Transcripts For CSPAN2 Members Urged To Take Action On Border Security Tackle Crime 20170501

Recess at any time. Or attribute of maintaining sovereignty is to maintain and control our borders. This failure has allowed millions of foreign nationals to enter the u. S. Illegally an narcotics to enter our country illegally. It is time to secure the border. Essential issues of the president s 2006 campaign was the promise to build and impenetrable physical tall beautiful southern border wall. The administration is taking steps to fulfill the promise and the subcommittee on National Security is closely monitoring this process. The president issued an executive order on january 25 with the department of Homeland Security to take all appropriate steps to immediately plan, design and construct a physical wall along the border. On march 17 dhs requested to request for proposals as the first step in fulfilling the requirements. Dhs is expected to use the prototypes to inform actual construction. Border walls have seen success in recent years. They have. [inaudible] the construction of the security fence on the israel sinai border cut illegal entries from over 16500 down to 43, and 12 in 2014, a 99 decrease. Israels Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remarked that President Trump is right, i built a wall along israels southern border and it stopped all illegal immigration. Great success, great idea. Do those who oppose the wall oppose the success or is it because they acknowledge its potential effectiveness at curbing immigration. I think we have to figure that out. Recent Media Coverage has focused on the cost of building the wall and obviously this is a legitimate issue. Dhs has just begun the procurement process yet opponents of a secure border have employed exaggerated cost estimates about a border wall. Senate democrats recently issued a report claiming the wall would cut 70 billion. Todays democratic witness wrote in january that a border wall would cost as much as 14 billion which is honestly much different than the Senate Democrat estimate. What they did is take the highest historical number they could find and multiply it by the total miles of the border which i dont think anyone is suggesting the way to do it. The American People deserve better than ms. Information. The wall should be built in a fiscally responsible way and there are a variety of creative ways by using the fees from drug dealers to build the wall. Also they need to identify whether it will have a positive effect at the local state and federal level. Today we will hear testimony from doctor steven on a significant burdens and having an unsecured border can impose on u. S. Taxpayers. He estimates that if a border wall prevented between 160000 160000 200000 illegal crossings which is only about 10 over the next decade, then the u. S. Would realize between 12 and 15 billion in savings. That would effectively offset the cost of building the wall even if you didnt use the assets. Its more about dollars and cents. Illegal immigration has had significant human cost. Too many humans have been robbed of loved ones through crimes committed by criminal aliens who should not have been allowed in this country to begin with. One of them is agnes who lost her son ronald da silva 15 years ago today. He was murdered by a previously deported illegal immigrant with a long criminal record. She herself is a legal immigrant from hungary. She did at the right way and her son was taken from her by someone who had no right to be in our country. What makes this tragedy so painful that ronalds murder was preventable had the government simply done its job and maintained a secure border, the murder would have never entered our country and ronald would still be with us. Building a wall on the u. S. Mexican border will not stop all illegal immigration but its a first step consistent with expenses in san diego and yuma and has the potential to dramatically reduce it. The United States will need to deploy additional human, technological and legal resources. They will restore the rule of law and deter wouldbe Illegal Immigrants from circumventing the law and the first place. We hope our witness from the Border Patrol council will speak more broadly about what our officers and agents on the ground see and what they need to do to do their job. This will continue robust oversight over these actions in determining how they are meeting the threat posed by the border and we want to make sure taxpayer money is being used well and the barrier is being built in an effective way and we will monitor this as it unfolds. I think the witnesses for being here today and further testimony, and with that, i yield my friend massachusetts. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and our staff on both sides and the Witnesses Today on what is a very emotional and legitimately, for some of you today. I look forward to transparent analysis where we have a need assessment and in engineering assessment as to the cost benefit of this potentially huge investment. I cant imagine being the father of two sons who lost a parent to violence. I cant imagine what it is like to be here on this anniversary. For your loss and your passion, i am very respectful in so much that we might have some differences. I understand whats brought you here today and the earnest desire to make sure other parents will never be in the situation you are in. Ms. Espinoza, but i have read in your work is that you see many, many cases, i very much respect your work in the ultimate desire that you have. To you and your colleagues, Great Respect respect for the work you do. I know when i was in the California Legislature having conversations with their state Law Enforcement, the difficult jobs you do and the department of justice in california when they work with you. The the other two witnesses, thank you for being here. Let me just add to that that this crucial work we take is very serious. It should be factbased so we can identify what measures will work, with the benefits would be and what the cost would be to the taxpayers and all americans. What the president is proposing simply wont work in my view and will divert resources away from the area critical to protecting the health, safety and security of americans. He addressed his concerns with the president s plan. He wrote an oped in the Washington Post in which he called the wall the most expensive and least effective ways to secure the border. He also wrote, true Border Security demands of flexible strategy that includes a mix of personnel and changing tactics all of which, at a lower price tagged in a border wall. I am in agreement with my colleague. The proposed rule is incredibly expensive with little return on investment despite the fact that he claims it would cost ten to 12 billion. Most analysis place the number far higher. The department of Homeland Security conducted an internal study that estimated the border wall would cost nearly 22 billion in upfront Construction Cost alone. Other independent and Congressional Studies have estimates up to 40 or 70 billion. This is all in contrast to the same administration that was proposed adding including helping everyday americans. It is troubling that they propose billions towards the wall while slashing critical programs including his proposed budget that would cut 20 of the funding, jeopardizing medical advancements to cure chronic diseases to save lives including cancer. His law will undermined our National Security by redirecting funds from programs that actually work to secure our border. This would be pooled from Airport Security programs that help securities major points of entry where drugs are much more likely to be trafficked into our borders. Despite the rhetoric during the obama administration, the number of unauthorized immigrants dropped from 12point to million down to 1. 1 million in 2014. During the same time, more people became unauthorized to be in the United States simply by overstaying visas and coming across the u. S. Border with mexico. 40 of all individuals have overstayed their visas rather than coming across the border. The president s proposal to build a concrete wall across the length of our southern border fails to be workable or costeffective. His request for congress to appropriate billions of dollars is shortsighted request for congress and breaks one of his most fundamental Campaign Promises that they would not pay a dime for the wall on the u. S. Mexico border. We have a short video to play. Without objection. We are going to build the wall. We have no choice. Who. Who is going to pay for the wall . Mexico will pay for the wall. Mexico will pay for the wall. Mexico will pay for it. Whos going to pay for the wall. Mexico who . Mexico. You believe mexico will pay for it. No. Hes obviously talking about having mexico pay for it. You think thats a viable option. No. Thank you, mr. Chairman. When announcing his president ial bid, he stated i would build a great wall and nobody builds a better wall than me, believe me and i will build them inexpensively. I will build a great wall on our Mexican Border and i will have mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words. At the february 2016 Campaign Campaign rally he reiterated we will build a great wall and mexico will pay for 100 . Of course these are only a few of the countless times he has overpromised and under delivered to the American People. Less than 100 days into his presidency, he has completely abandoned this promise and changed his tune. Earlier he tweeted mexico will pay for the wall, eventually and in some form. With his track record, nobody should believe that. Instead he is demanding American Families have the burden of finding additional billions of dollars to build this wall. Until earlier this week, he was signaling he would be willing to shut down the government to get the leverage to take this money out of the wallets of hardworking families. We have a real problem to address in securing our borders, we all agree, but agree, but the presence proposed border wall does nothing or very little to advance our National Security. It should not be brought build on the of hardworking American Families. I will hold the record open for any members who would like to submit a recognitio written statement. We now recognize our witnesses. Maria espinosa, director of the remembrance project and mr. Former assistant secretary for border, immigration and trade policy, department of Homeland Security. Glad you. Glad you were able to get here. Welcome you all. All witnesses will be sworn in before they testify. If you could please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god . Thank you, please be be seated. All witnesses answered in the affirmative. To allow time for discussion, limit your testimony to five minutes. Your entire written entire written statement will be made part of the record. Thank you, i would like to think the chair and the committee for inviting me. I am director of research at the center for immigration studies. My testimony today is based on the recent report published by the center. This reports the fiscal cost based on physical estimates developed by the engineering and medicine for immigrants by education level. These calculations are based on established facts about Illegal Immigrants. First, there is agreement that Illegal Immigrants have modest levels of education. The vast majority didnt graduate in their home country or have only the equivalent of high school education. Immigrants who come to america with modest education, regardless of legal status create more costs than they do in taxes. Combining them with the net fiscal estimate from the academy study shows that on balance, if you take all the taxes they are likely to pay in their lifetime given their education level and all the services and costs they create, there is a net drain on taxpayers of about 75000. Illegal border crosser or 7. 5 billion. 100,000. This figure is only for the original illegal immigrant. It doesnt count their descendents. We can do that. If we apply those estimates the cost would rise to about 94 billion or about 9. 4 billion for 100,00 100,100,000. The fiscal cost of Illegal Immigrants is not due to the fact they dont want to work. Its not due to the fact that many work off the books. It reflects the educationa attainment. People with this skill profile, legal immigrant or otherwise pay less in taxes than they use services. Theres almost absolute agreement on that these estimates do is give us an idea of what they cost but also evaluate the likely savings that different enforcement strategies create for taxpayers. The newly released daddy indicates that perhaps 1. 7 million new Illegal Immigrants will successfully cross our border in the next ten years. If that is the case, if that were to happen, it means if we were to stop 19 at 12 of the crossers over the next decade, it would generate 12 or 15 billion in savings which might be enough to pay for a wall meaning it could pay for itself even if it only kept out a small portion of the people expected to come. The nato institute evaluated my statements and they concluded that the immigrants werent as unskilled as my data represented but they still found that the average numbers they found were 4. 3 billion. 100,000 crossers. In their analysis cato tries to argue that state and local government costs shouldnt count because its the federal government that build the wall. This argument doesnt make sense to me but its up to congress whether to count the state and local costs. It seems reasonable to do so. Finally, they employ a concept called net present value which calculates the fiscal impact, but this concept commonly used by economists has the effect of reducing the size of the drain that unskilled immigrants will create because it discounts the cost in the future. If you didnt do the discounting, the costs are higher, roughly double. If you want to do a different calculation where you dont discount the future, thats what you would get. The bottom line is unskilled workers is very costly to taxpayers given their education and given the realities of the American Economy that pays less educated wages coupled with the existence of a large and well developed administrative state. The fiscal cost is not a moral defect on their part. It simply the reality of education. Thank you for allowing me to testify and i look forward to your questions. Thank you we now recognize mr. Jog for five minutes. I appreciate the opportunity to be here today. I want to emphasize that i will not advocate for 2000 miles worth of border. That is not necessary. What i will advocate for is a border wall in strategic locations which helps us secure the border. I want to point out what happened and give you a historical analysis of why the border is unsecured today. In the mid80s the United States faced its first illegal immigration crisis. The Border Patrol had approximately 4000 agents charged with controlling 2000 miles of the international border. Other than wire fences there were no Border Patrol on property. They were overwhelmed and couldnt deal with the influx of the illegal aliens so they pass the Immigration Reform act of 1986. A promise to secure the border and ensure the United States would never be put in the same situation again. The act failed. It failed in large part because the United States government put the cart before the horse. Without securing the border, the government legalize several million persons who willfully violated u. S. Law. By so doing we broadcast a clear message to the world that our laws could be made void if enough people entered the country illegally. The message was heard worldwide and illegal immigration exploded. After 86, illegal border crossings took place almost exclusively in San Diego County and el paso texas. They thought if they controlled these two corridors they could control immigration and smuggling. They threw threw many resources at the serious but left other areas, yuma arizona and tucson arizona sectors wide open. The prevailing thought was the infrastructure did not exist on either side of the border to allow smuggling organizations to move their operations to the inhospitable and barren desert areas of arizona. The prevailing thought was wrong. For more than ten years, the tucson Border Patrol sector was overrun because we did not have the foresight to realize smuggling is big business and the cartels are flexible and adaptable. In essence we created the problem in tucson and the citizens and ranchers paid for our mistakes. Unlike today, in the mid 80s and early 90s, isis didnt exist. Criminal cartels didnt control every facet of illegal activity on the border and transnational gains went prevalent in the United States. Today however this is our reality. If we refuse to learn from failed order Security Policy in the past we will never secure the border. We must take a proactive approach and it must at what the proper mix of technology, infrastructure and manpower. It must be comprehensive. We must acknowledge shutting down the Rio Grande Valley sector without addressing other areas will create the same type of vacuum we created in arizona. Part of the proper infrastructure of the wall is being heavily debated and as an agent who worked in two of the busiest sections of border control, i can personally tell you how effective border barriers are. When i got got to the tucson sector we had next to nothing by way of infrastructure. For every illegal border crosser that i apprehended, three got away. The building of barriers and fences, a bipartisan effort, allowed agents to dictate where illegal crossings took place in double how effective i was able to be in apprehending illegal Border Crossers. As an agent working with and without barriers and as the person selected to represent them i can personally attest to how effective a wall in strategic locations will be. I am for both sides of the aisle to quit politicizing borders carry and illegal border entries and work with the men and women of the United States Border Patrol by providing the Proper Technology infrastructure and manpower. By so doing, Border Patrol agents will secure the border. I appreciate your time and look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Ms. Espinoza, you are up for five minutes. Distinguished members of the committee, mr. Chairman, i am i am honored to be here today to testify on issues associated with National Security. My testimony is based upon my nearly eight years of traveling across the country with the remembrance project, an organization that advocates for families, our countries previously most forgotten whose loved ones were killed by illegal aliens. My testimony is designed to assist you and others of the urgency to secure our country. Americans will continue to be under assault until the wall is built on the border secured. I have attended murder trials, civil hearings, testified in other states and participated in roundtable discussions with sheriffs. I have have made presentations and spoke with groups all over the United States about the most devastating of all impacts of illegal immigration, the loss of a life that i have had hundreds of firsthand experiences with many stolen lives families. For nearly 2020 years, families of americans slain by illegal aliens have given heart wrenching congressional testimony like the one you are about to hear from mrs. Given a, about the tragic and violent killings of loved ones perpetrated by someone who should not have been here in the first place. The irony, while it seemed the politicians listened and even publicly gave the families their condolences, congressional leadership, the bodies of both houses have failed to enact the very measures that would have saved american lives. America has spoken. We want the wall built right away. Today i speak on behalf of the remembrance project advocacy where we proudly support our president and American First National agenda. The walls of Foundation Upon which it comprehensive border policy can and must be built. It is of the utmost urgency. First, for a future perspective on a National Open borders policy, lets look at texas over the past six years. According to the department of Homeland Security status indicators, over 217,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local texas jails between 2011 and 2017. They committed nearly 600,000 crimes ranging from assault, of which there were nearly 70002 over fix thousand violent Sexual Assault of women and children and homicides which numbered nearly 1200. All preventable. These are only a sampling of the heinous crimes they have committed. The department of Homeland Security reports that a full two out of three of these crimes were reported by aliens here illegally. Those who falsely state that a great border wall would not work either dont know the history or are in denial. compared to the hundreds of thousands entered and 88 arrest. Your Honorable Committee and with men and women to do work. Two faltered as dire future consequences to americans and americas future. Its not built when another open borders president is elected, the technological deterrence and allimportant army of Border Agents will be reduced or entirely removed, allowing this holocaust of american killings to resume. This unwise policy must not be allowed to be perpetrated upon our families. Aced upon preliminary information we believe americans in the tens of thousands. But because the government at every level has previously failed to identify correctly the illegal alien killers, the windows for sure. We welcome congresses commitment to ensure an accurate accounting and belief that all americans if they knew the true human cost of this invasion with demand of all be built immediately. Just last month there was a string of reports come of heinous crimes committed by illegal alien gang members. The remembrance of project advocates transparent President Trump with American People in demanding that congress initially funded the construction of a wall. All of you here today at all of congress bear a duty not to steer constituents but you all americans to preserve our sovereign nation and keep our communities safe by first and foremost securing our borders. I ask you to do all you can to stop these preventable killings and murders that permanently separate families from their loved ones. Please, not one more stolen life. Thank you. God bless you and god bless america. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me here today. I was born in budapest hungary. I was to end my family left in 1957 as refugees. We emigrated to brazil were riveted for 13 years trying to come apply to come to the United States. My parents, brother myself legally immigrated to the United States. We followed all the rules, the laws. We followed all the Background Investigation, thorough Background Investigation and thorough medical exams by american consulates appointed and approved doctors. We also have to have the character witnesses attesting with good moral standing. And my father was required to have a job contract. Today april 27 marks my sons 15th anniversary of his murder. Ronald was my first born, my only son. His father, my first husband was a brazilian national. Ronald was a good person, kind, considerate, respectful, loving, funny, sometimes a practical joker. He helped my parents and one was a good big brother to his two sisters. Became was always there when anyone needed his help. Ronald went to visit his two children. While standing in the driveway a shot, bullet intended for someone else. The shooter was an illegal 80 with a long criminal record who had been previously deported. He immediately after the shooting he fled to mexico. His wife was depositing her welfare check out the credit union so he could live on. He eventually turn himself, return to the United States and was sent to prison for tuesday to be released in two years and seven months. I am afraid that california will not notify isis pending released or it took me almost 11 years to find out if he had an i. C. E. Cold. Our borders would have been come if our borders would have been secured ronald would still be here along with thousands of innocent victims killed by illegal aliens. Many criminal illegals come illegal aliens deported returned our unsecured borders to continue victimizing american citizens. One life lost is one too many. We need a barrier, a wall and more to Border Patrol officers to protect us all. Ronald murder devastated my family. My only sibling, my brother had a massive stroke at age 51 due to the overwhelming stress and despair. He died the following day. Only four months after ronald was murdered. My brother was married to my sisterinlaw who is to mexico and it devastated them. My father gave up living. He wanted to die, to be with ronald, his first grandchild. It took him 11 years of suffering. My mother tried to be so hard and strong for me and the family. She was all rock but i could see the incredible pain in her eyes. She comes to come is in heaven. They are together, my son, my brother, father and mother. Ive never seen by husband morecambe retired deputy chief when my son was murdered so helpless. Watching the devastation, panic to pain there was nothing he could do to undo or fix what happened. He was the one to call me at the campground where i was camping with my two daughters with girl scouts to tell me that ronald was shot in the shoulder and he was expected to survive. We immediately drove home. As i walked in house he hugged me and said, i am sorry. I told him i is going to the hospital to be with ronald so when he came out of surgery he would not be alone. It was then he said im sorry, ronald didnt make it. Now i live a life of pain and suffering wondering what would want to look like wax what he had gray hair, age 44 courts courts would he be married cracks what we see be doing . I miss this beautiful smile, his warm barracks, a sense of humor. Our talks. I miss his voice come his sense. I miss family gettogethers with all of us present for my family is permanently broken and separated. I cant tell it anywhere in the world to see them ever again. I will forever miss all the tomorrows and all those taken from me. All because a broken open borders. I miss watching him, i miss watching him i his close and spent a long time fixing his hair. But what miss the most is him calling me mommy. I miss everything that i simply missed my center all i have left on his close, old photos, baby shoes, baby bottles, some toys and memories. I live with this emptiness, a hole in my heart longing for my son. And they live with a daily fear of losing another child or family member. We cannot afford to lose one more life. Ronald is just one life. His death is not an isolated case. His murder also fled to mexico and he also had been previously deported. His widow and i became friends. We would compare our pain, are heard, our grief and often cry together. Officer don johnston, a coworker of my husband, a shot by someone who overstayed his visa. He became died of his injuries. Hundreds of victims can innocent lives. I wonder how many more are there that we dont know that because our government does not keep statistics on illegal aliens crimes. What an overall problem it is for our nation that so many of you citizens are killed on a daily basis by illegal aliens who shouldnt be in our country to begin with. When i became a u. S. Citizen, the first president i voted for was president Ronald Reagan who signed an amnesty bill which was supposed to be followed in securing our borders enforcing immigration laws within our country, including verifying rights to employment. These things have never been done and the conditions have gotten worse every year. The irony is, my family and i legally immigrated to the United States, and an illegal murdered my son. Who should have never been in the country to begin with. I urge you to do what so many politicians have promised for years, a secure border, eliminating intended for illegal aliens to come here, and enforcement of existing immigration laws. It is too late for my son ronald and the thousands killed by illegal aliens, but there are so many lies the can be saved if you would just take action and put americans first. Our President Donald Trump deserves more respect. He is working so hard to protect our country, protect our constitution. Illegal aliens have no constitutional rights. I country without border is no country. You may say that it is inhumane to deport illegal aliens who didnt care about breaking our laws. How many, how inhumane is it that my son ronald and thousands of innocent victims lives were cut short cracks it is the responsibility of the government to keep us safe and President Donald Trump is working to accomplish that. Please come to an estate in his way. Work with him. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Mr. Stodder, you are up for five minutes. Thank you so much. Chairman desantis, mr. Desaulnier, distinguish members can think of are invited to testify today to present my views on did mir station to prose wall across the u. S. Mexico border. Ive been around this issue for a while in both the bush Bush Administration as well the obama administration. In my view President Trumps proposal to build a wall across the entire u. S. Mexico border is deeply misguided. Congress should not support it. Building a wall would be a massive waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. Unfortunately we will get very little in return because the wall will not help us address in the most pressing challenges we face at the border. In fact, it will make us less safe. This is for several reasons. First, the wall attacked the wrong problem. The fear America America some of being overwhelmed by massive numbers of mexican economic migrants seeking to cross the rio grande to take our jobs. This is an old outdated talking point from the 1990s. Of course illegal mexican migration still occurs. The rail is the Border Patrol apprehensions are at historic lows. Its true in the 1990s the board was out of control with illegal entries from mexico approaching 2 million a year. Since then we dramatically strengthened enforcement and brought far greater control for our border. Weve tripled the size of the Border Patrol. Weve deployed sensors, and yes, we have constructed hundreds of miles of fence in strategic locations mostly in urban areas like the double layer fence in san diego. This blend of enforcement presents extremely successful makes it far harder and more expensive for people to cross illegally. It only tells part of the strength of the other more important point is mexico is changing dramatically. Over the last two decades since nafta mexicans go into the world 11th largest economy and our Third Largest trading partner. There are good jobs in mexico and people are staying to take in. Whats the result of all this . According to the pew Research Center more mexicans leave the United States and head north and Border Apprehensions of mexicans are at the lowest in decades. With overall apprehensions now 75 less than at the High Water Mark of 2000 when 1. 6 million were apprehended by the Border Patrol. Of course some do still try to cross and some do get in. Border enforcement will never be perfect in the same or even the best urban Police Forces will never be able to prevent all crying. The reality is the investment this congress added ministrations of both parties have made in securing the border have paid off our border with mexico is far more secure than ever before. This is not suggest we dont have pressing charges at the border. We do. Ill wall will not help us address any of them. First, the wall will not make us more secure against terrorism. Theres no evidence terrorists seeking to enter the United States across our southwest border. One of the most Important Reasons for this is a Close Partnership with mexico. We Work Together to share and analyze information on travelers to the western hemisphere so we spot known or suspected terrorists for the getty. Far away from the southwest border is the fight over the wall poisons the Security Partnership with mexico, it will make the mac and people less safe. Second, the wall will not stem the flow of illegal drugs. This is for the super recent drugs for the most part are smuggled into our country in the thousands of cars and trucks that enter our official ports of entry. Such as santa cedro. No one is proposing to build a wall across interstate five or block all trade or travel with mexico and a wall will not stop drugs and being smuggled through or by aircraft. Third, the wall will not help us fight the drug cartels. Most Senior Cartel leaders dont travel to viewers, but if they do they dont wander across the desert. If mexico reduces its cooperation with i. C. E. And dea in retaliation or effort to build up what it will be far more difficult for us to successfully build cases against key figures or locate them for arrest. Finally the wall will not help us address the most pressing migration challenge we face, which stemmed from the crisis of Central America with thousands of guatemala, el salvador and huntehonduran families fleeing violence, extreme poverty and averment of crises and coming to our borders to seek asylum. Most of these migrants are come to our ports of entry or voluntarily turning consulting to Border Patrol agents between the ports of entry to claim asylum. Unused International Law we cant build a wall and bounce them off if we must allow credible asylum plans to occur in our immigration courts and a wall will channel those ports of entry. I will not prevent them from coming in first place. The wall will not help us with any of the most pressing challenges we face. Back to the 1970s, the Golden Fleece award to highlight federal wasteful spending. The ultimate Golden Fleece of american taxpayers with billions going to contractors seeking to build the wall that would provide no security benefit to the American People. Republican representative hurt puts it will. Told him what is most expensive and least effective way to secure the border. That set it up and even sadder is the effort to build the wall will divert resources way for measures that will help address the challenges at the border. Our immigration system is indeed in crisis, straining for the flow of Central Americans Asylum Seekers but we need more resources devoted to addressing this challenge and then questions ive had to give my thoughts but suffice it to say, a wall will not help nor will it make safer from terrorism and organized crime. The wall is an extremely bad idea and i Hope Congress does not support it. Thank you. Thank you guy will recognize myself for five minutes. One of the frustrating things with this issue is its been failure theater in this country for over 30 years. Mr. Judd, you mentioned it. Ms. Gibboney, will do an amnesty bill, secure the border. No more illegal immigration. Illegal immigration quadrupled between then and now in terms of the numbers that are here. 1996 we were supposed to have an entry exit visa system lamented, and thats different than this will issue but theres millions of people who come legally and oversee the visa. To this day we do not have an entry exit visa system. Then in 2006 with the support of people like secretary clinton, chuck schumer, joe biden, congress of womanly past the secure fence act which is supposed to provide 700 miles of double layered fencing in areas with it husband and its been vy effective and yet congress guided that the next year. Without it think 36 miles total. Weve got to get it right. Wed been toying with this for decades. Lets get it right and lets do it. Now, mr. Camarota, the examples of israel and san diego suggest that if you do effective fencing or wall that that could actually reduce illegal immigration much more than your estimate. Do you agree, you took a very conservative estimate about how a wall come how much illegal immigration a wall would prevent. Yes, i think it is pretty conservative. The experience with walls is they do work where they are but whether or not people tend to go around in. There are visa overstays which is a very important question. But where they are, they work quite effectively. The strain on the taxpayer, people, legally, that on medical costs that get born by the taxpayer usually . Right. That can often happen. People go to an emergency room or otherwise free clinic. At the beginning of costs. Education cost . We spend about 17,00 17,00n each child in the United States very, very roughly. There may be over 1 million Illegal Immigrants in your schools. People who come illegally dont necessarily commit crimes at a higher or lower level. I dont know if thats true but even if it is, thats tax Law Enforcement because those of the people of the board a secure Law Enforcement when you have to worry about at all, great . Perfectly reasonable. The data is all over the place on that. Its not clear whether illegals have a higher crime rate i think as weve heard today, thats not the point, is it . If someone who is not even supposed be in the country and they kill someone, that is clearly preventable. Thats what frustrates the American People so much. Your study doesnt even take into account i dont think the not economic costs associated with having a porous border and allowing illegal immigration. Drugs, human trafficking, obviously the crime as weve seen, that is not reflective at all in your study, correct . I didnt include any of the cost for the children of immigration. Theres clearly with the victims with scene, theres immense costs that go with that. So you think that your study, its probably conservative in terms of the number of illegal entries, that it could prevent but its also conservative in terms of some of the benefits because you would be talking about drugs, talked about crime, youd be talking about reducing other bad things associate with having a porous border, their . I think thats fair. A lot of these things you cant put a dollar amount on. In terms of paying for it, either ways, whether its what senator cruz suggested by taking the season drug asset money which is billions of dollars, others have said take some of the illegally obtained refundable tax credits, thats 8 billion i think, do you agree there were ways that money can be identified and used that dont necessarily involve just having the american taxpayer pay for it directly . You have mentioned to you. The others at the tax remittances that flow out of the United States, tens of billions of dollars, put attacks and and and you could generate income is a. Mr. Judd, you agree when you have areas where these barriers have been effective like san diego, obviously the bread and butter is still going to be you guys out there, but it really is a force multiplier because whatever agents can then cover a much larger territory if you do have that barrier, right . With a barrier its estimated all we need is one agent per three, four linear miles. Without a barrier i need one agent per linear mile. So the cost effectiveness of a barrier in manpower is extremely successful. We need to come we also need to look at where we have to put the wall and it will allow us to dictate where crossings take place and allows to be more effective. The secure fence act at 70 miles out of the 2000. Do you think that make sense . Is that probably enough . I do. In fact, chief patella recycle them out and said the exact same thing that i been saying for two years, that we need it in strategic locations. You are a critic of the catch and release policies of the obama administration. Its fair to say . Yes. Doing a lot of things we need to support you is important, but you can do all those things and if theres an administration in power that doesnt really have the will or tha the ties your hs behind your back, then you could have the best of intentions, it would be difficult to get his problem, right . Across the board at a point of that a port of entry, thats a crime. When we see these individuals, what we are effectively doing to the catch and release program, which are driving the criminal smuggling organizations and we are incentivizing them to allow these individuals across the board at places other than ports of entry. Every single one of these individuals could legally present themselves at a port of entry. Its the smugglers were forcing them to cross in places other than a port of entry which then puts extreme pressure on us, and it takes people out of the field which then opens up holes that allow smugglers to bring across even higher cost value traffic such as heroine and potentially even people from middle eastern countries. So its a huge problem. So you think in terms of the issues with not having a secure border, you do think drugs are coming across illegally and thats a major issue . I know they are. In fact, if we really think that more drugs are coming across at ports of entry were absolutely wrong. All you have to do is pull agent out of the field and thats what smugglers are doing by crossing his family units that are coming over here and asking for asylum. What were doing is creating holes and allowing the smugglers to bring across their higher value products, such as heroine. Ms. Gibboney, thank you for your testimony. And this is something thats very personal to you to get this border under control, correct . Absolutely. And i think you said before that you would be happy to take your own shovel and work to build it, even in the 120 heat. I wish is going was just going to say that. Yes, i would be happy to go and work on the wall myself. I know its not feasible but trust me, i will be there. And that is because you do want to see anyone else to be in your shoes someday. Never. Its such a pain. Its so difficult, especially days like today that i dont even wish it upon a guy that murdered my son. I dont wish this paint on his family. Thats how painful. I mean, you would think that i would wish him a lot of harm. I dont, but nobody should have to suffer through Something Like this. Because if my son would have been sick, i wouldve resigned myself that it was his time to go. That it was gods wishes, but my sons life was cowardly taken. And i think it also mentioned in testament, and issue will have to come in a different area i think but you arent sons murder is in prison, will eventually get out. You were worried that california may not notify i. C. E. We fed jamil shaw here whos also from california. You probably know him. Youve probably had illegal aliens involved in, i can read leased the state and then murdered his son. We had casey chadwick, her mother is here. Last year who it was a guy from haiti was illegal in the country, served his sentence for manslaughter, i think 12, 13 years, connecticut. I did not send him back. Released and then he killed casey. That will be issued think will have to get right. If you know someone who has served his sentence, they are not illegally, releasing them into society to be puts American People in great risk. I think you are rightly concerned about it we want to work with you to make sure that the states are working with i. C. E. So that were not letting dangerous people out. Ive got of my time and ill give indulgences to my friends from california and i will recognize him now. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would really, to the degree you can help us with this and your members, will be wonderful if we could get, knowing the passion involved, i dont want to do what you knew about but your original testimony to depoliticize as much as possible. Having spent a good deal of time when its in the state legislature in california researching public works projects that are socalled megaprojects, thats any project over 1 billion. They are fraught with concern summit application standpoint. Your point about where it is. So it would be my wish that perhaps theres an opportunity for us in a dispassionate, nonpartisan way, look at just the engineering and from the skewed experts, the best return on investment. In that regard it has to be at least considered where the money will come from, whether the money will come from a other parts of Homeland Security or whether it will come from nih which is equally compelling parent stories about people losing their life because we havent invested. That is an overall context. First, mr. Chairman, id like unanimous consent to enter into the record they cater report that mr. Camarota referenced. Not the most liberal organization in the world. The title report is the border wall cannot pay for itself. I would like to invent into the without objection. And ms. Gibboney, the comets about your concerns in california, having a Good Relationship and coming from california with the Governors Office and with the attorney general and other Public Safety people, we have differences of opinion, respectfully, but to the degree that is appropriate i would like to also work with the chairman to make sure that we communicate appropriate with you about the release of the perpetrator of that crime. Im happy to work with that. With the difference that we have, some differences of opinion but as appropriate i would be happy to. Mr. Stodder, you have a lot of experience in this field. As i said earlier in big public works projects can usually get and needs assessments to get risk assessments. You let the engineers do their job, tell them what the objective is, you let the experts like mr. Judd and elements agouti heather input. With your extensive experience are we at the point yet to go ahead and make a judgment that this is realizing they are dueling ideological think tanks that are offering their own perspective including some that you have an unexpected by the Cato Institute view of it . I think were in a position to know for a fact that a federal program like this will have massive cost overruns. We know that for a fact. We know that the wall, whatever the estimates, whether its 15 billion, 22 billion, 70 billion, we have no idea what he wall would actually cost. The thing that i do know is that, im with mr. Judd in the sense, i think the way to secure the border is to have the right blend of Different Things that we do, whether it be Border Patrol personnel, Technology Sensors and drones, fencing, also investigations as well. Investigations of Human Smuggling Networks and financial facilitators of those networks. You have to have a blend of all of them. The fallacy i think of the wall is to think that, this is just one size, its going to fit all. Well put a giant great wall across the southern border except for the ports of entry. Lets not forget the ports of entry and a staff accountant to the ports of entry. My comment is just to the dispassionate analysis from Law Enforcement experts, home and skewed experts and engineers. Has he been any of the Due Diligence done that you would expect not that im aware of. Its something that needs to be done. We need to focus, we need to get the pros from the Border Patrol, i. C. E. And others to think through whats the right blend any particular sector. Im not a person that would say, i am strong enforcement as the next person, i think, and it could be additional fencing is required in certain areas in strategic locations. It did a world of good in san diego certainly but i think the idea of putting a wall across the entire border i think without further deeper analysis is misguided. I have two quick quotes that are want you to respond to, both about the sentiment expressed to in these quotes in regards to illegal immigration and drug enforcement. Homeland security john kelly recently stated that a threat against aviation quote keeps me literally awake at night. Yet President Donald Trump has proposed cutting the Transportation Security Administration budget including a program that supports local police at airports. The other quote i would like to respond to is in february buys admiral charles ray of the coast guard deputy commandment, commander of operation stated quote, as result of lack of resources last year we were prevented from getting over 580 and smuggling events and the shipments made their way north. So could respond to those . Me take them in reverse order. First with the charlie ray who i know well, good guy. The idea of cutting the coast guard in order to build a wall is kind of insane because if you think about it from the perspective, we always thought in a lets agree we think by the throughput of the United States. The northern border, southern border and the caribbean border. The more we reduce the Resources Available of the coast guard, were opening ourselves up to mass migrations from haiti, cuba and also for a shift in Drug Trafficking from the current place where it is, which is the u. S. Mexican border back to the days and 1980s and 90s of of movement to the craving. We have to make sure the coast guard is adequate resource to handle our third border. With regard to tsa, in the cuts to tsa, im the first one to admit that tsa requires some evaluations to determine where it spends its money. The reduction of expenditure on the piper teams to help stat ste and local Law Enforcement not only in airports but services notation is perhaps unwise. And concluding comment, mr. Chairman. Having spent some expressed on this, its always dangerous i think for us in elected office, irrespective of party, to jump to conclusions about criminality and how to stop it. It needs to be evidencebased. We have some poppers agreements on that in other fields. I would suggest this is one of those opportunities to be driven by evidencebased research, in addition to the internet aspect of this project that is thoroughly peerreviewed. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. I ask you mens to wait on mr. Grothman from wisconsin. Hes not a member of subcommittee. Without objection to order that chair will recognize mr. Gohmert for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I have to say that during the twoweek recess i spent the whole time traveling the district, i have a very wide district, very rural. Six hours from east to west in my district in southern kentucky. I had ten tunnels and i dont many, many meetings and how many conversations with people, and the wall always came up. There is overwhelming support in my district to build a wall and thats something that people expect to get done in the very near future. I had a couple of questions first for mr. Judd. Would the border wall have mitigated the terrible Opioid Epidemic we are seeing sweep across america, especially in my role district in kentucky . It absolutely will because again, we will then dictate what illegal border crossings take place if we built the wall. How many criminal gang members have crossed into the u. S. In the past five years . Do you think the border wall could have reduced that number . I dont think it could. I know it could. When we catch these individuals that are coming here and asking for asylum, one of the biggest problems we face is when we have them in the detention facilities. They are actually recruiting while theyre in our custody, recruiting other individuals to join their gangs, and thats an extreme concern. Mr. Judd, i saw in the newspaper, the Senate Democrats assume a promo cost of 36. 6 million per mile. Do you agree with that cost estimate . Im not an expert on what the cost will be. I can just dont how effective it will be. But what i can tell you is, is that 9 11 caused the government trillions of dollars. 1 billion, thats a drop in the bucket compared to what happened on 9 11. Obviously thats a concern of every taxpayer and every person that has any type of conservatism is of the cost. When you look at the total cost, will all heirs of the southern board require new fencing as some of the opponents have claimed . It will. It will. To build a proper wall, im an advocate of fencing, and again it was a bipartisan effort that passed that here but the problem fencing is its disputable. I can bring up a welding torch and cut holes in defense. Thats what happens. I had a brother who is a Border Patrol agent who spent two years and all he did every day was patch holes in the fence. So a wall cannot be defeated the way a fence can be defeated. What other factors, i guess this is for anyone on the panel, what are the factors could have an impact on the total cost of the border wall racks are the things that can be done to build a wall cheaper to where we still have the maximum security impact . What other factors would impact the cost, or could impact the cost . Obviously one of the key question is what are the most vital areas, right . Theres parts of the board that are not likely to become major smuggling routes at least for individuals. We dont need a wall or even a lot of fencing there, maybe just a vehicle barrier. So i certainly dont think that we need a giant law across the whole border. Thats not my position. My position is that they are places where a wall and fencing barriers are vitally important, and we dont have been. We bought the rights it in. That seems crazy to me. I think thats where we should start at the very least. To address your question, one of the things that ive been impressed with, and again that this is not trying to take a political stand. Im independent myself, but one thing i have been impressed with is ive had the opportunity to meet with President Donald Trump facetoface on four occasions. I fed a telephonic cover station within specific about this issue, and one of the thinks is yes, he has come in with preconceived notion. One thing i been impressed with was as a businessman he has been willing to listen to the experts and what it had to say. What is old but decision will be i dont know. But ive had the opportunity to let them know that its not 200. Its strategic locations. And hes been open to the idea. Im hoping that, in fact, what he will go because i will try the cost way down. One thing to add to that a lot of it is, the unpredictable factor in terms of how you construct a wall like this or even fencing in areas is in financial issues, private lans can all kinds of litigation that could come out of this. We shouldnt, in any project like that, we cannot be pollyannaish about how much this will cost and how long it will take because of the other factors that can go into it. I have huge concern about the private property aspect of it so i would agree with that. My time is up. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank the gentleman. Now recognize thank you so much, mr. Chairman, and thank you for having this very important hearing. First of all, i want to just say to ms. Gibboney how sorry i am for your loss. I am the mother of three sons and i cant imagine what it would be like to not have those hugs and talks and interaction within. So im so sorry for your loss. I spent 27 years in Law Enforcement, and at the Orlando Police department. And i can tell you of the 27 year veteran, i worked my share of homicides, aggravated assaults, rapes, child molestations, kidnappings more than i care to admit. And i wish that i could have simply put up a wall to stop it, because i would have done that. A question that came up earlier, what i can also tell you without hesitation is that the overwhelming majority of the people we arrested in those cases were not undocumented immigrants. And so the Ranking Member is absolutely correct that we do, as we keep america safe, it is my number one priority. We have to be careful that we are not generalizing a Certain Group of people from a certain place. If we are committed to doing this correctly. Mr. Judd, i also want to thank you for your service. This is not a political issue. It is certainly not for me. Im going to believe that its not for you. You talked about how important effective border barriers are. And just to kind of clear up this or me and my mind, candidate trump when he talked about the wall said its going to be hard and concrete, made out of rebar and steel. And thats not the wall that you support them is that correct . Actually i absolutely support a wall that is not disputable. Again, i this wall, made out of steel, rebar and it has to be a wall that cannot be defeated by welding torches. We face that problem on a daily basis today, so yes, it has to be an impenetrable wall. Said he would support a wall that was 2000 miles no. A concrete wall no. I support a wall at strategic locations which will then allow us to dictate where illegal border crossings take place. And will use it as, who are you referring to . The United States Border Patrol. Okay. Mr. Stodder, i understand of course that you worked on border issues in the department of Homeland Security or 15 years under two administrations. Thank you so much for your service as well. You stated we have greatly improved our Border Security against the most pressing threat to Public Safety including terrorism, transnational organized crime. And we have far greater control over illegal immigration at a southwest more than any other time over the last four decades. Can you explain in more detail, i dont think we talked about it enough, how we greatly include our Border Security . Or in other words, what is change . What do we not have four decades ago that we now do . I guess what i can speak to is since when i served in the Bush Administration in the years after 9 11 and also serving in the obama administration, theres been a bipartisan consensus both administrations and of congress to strengthen border enforcement. We have tripled the size of the Border Patrol. We havent deployed sensors, aerial drones across the border. We have put fences, secure fences in a four strategic locations for the border. Our more fences need a different places . I dont doubt it but i think thats a question for the local Border Patrol sector to determine in their particular areas of responsibility what the right niche of personal, Technology Infrastructure really is. The other thing is i think i i. C. E. Has been far more effective at going after human smuggler or positions and going out of their financial facilities. Our investigative capabilities are also fairly strong. Heres the other thing i think to focus on. Number one, with regard to mexican immigration, think in terms of the anticoagulation in the United States, which is decline. Its about and let my people right now come down from a 12,000,010 years ago. Less than half of the population wishes announc announced his me. So the population is now mostly these overstays, its less than half of the mexican population and it is declining. The numbers of people come across the border now, apprehending about 4000 people at the border every year, down from 1. 69. 69 when i started back in the bushy administration after 9 11. But how those people are from Central America. Central americans are coming up and those folks whether apprehended by the Border Patrol or by the office of Field Operations at port of entry, most of those folks are claiming asylum because they are fleeing violence or they are fleeing other difficulties in Central America or the been told to do so by the smugglers. Some are legitimate, some not at all them are entitled to date of course in immigration courts if the task a credible screening and about 90 pass. What i would say is that we have become far more effective at policing the flow of people coming from mexico. Mexico has changed economically so more people are staying open to a people are coming but we still have Serious Problems and this is junk were facing now in terms of migration is Central America. That a straight a resource because claiming asylum but there are 500,000 person backlogs in her immigration courts and thats what causes us to release those folks into the United States pending their claims. So if were to spend, the first three dollars i would spend in border enforcement probably would be going towards the immigration courts come to staff the score so we can expeditiously and efficiently process asylum claims so we dont have to people in the United States for the link of five, six, seven years it takes often to process and asylum claim. That would send a message to the smugglers to say this is not a free pass to come to the United States. Achy so much. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for the additional time. I yield back. You mentioned asylum. Do you think that Congress Needs to relook at how some of the statutes operate so that we can kind of not answered by some of people to come in and make claims that are not meritorious . Its a difficult question to the way the system works is kids go, unaccompanied and had to go to the credible fear screening. They just come in. If theyre coming from Central America, not from mexico. The issue of whether credible fear should be looked at again i think its a difficult tricky question because i think the reality is, the stakes of being wrong of a u. S. Eis officer being wrong in determining summary does not have credible fear can result in certain circumstances its a liquid back to el salvador or hunters and be killed. So the stakes are high in turns out we think about the credible fear test. Having said that, i think the statistics are a people coming from el salvador and honduras to a lesser extent guatemala about 95 of them make it through credible fear screening and the immigration puts 50 let me recognize mr. Duncan for five minutes . Take initiative and thank you most of all for the great job you do during the subcommittee. Let me just say, ms. Gibboney, ive noticed that some members of congress in many of his set at night meetings try to make jokes about the wall. Its not much of a joke to you, is it . No, it is not. I dont see whats funny about it, because theyve not been affected personally. Because if they would, they would think carefully also. I wish that everybody could have heard your testimony. Ive always heard that the worst thing that can never happen to you is to outlive one of her children. Certainly you have our condolences. Let me say this. Some people imply or even say that if we try to enforce our immigration laws, its a cruel or something is wrong with it. I noticed in some of the staff material, president netanyahu of israel, he said President Donald Trump is right. I built a wall along israels southern border. Stop all illegal immigration. Great success, great idea. Somebody can do cannot be criticized but if we try to do it there something wrong with it. And also i notice a material that ive been given from the staff, even mr. Stodder said the border works in certain strategic locations. I think that makes a lot of sense to me. I know the material weve been given says that just before they built the first wall in san diego, there were 700,000, approximately 700,000 apprehensions. This last year it was down to 31,000. So a wall has been very effective there. The situation is this. Thertheres two statistics thatl the whole story. With only 4 of the worlds population, we by almost 22 of the worlds goods. We have a standard of living far beyond what anybody else has. You can understand why so many hundreds of millions, maybe even a couple of billion want to come here. And the second statistic is that 58 of people in the world have to get by on four dollars or less a day. Most people in this country dont realize how blessed we are, how fortunate we are. You can understand why so many people want to come in. We sympathize with all these people. I americans are the kindest, most generous, most sympathetic people in the world. But we simply cant open our borders and just taking everybody who wants to come because our hospitals, our jails, our sewers, our schools, our roads, our whole infrastructure, and not even mention our economy. We couldnt handle the rapid influx of people that would come here. There is no other country that faces the problem that we face to the extent that we face it. So its not cruel. Its just common sense. Mr. Camarota, the staff says is a recent National Academy of Sciences Study that estimated the net fiscal drain of each illegal crosser was 74,00 74,00d 20. Are you familiar with that study . Let me be clear. With the National Academy did was calculate the drain or physical benefit to its a very skilled by education for each immigrant. What i did was just apply that to the skill level of Illegal Immigrants to come up with an estimate, how big it would be. I took their estimates by education and look at the education of the illegals, and it comes to about 75,000 per illegal. Also we been provided with figures that the irs is paying out billions in improper payments to Illegal Immigrants every year through the use of refundable tax credits. Have you looked at that . Yes, particularly fundable position of the Child Tax Credit. They could pay that out and he did have to worry so much about illegal status. So yes, they are clearly paying hundreds of millions if not billions out to Illegal Immigrants. Theres no question. Its also the case they pay some out in the earned income tax credit, but less. Final question. Let me ask you this. For years weve seen this figure and even in the material we been given for this hearing says 11 million Illegal Immigrants. Almost everybody i talk to estimates that its way more than that. Way more. We are really probably talking 20 or 30 million, but youve studied this in detail and i havent. Tell me what you feel is the accurate or most accurate figure in that regard. Its important to recognize that it is the legal and difficult to measure there is a margin of error but if youre asking me, i think its 1012 make the could it be higher question yes. Could be but very briefly the way we arrive at a number like that as we know about how many legal immigrants there should be in the United States and they would look at the data, the Census Bureau collects the difference immigrants and it was subtracted that out and we get a residual. That number is about 10 million. So that you think maybe we are missing 10 10 based on some ofe research but it could be 20 . You can set doesnt get up to 20 million. Is the census data bureau itself could . Im going to argue just did it shows School Enrollment or look with the data shows about Birthday Party lines at with administrative data. So i think those estimates are right. Let me stop you and ask one last thing. How many millions have we allowed to immigrate here illegally over the last let say the last 50 or . A total foreignborn is about 45, 46. 2 date in going today in 2017, and about ten or 12 of that is illegal. There are about 33 million, 32 million legally, people present at the United States who are foreignborn. Some have become citizens but that total is about 30 my point is no other country in the world has even come close in allowing people to immigrate here legally as we are. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think the gentleman. Time has expired. One never recognize our guest from wisconsin for five minutes. I was going to do a follow. You are confident. How long has that 11 million figure been out there . How long if i would ask you or somebody in your position, how many people are here illegally . We think its been around that number for like eight years now. Because every year we take the American Community survey or the Current Population survey and try to estimate it. What was it in the year 2000 . I think the general estimate is somewhere around 8 million. Im not sure thats right, but okay. Im going as she got some questions as for the overall cost. Is it any estimate the metamoney where paying every year for healthcare for people who are here illegally . Do you want to count like usborn children are just the illegal immigrant . A lot of children of Illegal Immigrants a signed up for medicaid. That would be a big cost. Just give me an estimate. Several billion dollars a a year for treatment for the uninsured because the illegal population makes up a large share of the uninsured. Several billion. What, 5 billion . That would be a perfectly okay. I know its difficult to get records. Are there any estimates, the degree to which incomebased transfer payments are going to people illegally . I hear anecdotal evidence from income maintenance workers in my district that theyre getting people who are illegal come here. We have an estimate of the total amount of what we call Welfare Benefits going to people here illegally . We d did some estimates. Remember that an illegal immigrant can collect benefits on behalf of the usborn child. If we include that in those numbers certainly run tip over 10 billion dollars. If you count things like the u. S. For child and medicaid. A family can get food stamps even though the parents are illegal because the food stamps, in the name of the usborn children. So theres a lot of that going on certainly theres a lot of people even adults are signing up for benefits who may not be citizens . May not be citizens . Sure. There are a lot of legal immigrants who also access the welfare system. I could give you my estimates for those things. I dont have them in front of me but legal immigrants make extensive how the Illegal Immigrants . Yes. We know from the survey of income and Program Participation when the party will identify themselves as illegal based on some questions that more than half of all households headed by Illegal Immigrants have someone in that household signed up for some kind of benefit. Typically the noncash programs. Educate me a total amount if you throw out a number . The total amount that Illegal Immigrants are received in income transfers, cash and noncash type stuff . That would be well over 10 billion, at least, more than that. Most of it from the federal government spent most of that is going to your citizens ultimately, right . It depends on how you good. If you have a family getting food stamps, the parents can feed themselves on those food stamps. If the family lives in Public Housing because in one usborn children which is allowed, then the parents are benefiting. So depends on how you want to calculate that. Most systems dont cut off u. S. Citizen children from welfare. Thats right. Thats when they can use us programs to their usborn children. Its hard to get the numbers. Dean how many people in our criminal justice system, how may people in local jails, prisons, armed Illegal Immigrants . To have hard numbers on that . Incomplete numbers. Substantial . When i hear talking to people who run these facilities, they think its a significant situation, even in wisconsin. But do you have any estimate . Remember, but the government is paying out lots of money already duty scabbed program. That might be a place to begin to look one ship inmate okay. Ill give you caution. Do you know what the age of consent is in other countries around the world . I know its less than the u. S. I dont know spirit does anybody know what the age of consent is in mexico, for example . Mr. Stodder, youve been involved in his ear for quite a while. Do you know . I dont know the age of consent in mexico. Thats shocking. Well, obviously when were people coming from another culture, its important, they adapt to our culture. How long were you involved in this game, mr. Stodder, that you dont know that . The age of consent in mexico. Its never been presented to me to know with the age of consent is in mexico. I know the age of consent in the United States is 18. It varies from state to state but yes. 18 in some areas, 16 and others. Is it bit age 12 in parts of mexico . Do you do that as potential problem, when people come into this country, men who come into this country ever useful in any culture which of the age of consent is 12 . Should people talk about that, should people be educated about that . Whats the relevance of it . What are you driving at . I didnt i am just saying speed is from a lawenforcement standpoint, actually. What were doing is taking people into our country, people commit or country that have a different set of rules and they are trying to take the sets of rules and applied them here in the United States, when thats wrong. Again were talking about illegal acts. When i talk about illegal acts, not talk about illegal immigration. With illegal aliens come to the United States, thats why ms. Gibboney should today because his individuals come from countries that do not enforce the laws and the come to the United States and because they were allowed to break our laws they think they can break any law and they continue to perpetrate more crimes upon mr. Stodder cant figure out what you see a danger in people coming to this country who dont know what our laws are with regard to the age of consent, and they think the laws in this country are the same as the loss and other countries. For those of us who care about women and young girls, we might do that as a concern. We do. In fact, all you have to look at is what happened in the school in virginia where that young girl was raped by two illegal, to people across the border illegally who ultimately released under the catch and release program, which is why i am so anti, against the catch and release program. We see that people who break our laws will try to apply their set of rules that they brought from the country into our own country, and that creates a huge drain on Law Enforcement. Not just a physical drain but certainly on the victims. At a do want to state also that not enforcing our laws encourages more breaking of the laws. It was during down but i must warn you, we have to continue to enforce love because if you dont illegal immigration will go back up. But interesting about that is industry and how it changed. I like peoples lives may be difficult. Things havent changed. People are compelled but no other options. Imagine if we followed up to send negative judgment. Just a few things to get through, we are assaulted at a rate higher than any other line Enforcement Agency in the United States. Border crime was a huge issue. I think they mention the cartel leaders but does not mean that the cartels wasnt a major leader. When i joined 20 years ago, we had momandpop organizations. Every facet of crime was controlled by very dangerous cartels. That is starting to spill over into the United States. They didnt do that 20 years ago. Let me ask you this. You agree there clearly a number of immigrants that have a positive impact in our society. They were paying more in taxes than services but that does not describe the typical Illegal Immigrants. There is a people who are not a public charge and they have to support themselves when they come here. That is the law. Its defined in a narrow way so its not that meaningful. Youre talking about people going through unauthorized channels and the difference between the visa over versace versus the Border Crossers that have even less. They have the least education, yes. Ms. Espinoza, youve seen a variety of issues for these tragedies over many years and been an activist. Can you crystallize for us the importance of this issue and how it affects some of the human lives that youve been able to work with over these years. Yes, thank you. What troubles this most is that all of these crimes are preventable and we only deal with the killings of americans but child molestation and rape is very high as well. You can see stats in North Carolina and was also very troubling is the fact that our own victims, american victims are misguided through the system. Agnes was not allowed to given victims impact statement. Securing the border and enforcing laws, i am for border wall just like mr. Judd. You agree with most of the witnesses, you dont need to do a 2000mile wall, you basically do in areas where you can stop the crossing. Absolutely. Yes, sir, thats common sense. I do not want this issue to be politicized. Im a former democrat. My father was born in mexico. I have been in Strawberry Fields since i was eight years old. This is not applicable issue. My husband and i started this remembrance project, we looked at the issue. It was about an officer in Houston Texas who was shot by an illegal alien and there was a lawsuit brought against the city by his widow who is also a police officer. That was about sanctuary cities. Never heard of it before. We were not political, and here we are and again, i just stressed, look at the issue, not politicize american lives. We have seen so much and appreciate your time. I just cant tell you how much, if you look at the issue and focus on keeping americans safe. Thank you. I recognize my friend from california. Thank you. I want to thank everyone here including all of the witnesses. I am more taken by the fact that a lot of what we are dealing with is symptoms of a larger problem. That is for this country and for this congress to come up with Immigration Reform. It differentiates us from every other section in the world. I just want to leave one quote because many years ago in congress, across the other side of the aisle, everyone is allowed their own opinions but not the own facts. For some reason we have entered into a time where its alternative facts or not, we fact we fight opinions, period. I think we could get to the point where the chairman started this committee which is our failure to come up with an immigration policy thats effective and allows people to come here and have opportunitie opportunities, but we need to protect the citizens who are here and enable those incoming to flourish. I want to get into one quote of dueling perspectives. This is a New York Times article that was quoted by the majority staff. He went on to say, there are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics there isnt much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists agree that immigrants dont benefit the overall economy and that is not controversial. He goes on to quote from heidi from the National Institute that on consensus average families are increased by a small but positive amount when an amount comes from immigration. In my comments, maybe this is an opportunity in this relatively poorly attended hearing that all of us could focus on a real issue and recognize that immigration is a great benefit to this country and is a basis of this country success. In california, there is plenty of research that shows the reason we are the selective economy is because we have the most diversity and most reflective of the global economy. We have to get policy right so i think you and hope this is an opening of a new chapter in a bipartisan effort to put our efforts were its most effective. I think the gentleman. The chair recognizes the gentleman from georgia for five minutes. Thank you. I may begin with you. How did the construction of the multi border fence impact illegal entry into the area. It moved it over to tucson arizona. What i can tell you is everywhere we have built a fence we have been effective in controlling illegal immigration that then allows me to be more effective in the number of illegal aliens i take into custody. Do you have any idea how many apprehensive there have been, the difference from before the wall was built in san diego. High watermark was the late 90s and san diego was a busy place. After the fences were built, immigration dropped in almost nothing in san diego and it moved to the locations where there werent physical barrier. Let me give you some figures i found and you can verify this for me. We seen, in 1996, prior to, prior to the barrier, there were 480,000 there were 4000 apprehensiv4000 apprehensions. There was a 93 decrease. That is largely due to the enforcement posture which we took in san diego. Unfortunately we didnt take that same posture in the other sectors like tucson arizona so we drove everything out there. Since we have been. I realize we cant quantify the effectiveness totally with the layered wall but theres no doubt the correlations have dropped drastically, over 93 since it was put in place. What in place. What other measures have been taken in san diego. We promise that anyone who crossed the border, we would detain them and keep them in custody until they have their deportation hearing as opposed to other locations where we put them into custody, we would end up walking them out our door and letting them go and hope that they would show up for their immigration hearing down the road. Anybody across to the core door, we would put them through deportation hearing. Do you believe a border wall would help address the issue of human trafficking. Yes, as mr. Judd was saying, fencing barriers in key places could make a very enormous difference. Have these discussions come up in discussions with the southwest border, specifically with the issue of human trafficking. Yes, many of them said they believe it will be helpful. So it will help in many individuals whether its illegal crossing or drug and human trafficking, you believe it would hel be helpful. I believe it would be very helpful. What other kind of technologies do you think would be implemented in addition to a physical barrier . First and foremost, i worked in the busiest sector which was the tucson sector. Individually i iran a team of agents. We were arresting 100 illegal aliens a night. That was a team of five to six to six individuals, 100 people. Night. Those people that we were arresting, 300 people were getting away from us, simply because thats the number of people coming across. When when we started deploying the technology such as drones and more sensors, better scope trucks that had radar on them, when we started deploying that and we became more effective, what we did was we shifted the illegal immigration to other places that didnt have that. What i am going to tell you is that has to to be comprehensive because we cant just continue to shift the burden to different sectors. I get that, but youre talking drones to virtual walls and all of the above are necessary. They all work. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I yield my time. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony, very much appreciated. A couple things, we are not talking about a 2000mile wall , it will be basically finishing the job of the 2006 act and those are important factors that can be a significant multiplier. Reducing the the flow can reduce burdens on taxpayers on the backend and can reduce crime. We have stories to tell him they need to be told. We have to do better. This committee will monitor the cost of this thing. We dont want to waste money, but im convinced it can be done creatively where you are not just appropriating money but actually using some of the money that is seized or some of the other programs that are clearly running amok and diverting money, that was probably a better way to do it. I think mr. Judd, physical security is just one point but we have to have good policy to make sure people know the law will be enforced and we have to deal with people who are convicted and released back into society. We cannot allow additional crimes to be committed at that point and weve seen it time and time again. I appreciate everybodys time and testimony and this will be an issue that the committee will continue to deal with. Thank you, and with that this hearing stands adjourned. [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] be with us this afternoon when the Heritage Foundation hosts a discussion against the fight against isis and whether congress should pass an authorization for use of military force. Specifically for the efforts. Live coverage starts at 1230 eastern on cspan two. The. The Brookings Institution will host a discussion on the potential benefits of expanding the Child Tax Credit into a universal child allowance. Coverage of that event begins at one pm eastern. That will be my companion network cspan three. Sean spicer will brief reporters today, scheduled scheduled to start at 130 eastern, we will bring you that on cspan2 when it gets underway. King live at at the u. S. Capitol where the house and senate are in session, the house dabbling in at 2 00 p. M. Eastern for legislative work. The Senate Starts its day at three pm. The senate will continue work on the nomination of jake layton to join the securities and exchange commission. About to move that forward is set for 530 eastern. Off the floor, bipartisan agreement to fund the federal agreement for the rest of the fiscal year was reached over the weekend. We expect that to make it to the floor this week. We have the text of the bill online. Go to cspan. Org and click on the link in the upper left corner. Fcc chairman reverse suggested reversing the regulations on the internet. Earlier today i shared with my proposal to reverse the mistake of title ii. We should return to the Regulatory Framework that served our nation so well during the clinton administration, the Bush Administration and the first