveyor Belt to that radicalization. Thats why i believe also the Internet Companies are failing us unfortunately. Amazon. Com bought me this book. The hosting website and i invite anyone to go there and use the Search Engine and look up the word do to see how many ways they say that jewish people should be murdered. They hope the website of the Islamist Organization based in Northern Virginia and chicago that once an Islamic State. We are not doing enough to police these bad ideas. These are ideas that are not protected simply by the free speech rights in america. We stand together. We should stand together against the muslim supremacists. They exist as all of the members of the panel ha have agreed upon and unless we go to the heart. Its the terrorist acts for the generations to come. We have to dismantle the network of these bad ideas that are being put forward into the minds and hearts of young people and we have to do it today and investigate and dismantle. We have to put forward exactly be ideas in the Muslim Reform Movement are ideas are for a secular government. For peace, human rights, including womens rights and the declaration of human rights. We have to put forth the good ideas and shuts down and eliminate and take from the earth be as bad ideas either through the relationships and the countries that are putting forward the ideas or by any means that we are able to then stop the promotion of those ideas into the minds of our young people. Thank you. I would like to go back to the big picture. If you reflect on how the western governmenwestern governs performed, my evaluation would be we have failed. We have these small programs that if you look at the big picture look like small drops in the ocean we have spent trillions of dollars and we have waged wars and 9 11. Whatever names you choose to call them, theyve grown exponentially. They are sympathizers, state agencies, the money and the funding that they get, all of that has gone exponentially since 9 11. We can barely say that weve stopped that. It habecause doubled, tripled, n some places it has quadrupled. Weve completely failed to define the enemy. We are going to develop all of these programs to limit the consequences of the next attack in 2001 to stand for no attack at all. Im really worried and i dont think we have the sense of urgency. We worry about some of these countries. Do you realize that france is in a state of emergency. The groups in europe are on the rise like theyve never been. Ive been in holland for 14 years. There was a small group and today its the secondlargest policy. After this attack in london. Its absolutely true when it comes to these largescale attacks, weve made it difficult to do that. When they are entering the minds of human beings and turning them into missiles against us because they promised them that is fantastic but in that sense, we failed and we dont get to the ideology. We are seeing thousands and thousands of men that are prepared to use anything as a weapon and its easy for us to say this is happening online but that is not entirely true. Its still happening in the mosques. Its happening in schools. What exactly is happening . It is what i call the evangelization that is carried out by muslims that accentuate the political military doctrine that they are faced with and they are using it to turn peoples minds and heads away from the principles but what we thought of the universal decency that is what their hearts and minds are being turned away from and they are turned away from the idea that you are doing gods work to name and office and bring down societies. It hasnt happened in the United States. It hasnt yet happened in europe, but there are countries in africa that have been brought down in the middle east that have been brought down and i think that we need to bring to this discussion i know that this is the Homeland Committee and we dont speak for the entire government but i dont think we should walk away from this afternoon when we are done with an idea that there is no sense of urgency. We have failed miserably. We shouldnt be penny wise and foolish. The resources you start with the definition of the problem and again, when what i am hearing a great deal of agreement in terms of what it is. Thank you mr. Chairman, Ranking Member. Of the ideology of violent and radical islamic extremism is a challenging topic and it certainly takes moral, political courage to speak up. As we reflect on and learn from these attacks, paris, london, manchester, istanbul, one year ago this week since the lone wolf attack in orlando we cant allow fear to disrupt our daily lives. We must remain vigilant about the growing threat of islamist extremism and worked to extinguish future tragedies. On the question regarding the freedom of religion, every one in the testimony made mentioning of it and that is we are not antiwar with a certain religion. At ththe freedom of religion whe pushing back. Out in the name of religion. Thank you for the question. They are a minority population. That is what my parents taught me. They are ones in which they are the sense of superiority to anybody elses world order. The history of how we got here is rooted in the last 100 years. The dismantling of the Ottoman Empire brought with it those that wanted to create a new Islamic State and so some of them had created movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. They are the ones we are talking about in terms of what they have done. They had a ticket to manhattan because like a lot of emigrants he was given a ticket to the heartland of america and he loved this country and its values. He loved the dignity of labor he saw by the professors. Meanwhile they came to this country and to colorado and he hated this country and the freedoms that women get in this country. So how do we protect muslims and how do we resist the Islamist Movement it is by differentiating that Islamist Movement from muslims and isolating and marginalizing it, taking down the websites. This is how we have to create an image and a vision of islam that is compatible with the 21st century and with the west and the United States. You come from a state that is the heartland of america. You believe in the same type of values my parents taught me to believe, and it is that kind of universality we have to recognize there are people in all communities including the Muslim Community that do not share a universal value. In the testimony you mentioned the companies are planning on walking to her wrist material. As a society in the United States, we encourage the flow of information and ideas but there are limits. The platform is for gruesome actions and it must stop. I spent 12 years in the Cloud Computing and software business, and i appreciate the challenge and commitment to maintain reputable platforms. They spent over 625,000 accounts for promoting extremism since 2015. How can the government and western society augment the Tech Companies efforts . We have to make a moral decision that we have a right to speak up and against any form of extremism in even when it comes to religion. We shouldnt give them a pass because they are expressing religion. We shouldnt give them a pass as we are afraid of offending muslims. If we have to use the same standards that we apply against the muslim supremacists that wants to control our country when i was doing research for this testimony i looked up this term of service that facebook has and youtube has. There are so many operators as you kno would know that are violating the terms of service by preaching hate from within the Muslim Community. So i feel it is my obligation to say we cannot allow that to exist and we have to see something Say Something verse even if it is by your own ten. I want to turn how do we get the platforms outside to get a twitter and facebook removing inappropriate content . During the cold war, we had the u. S. Information agency that got information out against the United States and the face to counter the falsehoods of the antiamerican propaganda. We had information policies, we had american houses for example in germany where there could be good Public Policy debate about these issues. We had all sorts of educational, cultural and other exchanges. Visitors programs, so many people abroad have a caricature view of the United States as fast cars skyscrapers. We need to portray to the world they are shutting down the voice of america. It is a crime. We broadcast the truth and ideas and give people accurate history by the totalitarian regimes. I would even argue that it was the decisive element to have brought down the soviet empire but i dont think most people in the Foreign Policy community understand that. I think however they talk about these things and the u. S. Government can magnify their messages. This means that they will the rape of a 12yearold girl and the will of the epidemic in pakistan. Are you going to go to hell, is it a satanic thing to do. It is the language that can be put on programming for example. We had the mighty wurlitzer, newspapers, journals of opinion, organizations, congress for cultural freedom to fight the ideas against communism. Of the money came from the foundation. Thank you mr. Chairman. I just have one further question. Part of the reason is to explore this. To what extent do we follow the trail in terms of money being diverted from the works lets put it that way how much more work do we have to do on that . A foundational point all of the money is very important. I think in terms of the overall counterterrorist effort is important but small and what we are seeing in the attacks domestically the funding is about the least important thing. Second, i do think that the Fbi Department of treasury and Intelligence Community writ large actually do a fantastic job about the pieces of this. So in terms of identifying the money and using that as a tool to identify pursuing them through covert action or Law Enforcement or elsewhere a second piece of actually stopping the broad flow from the charitable organizations are admittedly probably the most difficult piece. I think that we have done pretty well with established organizations. Hamas, hezbollah. The fbi has done work on pursuing that money in these large organizations. It gets much more difficult and i dont think weve done as well. The more diverse the networks become when you are dealing with the small charities, that its really difficult. So i think it is something we have to continue pursuing. It is worth while on the investment. It is, again this is a penny wise and foolish because it foot cost a lot. And it is also an important way to build partnerships in the community and talk about those that are doing good work they are not alienating the community when you shut down a charity because some of it has gone to bad things. That people say we better not call it islamic extremism. Its actually deep thought about what the right language is, what the problem is and then i think, and i hate to say this but Congress Bears Responsibility for this as well, a lack of Strategic Vision and funding for programs in a global robust way to match the many fantastic military intelligence Law Enforcement people. That to me if we can come out of this hearing with a commitment both domestically and internationally to do that with our partners in partnership and to make her a ticket or Branch Officials speaking about this problem in a way that does not alienate partners, this will be more. I appreciate your testimony. I agree wholeheartedly what should be pennywise and poundfoolish in terms of resourcing but it starts with the proper definition of the problem not denying any reality in understanding how i dont like this reality we are dealing with that we have to do deal with it. U. S. Constitution does not have this path. They have to recognize that i want to make all the windows i encourage all the senators and the members of the audience read the full testimony of all the witnesses. Read the full testimony. I think thats probably a pretty good start. So again thank you all for your courage, for your time and your testimony. This hearing record remains open for 15 days until june 29 at 5 00 p. M. For submission of statements and for the record. This hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]