Transcripts For CSPAN3 30 20240703

National organizations held a meeting in San Francisco so that we could be a part of the around prop 187 and see some of the and the organizer thing firsthand. So that was a really important part of my the early part of my career. And its coming full circle now today. And of course, the ripples prop 187 have been felt throughout the last 30 years, throughout my entire career. Today we have a really distinguished of panelists who are here to discuss prop 187 and its aftermath. Im going to introduce everybody very briefly here to my left, we have gustavo arellano. Hes columnist at the los angeles times, where he covers politics and issues in Southern California. He previously wrote a column called, ask a mexican, and that is also a book now. Correct. And hes also the author of taco usa how mexican conquered america. Next, we have veronica terriquez. She is a professor in the department of chicano and Central American studies, and she is a director of the Chicano Studies Research center at ucla. Her research focuses on inequality and immigrant or incorporation as well as transitions to adulthood. Next. Next to her, we have kevin johnson, who is the dean and may be a policy professor of Public Interest law and professor of chicano at university of california, davis. Dean johnson is an expert on immigration and Critical Race Theory and has published extensively these issues. Next, we have sarah coleman, an assistant professor of history at texas university, where her focus is on immigration, race and rights the 20th century. She is the author of the walls within, which discusses immigrant rights. After 1965 and then last but not least, we have rigoberto rodriguez. He is an associate at california state university, long beach in the chicano and latino studies department, and he focuses on latino immigration and integration. So thank you all for being here today. I want this to be a true roundtable conference session. We are going to im going to start by posing couple of questions. And i want the panelists to engage in conversation each other and with all of you, of course, as well. So were going to start with background. Im always shocked when my students dont know about proposition 187 and it makes me feel very old. And so lets just get started with some basic facts. What is proposition . What is what . 97 . What was it . What are we talking about . And im going to turn to kevin to kind of kick us off with some facts. Thank you very much, john. Yes. Okay. Good. Thanks, michel, for that kind of introduction. Ill be very brief. I have to say that its always dangerous. Giving a microphone to a lawyer. And so but i promise to try to be short promises when 87 in some ways when it was one of the immigration milestone ones of the 20th century and is still having lasting impacts in november 1994, california voters. After your campaign, im sure well hear about passed by a 2 to 1 margin a strict antiimmigrant law after. But i would characterize as a very racist campaign. It passed by a 2 to 1 margin with latinos. The measure by a 3 to 1 margin. Lawsuits immediately were shot filed, challenging the constitutionality of proposition 27. And some of the lawsuits were filed just a few blocks away in spring street. The old federal courthouse still. A federal judge mariana belzer since passed away. She entered an injunction barring most of the proposition going into effect and ultimately the proposition 27 for the most part did not go into. It was it was later. The litigation challenging it was later with a new democratic governor, somebody who replaced republican governor pete wilson came into office. Now, one of the odd things about the prop 187 litigation is that while many people thought that it was a racist initiative, the federal Court Decision and the ruling that it was uncosted official didnt focus on race all. Rather, it found the federal government, not the states had exclusive authority to regulate immigration and who admit into the country and who to deport from the country into the state of california didnt have that power. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it that you want a 50 state system of uniform admissions and removal requirements as opposed to different states having their own immigration policies for for me, you could imagine kinds of mischief being conducted if states were allowed to have their own immigration policies. And we may see we see some of that today. Now, the battle over federal and state power continues today. And im sure well talk about it in a little bit. But, you know, the legal legacy of proposition 27 is actually incredible. And well probably talk about that in a bit. Many states followed, prop 27 later on. It hit alabama, georgia, South Carolina. In the 21st century. It affected federal Immigration Reform in 1996, in a major way. And it continues to have a big impact on how we look at immigration in immigration law. Let me stop there. Thanks so much, rigo. I know you also here in california in 1994. Would you like to talk a little bit about your experience and what you take from that . Sure. So i want to say, im not a historian. And in fact, so much of my native historian that when i came today, i actually got to the biltmore first and i saw a lot of folks dressed in russell gear. So it turned and i thought, wow, historians must dress interestingly. Turns out it was wrestlecon i was at. But i thought. Okay, so do you have more of a geographer by training. But at that time in 1990 394 i was living santa ana Orange County, which is the birthplace of 187. And i just want to share reflections around what it felt like at point. And then in the dialog we can expand. But i was in a nonprofit that basically served mexican immigrants who were still coming to the nonprofit after 1986. Erika and regularizing their status and all of that. And when in 1993, we started to about the collection of signatures was to qualify the ballot. A number of us started getting together. The sister of saint joseph formed a Political Action committee at that point in Orange County, pumped in about 75 grand. I was appointed. I was 20 midtwenties. I was appointed as the treasurer of that campaign. We hired some folks, conducted focus groups to see like what would help us decrease the of folks who would vote in favor of it or at least keep them from voting. So what kevin was saying around a 2 to 1, thats what we discover when we were interviewing folks, the whole conservative ideology of law and order values, all of that was so deeply entrenched. So we developed these scripts where we werent opposing the dominant ideology. We were just, all right, if you if you assume that immigration is an issue, this is the way to vote, this is actually going to bring in government more into your life. So we were trying to flip the conservative script and i think the reflection i have is just how deeply, deeply embedded this it was really a hegemonic ideology at that point and an Orange County the kind of the power block of you know Dana Rohrabacher or bob dornan, scott barr, who in Orange County, along with folks in san diego, were pete wilson, comes from really dominated the Republican Party politics at the state level. And so really the reflection i have to start with is really where we were at that point and not that weve changed but ill give some reflections around maybe shifts that have occurred, certainly at the state level, maybe not so much at the national level, but at the state level and the local level. Some changes that i think are occurring or have occurred that might signal some shifts and possibilities. So thank you. Do you have anything you would like to add about the origins or the Campaign Around prop one . Yeah. I was a sophomore high school, anaheim high when 187 and was through the campaign because that was november of 94. And i remember i had clue about it until someone on a group of white teenager, you know, yeah, white teens yelled at me. 187 and i had no idea what that meant. I go to my home and i see on Channel Nine News walkouts, protest and people talking about that. And i just remember being perplexed why would anyone be against undocumented immigrants . My dad was one. A lot of my friends were undocumented. A lot of my cousins that was born in the United States and it was just it was a question that always me as i went, you know, as i became an adult and i became a reporter, its something that always haunted me. So i ended up doing a podcast actually called this is california the battle of 187 you could find it on Itunes Spotify wherever you get your podcasts. But for me you i ended up partly because of that wont get too much to my story right now but partly that haunting the idea of racism haunted me professionally, academically and through the rest of my life. And i that my career to writing about especially those Hidden History and especially really wrestling with in Orange County that the rest of the country either knows the real housewives of Orange County or the political like, you know, reagan, this is the land where all the good republicans go to. You mentioned, you know, dornan and all those people. Yes. Its like the the the whack jobs of the whack jobs of Republican Party politics for decades right. Until donald trump came from Orange County in 187. Was that manifestation. It was the explosion of all that. So i just for me when it and looking back and all this one lady i know were going to talk about this but i now tell people 187 was one of the most interesting double edged sword ever discover, because on one hand, it as chicano generation was sort of petering out, you had the what i would call the immigrant generation, people like myself were children of mexican immigrants who had no ties at all to Chicano Movement and came the values, the conservative values of, you know, ranchers of Like Northern and central mexico. So im talking about jalisco michoacan, zacatecas, especially where my my parents are from to all of a sudden be told that youre you dont belong here radicalized that generation radicalized that generation and brought back Chicano Movement. The republicans were this close to making mexicanamericans hispanics once and for all. And they blew it. But at the same time though, going to kevin was talking about it also inspired the xenophobes across the United States to replicate the 187 model sb 1070 in arizona, alabama. And you had the direct connection in between 187 and donald trump going to the white house to the point where at a notorious rally in phenix, there was a woman named cathy words, whose son got killed after someone in in Orange County in sacramento. There was a brawl between teens, latino teens and mostly white teens in a beach town called san clemente. Someone threw a paint roller that went through the brain of steve and that was literally xray of steve woods, a paint roller through his head was used at these 87 rallies where he you had cathie woods talking about that and saying if unchecked migration comes to the United States the way it did in california, this is whats going to happen to you. So that to me, thats what 87 is, its Orange Countys revenge. So this is already fascinating. Weve talked to you know, weve heard the name pete wilson weve been talking about republicans. Several people have mentioned this was a very racist campaign. Can we just talk about that a little bit more . Who was supportive of prop 187, who oppose it . What happened to jenny . Who wants to jump in . Someone who has not talked yet that anything go go ahead. Okay. I mean, theres theres a theres a Large Coalition, both for. Im sorry. Thank you. Theres a Large Coalition for and against it. But i think its also important to remember the larger state politics theyre going on that time. Right. So we have a Gubernatorial Race going on between wilson and brown. We have a senate going on between feinstein and michael. Congressman michael huffington. Right. So you have sort of a campaign about this proposition and then you have these two incredibly tight statewide campaigns and the way they sort of play into each other is sort of a really interesting right in the sense each of them, each of these candidates in in the the feinstein huffington race. Right. Theres a real debate with it for dianne feinstein. Right. As to what position to take on this. Right. Shes really struggling with this issue and she ends up coming up coming against proposition one, 87. But she sort of frames it very much of trying to appeal to this sort of Orange County taxpayer thing. Right she says basically, what is the impact of it . The reason you should oppose it is not because of sort of the vast sort of racism, but because of the tax impact. It would have on the state. So just thinking about the ways in which shes sort of even in the Democratic Party, right, really. Hedges that political response at the moment. And im happy to walk through the different, but i feel like there are other ill just jump in with specifically with pete wilson. Pete wilson this was the uc senator before he became governor of california and before that he was mayor of san diego. And he had a reputation as being a relative moderate, as moderate as a republican could be. In 1980s, reagan but when it came to the issue of undocumented immigrants in san diego had actually had coalitions with some of the chicano groups in the area. He had actually told his Police Department when he was hearing stories of coyotes exploiting and even raping women, he had San Diego Police officers go down to the border, try to help out. But he had in midnight, early nineties, california, this was a state with a recession. You are starting to see people leave the state. The more things change and was way behind on the polls when you said brown it was kathleen brown, the daughter of pat brown, former governor of california, and the brother of jerry brown. He was losing. He losing badly. Then this one, lady seven starts bubbling up. And at first the Republican Party was like they were just sad. These are just crazies, know forbes no way is this going to happen. But once it once it was able to qualify, pete wilson hitched his sinking ship on to 187. I was able to sail to a very easy victory victory. I could say a few words about the other, the coalition on the other side that emerged so proposition one, 87 occurred at a very interesting time. It happened after what people call the l. A. Riots and the l. A. Riots or l. A. Uprising. Some people call it brought together a coalition of, africanamerican, latino and some Asian Americans that were starting to realize that they were having common interests and common goals at the same time, there was a growing Labor Movement that included a lot of immigrant states. And proposition 187 brought those groups together in opposition to the initiative. There were this was an important moment when africanamerican and asianamerican and latino communities felt like they were attacked. Being under attack, a Labor Movement that had a lot of undocumented immigrants felt like they were under attack. And so the coalitions that emerge in places like los and the bay area were critical to developing a Larger Movement that emerged throughout the rest of the 1990s and expanded and really changed the politics cool landscape in the state of california, if i could add, just a little bit, i agree with all thats been said. I just want to highlight sort of the racist nature of the campaign favor of proposition 27. You had pete running for governor and as gustavo said, in latching his his campaign on to prop 187, running a sort of pseudo documentary type of saying they keep coming and showing sort of grainy pictures of the border. I thought its on youtube and, you know, they dont have to say who they are, but you get the distinct idea who they are when see the pictures of people, migrants on the border, you have a supporter, actually one of the cosponsors of prop 187, ron prince, who says, you know, when hes you know, s. O. S. Is the posse. Save our state is the name of the initiative. You know, actually, you are the posse. S. O. S. Is the group, you know, sort of ideas of lynching which is, sadly enough, popular this state, as well as many others while back. You have another supporter from Orange County, barbara coe, saying, you know, these arent shiny faced. You know, people, shiny faced kids, theyre theyre theyre little efforts. And you have a whole campaign. And i want to emphasize 11. I know Orange County was sort of perhaps the epicenter of a lot of antisemitic sentiment. But this this proposition gained the support of californians all over the state, including many, many of the latinos voting voted in favor of it. So its its not just Orange County thing, but part. What what was tapped into was this general fear, concern. And sadly, in my estimation, mexican immigrants. I can really quickly put it in the context of california history. 1994 as proposition one, 87, 1996 is proposition 209, which bans affirmative action in california. Public education in 1998 is proposition 227, which outlawed bilingual education in california. So 94 187. It wasnt just anger against mexican. So anger at the modern day california, one of a diverse california, one that we know today. And and then came proposition 21, which was juvenile justice initiative. And so what was really interesting is that there was a criminalization of immigrants coming alongside the criminalized asian of youth of color and that created an interesting moment once again for Coalition Building where young people in particular were realizing that they were being criminalized. Either its immigrants or as young people of color. And so like gustavo was talking about this, there was this generation of young people that were politicized this politicization occurred in the context often of multiracial solidarity because there was organizing in African American communities. Asianamerican organized things started emerging and. So it became very to the history of california. What happened afterwards, where we do see a Multiracial Coalition. And im glad that we continued our mentioning names like barbara crow and brings up trauma, ptsd. But im glad that we are connecting both immigration with justice systems because. This is the laying out of a new level of what later we call criminal, the convergence of both criminal justice and immigration. Thats very punitive. And so i do locate in these years this decade of the nineties the again convergence of this policy. And im glad that also youre also connecting to the emergence of the kinds of Multiracial Coalitions. Right. Because it could have just been a coalition like sheila and the coalition of humane immigrant rights of l. A. And just immigration, but it was really a Multiracial Coalition that i think now is look at the city of l. A. , bass, mayor bass. Right. And the kind of coalition that brought her to victory. Same thing with the county of l. A. Super. You know, holly mitchell, hilda and others are now possible due to those coalitions. Labor and Multiracial Coalitions that also uplift immigration. A critical issue in all policy conversations. And that coalition went beyond california of i mentioned that the National Immigrant Rights Groups were involved. I imagine national antiimmigrant groups also poured money and and effort into california just anybody want to elaborate a little bit more on how prop 187 kind of went national. Could offer a little really . Um, california and historically has been a trendsetter later in the nation when it comes to immigration in the 1800s it was an effort to exclude the chinese and many laws were passed by the California Legislature to exclude the chinese and later the supreme held that those laws were were intruding on federal power. So Congress Passed the chinese exclusion act barring chinese immigration to the United States. For the most part. And california was also trendsetter with proposition 187. And it you know, it energized a base and is is is gustavo mentioned you you see the same themes it could have been the same playbook that trump used as governor used previously. But you see in like alabama, georgia, arizona. And arizona is one of the especially interesting ones where latino population been rising. Latino political power has been been increasing. And then you see, you know, 1070, uh, passed by Arizona Legislature was very similar to prop 187 not all that different when it kicked under kids at well didnt quite invent would it required the police to check the immigration status of of anybody they came into contact with in encouraging racial profiling. It would required keeping numbers of how many undocumented students were in the Public Schools in arizona, all kinds of things, just like prop one, 87. So for better or worse, california was a trendsetter in that way. And there are a lot copycats. There still are copycat initiatives. And there were a whole series of other laws in the early 1990s that later were copied in other, for example, california decided in early 1990 think was 1993 to bar undocumented securing a drivers license other states started started copying that some states still have that is the rule and truth of the matter is is a Public Safety it makes no sense whatsoever to bar any bodies driving on our roads from having a drivers license. In fact benefits everybody to have people licensed and insured hopefully driving on the highways. But this sort of hatred is this mean spiritedness towards immigrants really took hold in california but also sadly enough across the United States. And i thought wrongly enough that before donald trump that maybe we were entering into a better place. People are a little bit more sensible when it comes immigration and i was and im not usually an optimist but i was dead dead wrong, hundred percent wrong because the meanness and a horrible talk immigrants that we saw in that are very similar to the talk about the chinese in the 1800s. Sara i know you want to just i just meant in the sense that i mean, i think one of the things that kevin has raised quite rightly, is that as a model for other states. But i think also important to sort of point out the that what happens in california becomes a model for the federal government. So right after the 94 election and the Clinton White house remember to keep in mind clinton had won california not with a plurality. Hed won it with 46 of the vote. Hed ross perot had taken about 20 . So inside the Clinton White house, you can see that theyre quite concerned whats going on in california. And after they see what happens in prop 187, you see these internal memos where theyre saying were taking gratuitous hits on immigration. We need to start shifting to a new democrat solution and you start to see that take, you know, what happens in california changes, the national debate, right. Its not just going to other states that are modeling what california does. The National Government starts to take the National Sort of policy front, starts to shift and you start to see things like ira is part of it. Right. But the clinton, for example, even in a less direct way, were having an ongoing reform debate in the United States until 1993. You look through the early clinton documents, theres no of immigrants access to welfare and any part of clintons welfare reform plan. Then prop 187 passes right. The new the new plan that the Clinton Administration sort of unveils like the next spring. Right. Reducing immigrants access to Welfare Benefits now fund 40 of the clinton welfare plan. Right. So it has this not does it sort of impact states in the sense that its sort of creating this sort of model for a state level initiative, but its also actually pushing federal policy in some very distinct ways. And the years after after the passage of one of the seven. You want to add something . No. Regan, did you want to add something . I guess what sarah has picking up on at the democrat level at the federal government is kind of what we were experiencing. We were phone calling, trying to figure out the script and. We noticed we chose not to just target we chose to target democrats, too, because of powerfully held that those views were so i imagine that at the Clinton Administration level they were feeling gratuitous hits across and republican. Im assuming that because at local level it was when welfare passed as well as in the era because both happened at the same time same year. The same folks that were coming to us in the Nonprofit Organization for services were also asking us questions about whether they could access. At that time it was afdc. It got shifted to tanev and so forth. So those shifts were really, really severe, restrictive, and it on when you passed a 2001 Homeland Security and so forth and border military. So the i think the policy was was very stark. By 1996 at the federal level. And i dont think since then weve actually been able to dismantle that weve had little wins, but not like doca for example, but not a dismantling that structure. I think where might be happening is more at the state level and certainly in california. Id like to comment on that in a second because i think there are some elements in California Law that might be helpful for us to track as an alternative but not to be too optimistic either. Kevin so to add one thing, its not just influencing the Democratic Party at the national level. This is Newt Gingrich comes to power and we see a massive shift in this moment within the party. Right. And you see gingrich start something called the Speakers Coalition are the Speakers Committee on Immigration Reform or something that and he staffs it over to thirds with california congressmen who have been in proposition 187. Right. So on both sides of the aisle, its sort of really what california is doing becomes a model. As well. So lets talk a little bit about california. I know several you want to talk about that and how did this kind of shift the ground in california . Yeah, right now, when we think about california, dont think of it as this rabid republican antiimmigrant state. Right. So what did proposition 187 have to do with with changes in california . Well, 187 was the obituary for Republican Party in california on the statewide level no statewide has won. I wasnt. Was it Steve Poizner or somebody, but its basically been more than a decade now with what we call you know, you can have the candidates from the same party be in the general election. Its democrats all the way. The california has been has had a super majority in the state assembly and state senate now for well six years or something so theyre the ones and these are all for the most part politicians who were College Students or in high school during the 187 era got radicalized and have basically made it a point with these Multiracial Coalitions to say never again. Were going to turn california into a sanctuary state. Were going to turn were going to allow drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants. They were able to repeal bilingual education. So bilingual education is alive again. But also california will astound you and surprise you. In 2020, there was a Ballot Initiative try to repeal affirmative action that went nowhere. Latinos, i think for the most part, i think they voted against it at end. And its an echo effect in california. Theres still going to be those redoubts again, orange who you know, huntington beach, los alamitos, seal beach, a couple of years they started trying to sue the state of california over the sanctuary policy. And now of course, were talking earlier about how our students dont know what 187 is. You also have a generation of latinos who grew up knowing about these battles. And so now youre slowly starting to see and inching back of latinos voting republican and not totally forgetting what the Republican Party because they hear the rhetoric of donald trump saying against bad old brays and invaders and look at themselves and say, well, were not them now. And and sad to say because especially a lot of migrants are now on the border is no longer historically mexican its central caribbean and south american and the mexicanos say. Theyre not us so why should we stand with them so is why its so important to know about 187 get this history, especially of that Cross Coalition in so connected to what gustavo just mentioned ill mention a couple of other more pieces of legislation think one is a b hundred, which is the ethnic studies High School Graduation requirement which then enables School Systems to actually include that history in the history books. And im a School Board Member in santa ana, which is the 11th Largest School district in the state of california. And so through that kind of vehicle, were trying make sure that the curriculum actually includes this kind of history, even though, of course, theres pushback. I see coachella over here. Theres also ab 1460, which is the csu graduation requirement for ethnic studies as well. So i think you know gramsci distinguishes between word maneuver and work position. I think were trying to use our position now to really make sure that our curriculum does this heavy lifting for us. Theres also the medical expansion for undocumented families now in and we can go on, but theres also the local control funding formula which through jerry brown. We went from just a per pupil funding across the board to concentration in supplemental dollars for every child who is a foster student, low socioeconomic and english learner. Right and so thats a more equity driven funding formula. So theres these developments, i think, in subsequent that i think are pushing the boundary in San Francisco at the local, local level, 2014 voted to allow a parent regardless of immigration status to actually vote School District election ends. Right so theres these signs and signals there that i think if we map them out can enable us to develop a blueprint for action policy wise. I in this state take a step back on the blueprint and the organize think process that allowed some of these more progressive, prowomen initiatives to at least make it on the ballot. So as gustavo had said in 1994, there was this generation of mexicanamericans whose parents were immigrant who were not politicized and, proper session 187, just a some people say awaken the sleeping. Im not sure if thats the right analogy, but there were there a large cohort of young people who were highly politicized, went into elected office and some joined more grassroots groups like chile, la, like the Labor Movement, other grassroots youth organizing groups that came out of a lot of the 1994 organizing and in the rest of the nineties, groups were largely on the defensive. Proposition 209 against the ended affirmative action to 27 that ended bilingual education as knew it at that time, were really kind of battles fought on the defense. But in that time there was a lot organizing that sought. Think. First, make sure that people becoming citizens, and secondly, making sure that people turned out to vote. And so by the early, you know, 2000, mid 2000 as the state legislature started switching, what was happening on the ground at the local level, also began began to transform. And so the coalition, it started, you know, really started coming into being in the nineties, really expanded across state. So then we started seeing them in places like the Central Valley in the inland empire. And so there was this larger that largely grew of the Los Angeles Area and the bay area that kind of spreads the other thing that happened is in stepping back a little bit is that the Civil Movement got reintroduced to a new generation that wasnt here. And so some of the organized tactics, some of the the movement kind of strategies were adopted and reinterpreted, rooted by a Younger Generation that then passed them on the genxers, passed them on to, you know, the undocumented Youth Movement. And then more recently the organizing that occurred in response to, the george killing of george floyd and all the Police Killings that occurred even here in california. So theres this kind of institutional memory that got passed on and it was facilitated the institutional memory of organizing that was facilitated by prop 187 and allows for kind of a learning of organizing strategies. And so my research looks at youth in the 20 tens and the critical lesson in some in statewide organizing. I saw this happen and again was a lesson of prop 87 being taught to a Younger Generation of people who are trying to get out the vote. Its the what goes wrong when dont vote. If i could just offer a footnote i agree with all of that. But one of the things we see led to the ability to exercise political power among latinos was the naturalization rates dramatically after the passage when 87 you had about 68,000 people in california naturalize in 1993. By 1996, you have a half million a year naturalizing and i dont want to say a Sleeping Giant was awakened, but there was a wake call of some sort that, you know, if you wanted to stop political punishment like weve seen with prop 187, you had to become politically involved in that that was you know, you see increasing naturalization rates. You see a legislature that has become increasing latino wear today. Its about 20 latino, which in 1992 is 0 latino. Things changed. And in the we just heard some activists like Kevin De Leon became energized by 27 and pursued a political career in part in response to that that agitation. So as youre talking with political scientist in me, is going to come out. I struck by the fact that this was Ballot Initiative. Right. And and that thats different from legislation. And im curious what you have to say about Ballot Initiatives in, california in general. How does that affect the organizing around the coalitions that form the activism . How would prop 187 have passed as a law in the California Legislature, for example . No. Now, because i thought it was already a democratic majority in state legislature. I mean, willie brown, speaker of the house for, what, 20 some years from the seventies up until the nineties and after 187, though, again, it was a revolt of the because the republicans were able to take over the house in 1996. A gentleman from Orange County, curt pringle, he became speaker of the house for two years, but especially those of you who are not from california, we this weird little thing called the Ballot Initiative. And if youre from california, you think every state has Ballot Initiatives and i guess you dont but basically if you get enough signal you could put almost anything up to a vote of the people so you could have a liberal state senate, liberal legislature. But the you know the voters might be conservative. Those conservatives will vote whatever. And thats why you had, you know, 18729227 even in the eighties, you had i cant remember the name of the proposition, but a precursor to it it made english the official language of. California before that in the seventies it was prop 13, which limits limited property taxes, which effectively starve the public of its money in the sixties you had california had a proposition. I cannot remember the the the number of it, but it repealed rumford fair housing act, which basically you had a proposition which legalized housing segregation for renting again in california. So it is the it is. And then, of course, 2008 we had what was it . Proposition was it, proposition eight to ban gay marriage. So so the voter in california we could get weird sometimes even in this most liberal of states now we could still get very and not in a good way because of my question for you since you track lot of this stuff is have you seen have you seen any shifts like proposition eight was defeated. Right. So as proposition eight was. Im sorry. Im sorry. I make this is im asking you. Its like, have you seen any like where the propositions are barometers for political leanings over time in california. Yeah i mean a lot of it i see as last gasps 187 was the last gasp. 209 2 to 7 prop 13 was sort of i dont know. I wouldnt say. Prop 13 was a last gasp because who say, oh, lower taxes will be fine, but i was very struck by again they try to bring back affirming of action in Public Education and. The voters in california said no and, you know, i think across the board, i because i wrote a column right before, but i think latinos also against it. So does that then show that california is not as progressive state as we may be and i would say so. I mean, it depends what the pockets are. Los angeles. I mean, look at what happened to karen bass. Although rick caruso, 50 of latino vote. So i always as a reporter, as specifically as a columnist im always wary of trying paint us as being in a progressive paradise because i also believe in the dna and dna in california, we are one of the most racist states ever in this country. I mean, we were the state that trashed White American citizens in the names of okies . I mean, we literally put a barrier out in basel, said, you know, bombs okies come. Thats how racist we are. Well, on that note, im really low and it really did. Thats why we have to own it. Thats why ethnic studies are so important. Because thats what i because, i do a lot of talking about, you know, to High School Classes and i say, look, you have know all of our histories. You cant just say, oh, it just has to be chicano history. Like in fresno, armenians were red line. You know, armenians were not able to buy houses in in white neighborhoods, were not able to buy houses. Asians were not able to buy houses. And if we all know this history, that just makes us that much stronger to make sure that we dont repeat those errors of the past. So i want to open up this conversation to all of you who have been listening so patiently. Anybody have a question or a comment for one of our panelists . Go ahead, hi, everybody. Thank you for wondering if if oh, if you can stand at the microphone, please. Im sorry. This is for cspan two. So im wondering if the panelists can comment if they dont have 27 outside of l. A. And, San Francisco. So thinking about the Central Valley, i know that professor etiquette was comment on that a bit, but does anyone know much whats going on . Like an imperial valley, Central Valley, Salinas Valley and so forth during this time period and. I think the proposition one, 87 one about every in the state and in part all kinds of reasons for that. Im not a political scientist, but it was heavily supported in in among anglos and latinos werent a huge voting power at the time. And, you know, a variety of, some would say, Voter Suppression techniques were, you know, pursued as well as is in many elections in places like imperial county, for example. But it had incredible support. Well, when we talk about the organized things, especially on the youth level, in my podcast i talked to hes now a principal i think hes at saddleback but he there was a gentleman who was a high schooler and he went a long standing High School Youth conference called the california Youth Leadership project. And they meet every year in sacramento, chicano, from all across the state. And thats where they found out about 187. And all these High Schoolers, they started okay how are we going to organize against it . So in salinas in the valley, you know, which valley are you talking about . Salinas, imperial central san gabriel, all of them all across. You had High School Walkouts by these students coming out and a lot of those High Schoolers ended up becoming local, state and some Even National leaders as well. Other questions, please use the microphone. Go ahead. Think you talked a bit about the diffusion of one of these policies to other states and have a question about a negative case of a policy that didnt diffuse. And that is the fact that in texas, George W Bush there was a strong republican backlash in that state against some kind of 187 like policy. Obviously, things have changed a lot in texas since then. Is that just a personality or is there some kind of structural explanation that we can offer for the case. That. Im not familiar with . Texas. I think its fair to say that within the Republican Party there are sort of two distinct strands of thought about immigration. One is the donald trump variety. Another is the sort of open market, cheap labor variety, george bush was one of those, you know, in favor of free, easily exploitable and. But, you know, we see the chamber of commerce, which is pretty supporting more liberal immigration. And so so there is tension there as well as a tension among democrats on the issue as well. So i, i think that you know thinking about texas, you know, texas is, you know borders mexico has a of economic relationships with mexico is somewhat different and its its approach to mexico than many including california at times. So it is a complex history that that i certainly have a full explanation of how they came out on some of those issues. I think texas is divided right. And i think theres theres a sort of a republican schism in texas that has a strong, you know, sort of tie to h. W. Bush and sort of that line on immigration policy. But even 187. Right. Was within the Republican Party nationally in some ways, in the sense that after we see this push for one of these ovens, you know, and particularly for the sort of some of the antiimmigrant targeting and welfare reform, the republican governors sort of mobilize against it because they see like sort of the impact that its going to have on fiscal like the fiscal impact its going to have on their state. So i think its sort of you know, theres a fight going on within the Republican Party in the nineties and sort of during the eighties, like 94, right. Largely the sort of more continued to cheap labor, sort of like george h. W. Bush, sort of republican position on immigration, sort of hold the weight and then probably seven happens the you know, the contract with america happens we see a different wing in the party start to sort of bear that weight in the party, sort of drive the National Policy conversation. I think 2000, you start to see us sort of back and then we start to see that 2010, right . Right. I dont even think you have to go. Donald trump. I think you go to the tea party, you go to 2010 and you start to see the sort of what whos being dominant within. The Republican Party on immigration has already started shift, you know, by sort of the end of the George W Bush administration. There was another question back there. Yes. I thank you for your talk. It is like blazing hot in here, like, yeah, i took off my coat so, you know, my clothes and just yeah. So the question i have for you all is, you know, when youre talking about one of these seven and so like when i teach it as well like sometimes i fail to make connections with, the plyler decision. So im wondering there is, you know, explicit connections between and 187 and two or nine, right . Both for and against. Right propositions. But also like this broader question, supreme Court Decisions and questions of belonging in the United States with immigrant populations, diverse immigrant populations. And i want to dominate the discussion, but plyler held in five, four decision that undocumented children couldnt be excluded from the kthrough12 Public Schools. The kthrough12 Public Schools are primarily funded by local governments. In one of the things its a problem in i view, is a problem as well as others is the federal government is in charge of immigration, but the states have to pay for things state and local governments have to pay things like like education. And so theres even immigrants, in my view and i think the data shows benefit the economy as a whole that tends tax revenues to go to the federal government as opposed to the state governments which are in charge of funding schools. So theres a conflict, continuing conflict in in the idea. And pete wilson emphasizes that will money by kicking undocumented kids out of the Public Schools in texas, alabama, georgia and South Carolina where theyre trying to collect data on undocumented children in the Public Schools. The idea the same. Were going to collect data showing that they cost so darn much they inducting immigrants cost too darn much. We should revisit plyler versus doe overall, plyler versus and get rid of it. It was a54 decision. Its unclear this Supreme Court would decide the case the same. We know that precedent isnt the same thing before this Supreme Court as it is always under prior supreme. And so theres a real danger to going to the Supreme Court but think there is a relationship and it just as a reminder like the case comes out of texas right. Because of judge William Justice and therefore im shopping for it to get that before him. But there are School Districts, california, that are doing this same process. And then mid 1970s, right. Theyre starting consider charging tuition, theyre starting to try and start to charge tuition. So i think we have this idea that somehow, like pilar, you know, is this is this texas moment, whatever it feeds into this sort of moment, california, when you start to see in the 1970s. Right. It just happens to for Forum Shopping reasons to come out of texas and ill just add the Voucher Initiative was what 92 or 94 and again its like the Voucher Initiative in california thinking about plater versus doe its an initiative that was trying to allow californians exit their kids from Public Schools and then get money from that exodus and then use that to pay for private school. And so theres this whole politics think built around education that is i think linked to this topic here. Im glad that you brought it up. And this is also why im mentioning local control funding formula, because it not only secures an even amount per pupil funding across california, but then also increases amount based on the and duplicated Student Count who are english learners. Right. Foster can also add those who qualify for free and reduced meal plans. And so its again that that is a great question. I think we got to link it back to the the initiative cvs as an as a barometer of of the political context in california im not sure its i dont i dont know much about im not a historian or the history of of whats going on in texas at that time or in california. But but certainly, i want to go back to your point about the just the initiatives. And this is kind of a learning for me right now, like its hitting me how no normalized. Ive ive it, right . Yeah. Yeah yeah just wedge after wedge issues you know. Yeah yeah. Id never on a Ballot Initiative. Yes. Back there and then you. Yeah. Hi this is a great panel. Thank so much. So i study conservatism among communities of color and my next book is about Orange County so ive read a lot of work by folks up on their the panel and this might have been discussed i came in a little late but i know that the voter breakdown for 187 in terms of racial demographics you know majority of nonhispanic whites, right. 60 something percent and 20 something percent latin next, voters voted and i know for black and asianamerican voters, it was split down the middle. And so ive always been very curious about and kind of how people i mean, i kind have my own and i think we all have our own suspicions about why that happened. But id be curious to hear your all your thoughts. I knew at that time asianamerican voters were not a very large percentage is right in their midnineties but for black voters and others im just curious kind of how youve made sense of it. I also know that when you think about the multi coalitions that discussed earlier, i mean, those folks were obviously opposed. And so thinking about kind what the kind of voter breakdown, what this meant for, the Multiracial Coalitions that were in challenges that different communities of color faced. Im just curious to hear your thoughts and kind of recollections from, the time for folks who were involved with, the campaigns, because i just find it really interesting and i just i havent found a ton of discussion in the literature, so im just curious. Thank you. Well, the Multiracial Coalition was a work in progress and it still obviously so in, you know the midnineties, there was a lot of education in occurring amongst communities of color and even within communities of color. Mexico in americans and Central Americans having a lot of disagreements on, you know, whether or not they were a group. So there was a lot of prop, you know, there was a lot of process, lot of Community Building and and messaging that occurred in part through religious organizing asians, in part through the schools. And so, you know, we see that a shift in the asianamerican and latino africanamerican kind of interracial its like in views on other groups shaped throughout the nineties because in part also there was a lot of residential segregation and over time groups started to become more integrated and had to learn about each other and in some cases Work Together that said theres still a lot of division and theres also a significant Class Division that its kind of driving some of the conservativism among some communities of color are just quickly and you see this to this day on the issue of affirmative action are specific latching on to asianamerican voters and saying, hey, you are the modern day whites and that affirmative action discriminates against. So the 187 campaign and im i remember so much with 187 but i do know because of course the fights over immigration went into the early 2000s and you would have these antiimmigrant voters push out or deny like pull in public. Oh you see heres black voters or know black spokespeople. I remember in anaheim, there was there was a protest outside city hall because conservatives wanted anaheim to start allowing immigration agents in the in the anaheim jail and. So there was a group of of people who wanted that. Then there was a group of flat out communists who were protesting them. And then there was a group across the street protesting both of those groups. And i know because my sister across the street protesting both those groups and i was there in the middle just reporting everything. A brawl broke out. Those of you who remember american patrol, glenn spencer, he was there. He he was there. Ill just leave it at that. And in the middle of that, were as a group of africanamerican men, of black men. And they were going on on about and using very nasty terms about how innocuous and immigrants had stolen the jobs of citizens. And we have suffered way more. You folks are stealing our jobs. And this is why we are against immigration. So those stories always been promoted even now theres a funny bit of a side but i read the you know the press vdare and like ultra they call themselves nationalist ill call them Something Else black label that precludes me from saying that but now theyre starting to get their own like black voices, latino voices. It is the most fascinating thing there. Its same conservative philosophy and really nasty that. But theyre always going to be pushed. But thankfully, there are people who are doing the hard work to get these these coalitions together and explain them like it is. Our beef is not our beef shouldnt be amongst ourselves. Something else i am fascinated, by the way, you framed your perspective of understanding the conservative. I dont know, part communities of color and what strikes me and im curious to what my colleagues think, because im going to go out on a limb here. But to me the conservative ideology of traditional values, Judeo Christian church, family, its stuff like small government. And whats the other one thats a oh line order. Right line order. Thats already in some ways a dog whistle discourse. Right . So already the shift the Republican Party in the late sixties. So in some ways its a way of coding race without calling race. Does that make sense . And so what im curious about with immigrant communities, whatever im thinking about our parents also come from political do that of explicit racism is is here its not here and so in some ways the traditional values part of the conservative message is where they to hook. Right. But but then with papua 97 making it explicit the racist right it kind of disrupts conservative game plan there. Im wondering if if that resonates with you, its the stupidest thing the republicans ever did. They could have had an entire generation allies of mexican americans from that, you know, other people from the forties through the eighties who came from harleys going to all that, i always tell people, my cousins, my uncles, theyre all rock ribbed republicans and not in the nicest way they are, you know, racist and all of this homophobic, they grew up with those values very much. I mean, i create a term for radical liberty very much. I do not like the government i do not want anyone tell me. But the minute they you start hearing, oh illegal, this is that you stop youre like, hey, thats my uncle, thats my dad. A screw you, republicans. Maybe i dont like the democrats. Maybe i dont like woke culture, but theres no way on earth i will ever vote. And thats why at least held for a generation course. Trump came and upended that somewhat, not completely. He got, what, 35 of the vote. Right. And i think a lot of what i see in multiracial organizing, particularly with the Younger Generation post 187 is like helping folks decode that language can cecilias part of the curriculum part of organizing and how do you shift towards kind of questions of systemic racism so that youre looking at policies and, you know, you might someone mentioned Kevin De Leon and the audio leaks and so forth and these Multiracial Coalitions taking Nury Martinez and kevin dillon to task because thats where you see this antiblack antiindigenous racism. And so i think theres theres these new elements of organizing that are really in some ways taking this coded language to task, articulating a, i think a, more potent vision for social justice, racial justice. I dont know what you about that is that right . Its also a reversal of the National Lipstick frames that we that were leftover from the 1960s. Oh so that its about you know group and we need uplift my group and our group but but thinking more broadly systemic racism about communities of color bipoc communities as a whole about Queer Community so young people today are lot more inclusive of lgbtq communities and. And that wasnt the case in 187 days. So yeah, and so, you know, another proposition that was really critical was, you know, proposition in 2000 828 designating i think get that that really raised consciousness around lgbtq issues within communities of color and then also helped kind of create a new frame for the undocumented Youth Movement that was really inclusive. Yeah because, great question. Kyle. Thank you so much for a great panel. I wanted to continue the previous question a little bit and ask if you could speak a little bit about specific antiimmigrant conservatism. So for example, im from whittier and one of our city councilwoman, jessica martinez. She sued governor gavin newsom for providing pandemic relief to undocumented immigrants. She was also supported by another i think they were an assembly member. And kind of as youre seeing these like pockets of specific anti immigrant latino conservatism, whether you all see that as part a larger trend or just kind of one off rare events. Thank you so. To tackle that one, go for well, remember a quarter latinos voted for proposition 187 according 35 of latinos voted for donald trump, despite being the most antiimmigrant politician in probably ever in american history, definitely as the presidency, it goes back respectability politics. Its like well, we came the right way. Youre always going to hear that, you know, the people came over whether as a bracero program, whether on a visa or whatever and they stayed here. We came here the right way or. A you know, you have also well, i mean, its colorism ultimately, but also, i think provincial is where i mean, ill use the example of my, you know, my late great mommy my mother who shes oh, you know, we from zacatecas, were honorable people. Were not like the people from michoacan. And lets not even talk about the people from oaxaca and what are. Yeah. And we would tell mom my mom. Thats racist. No, not no, its not. But notice what the patterns are there. Zacatecas been coming in since from the 1900s till today. Michoacan really coming in in the 1950s and sixties was oaxacan migration. Indigenous migration really has been picking up. I mean its been going on since at least the sixties, but picking up in the eighties. And now if you talk to a lot of mexicans, theyll say, you know, oh, those refugees, we dont care about them. Like that horrible massacre of those detainees and and you see the Mexican Government not really caring. Younger people are outraged, as anyone who has a heart should be outraged. But most theyll be like theres venezuela aliens and guatemalans and and salvadorans. Theyre not my people. I should care. It is very much its always going be an issue among us. And this is where is important where i do see we talk about optimism. It is the Younger Generation. The Younger Generation who is the beneficiary of the lessons we older people can tell them. And then they could see what our errors were and what needs to be done so we can forward. So there are a lot there world could be a far better and more equitable place than the one that we grew up in and guess the frame i would put on this question is that that councilmember in whittier is not acting alone. My experience at, the local level as a School Board Member, is that were constantly seeing people latin next putting themselves on the ballot but theyre very closely with the Republican Party and these other think tanks and. So theyve been investing heavily in their own leader this iglesias and chicano and all these others that are getting very robust support under, republican side and all these other organizations that provide them with training, both in terms of discourse, policy positions as well as Campaign Management and the Democratic Party. Certainly in Orange County, although its much stronger before, doesnt have that kind of capacity at the local level to really run candidates and know this is kind of one of those latter approaches where they run folks at first city and on school boards. So that they can put them into state and federal races. So just investment by the Republican Party is much more clear to me now than before. I was just going to add one thing. Historically about 1 to 7, which is like and im blanking on the name, so you all will have to remind me. Its like burlingame or Something Like that. The, the firm they hired to do the signatures, right. That 97 needs signatures at a certain point. And they turn it, they get funding for it through mountjoy and others. And the sort of widespread like Republican Party. And they hire a big republican signature getting firm right. This is not you know these things are not we have this idea that its barbara co and sort of on her own like sort of grassroots out of the out of the aoc but its not right and theres this sort much more of this sort of broad backing of prop on 87 through sort of those those structures. Yeah, theres a machine. Its a machine. Yeah. Ill just add a little bit. Its these are hard issues, but there, there is some conflict between the, the the mexican immigrant community, the mexicanamerican citizen community. And i have a mother who allegedly was born in the imperial valley, but i think was born the other side. And voted for proposition 87 because she she felt she was different from. Those immigrants and we see conflicts. I mean, it was in east l. A. About years ago when there was objections amongst some mexicanamericans to, all the masses being held in spanish, in, in. So, you know, and this is conflicts there that we need work through. And theres also not always agreement among africanamericans and latinos on a variety of issues. And immigration is one of those issues where maybe people inflame them and throw, but still conflict in South Central was transforming from a primarily African American community to a more mixed latino africanamerican community. There is tension and theres still issues there. Those are hard to work through and take a lot of time. But you see them come up in votes four for immigration. Thats why . Theres a group, you know. Its called blacks for justice for immigrants that that has emerged trying to emphasize know its not let immigrants fault that africanamerica wages lag behind of others and we should work with immigrants to fight that. The glasses. I everyone thanks for a great presentation and im really digging all the continuity that youve been drawing both between prop 187 and some of the later proposition all the way to sb 1070. And i also the continuity between some of the wacky ways that california voters use proposition initiatives that lead us to prop 187. I was actually wondering if you could speak more about some of the changes because as leaders like 1992 immigration really wasnt a pressing issue for california voters. It was mostly stuff about the economy and the recession. So im wondering between light and also the fact that it was, you know, some eight years after the passage of a major immigration bill, three years after the decision in, abc versus thornburg, that was kind of proimmigrant. So im just how you get from that contact sort of like 1986 1991 where immigration is not looking like it would might move in a way that leads in papua 97 to prop 187. Just really quickly there was those tensions because remember in 1986 there was a proposition designates english as the official language of and that was sponsored by a group called u. S. English that was a Front Organization for a gentleman named john tanton, who was eugenicist and who also gave seed money for many antiimmigrant organizations like the you know, like a lot of antiimmigrant organizations. And then in the late eighties on the local level, you start seeing cities not initiatives, but what you call ordinances. Thank you. Banning Foreign Language signs, garden grove, Little Saigon, Monterey Park places that we now consider such, you know, a touchstone of what Southern California is. They were those battles in Orange County. You know going to the person whos writing the book about Orange County was a Bumper Sticker that said you well the last american in garden grove please take down the american flag. And you know, when there was a Little Saigon that was finally put up on the freeway in the late eighties, it was torn down. So 187 was just, you know, was the coalmines version of something that had been bubbling, california had been changing ever since the you know, since the 1965 Immigration Reform act. And we also have to take into consideration the growing of the state at the time. So 1986, a lot of people got their papers but the popular motion that came after continue to grow and they were largely undocumented in for citizenship there was also a growing asian immigrant population california and there was backlash against them too. It wasnt as overt all the time it was up for it. Sometimes the local level, but not so much at the state level. But prop 187 was also an attack. Asianamerican communities, newly recent immigrant community is that were not that were still learning and and so that demographic change the undocumented population to this you know to prop 187 such an important issue for a conservative white population i think im understanding your question slightly differently let me know because. I concur with what youre saying, that the precursors were already there at the same time, i think because i heard you say this registers with me. Correct me if im wrong, that immigration wasnt registering that high when pete wilson was running. These were it was kind of low on voter polls. I think you said that earlier. Was that correct immigration was already trending as an issue, but wilson was not he was someone who had never used that previously and i think thats really the question is like, what is it that been like . So was it the campaign that kind of activated . It kind of was the once when 87 got on the ballot and wilson that zero had Political Capital that xenophobia was a way to success thats what he did think. Listen to my two and a half hour conversation with wilson on the podcast about my cast really is great. Thank you. Sorry im a little short. Hi, my names esperanza sanchez. Im an associate curator at the el dorado is where a museum and Cultural Center that focused on mexican, mexican, american and Latino History and culture here in los angeles. And i want to thank you all having this panel, but also giving us all of your insight and, your research and experience with prop one, 87 and everything. After work. Now that youre heading the 30th anniversary next year in you answered a lot of the questions that i had in mind. But one of the things that i do want to ask is regarding immigration and migration and the trends that are happening now, possibly the talks like what do envision that might happen in the next ten years based off what is going on with the organizations, the social movements, but also particular because you have such Large Population that is coming from Central America and south america, but especially Young Children and, young adults that are coming on their own. And now that we know that theres far reports coming out about large u. S. Companies benefiting only from the cheap labor, but the fact that theyre violating child labor laws at the same time as well. So i was wondering what what what do you envision the talks are going to happen . What kind of policies or federal conversations are we going to in the next ten years, possibly. Who wants to kick us off with your predictions. Well, i could see im really nervous and scared because of the state of Public Education at this point. We have so many people leaving teaching profession at a when young people are at such great need. And so we have all new immigrants, new refugees in we have this older population, population thats been around longer thats really suffering and unless the Public School system the services for young people outside of school you know, get resources or get more infrastructure that was kind of devastated during covid. Im really worried about a younger not supported it and politicized in no way that forms those multiracial contributes to multiracial Coalition Building in the way that we saw prior to the pandemic. Ethnic studies is promising but we dont have people teach ethnic studies right now. Mm hmm. I guess one of the things that i think about sort of a lot coming sort of looking forward is do you see this with proposition 187 . Right. In the sense that we talked about how california drives the nation. I think what were going to see, what i sort of see going on and i think one of the reasons why people are really turned to california is i think a lot on the antiimmigrant side put, a lot of faith in erica. Right. And its about six years later, theyre like, okay, we sort of bought into burka, but we didnt get what we wanted. Right . So lets turn to the state house. So weve seen that, right . We see that happen. California, we see it happen in states across the United States. You know, and i think we see over time and, you know, im not you know, this is not my own research, but alan colburn and Karthick Ramakrishnan work right on on sort of Citizenship Rights within each state being different right. I think i think that is a trend that were going see in the sense that i dont see any form of comprehensive Immigration Reform really going forward. And i think were going to see and more a sort of fracture immigration, federalism, sort of where rights for immigrants and sort of question questions about labor and sort of those sort of sort of that is very much to be decided at a state level for local. I think that only good things will if people become politically active and remain politically active and push Immigration Reform, the default position of the Republican Democratic parties do rock the boat not to make change. One of the to me one of the most stunning positive developments of the 21st century has been for activism among young under immigrant communities. It was the case in the fifties to the end of the 20th century. The then documented immigrants, even george bush said this, said, live in the shadows of america. The new group of immigrants are not living in the shadows, but theyre active political rallies. Theyre theyre taking the streets. Theyre active. And you know theyre going to the state of the union. Things have changed. Incredible. Its hard to imagine you having seen that change. Its hard for me to still grasp that there was a person whos in the white house in the obama years who told me that the only way to push democrats on that issue is to pushing democrats on the issue. And in that was a president that was horrible on immigration, in my view, who deported immigrants than any president in the united history more than donald trump. He had other positives dako which hell be remembered and i think that its going to be Political Action not the law or cases thats going to change. Can so i guess thats my prediction that nothing is going to change over the ten years that you ten year horizon and. Kevin i guess my question for use around given because with the court the supreme right do see any key changes there because if yeah you thats right so im thinking of if these folks are still alive for the next ten years i think that even if theres change in congress and some attempt to dismantle the existing infrastructure, the existing policy infrastructure is, very punitive, restrictive. And so forth like thats the legacy since prop 187. And and even if theres a cause changing the president didnt make a big difference with biden with with obama right because the are still the secure communities are still in place so that policies structure so i guess im predicting that there wont be much change over the next ten years. So even if you change congress, i think anything will be litigated and eventually get to the Supreme Court where. We unless someone dies or several people die or get deposed. Right. And maybe to not sufficiently optimistic. Kevin. I mean, i think congress could pass a law Congress Passed it 1965 immigration act which changed awful lot and removed removed the bars to chinese immigration the United States congress could enact a darker policy if it wanted very hard to stop that from going in effect by going to the courts to do that theres know you can change entire immigrant visas structure you can narrow the removal provisions that require mandatory detention of aggravated felons with aggravated felonies being defined. And many of those have already been proposed. Right. And have been on the docket for many years and havent been passed. Right. And so i guess im not thats why i say it has to be Political Action going to be political change. Okay. So you still see a wiggle room within the legislative arm that doesnt it would not be then contravened by the Supreme Court because its within the purview of congress that im pessimistic that end. So im more optimistic on the state level around what is possible and i dont think theres a way out of but multiracial, intersectional organizing, consciousness building, building within our institutions, whether its ethnic studies womens studies, can really develop the new and sustain that kind of critical education as well. I think we have time for one more quick question. Yes, please. Any time is sanchez. Im with the Harvard Society fellows police. What was the role or the position of the police in the nineties . How has that changed . When anecdote is drivers license for undocumented immigrants is on the ballot in. Massachusetts last year and the only anti solid Police Officer saying its a thing that they have drivers licenses. So im wondering, do you see a cultural among police or are there Certain Police chiefs that are changing the narrative . Theyre just really. Oh, go ahead. Yeah i was just say on the National Politics level, the police is sort of divided. Right. Youve know, leo made major city chiefs on one side. Youve fop on another. Like theres no theres no sort of uniformity between Law Enforcement and ed. Yeah. And here in los angeles i mean you have daryl gates, the notorious daryl one of the only positive things he did was special order 40, which basically told his Police Officers dont inquire about status as far as we care we are cracking on quote unquote crime but immigration not going to be one of those things you talk about police today. Well, this is a question at here in l. A. County. When we talk about enforcement, were really talking about now about latinos. You have a sheriff or the previous sheriff, Alex Villanueva was a latino robert luna, the current sheriff. Hes a latino. His l. A. County sheriff and lapd are majority latino. So you hope that because lot of them come from immigrant communities. I have a cousin whos lapd. I have another cousin whos in probation. And i know for a fact them, too, you know, their parents, you know, there might be positives. And someone came undocumented. Some of them came. So you would hope that they have that background to try to be kinder to undocumented. On the other hand, though, its still police culture. In fact, i was just texting today with one of my colleagues. Its like, okay, so what good is it if you have latinos in Law Enforcement as a majority, if theres basically what lapd used to be, which is sorry for the oklahomans out there, but just a bunch of racist okies beating down on black and brown people because thats what the lapd was for decades. And thats what the lapds instructors taught. A lot of those latinos, a lot of those latinos absorb those lessons. Look at all the deputy gangs in l. A. County with, the sheriffs department. All right. So im going wind us down here with. The last lightning round for all of our panelists. Yesterday, i attended the plenary on teaching history and uncertain times. It was wonderful. It frightening. And so we are still able to teach. 187 what do you each believe . What is the most important thing that you want to say about this . Why is it so important for students today . Everyone today to understand about prop 187. Well i see this in organizing circles the importance of prop 187 and the importance of getting out the vote in voting. So ill answer a question as a School Board Member and all the work that weve been doing to implement ethnic studies at the School District level. And so for me, it has to be essential part of the curriculum because it ties in also the experiences our parents or the parents of the children. So its a great way to do an intergenerational hook and so the students can interview their parents and so forth. And so from a pedagogical standpoint, its critical, but there is there are many School Districts that then are not implementing ethics is the way it should. And want to emphasize. That proposition 87 is part of a racist history of immigration that, you know, traces back u. S. History to the chinese, to the repatriation of mexican citizens and immigrants just blocks from here in the 1930s, know your history more. You know your history, the better equipped you to confront what whats in front of you and whats what youre dealing with now and in the future. And of course, those dont know their history. We know the rest of that i guess the similar like a sort of understanding the longer history and the ways in which property seven fits into this much longer landscape. The language may change, right . The the dog whistling term of 8090 native papua 97 may be different than the one of today, but theyre forms of dog whistling. Thank you so much. Me in thanking all of. I come a country of role plays called the United States of