[background noises] >> okay, please be seated everyone. good afternoon acs crowd. on behalf of our president, our acs board, myself and all of the acs staff, we welcome you to acs 2022 national convention. [cheering] [applause] you're probably going to hear this a lot in the next few days. maybe the first essay. gather for the first time in three years i also want to welcome and acknowledged we are thrilled to bills offer virtual convention experiences for those in washington d.c. kick off the national convention justice sonia sotomayor in her former law clerk tiffani rice. i don't look anyone there will forget the last time justice sotomayor joined us for national convention 2018 she still recovering from shoulder surgery i hope it's okay justice? >> i fully recovered pre- >> told him in advance the justice would not be shaking a lot of hands or hugging folks. no sooner did she get on stage, then she gave a big hug to acs student member who announced her. about 20 minutes into conversation with a sketch board member the justice stepped off the stage and began walking to the crowd. for the next 20 minutes will continuing her conversation with melissa justice sotomayor shook hands, offered kind words you awestruck students and lawyers sharing heartfelt readings with former law clerks and spouses of law clerks. follow the obvious reasons, that will be happening today, right? [laughter] what time i does a personal choice. but for reasons i think most of you know, i value my health because i am at risk for many of you are not. we'll go into the crowd and take off my mask if everyone puts on a mass refueling to put on a mask and put it over your nose we can unmask and feel welcome. not prepared to do it if you choose differently if you mask up i will come out and see you. i think that sounds like a resounding yes. we have staff that will walk the audience with masks in case you do not have any. we have a contract your guys you masking up. excellent. >> if you raise a little bit i don't know about you i can't see out there now. >> not at all. >> we raise the overhead lights? they get that will i continue. phil gage after that right there we go will keep it that way so we can see out there, okay? does not work for you justice? >> better, better. >> okay excellent. we are really excited about this thank you and think of you. the years on the court the person's only hispanic latino woman of color on the court, right now. [cheering] has served as a clear eye an impassioned voice applying the law will recognizing the humanity of those to whom the laws it is applied. in her dissent in 2014 affirmative action case, justice sotomayor it remarked the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to speak openly and candidly on the subject of race. and to apply the constitution with eyes open to the unfortunate effects of centuries of racial discrimination. [applause] appears later in a case about the admissibility of evidence discovered as a result of an unconstitutional police stop the justice declared we must not pretend that countless people who are you keenly targeted by police are isolated. there like canaries in the coal mines. word is that no one can breathe in this atmosphere. they are the ones who recognize an unlawful police stops corrode all averse civil liberties and threaten all of our lives. tell their voices better too, our justice system will continue to be anything but equitable. these are just a few telling examples of who justice sotomayor is as a jurist and a person really helping us to get to know justice sotomayor, the person a little bit better today as one of her former law clerks tiffani is amazing. and some but i encourage of you to get to know. her journey and driver unbelievable. we are really lucky to have her join us here today. graduate of georgetown law center clerked for the justice during the 2016 -- 2017 term. tiffani now serves as associate counsel to the president's office of the white house counsel. she is here interpersonal capacity here today. before recently taking this position she was codirector of the human rights clinic at howard university school of law and the senior associate wow okay all right. [laughter] at orrick herrington where she was devoted a significant part of her practice to civil rights cases in federal and state appellate courts. please join me in welcoming both tiffani and justice sonia sotomayor. [cheering] [applause] x hi justice. >> this is for you to pray. >> know it is all for you and thank you so much for allowing me too have this conversation with you in front of a few hundred of our closest friends. [laughter] >> there are guardrails but our conversation and i remember when i was a lawsuit and came to an event like this and i paid my initiation justice ginsburg was there and gave the disclaimer i'm about to give now. i was disappointed i thought she was going to tell me the real behind the scenes. [laughter] instead she say will i will say it's all of you that is no discussion of political issues are issues that may be or come before the court. no discussion of opinions, persons connected to the court. justice, can you tell people like me why that is so important especially now even though there so about the court we might want to ask you. >> it is especially now, tiffani that i want to ask you to explain to me right? i'll start explaining why i raise those guide rails from the first day i became a justice. many of you are young lawyers. every time you go into court and you argue before a judge, you are hopeful that you will convince that judge of the righteousness of your position. now, you are a lawyer so i hope when you do that you go in having evaluated the strengths, the weaknesses of your case. and that you won't be totally blinded to what realities might be in terms of the strengths or weaknesses of your case. but there is a need in lawyers and everyone who comes into the contact with the judicial system. too genuinely believe that the judge, the juror you are appearing before does have an open mind. what does that mean? you cannot ask a judge to have studied legal issues the way we do in case after case, having read the briefs in the case before him or her, having read all of the lower court opinions you can't expect that judge not to have an inclination the ways they think they will rule. you have to have a working hypothesis you enter oral arguments or listening to people before you. to be able to ask intelligent questions about what the holds might be in their arguments. what the strengths might be after what weaknesses those might gender and other cases. so, with all of that background go in realistically knowing the judge. you should rightly believe the judge can be convinced. the questions of my colleagues doesn't mean any of our votes necessarily change at the end of the argument it doesn't mean we have to have an open mind for me i hope to talk about political and my views on them. in this or rhetoric to try to convince my colleagues but to save it it's more important that is why commenting on social issues is not important. because i am one voice. the more important voices are all of you. instead of asking me how i feel about a question, ask yourself. i will get to vote if the issue comes performing. in my voice will be heard, i will assure you. [laughter] but yours won't unless you form the opinions. unless you study the questions. and unless you think through what you believe the right answer is. and then do something about it. if you think the court is going in the wrong direction, then you have to work at making the changes to get on the right course. whether through legislation or whatever methods are necessary in terms of lobbying, do it. but i think the justices judges might have oversized voices. about what right answers can be. and also opining on it ultimately hurts public confidence. so i guess now, i ask you why do you think it's particular important today? >> by the reasons you just stated. [laughter] really. >> she didn't do this when she was a law clerk for me. [laughter] >> at the time people are specially focused and what is happening. we want to know what is going on behind the scenes. but, for the reasons you just stated it's for us to do our job and speak in the arenas where we can use our voices instead of coming into your arena we what to there is an objective bench. and you can't be objective if you are telling people in settings like this what you think about all the issues. >> you cannot prejudge things and you should not as a judge brady shouldn't as a human being. if you're going to be making a decision you should always give an open mind and be welcoming of arguments. you may have thought there were not persuasive before but you don't how circumstances could make them persuasive later. click on the topic of current events of the world were living at a time or public institutions generally seem to be declining. and until recently the judiciary and the supreme court had enjoyed relatively steady confidence from the public. and gallup is now reporting that for the first time since he started pulling on the issue public confidence in the courts have plummeted at it is at its lowest point. so why should the public continue to have confidence and its institutions of government, including the supreme court? >> institutions are made by human beings. because we are human, by necessity we make mistake. it is the nature of the human enterprise that people, as a people, as judges, as a politician's, as presidents, as what ever that we are going to make mistakes. we are going to have errors of judgment. what you believe in, is an institutional structure, our government. how it operates to gather, the three branches of government. checks and balances in the way they operate. and in the people who created us. you are equal if not the fourth branch of government and perhaps the most important because you vote. and you are the ones who elect or at least indirectly appoint the other branches. and to that end, when we as institutions have made mistakes other parts of the branches remember i carried the people as the fourth now, that people have to work to make changes. i just recently have done a very close study of dred scott. the for the park content for the department in the last week i took a deep dive in a way i never have before. judge scott is reputed to be and i happen to greet one of the worst decisions of the supreme court. it is hyperbole to say it because the civil war, it did not cause a war. but it is the decision used on both sides of the civil war to motivate their respective adherents to fight for just war. the north use the dred scott decision to tell the northern states of the southern states were looking to spread slavery throughout the country but the southern states were talking about republicans undoing the constitution by not following it and not respecting the southern states rights to have slaves and we ended up in the civil war. the civil war and the, 14th and 15th amendment directly and did the three rulings of the dred scott case. it took a war. but it took nearly another century before brown versus board of education and a pitstop of incredible impact, plessy versus. for civil rights leaders in 1954 to have finally won the battle of freedom and civil rights. started in dred scott and ended in brown versus board of education. to make all people equal under the constitution. it was all for branches working together. and it took the efforts of all of those branches in different ways to secure the equality we are still seeking to defend today and to promote. but it can lost if we do not all play our part. and i think for my motivation, i want to give u.s. young lawyers is, dred scott lost his 11 year battle for freedom in the courts. and he died a year after dred scott was decided. never even got to enjoy the freedom he had fought because one of the people who helped him in his legal battle, the son of his original slave owner secured to buy his freedom but he hardly got to breathe it before he died but he won the war. and so that is why i think we have to have continuing faith in the court system, and our system of government, our ability, the constitutional a moment to change towards lobbying, towards continuing the battle each day. to regain the public's confidence that we, as a court, as an institution have not lost our way. we, as a society have taken stock some may disagree with. [laughter] but if we disagree we will continue to battle to do justice. i truly believe in the magical words the ark of the universe bends towards justice. and i can't keep going unless i continue to believe that. and i have to inspire all of you to continue to believe in that. >> this is why i love you. [laughter] >> i was asked that question looking for exactly the wisdom you get for all of us. so thank you. >> one of the reasons when i talked to my students and talk to other folks, for some of the lack of confidence or feelings of representation the court is not often look like the population, it is by opinion you are the first latina. we just had the senate confirmed the first black woman. what is the significance of women on the court and the significance of diversity in general? >> when justice keegan induction day arrived, president obama visited the court as most presidents do the moments before the induction. he bent over to kiss justice and said to her, something like are you happy i brought you yet another sister? ruth paused and said i will be happier when there are eight others. [laughter] and i also remember, i think i may have told you this story, that one day we were either at lunch or a conference but a group of justices work together. we were discussing a book, scorpions. scorpions is a book by noah feldman that talks about the really poisonous relationship among justices of the 1930s and 1940s. and someone mentioned that had changed dramatically. that was not our court today. and someone else asked, what you think because that change? the other justices around the room or attributing it to this chief justice, that chief justice. and silently in the corner, ruth said it is when sondra came to the court. they paused, then she paused and said to any of you remember that sonia was the one who forced us to resume lunches after rents and she was. she also introduced movie nights. we just celebrated with one of my other colleagues, a mail recently. she introduced the concept of civility. of disagreeing agreeably. and she literally took it upon herself and i heard this from the chief judge when i came, she insisted everyone attend the lunch. if you didn't she would come to your office, sit in front of your chair and say why are you coming? you gave a bunch of excuses she would say that is not acceptable. [laughter] and she would pick you up and walk you to the luncheon. ass there is a civility that women introduce. not all women. i do not want to presume all women are the same. i've been tarnished or painted with the brush of being brash and too assertive, and too aggressive. [laughter] comes with the game. it is not that we are the same. but i think generally speaking that there is a sense of collegiality. a sense of cooperativeness that women tend to insist upon. and as i said, not all. but i do think that ruth was right. it does make a difference but that's one part of your question the other part which i think is equally important. i've often told the story how many of you remember think was recently brought back, that picture of the very young african-american boy touching president obama's hair? it's emblazoned in my mind. i believe i read recently that the president re- met him as an adult. and so it was a touching moment in and of itself. but that moment really captures the impact of people seeing someone like themselves in positions of power. as one of my girlfriends told me during the nomination process when i was complaining about the rigors of the process of how horrible it was and why did i choose to do this et cetera. she looked at me and said this is not about you. this is about my 8-year-old daughter seeing someone like herself and what are the highest positions in the united states and knowing that she too has a chance. and i think that, that is such a critical reason for diversity. because we need to ensure everyone who is a part of our society, that we have an equal chance to achieve our dreams. i'm people won't believe it unless they see examples of it. it's easy to say we are a free country, it's a great opportunity for freedom and achievement. but if they do not see themselves in those positions, they are never going to believe it. and so, for me that is why having people of color, all people represented inner government institution. >> a similar phenomenon with the advocates. the people who are presenting argument at the court it is rare for it to beat minorities. specifically women of color per the last time a black woman argued was there i was with you when christina argued versus davis. that's a problem as well we are governed by decisions that are not often in a position to put our case directly before the court as advocates. how can we change that? >> selling him back to the previous question it's hard to get representation on a court that doesn't change regularly. we have an enormous period of change on the supreme court in the last ten years, less than ten years. but generally, most people live a lifetime without there being more than one change on the court as a whole. and so to get representation is not easy. you've got to wait long periods of time, okay? but it is almost the same with arguments. we are hearing what 68 -- 60 cases a year? is not of cases that give the opportunity that gets to appear before the court. it is also important to remember that it is not a training ground for lawyers either. because we are dealing with the most important legal questions facing the country. in every case we grab it's not the individual case that is at risk it is the rule of law. it is the rule of law that's going to bar or give positions to whole swabs of the society. and so you need finding what we find lawyers to argue those cases well. that takes training. and i cannot tell you the number of cases where i have sat there figuratively put my hands over my head this is the they hand this over to somebody who knew what they were doing? that is the worst feeling that i have as a justice. and i keep those notes. some dam going to write an article about it is a fine line. it's a fine line when someone is ready or not. but the line is often drawn by the individual. and you really have a responsibility to watch others argue cases if it is your first time come before the supreme court. you have to look within your soul and say am i truly ready or not? if you have any doubt you should hand the case over. but it takes that self awareness to do that. training is a most important thing. training includes serving on the lower courts. a stricter circuit trying to serve on the supreme court and then working for people who will train you in situations where you will get the training. join old law firms that have appellate practices. joint law firms that have appellate practices that encourage young people. [laughter] or who let you take pro bono cases that will get you to the court. many of the young lawyers who have been appearing before me my former clerks, have been doing it on lawford's have given them the opportunity to have their first arguments before the court. and so there are firms that encourage that bridge those are the firms you look for. i was just before meeting with a dear, dear friend of a judge on a minnesota court who asked that question but how do i increase diversity of my hiring? i want to give credit to one of my law clerks who, working with her prior court of appeal judge he asked her the same question and what of her co- clerks gave him a whole memo of how to increase clerk hiring for people of diverse backgrounds. one of the recommendations they made, took to heart. and that was, that we as judges have the power and have the responsibility to reach out to law school professors whose judgment we trust. and to tell them that it is our expectation that they will give us diverse recommendation for law clerks. and we expected them to actually mentor students of color from their first day in law school to the day they get them on the court. because that is really what you need is mentors who are going to work actively to get you hired. and so we, as judges can do that. students can ensure they look for people as mentors who will help them do that. and it does not mean looking for those professors of color in your school. it means looking for professors who you know need justices clerks and challenging them to work with you. you know, you can go up to people and say i want to be successful. i know you know how, teach me. and people will respond if you are that direct. that means working hard and they give you advice don't schlep it off. follow it, okay? i shouldn't say that i ignored some of the advice. [laughter] but the point is to fix this problem are going to have to work in every way. we are going to have to work at the law school level, to push more of our kids into clerkships and major places that will get them into law firms where they will argue eventually cases before the supreme court. we need more people of color in positions like the solicitor general's office. if you are a law student do not know what a bristow fellowship is, something is wrong. you should be aware of what it is praise and internship essentially at the solicitor general's office. many crystal fellows and upper supreme court clerkships. others involved in the appellate advocacy courses. and then finally, study the court. prepare yourself for those opportunities. study our cases, think about them, listen to oral arguments. start molding your own presentations in lower courts with the knowledge of how you have to be prepared eventually for supreme court arguments. it's never going to be easy for the reasons i explained. people are just not going to hand you a supreme court argument. but all of us can play a part in encouraging diversity that you're talking about. you are doing it. you went to howard to deborah. >> yet shout out to howard. [applause] i want to talk about some of the things i have learned from you. both the working of the cracks we haven't walked around kaman. [laughter] she might've as we walk i asked you because you. >> know i want you to ask i can multitask a little bit. [laughter] i go ahead. >> will go this weight we will talk too. >> the question was, came from a quote i heard some time ago an interview. the quote is what punishment and it speaks learning to appreciate things that we really wish hadn't happened for the reason i thought about you and i read this quote is, i was reading your middle school book with my son. you write about things that are difficult. losing your dad at a young age. having a chronic illness. growing up in the projects but shout outs to the projects because we run the world. you write about them not for a place of pain or negativity necessarily in appreciation for what you gain from them. so can you talk about the value of adversity and how it has made you a better person, a better justice, a better judge? >> you note tiffany your question shows me how much more educated you are than i am sometimes. it. [laughter] when you said the words i was thinking of that song, it's a popular song up at the young people here will be able to remind me of the exact words. something about a woman being left by her boyfriend and she's saying something like you thought you would kill me but i have survived. but of the actual words of that song? it is the same concept but it doesn't kill me it makes me stronger. >> thank you that's it. see i told you one of them. if it doesn't kill me, and makes me stronger. and so yes. that is what adversity does to you. it forces us to find the best and strongest part of yourself. it forces you to be inventive about ways to face the problems and get around them. it forces you to look at your soul and say will i survive? i will. now, can you do that without adversity? and i will say to every parent in this room, because most of you are affluent. you have one heck of a challenge. that is the one 100% question that all of my relatives who came up in circumstances similar to mine, are asking about their children. will they be able to do is much as we do because they have not grown up with our hardships. and i don't know, but i think so. i say i don't know because i don't know if you don't suffer a little bit, whether you realize and may be a lot, whether you realize and accept how much that helps you become a better person. and it does. it helps you to forgive weaknesses and other people. one of the biggest things that i realized was the people who loved me the most, particularly my father how desperately he loved me. that love was not enough not to let it kill himself. he died of alcoholism. he couldn't stop drinking people do things in life the response over the choice isabel take from choices my dad pays for his, okay? but i could forgive him. i could to look and say, we as human beings are not perfect. but it does not mean we are horrible people. we do wrong things. every parent in this room has had a child look at them and say don't you love me anymore? and every parent says are you silly yes i love you. just don't like what you did. some of them had some horrible, horrible crimes. but i still had to look for their humanity. it did not stop me from punishing them in some of them i punished very harshly. that is not the point. i wasn't there to play god and judge them. i was there to impose a sentence and do it in a respectful way. and so, i think that is what adversity teaches you. and it is my hope that those who don't suffer adversity, think about that and trying to put themselves in the shoes of other people. and know what the value of struggle is. note what the value of hardship is. and at least be grateful for what you have and not resentful of what other people have had to work for. so, you are saying yes. it is true and you are right. and i do think it is important to understand that hardship can be a gift from god, not a punishment. [applause] [applause] you have babies here. you're not babies you are grown young men and women. am very happy to see you all. i love you guys. >> determines a couple of audience questions that we have it. this agreement the importance of engaging people with whom i disagree someone for the court to have a talk i really didn't want to hear anything this person had to say but you caught me i know you had to go you never know what you will learn unexpected sources. so why did you make me do that? [laughter] and how do you go about cultivating relationships with people with whom you really, really disagree. >> tiffany you went, right? >> i did. >> you actually came away conflicted, didn't you? >> i did i really did pick what you conflicted because the person was charming, correct? >> that is right. and you thought to yourself how can they believe what they believe? >> exactly. oh my god, sorry. >> the one thing i spoke about before, about people doing wrong things but not being bad people necessarily. i believe that about everyone. i believe that there is good in every single human being. and it does not matter what their political views are. i understand that human beings share basic human values in kind, in turn, and kind. how many of you remember the shakespeare line by shylock where he goes on and on don't we bleed the same? okay? we do have those common human emotions. and so with every single person that i meet, particularly if i disagree with them i try to find the goodness in them. i try to find what part of them can we communicate with together? and so i may have used and i haven't use as an example might relationship with justice clarence thomas. i suspect, maybe this is not true anymore. i suspect i have probably disagreed with him more than any other justice. that we have not joined each other's opinions more than anybody else. and yet, justice thomas is the one justice in the building that literally knows every employee's name, every one of them. not only does he know their names, he remembers their families names and histories. he is the first one who will go up to someone when you are walking with him and say is your son okay? how is your daughter doing in college? he is the first one that when my stepfather died sent me flowers in florida. hate to ease a man who cares deeply about the court as an institution. about the people who work there but about people. he has a different vision than i do about how to help people. and about their responsibilities to help themselves. i have often said to people, justice thomas believes that every person can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. i believe that some people can't get to their bootstraps without help. they need someone to help them lift their foot up so they can reach those bootstraps. that is a very different philosophy of life. but i think we share a common understanding about people and kindness towards them. that is why i can be friends with him still continue our daily battles. [laughter] over our difference of opinions and cases. but, you really cannot begin to understand an adversary unless you step away from looking at their views as motivated and bad faith. but until you can look at their views and think about but the human reaction is, that is motivating those views. were they afraid of? what is it that is inside of them moves them to see the world in this way? you cannot begin to engage them unless you can do something about that conversation. and so yes i have friends of all backgrounds. and friends of all political views. and i will continue to do so because that is important to me understanding how i can make the best pitch long-term to achieve the goals that i think are important. >> thank you justice. i think we have a few audience questions. and i'm not sure where you are. >> sitting right here. >> perfect. >> all right who is it and tell me who you are. >> there she is. >> hold on walking my way. >> right here. >> all come around and give you a hug as soon as i walk around this way okay? >> thank you thank you. my name and i am a board member of the american constitution society i'm also a cochair of the los angeles lawyers chapter dedicated my career to advocating for the rights of children of color. i had the great privilege of meeting you over a decade ago in 2011 when you came to columbia law school and you spoke to the latino lawsuit association. and at that time i was a part of a small group of latinos at the law school. the first generation of my family to go to law school and graduate. my pap is not straightforward and it was difficult at times. but listening to you speak was an incredible motivation for me too keep going. so thank you for so much for coming at that time i will forever cherish that memory. >> that's why keep going back to law schools. >> exactly. so now that so many for underrepresented communities in the legal profession are attending and graduating from law school, my question is what guidance you have for first generation lawyers who might find themselves in spaces where their lived experiences it might not be shared by other people and might not even be understood to mark. >> first of all and every experience that most of us from our challenge backgrounds come from, every space we are going to enter we are going to be different. and i do think there is value in knowing that one of the things that is important is for you to take the time to explore their lived experience. to talk to people who are different than you. to understand where they are world view and self identity come from. so i have a dear, dear friend, we have lost touch in college. he was from oregon. and my friend opined he was at princeton when i say pines, he was really sad most of our four years. one evening we were sitting around and i just said to him why do you miss it so much? what is there? and he just sat there for over two hours talking about the physical beauty of oregon. and he talked about what a deep clash it was to see the urban environment, to have lights that blocked the stars. i never even thought the lights to block stars. [laughter] think i came from new york city i was in princeton a little bit suburban but still urban, okay? i did not see stars until i went once to phoenix, okay. [laughter] sears so they had to take me out to the desert for me too see things i had never seen before. but he had described it to me. talked about the blue sky and the way i have never ever experienced in my life. in that conversation starters on other conversations about how different my world was. and so i think when you are in new environments, one of the hardest things to do is seek out people who are different from you. to learn about them and in that learning be open. to share with them your different experience. and to talk about how that affects you in your life in the work you are doing. people will open up if you are open with them but you have to show interest in them first together. and so i do think that one of the opportunities that kids from our environment have two go to places like i did like princeton and yale, is that i got to meet these people who were so different than me. and i got the ability to call many of them friends. and i hope that will be what you do in your life and in your environment. make friends with them. >> thank you justice. >> i think we have time for one more. we will take on the audience questions. >> hi can you hear me okay? >> we can hear you. >> okay my pronounce or she and her. and like you justice i'm also from the bronx. i am a rising third-year law student at the university of georgia school of the former president of our student chapter. so, before law school i chose an interdisciplinary major for undergrad. and i see a lot of value looking at a problem from multiple different perspectives and disciplines. so my question for you is outside of the field of law, what field do you recommend progressive lawyers look to for inspiration or for new perspective on their work? >> you know that is such a fascinating question. and i don't think that i have had the time or have reflected on that before. so maybe over time i will think of a different answer. i will give you the one i think of today. go study religion. i don't mean go study catholicism or judaism or muslims issues. studied them all. i think the tension that we experience in our society, the wars that are being fought virtually all of them are being religiously motivated. and i do think there is something about religious doctrine that inspires passion in people, and away sometimes it is not rational by the way. but it is understanding how that happens and why that is important as a perspective that we need to have. because it can be what leads a society into wars. we certainly have that already occurring. and unless you understand what those motivations are, you really have no way to know how to combat or diffuse them to help the society avoid that kind of mechanism. i did not do that in college. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't. in effect for years i have been encouraging students to take courses. it's a perspective that we need. we think about the entrance partisanship. it's almost religious and fervor study might be helpful. not be too far along too go back to that. we do have a lot of other young people around here. [laughter] by the way i told all of my nieces and nephews in god's children should do it and none them followed my advice. >> thank you so much. >> wonderful to meet you, thank you. >> i said one more question but i'm going to add one more. >> okay. one of my favorite questions to ask you which as we started the conversation talking about public confidence and institutions. but as lawyers a lot of us came into this because we are committed to social justice. we want to do good in the world. and his gotten really hard. so why should we, as lawyers continue to have hope? give a choice question at. >> i have none. quick sets answer for everyone in this room. you throw up your hands, you can lie down and let the truck run you over. or you can do comic get up, build the barricades. and i don't mean this figuratively. [laughter] i do not mean the liquor and ten literally and figuratively. you can get up and with all of your might try to stop that collision. >> i don't think i have a choice. neither do you. either of us were born to be bystanders and life to let things just happen to us. it is not accessible. other things i can't control. yes you can your destiny is in your hands. it's our hands working together. and so for me -- look there are days i get discouraged. i am deeply, deeply disappointed. and yes, there have been moments where i have stopped and said is this worth it in the end? and every time i do that i lick my wounds for a little while and sometimes i cry. and then i say okay. let's fight. [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] bikes thank you so much for great conversation. and thanks to all of you for being here. great audience. and with that i think we are done the pickax aright, bye-bye everybody. >> by. [applause] [background noises]