Cyber crime department. His areas of research and interest cover behavioral aspects of deviant use of technology, cyber criminal Behavior Analysis and understanding cyber terrorism. Today hell be presenting a talk entitled Cyber Security and social media, how big is your digital footprint and why should you care . As we do at every one of these, i would ask you to silence your electronic devices, please, but dont turn them off. We hope to see you tweeting to dawnordoom or posting to facebook, snapchat, instagram or whatever flavor of social product you use. Although i also understand that halfway through the presentation you decide to stop doing that. Please join me in welcoming dr. Mark rogers. Thank you. Can anybody hear me at the back . Im either blessed or cursed with a voice that tends to boom a little bit. Welcome to dawn or doom. As gerry indicated my talk is going to be about this concept of digital footprint. Im going to warning you its going to come across on the doom side of dawn or doom. For the record im a tech guy. Ask my wife. Im a geek. I like technology. I like my toys. I do online banking, purchase stuff over the internet. So this isnt about fear. This is about understanding the cost benefit analysis of technology. Nothing in like is without risk. Its the same with using technology. What is the cost of technology. What is the cost of the convenience that we now have with these devices . Because nothing is for free. We all know that. So without further ado, lets talk about this whole concept of a digital footprint. Were going to look at what is it . More importantly, why should you care . Its one thing to say theres this kind of concept out there but what difference does it make to me. What can we do once we understand some of the risks of this digital footprint, and then well put our soothsayers hat on and look at whats coming down the pike. Digital footprint. Were all aware of the concept of carbon footprint. Its something in the popular media. Were aware, concerned about how big is our carbon footprint. But very few of us think about how big our digital footprint really is. Think about it, were a wired society. Especially this next generation, current generation. They are wired. They are connected 24 7. They love to share information about themselves every 15 minutes in 140 characters or less. Its a very wired society. So because of that, we have a trail that we leave behind. So the concept of a digital footprint is exactly that. Its the information, its the artifacts, its the traces that you leave behind when you use technology, when you use the internet, when you drive your car, when you use that smart thermostat, when you do a lot of these things that we dont really take into consideration, leave traces of who we are, what we like, and what we do. Theres two types. Theres the passive. This is really creative, then when youre surfing the internet, talking on the phone. When youre doing these things we do daily. The passive is really collected, more importantly, without you knowing it. So as you go and surf the web, theres things called web cookies. If you go and search for a particular term, theres information such as ip addresses. So the passive is one. Active is a very interesting concept. This is what we voluntarily share with the companies. So think about this. This is the Data Information such as you put on your Facebook Page, your twitter accounts, your instagram. This is information that we voluntarily share. We know were sharing it. Whats interesting with this from a concept of risk benefit analysis is while we share it, were not always sure whats going to happen to that information once it gets collected. Theres the issue of, okay, i shared the information with company x, but what does company x do with that information . Where does it go . How can we control it . Can we control it and should we worry about it . Whats interesting, on the investigative side of the house, theres always this balance between security and privacy. When youre talking about Digital Footprints and these artifacts or traces, another trend that often gets used especially in Law Enforcement community is evidence. Because an investigation, these type of Digital Footprints can be used as a type of evidence. Why is the Data Collected . Several reasons. The main reasons are usually to do with money, commercial. Theres commercial reason for doing this. Your information is worth a lot of money. Now, your individual information might only be worth pennies. But if you take 50 million peoples information, all of a sudden the value of that information has increased. So you have people like direct marketers. They want to send you stuff, look at where youve gone, what youve done, what you shopped for, what you picked up at the Grocery Store and then directly market to you, because that actually is a better way of potentially swaying your purchasing opinions than doing Mass Marketing to everybody under the sun and not know if thats something of interest to you. Consumer profiling. Again, trying to understand what it is you like, what you dont like, and then trying to influence your buying decisions. You also have these organizations called data aggregators. What these companies do, they are kind of the big daddy the big data grandfathers of the internet. They collect the information from various sources all over, all these traces that aggregate the data. Supposedly they anonomize it and sell to direct marketers and consumer profilers. Youve also got government. Thanks so some of the things that happened over the past couple of years, some of the disclosures by some of the individuals that have decided to leak information, we know that various Government Agencies are looking at this data, are concerned about whats happening online. Using some of that same information the marketers and consumer profiling people are doing and using it for investigations. Using it to try to determine the next terrorist attack. Using it to try and determine is somebody going to commit a crime or somebody has commit add crime. Then youve got other. Youve got Cell Phone Companies that are collecting information supposedly for engineering purposes, for purposes of troubleshooting networks, devices. This is information if used for those purposes still says a lot about where you are, what youve done and where youve gone. Youve also got Health Insurers and insurance companies. This information is being collected so they get a medical profile. They can understand what issues you have health related. They might look at passing this on to underwriters, actuarials, whats your risk fact are now. Should it go up next time you try to renew your policy. Information like that. In some cases, definitely a very positive, is there something in your Health History they can basically tell you about early so you might be able to be pro active as opposed to reactive with your health care. So theres lots of various reasons why this information is being collected. Some good, some bad, but mostly its neutral. Data in and of itself isnt good, evil or anything else, its neutral. Its what we do with that data that determines how much of a risk there can possibly be. So tracking technologies. This the passive side. Theres all kinds of technologies out there. As we speak theres new technologies coming online to track what youre doing. This became very obvious when the last bunch of operating systems got updated and the browsers got updated. In those browsers was a concept of ad blocking. Man, did that ever annoy these companies that were trying to collect this information because thats their bread and butter. They got really annoyed because, wait a minute, we cant follow, we cant track so easily. In fact, if you were to go to some of these websites with ad blocking browsers which were default in the operating system, it would come back and say, wait a minute, youre using an ad blocking browser. Whees dont use this or white list us, in order to keep the site going we really need to collect this information from you. Thats an interesting concept. Youve also got things like malware. Weve all heard stories about systems being taken over, information being leaked off of these systems without our knowledge so we have basically the bad side of the house. We have interesting things as invisible disguise links. Links that look like one thing and you click on it and it takes you some place completely different. So theres all kinds of tracking technologies that are both inherent in the technologies were using. Some are rather creative ways of those companies, those entities i talked about tracking what youre doing and creating this large database of what you do, where you go, what you like, and who you associate with. When you enter into data mining, this becomes a very, very interesting concept. This is the stuff we share. This is the active side of the house. Email, texting. Youre voluntarily giving that information away, who youre talking to. In some cases, what youre talking about. Depending upon the Internet Company or the mail provider, even the content of your mail they are allowed to look at, part of the terms of services. Credit card purchases. This is an interesting kind of a positive to using these credit cards. Youll find that these Credit Card Companies keep profiles of your buying habits, of your spending habits. How many of you have gone and purchased something that was a little bit out of the ordinary only to get a phone call or text saying, wait a minute, are you sure this is you buying it . How do you think they are doing that . They arent sitting over your shoulder, they have created a profile, consumer profile and you dont fit it. Thats a good. Thats a positive, especially if that purchase is happening in new york at the same time youre sitting here in West Lafayette trying to use your credit card at the same time. We kind of want to know. Think about the information weve collected in order to develop that consumer profile. Twitter, social media, facebooks and facebooks to come and other technologies to come, part of their business is not to give you free access to their services, its to collect your data and to make money off your data. Thats how they stay alive, through marketing, consumer profiling, data aggregation. At least on this side of the house, we should be aware of the fact that our data is being collected, and we should have made an informed, educated decision that were okay with these folks collecting our data. We should probably go one step further and be okay with what they are doing with it afterwards. Who are they selling it to. Who gets this information . How is it being used . This is the side thats probably a little bit easier for us to have some controls over as far as what we now think is acceptable risk for our data. So what is collected . Okay. So we understand why, kind of have an idea of who. But what . Youd be amazed at the information thats available especially if you get involved in basically the correlation of these very large data reposit y repositories and can start doing Trend Analysis and pattern analysis. Basically the information thats being collected is enough to create something called your personal narrative, your profile. What you do from when you get up in the morning to when you go to bed at night and everything in between. Its kind of like the ultimate big brother from the 1984 in these books about how were being surveilled. It can be thought of as that type of an issue. Theres a lot of information they know. What route you took to work or you drove. How fast you went to work. The time you have lunch, the time you get up. The time you go to work. Your coffee break. The time you get home. This is a lot of information. In the good old days when Law Enforcement used to want to do surveillance on somebody, they physically had to do the old stakeout. They had to park the car by the house, get the binoculars out. Law enforcement doesnt have to do this anymore. Youre giving this information. Youre creating this persona, this narrative they can actually follow. In some cases this information has been used in a lot of cases for very good reasons. There are stories about people who have gotten lost. Older people that maybe have dementia that wander off. They can be found through technology, the ability of that technology to do geo location. The gps on your phone, to find out where you are. Find out maybe which hot spot your phone or your wifi came from, where youre sitting. For lots of folks, some incredible advantages. So for everything im talking about with a bit of a negative flavor, theres definitely a positive flavor. Were more aware of the positive, so spend a little more time educating us not on the negative but the risky side of the house. Lets look at this again. Your personal narrative. This is a lot of pretty i would say personal information but im not sure i want everybody to know about. Im not sure i want a Marketing Company to know this information. While it could be very good for directed marketing, theres a real downside. Just briefly here is the narrative or information this data can portray about you. What you like to eat. What you like to drink. What you watch on tv. That streaming, thats not necessarily for free or for the low price youre paying for it. Youre paying it back, collecting what you like to watch the the whole concept of the neilson rating has changed with streaming tv and streaming video. Your partnership status. That can be important for a lot of different reasons. For health care, child custody, you name it. The size of your family, your religion, your sexual orientation, your political orientation, your circle of friends. Why would we be concerned about who knows who our friends are . Theres at least a few reports where individuals who had been applying for loans, for credit were turned down as being a high risk because the group of friends they associated with were high risk, didnt fit that profile that that Financial Institution thought was good or nonrisky. So even the choice of your friends can affect decisions about you. Your current health. These days with the telemedicine and telehealth care and everything online, im not sure i want everybody to know my health information. Im not sure maybe i want my employer to know everything about my health. Maybe my Insurance Company and my doctor but not necessarily my employer. So each one of these things individually can cause people to go, hey, thats a little much. You combine this all together, and it becomes even a bigger. In some cases we hope precise picture but not necessarily. One of the issues with our digital footprint and collecting data and personas, you have no way checking to see if its accurate picture of you. Think about that. A lot of data is being collected about you. They are creating these profiles. They are creating basically a digital version of you. Im going to show you what some of the decisions are being made based on that profile and you do not have access to fact check, to make sure its correct. If anybody in this room doesnt think theres going to be errors made, a lot of stuff done on a statistical basis, i have news for you. There is a good possibility its not all accurate. So why should you care . Quite often people say im not a criminal, i have nothing to hide. Im going to challenge theres not one person in this room that doesnt have something they really do not want to be made public. Doesnt mean criminal, anything criminal, but theres parts of our lives which are private. Not everything we want shared. So privacy. Big issue. Well, what do i care if this information gets out there, were talking Cyber Security risk. Who is going to attack me. You would be surprised. If you simply have a connection to the internet and you do with your phone, you are a potential victim for somebody to attack you. A lot of cases they are not after you but entry point maybe into your bank, Health Care System and you become that toll into the institution. And your information then gets used in some cases to create an attack vector to go after something bigger. In some cases the attacks against you. In those cases weve heard about things like Identity Theft and really dark side. So lets have a look. What are some of the privacy concerns . The big concern is, what if its inaccurate . Potentially you can be denied employment. Employers go and check data, right . They actually go and purchase information from data aggregators and make decisions. Its very interesting when i had a quick look at whats out there, the majority of the information on Digital Footprints is geared towards High School Students and the only warning they have is dont post bad stuff to facebook because you wont get a job. Well, obviously its a lot more than that. But necessarily employers will go and look and purchase this information. If its inaccurate, you could have a problem. Credit Companies Due diligence, they go out and look at the stuff. They create a risk profile. You could be denied health insurance. Public humiliation. You could be basically slammed on the internet, defamed, have your picture on the front page of the local newspaper. Whats interesting is the media is very quick to put these pictures up there. But if it happens that youre innocent and it wasnt you, thats a little biline on the ninth page near the obituaries at the back of the paper. Its not going to be a retraction on the front page saying, oops, were sorry. Youre going to have to go digging for that. You can be basically found guilty simply by being in the press. In some cases, even arrested. Information could have shown your phone, your computer was used to attack that Financial Institution. Persona used for a false identity. Wait a minute. All of a sudden, its you. You can still be denied credit, all those things i talked about. This information used to make some very life changing serious decisions. In some cases even to look at acceptance to university. So if this data is out there it should be used in such a way at least we have a chance of defending ourselves against it or challenging the accuracy of it. Also from privacy perspective, why should somebody make money off your data . It would be great idea if you got 0. 0001 of every transaction made of your data sold to somebody else. That would be a pretty good income considering millions of information shared around. In some cases with consent. Company a will collect your data. Okay. I willingly allow this company to take my data because i want to use that functionality, convenience of fast delivery, but i didnt agree for you to sell it to these telemarketers who are going to call me at 9 00 a. M. On sunday and try to sell me something. Where do you think those numbers come from . They didnt come out and ask, telemarketers saying, hey, can we have your number and bother you 24 7, please . They are a little bit smarter than that. Not much but a little. We give them a little credit for that. They are buying this information. I dont think if you knew thats how the information is going to be shared you would have readily agreed even if it did mean you would get your deliveries a day early. Were understanding the cost benefit, the risk tradeoff. One of the questions that comes up is, well, great, but can you ever be Anonymous Online with technology . Thats a very good question, not one to get in here because thats a completely different discussion. We hear the concepts of anonymity, pseudoanonymity and this gets into the whole concept of what is privacy and can you really be private . Its interesting because i think my generation and the current generation of what we want to call them, digital natives, has a complete definition of privacy than we do. To my definition, privacy is a binary decision. Its either private or it isnt. To the generations that come along since, promises to be on a continual. Private. Were hearing concepts like pseudoprivacy, which is bizarre, but part of that wire culture, part of that wire generation. Lets look at the security concerns. Its interesting to see that these security concerns are not Just Technology kind of geeky internet stuff. Think back to the information ive shown before. Somebody knows which route you drive to work, which coffee shop you go to, where you take your lunch, which park your kids play at and between what hours. Thats a lot of information that somebody that may want to have nefarious plans could use in the real world to do physical stalking, physical kidnapping. If you look at the countersurveillance that a lot of executives for Big Companies do, one thing they are told to do is dont share your daily plans with anybody. Take a different route to work every time you go. Dont be an easy target. But if were willingly sharing that information, then were becoming very easy targets. Also things like cyberstalking, which is the new trend, i had it theft, takeover. The rate of Identity Theft is amazing. Its staggering. About a year ago one of the statistics i saw was it was the Fastest Growing nonviolent criminal activity in the world. Theres Something Like i dont know how many millions, but the chance of being a victim of Identity Theft is extremely high. Where do you think they get the information from, some of these data sources, data breaches from these aggregators that have all this information about you. Not only can they create a digital persona, some can create a physical persona and apply for that mortgage, that loan, and in some cases file a tax return that claims the irs owes you money. Tax return fraud is staggering as well. One of the studies said it was 200 increase since last year. Theres nothing worse than going to file your income tax because you can hardly wait to get that 2,000 back only to be told by irs we already cut you a check for 5,000 and sent it basically to your house in new york. I dont live in new york. So who has got my 5,000. Ill take the 5,000 if you want to give it to me but it didnt come to me. Now the fun starts. Now you have to prove that you did not make that return, that it wasnt you. When i say fun, i dont mean fun because its not fun. And theres a very, very high risk now thats going to happen. Can you see not just privacy, theres real World Security concerns. Okay. But they can be used for good. I for one would not want to go back to the days of having to wait three weeks for something to get delivered to my house from a catalog. I love to go online. Much to the chagrin of my wife, i love to buy stuff and have it delivered the next day. Thats cool. I dont want to go back. Purdue, big university. I dont want us to go back to days you had to line up in the gymnasium with long forms and fill everything out by hand. Its nice to do it online. Its nice, even though it can be taken advantage of, to be able to file your tax return online. You dont have to mail it. Streamline health care. Theres been numerous cases where the information thats been aggregated has actually saved somebodys life. In some countries the pharmaceuticals or pharmacies actually have large databases. At least a couple of instances they were able to save somebody from taking two different types of medication that would have killed them combined. They contraindicated each other. They were able to go to the pharmacist and go, wait a minute. Youre taking such and such. You cant take this. That will kill you. Its being used to determine disease outbreaks. Zika, bird flu. People who do that Technology Say finding patient zero, finding the hot spot that started this is really important for counteracting it. In some cases they can find out, because were coming into its the wintertime and flu season happens. The pharmacies can start stocking up, because they can get reports from cdc that says, guess what, folks, indiana is getting hit because people are googling flu symptoms. What do i take for the flu . How long does the flu last . That information is collected and being used to predict. Better start stocking up, another pharmacy because the flu is hitting. Early identification of health concerns. Some of the social media sites have been able to prevent some suicides. They were able through the users and through their own monitoring to determine that information and the attitudes of the individual who had the social media site were becoming very dark and very negative, and they were going into a very bad place and they were able to do early intervention. They were able to call some support groups and prevent somebody from committing suicide. To me, thats a pretty big positive. Public and personal safety, this is fabulous. Tornado warnings in indiana on your phone now. You dont have to buy that darn storm radio that never worked half the time, you couldnt find the batteries for it. The amber alerts. This summer there was a lot of flooding in my area. One day on the way to work im driving up. Because of the way they can do it with geo, wait a minute, right around the corner half mile down the bridge is out. Take a different route. Thats cool information. Id like to know that before im stuck tires deep in water. Yes, theres definitely some good and should be some good. My argument is not the collecting of the data is necessarily bad, my argument is we need to be aware this data is collected. We also need to be aware that we get nothing for free. In order to get the convenience, in order to get the functionality, we have to give something up. The cost of this right now is our privacy, our personal information. As long as were informed consumers and we understand that, then i think we can make good decisions. Quite often we dont think of that. We dont consider what is the cost of giving your phone number out, your information out to anybody. So how do they control it . Definitely control on the active side of the house, isnt it . Maybe you dont post everything in 15minute increments on your social media site. Maybe you let them guess where you are for a half hour, throw them right off. Okay. Maybe you look for something youre really not interested in on google just to throw them right off. In fact, it wasnt technology for Search Engines to do that. It would throw up random search terms, would keep companies, algorithms completely confused because you liked everything from zucchini to eggplants, Mountain Biking to yoga, to monster truck rallies and everything in between. Thats a pretty broad profile. So we can do stuff on the active side. I put this up not because i believe you can actually do it because its always on the site. Use your cash, not your cards. Well, easier said than done. In fact, depending on some cities and some countries where you go, they are not taking your cash, or its an extra charge if you try to pay with your cash, because everything they want electronic. Something that is simple that a lot of us forget to do is keep antivirus, Malware Software updated, not just on your Computer Systems, folks but on the Computer System thats sitting on your hip right now. That smartphone. This is a rhetorical question. Do not put your hand up. How many people actually have antivirus or antimalware virus on their phones . Think about it. Okay . That is a very powerful little computer, a lot of information, including probably your banking now, thats sitting on your hip thats probably wide open. How about on the Technology Side . How about adding blocking technology. Almost every browser has something called incognito mode, which allows you to go out and dont track me is what they use. Use things like cookie cutters, cookie cleaners, proxy router, technology on tour, which has gotten a really bad information. It was created by u. S. Government as a way of securing communication for dissidents and people they had in country and now its gotten a very bad reputation. But the technology in and of itself is simply a way of adding layers to make it very difficult to figure out where youre coming from and what youre doing. So proxy software. Whats coming down the pike . I think you can say this in pretty much one term, internet of things. Everything connected. Everything highly connected. Everything from smart lights, door openers, power meters, smart tvs you can not only talk to but uhoh guess what, it can talk to you as well. Thats bad. Its recording you. Tvs in your living room and elsewhere. Im not sure i want them recording everything. Guess what, the company that did this debate tell consumers, by the way, not only are you talking to it, were listening, and were listening all the time. Whats very interesting with this internet of things is think about it. You can basically now have this smart house collecting all the information on you. You can be basically driving home and your car notifies your garage door to open, which notifies your thermostat to turn on, notifies your lights to start, your coffeemaker. All this information is going back somewhere. Now your cars know a lot about you. The cars have smart technology. They know how fast you were going, whether you actually had brakes put on before the accident or not. This is all internet of things. Internet connected, all sensors. Location services are built into everything now. Everybody wants to know your location. Every company, every piece of technology. Thats so if youre walking in a Shopping Mall and you connect to the wifi in the Shopping Mall, who hears a surprise. You walk by a store and what happens on your phone. Wait a minute, how does it know im standing in front of that store and theres a sale on . Thats the cost of using their technology is they get to spy on you, for lack of a better term. They get to see what youre doing in that store. Everything that has it. That little device thats sitting basically on your hip, geo location in multiple different ways. The car youre driving, geo location. Its interesting because a friend of mine rented a vehicle, was going object a trip to a city he hadnt been to, decided to basically also purchase the gps system that the rental car company had. And the friend is known to have a little bit of a heavy foot. Returns it. No accidents, no tickets, everything is fine. Pays the fee, gets home and finds an additional fine, additional amount on his bill because he had been speeding and they were able to tell. Hmm. Interesting information. Increase in database breaches. As more of our data is collected and more goes into these data repos stories, data aggregators, where do you think the bad guys are going to go after . They are going to go after data, after the basic crown jewels, which is data. What you are seeing is large increase both in health care, the Financial Sector and the education sector. So is privacy really dead . Did we just get over it . Some people think so. Ill leave that up to you to decide. So conclusions. Your digital footprint is huge. Thats a technical term. Huge. Really big. And its not getting smaller. Were not getting less connected, were getting more. Convenience, convenience, everything needs to be connected. It really is more than worrying about what you post on facebook and twitter. Thats a little piece of it. For our kids, we need to make them informed consumers. Let them figure out exactly what is happening with their data and make an informed decision. Yes, it can be used for good and evil. We tend to not think of the risk side and thats really what i want to discuss today. Can you take steps to control it . Yes. Are we going to get rid of Data Collection . No. You cant block it off. What you do need to do and what is being pushed for even in the United States is controlling what happens to your informatio collected. And if you look at the other countries that have privacy acts, that is the main thrust of those privacy acts. Its not that you cant collect data businesses, but you have to be a good steward of that data and it must be informed consent as to what you do with that data, so we can influence our data once it is collected. My parting kind of thought is to me, privacy really isnt dead, its just sleeping. Questions . If youd like to ask a question id ask you to come down here, dr. Rogers will take questions. Well run probably another five or ten minutes so if youd like to time yourselves accordingly, but please, feel free to come down and ask mark a question if youve got one. I think theyre all in a state of shock now. No, ill be the victim since im used to being aclasses. Okay. So basically its a people problem more than a Technology Problem as far as the use of the data, whether good or evil, and then the checks and balances, is it a consumer based approach to enforce those checks and balances or is it a governmental policy regulation approach . Youre right, the data in and of itself isnt a problem with the technologies. Its what we do with it and how it becomes abused. The solution is both. If you look at the countries that have actually passed privacy legislation and privacy acts and u. S. Does not currently have one, most of the other countries that we play with are in with the g7s have it. The thrust of that is both. Its informed consumers. Its a Government Watchdog Group that basically makes people play by the rules and its some, and i hate saying it, its some regulatory bodies or some regulations that have teeth to it if you violate it. Weve seen something similar with hipaa so it is a combination. Its not just you basically have to let consumers, because the consumer model in a lot of cases people arent even aware that this is whats going on, so to have a consumerdriven approach, everybody would have to be an informed consumer. Thats not a reality, so there has to be both sides. There has to be the consumer saying the choice between company a and company b, company a has a privacy policy, says theyre not going to do something with it. Company a has some Privacy Protection and security controls. Company b doesnt. Im going to give my money to this company but there also has to be some regulation and some policy enforcement behind this because really theres no inis enive for anybody to change right now, okay . Other than some kind of negative publicity which tends to go away as soon as the next big whiz bang, you know, function or convenience we want we forget all about privacy again. All right thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the conference. [ applause ] tonight we continue our look at American History tv programs, normally seen weekends here on cspan3. It begins with the discussion on the origins of the cold war, then u. S. Democracy and international relations, and then the legacy of world war ii. American history tv, prime time tonight at 8 00 eastern. Sunday in depth will feature a live discussion on the president of barack obama. Were taking your phone calls, tweets emails and facebook questions. Our Panel Includes april ryan, author of the presidency in black and white my up close view of three president s and race in america princeton professor eddie glaude and Pulitzer Prize winning journalist david maraniss, author of barack obama the story. Watch live from noon to 3 00 p. M. Eastern on book tv cspan2 on sunday. The president ial inauguration of donald trump is friday january 20th. Cspan will have live coverage of all the days events and ceremonies. Watch live on cspan and cspan. Org and listen live on the free cspan radio app. Next, journalists talk about the challenges of covering emerging technology in Silicon Valley and around the country. Panelists include wired magazines editor, New York Times deputy tech editor, and usa todays digital editor. This is from the annual dawn or Doom Technology conference at Purdue University in West Lafayette, indiana. Its about 50 minutes. Good morning, im jerry mccartney, Purdue University cio and the director of the dawn or doom conference and id like to welcome you to this years Opening Event for this years dawn or doom. This is our third year and were very excited about what the event has become. Purdue is a gloenl leader in many areas of technology and we think its important to have these types of discussions well be having over the next couple of days about what happens with these technologies when they move from our labs into the real world. Were pleased to have a great group of journalists join us this morning, so you can hear about the industry that keeps us all informed about what is going on in science and technology. I also want to welcome cspan, who is here today recording this and other sessions for broadcast later this year. So let me take a minute to introduce our panelists. Im pleased to introduce Natalie Diblasio, the digital editor at usa today where she manages the publications, social media strategy on the west coast, reports on technology and breaking news and writes a column called launched. Launched. Focussed on the intersection of tech and culture in the bay area. As a report he were shes covered everything from protests at political conventions to tragedies including the aurora theater massacre. Superstorm sandy and the Boston Marathon bombings. Natalie will be leaving the Conference Tomorrow to attend the Vice President ial debate so she has a busy week. Jared council joined the Indianapolis Business Journal september 14 and covers technology and finance, before joining the ibj he works as a reporter on jobs in Southern Indiana and coastal virginia covering crime, City Government and defense contracting. Hes won statewide journalism awards in virginia and indiana for both investigative reporting and technology reporting. Emily dreyfuss is wireds news and opinion editor. She leads wireds new National Affairs coverage focusing on social upheavals that will shape the future of america. Before landing at wired her previous endeavors including acting as the managing editor of cnet social media and home page as well as executive producing rumor has it. Emily will be speaking a second time today here in fowler hall at about 3 30 about her experiences working in the San Francisco offices of wired as a telepresence robot, and finally but certainly not leastly, quinn tin hardy the Deputy Technology editor for the New York Times and former executive for forbes media. Hardy began his career at the wall street journal and written cover stories on diverse topics such as the internet, africa, finance and surprise hardware and software, management, satellite energy and the marijuana industry. Congratulations. Which accounts for my a. D. D. He began his career as an International Publisher and lived and worked in a dozen countries including japan, singapore and the united kingdom. Katey steinmetz was not able to be here today. She is however still going to be one of the finalist judges for the student writing contest and we hope katy can join us next year. Our moderator today is the widely known steve tally. He is an author of two books, a former columnist for mens fitness magazine and form he were Magazine Editor at 3030 esquire. He is our senior strategist for s. T. E. M. And public affairs. Please silent your devices but dont put them away. We hope to see you tweeting to dawnordoom or posting to facebook, snapchat, instagram or whatever local poison you prefer and please, join me in welcoming our journalists, thank you. Thank you, gerry, thanks to everyone for coming. Well start off with what i hope is a very easy question. So starting with jared, could you tell us a little bit about where you went to school and just a bit about your current job, what do you do. Okay, yes, so 28 years old, born in philly, went to Hampton University which is not far from virginia beach, and graduated in 2010, and so ive been in journalism for about six years now and i think ive been a geek for about 28 years and i just Love Learning about stuff and i kind of got introduced to journalism as heres a way to learn about stuff and tell others about what you learn and get paid for it all. So thats kind of what attracted me. And like i said, i graduated in 2010, worked in Southern Indiana, my first job out of college, covered crime in government there, and then moved to virginia in 2012, and covered defense contracting, tourism, so on and so forth, and two years after that finally moved to indianapolis and it was my first time covering anything related to technology. I dont have any background in tech, didnt get a degree in tech but i knew how to talk to people and tell stories, and was really attracted to the field because of, you know, the promise and the perils, as this whole conference is about. These days, i cover, i kind of look at it in two ways. I cover not only the i guess technology business, so software that businesses use to run their businesses better, whether its marketing or procurement, so i cover all of that, but also the business of technology in terms of how do you start a tech company, how do you raise money for it and ultimately how do you chart a path to a successful exit, so thats what i do. Natalie . Hi, im Natalie Diblasio with usa today. I have moved to San Francisco to work with our Technology Team in december. Before that, i was in charge of a fitness publication in virginia that was online only and before that i was with usa today for about three and a half years as a breaking news reporter. I went to college at the university of vermont in burlington which is beautiful, everyone should go, and my job now, okay, so i work in a bureau of usa today, which has significantly fewer people than our headquarters and i write about tech and i also write about breaking news and help manage our paper, social media strategy but also work with the tech reporters and our west coast reporters to make sure that were optimizing everybodys social Media Presence and helping everyone kind of elevate themselves on as many platforms as we can. All right, thanks. Emily . Hi, im Emily Dreyfuss with wired magazine. I went to Wesleyan University in connecticut, i was an english major and i stumbled into journalism because i had no idea what somebody whose only skill is to write does after college. I became a reporter, i got paid very little to be frank my first job as a reporter at a tiny newspaper on the coast of connecticut and i was the only staff writer on the paper. I had zero experience but i wrote about crime, which we actually did have some. I had to cover a standoff in the street but i also covered the building of the new skate park and i was the restaurant reviewer and the playhouse reviewer i did a little bit of everything and from there i fell in love with journalism and became an editor. I moved out to San Francisco as well and thats how i found my way into technology jurnism because San Francisco is where tech is everywhere and i was not, i didnt identify as a geek. I thought im going to get out of this and get back to the literary arts. I quickly realized technology is everywhere and inescapable and i bring the perspective of the reluctant technologist to my coverage of the tech world. Whether youre super into it, a gadget hound or not, technology is happening to you so thats sort of the perspective i like to take on all the coverage and at wired im trying to take that perspective how Technology Hits every aspect in our society and particularly right now looking at the president ial election. Thanks and quinn tin . I definitely went to a couple of colleges and have some degrees but i think theres a couple other things that are sort of more interesting where my work is concerned. One is im Third Generation on both sides of my family in journalism cartoonists and writers and businesspeople. Wow. Watching whats happening now is of interest and i spent 13 years overseas as a traveling salesman and i was a correspondent in tokyo back in the days we were worried american High School Students werent learning enough japanese, that gives you perspective. In some sense im back in the United States, Something Like a Foreign Correspondent and thats a really appropriate stance to take in the kind of thing im covering now. Technology is now shot through everywhere. The internet used to be a place. Now the internet pervades all of society, the physical world, the way we think about things in some ways has the tropes of the internet in important ways. I like to try to look at a breaking phenomenon and more is to go to nonobvious places where its taking hold by using that off center approaching shifting peoples views. Couple years ago i wrote about a family farm in indiana that had to become so data smart or i went to north dakota and learned about the Drone Industry outside of grand forks or i went down to texas and wrote what its like to be a High School Football coach in an age where everything is being videoed all the time and youre getting all these instant messages from people with 30second shots of their kid doing a tackle. Its an entirely different dynamic. So thats what i do. Thank you, quentin. Ill come right back to you. So what do you like most about your job . What motivates you to go back into the Office Every Day . Aside from the golf umbrella . I get paid to go to school, right, its fantastic. I get up in the morning and i think whats the coolest thing i can think about today and who can i talk to about it, and people still pick up the phone when the press calls. They want to be understood, its a tremendous honor and responsibility to try to present that fairly. Its just a blast. That sounds great. Emily even if youre going into the office as a robot, what motivates you to go in . Yes, i think that just the fact that all i have to do all day is think. I just get to think, be curious about things and i read the news. I wake up in the morning and i read the New York Times, i read usa today, i read local newspapers and then i think what do i have to say about that and what can we contribute and where else can we look and what more is there to say and thats just so fun. Natalie . I have a lot of questions all the time. With my friends in social situations stop interrogating the uber driver about whatever im interested in so when i get to work im allowed to kind of indulge my neverending questioning self. I think the same thing, every day i get to go and learn something new. The cool thing about journalism is you go to work every kay and honing this storytelling skill, no matter what platform youre telling the story on. Every day is different because the news is totally different so its the perfect amount of working towards something and working towards something completely different every day. Thanks, and jared . Id agree with all of that, but i think more specifically i like where im at in journalism in terms of being able to cover the Technology Industry in Central Indiana. For decades im sure as many of you know, the tech scene here in terms of startups and financing has really been a desert out here and back in the late 18, sorry, 1980s it started to change a little bit with folks like bob compton, and don brown, interactive intelligence really kind of planting the seeds for this ecosystem to grow and today, i feel like im on the front end of a growth story with technology here in Central Indiana. Angies list is a household time in and publicly traded company, interactive intelligence, not so much a household name, they just had a 1. 4 billion exit a month or two ago and the biggest story is exact target which started out as a digital Marketing Company aimed at laundromats to now or sorry a few years ago selling to sales force for 2. 5 billion and were still seeing the ripple effects of all of that in terms of folks going out and becoming investors or starting their own companies or just lending their skills to startups. So i appreciate being able to sort of be the scribe to cover all of that. There are a lot of exciting things happening in Central Indiana although we put our own spin on it, a lot of ag tech for example is going on. So this is for anyone, is there anything about your job that surprises you or has surprised you when you went to your current position . So anyone just jump in. Ive got some. Okay. Theres a lot of things that surprise me. I think the first thing is how very different our audiences are, depending on what platform were reaching them on. People that find usa today on snapchat are consuming news completely differently and are not also consuming news on their mobile app, same thing for tablet app users or mobile web, facebook, people that are reading us and no matter where theyre reading us theyre reading us for a different reason and also when it comes to understanding the content, people are all over the map as far as if theyre really, really already interested in something or totally new to a topic, so were finding that were doing, like for example when the fbi wanted to get into the iphone after the San Bernardino shooting, we wrote a new story about how that happened and wrote an explainer about why it would even matter that breaking into a phone might have consequences down the road and then we needed to write a different type of explainer and needed to write a story how a group were reacting to it. Also because people understand completely Different Things about a topic and because we have such a broad audience, i was surprised to realize how many different ways we need to write and frame things, to reach everyone where theyre at on the platforms that theyre at. Thats interesting. I didnt expect that. Quinton, the New York Times has obviously seen an enormous amount of change and is a leader in changing journalism, so how might you answer that . What sort of surprises you . Oh, what surprises me, what surprises me would be the appetite the readers have for difficult subjects. They always have, but it used to be Chinese Foreign policy or it was very politically driven, and people are extremely hungry to know more about what tech is doing. Its transforming everything in the world so theyre willing to go very deep and learn things with much more depth than you would expect, and then i think your question is also about the times itself and whats sur pridesing in that. Well the amount of video, we get just fantastic designers, the experiments in animation, which i think is extremely powerful, the way were having different sorts of relationships with the reader, much more direct, where various newsletters and email reminders and whatever become extremely important in having this kind of bilateral relationship. Theres a feature called what were reading, where various reporters will pick out things elsewhere on the web, and people are interested in that. They want to know sort of what else am i looking at. This is a very popular item, so what thats telling you is, you know, its really nice to people value my opinion or whatever but theyre also developing this relationship with the reporter at the paper, where it used to be a relationship with the paper generally and were going to see where that goes. That is interesting and i know a lot of outlets encourage people to have their own twitter presence and their own social Media Presence. Within reason. Ill fill that in offline if yall want. Can i say something, steve . Yes, please do. I dont know if this is really a surprise but it never ceases to astonish me and thats the lack of diversity in this field. Im the first black reporter at my paper, which was started in 1980, and rarely do i encounter folks of color covering a beat or in positions like me, you know, covering this industry. Jared, why do you think that is . I dont know, its probably a whole host of reasons. Take blacks for example, were 13 of the country but when you look at diversity surveys from google and facebook, we make up 2 , 3 of that in some of the companies and its not, i mean, i wouldnt put all minorities there, because we see i think a proportionate number of asians or indians, but with blacks and hispanics its just, you know, were largely missing, and in terms of the reasons, like i said, we could kind of have a whole Panel Discussion on that, but i think one reason might be wealth. When you look at africanamerican wealth, its just a slice of, you know, what caucasian wealth is in this country and that matters when you have an idea to start a company but you dont have any friends or family to turn to, to write that first check, and it matters when you want to pursue an idea but you dont have the luxury to take off work or quit your job so i think thats one reason, and then you know, why that is not exactly sure but i think the way we can kind of turn the tide or at least, you know, begin to and im sure, there are tons of efforts already under way, but i think people want to be what they see, so if we have more minorities in executive positions, Tristan Walker is one person that comes to mind, he runs bevel, the shaving company, you know, people, it actually gives somebody something to emulate, you know. I think by and large color shouldnt matter but it does, and if you dont have folks in an industry, again that can serve as examples for people to aspire to be, i mean its a tough sell. I think youre right. I appreciate you bringing that up and youre right, we should have a panel on that and maybe next year we will. Can i dovetail . Sure. I think its a really important point and its not just a problem in the industries we cover but eight a really big problem in journalism itself and i think youre really right to bring up the barrier and the cost of entry and journalism is like that. Our industry is dependent on unpaid internships as a way in and in order to be able to afford to take an unpaid internship you need to have the Family Support and the Institutional Support behind you to not make money for three months or in my case my first writing gig that i was mentioning in connecticut that started as an unpaid internship after college and then it turned into a staff writing position where i got paid money and that i think really contributes to a lack of diversity as a barrier to entry into the field and then we can, theres a million problems that percolate up and result in a whiteness in journalism, but another thing is the segregation of our networks, and how we find people to work with, and because there is this whiteness at the very beginning, then the other people that you have worked with maybe are not a person of color, and so then when youre thinking of hiring someone for a job you reach out to your own network and we are a diverse country but a segregated country for a multitude of reasons and people whether they intend to or not with absolutely benign neglect reach out to those that they know and we know people who are like us, and we insulate ourselves and theres a big problem. We also in journalism have this thing where we want to cover all topics but if you look at any of our organizations, we cover the topics that as we said are interesting to us, and when we wake up in the morning and were like what is the thing that i want to talk about today . This is why its vitally important that we have different types of people in the newsroom asking those questions because whats interesting to me and whats interesting to quentin is going to be different than whats interesting to somebody else, and were grappling with this at wired. Its a real problem and we desperately need other voices in the newsroom and i have no idea what the solution is other than to say if youre a nonwhite man wanting to go into journalism, please do, please. Very good gerry. Its a very important topic and we will be returning to that youre right that, deserves more attention. So i think everyone here except for emily who works as a tech publication sort of has the beat of tech and i guess, emily, thats your publication. Okay, thats fair. Okay. But as we read the news these days it seems that tech is everywhere. In politics the stories about email servers and Cyber Security, so many business stories are about some new tech development. Is there still a tech beat or are all reporters tech reporters now . I think because so much conversation happens on social media, and were considering social media tech, weve talked about that in our newsroom a little bit about what is new technology and are these companies, these social communication platforms tech, and yes, weve decided that they are, and right now, in the evenings, the day of politics will happen, and then the night of twitter and facebook and like reddit commentary descends on earth, and then what the night stories end up being is what people are talking about in addition to the what happens is, you know, the news happens and then people talk about it and we do on the street interviews but also the big conversations, strangers are arguing with each other fiercely on social media and that is whats happening. Almost like we need to cover conversation socially as a metro beat, like whats everyone saying in new york city . Whats everyone saying in the twitterverse . In that way theres always a tech infused social feedback piece. I think a social media metro desk would be fascinating, a metro area. So quentin let me spend a sec on that. I think in a world where 98 i think of wall street trading is computerdriven or where the president is putting less money into an Aircraft Carrier and more money into the cia and the nsa or where agriculture is about, involves genetic modifications of crops, yes, everything is a tech story and every reporter thinks theyre a tech reporter which is fantastic for people like me and natalie who spend our lives sweating bullets to get this stuff right. Right. And jared, too. Everybody thinks i got that one. I really wish youd talk to me about that but thats just family stuff, we wont talk about that. There is still tech reporting though which is spotting that crossover of science and engineering into commerce and the fuzzy area where things are developed and vetted. Theyre hopeful theyre attaching to the world in some novel way, theyre not baked in yet and thats a very rich patch right now. So to work in tech journalism to be a tech editor or tech reporter do you need a background in engineering Computer Science or is it more about the reporting . I think it depends on what part of tech youre doing. For me i dont ais have a background in it and i am a tech editor. I assign stories and i write stories on Cyber Security, and robotics in the future of work, and i learned on the job. I definitely need to have Technical Skills because i, but i honed them at cnet and at wired but i do think some of the best reporters we have, lets say in Cyber Security, which is a very complicated topic and in order to explain, you know, an air gap tack of a computer, you really need to know a lot about engineering and how things work. One of our reporters does have technical background and the other one doesnt but theyre equally adept in a conversation and thats because as a reporter, you have access to talking to all the experts, so as long as you know which questions to ask and you can learn, youre good at learning, i dont think you do need to, but it depends. If its very technical it would probably be very helpful. I think having a variety of reporters with a variety of different background really helps, too. I have this column and what its about is that i just moved to the bay area and im a millenial and every millenial that is interested in tech wants to move to the bay area and its expensive and ridiculous and when youre there, its like being in a different world because everyone talks about and values and understands these things that dont matter everywhere else, or arent happening yet. So my stories are coming at it from that lens. Its like an outsiders view of an insiders place where everything is kind of in latin in this weird new tech way, but that being said, weve got like our Cyber Security reporter is brilliant and shes great and when i was tasked with helping with a story i didnt even realize what i didnt know. Right. So having her around to kind of bounce ideas off of or to handle some of it is was wonderful. Right. So i do think it helps to have all of it, because our readers are looking for all different kinds of understanding of technology. So my next question may be a little bit of inside baseball, but science writing and medical writing are recognized as specialty fields within journalism and they have their own conventions and things like in medical writing the rule when you can write about studies. There is a National Association of science writers, there is a medical Writers Association and as far as i know theres no technology Writers Association, National Association. Is Technology Writing by technology you mean computers basically, right, because its such a broad term. And thats what im sort of what im asking. Is technology so broad that there is not a specialty field of Technology Writing . Do you think there will be or do you think as technology continues to spread, that as we were saying earlier that perhaps every writer will be a technology writer, so do you think it will become its own specialty . I think it used to be its own specialty and it isnt anymore. You know, back 20 years ago when cnet was first started and wired was first started it was very much a nearby thing that was focused on gadgets and computers and how we were going to shrink down chips and what the internet was going to do, and now as quentin said earlier, that is a pervasive part of all of life and you know at wired people are constantly referring to wired as a technology magazine, though thats not really how we see ourselves anymore only because we see technology as so much a part of society we think were covering a little bit of everything and we have an Entertainment Desk and National Affairs desk and a science desk and science writing which is a very intense specialty because its hard to understand what they are publishing in science nature and journals that you need a specialized person to interpret it. We have that all under the umbrella of what i think you might consider tech writing. Theres some people in the audience right now looking at their phones, these highend Consumer Products that were manufactured in china by cheap laborer, checking social media so theyre going to these organizations some of which are inside amazon web services, these enormous Cloud Computing systems and theyre using that computing to map social relationships using artificial intelligence. Five different tech stories just in somebody looking at their phone. Its kind of big. Where do i stop . Didnt mean to call you out. We encurrently you all to be posting on social media about this panel. Basically i havent checked my twitter in 20 minutes now and its kind of making my nervous. Its a real change for events like this, where it used to be people were on their phones you thought you were failing and not on their phones you know something is going wrong because theyre not posting anything. There are so many product developments and Company Announcements in technology i dont know how yall keep up. With all this daily churn, do you think there are Technology Stories that youre missing or you would like, you wish you had more time to spend covering . Yep. Yes. Are you asking me if im paranoid . Yes. No way paranoid. I think theres so much happening, so many people developing so many cool things and so many people that are trying to get so because facebook was successful, everyone that is in the startup world dreams of being the next facebook so as soon as they have an idea that resonates with anyone they are running with it. I probably get like which takes us to therapists. 300 pitches a day from startups. And hampton creek. Goodness, at least it was a product. True. Sorry. We were getting inside. But thats actually the hazard, like you can get so far into hoping its going to be the next thing. Its called falling in love with your source, you know . Oh this has got to be true. This guy is so great. I love this thing, you know, and its kind of an example of falling in love with your source and hoping you spotted the next best thing. I almost wanted to you all know what im talking about . Take bets at what point it would be mentioned in this panel. Milliondollar whatever. It was a company that the coverage took a different direction in the spring and exposed when everything turned out to be fake. And i mean the thing its a great idea if it would work everyone would want it to be true. Z puppies that sweat vodka would, too. Puppiesthatsweatvodka. Silicon valley is promising to make the world a better place thats the narrative sold to us and as tech journalists one of the things we have to be on guard for is people selling a false promise. Its sort of easy sometimes to see it because places will oversell something that is so absurd by banal that you would never give them the credit that they want. Theyll say like its almost like that 30 rock ad where they were like do you ever have trouble putting bread in the toaster . And, no, no one has ever had that problem. And Silicon Valley is often trying to solve problems that dont exist just to make your life more convenient but ferenos was a blood Technology Company saying there is a high cost of energy to getting medical tests done and if we could make this easier and we should be able to, because science has all of these abilities now and do it at home and make it fast and streamline it, that would be great and we as journalists, a lot of us, maybe not particularly on the stage but our colleagues and our whole industry was like thats a great idea. And we let them tell it. So jared, im going to come to you with the next question but im not picking on you, not trying to imply thing. Do you think tech journalists, and again, because of the speed of news, do you think tech journalists sometimes end up erring on the side of being cheerleaders for industry . Well two things. First i would say, i think sometimes we in the Media Business at large but especially in technology, we have short Attention Spans and well cover something because whats new and whats next and its hot, and then we wont really follow it through. I think one example of that, no offense to anybody here but when 3d printing was hot a few years ago, it was just kind of like the wave and hey this is going to change lives dramatically in the next few years and we havent really seen that and i think for the most part a lot of these technologies they take time to gain traction, and they can be the best idea in the world, but if the moment isnt right, then the moment isnt right and look at Virtual Reality technology in the 90s. The window wasnt opened yet and i think sometimes we can just again kind of focus all this attention and say hey, this is the next big thing, when it really has yet to prove itself out. So as far as being cheerleaders, like i think that sometimes the stories that were telling arent really that sexy so we have to spice it up and get peoples attention and you know, whether its selfdriving cars or drones or whatever, and i dont think were being cheerleaders by doing that, as long as we can talk about the reality and the hurdles that are present for whatever the technology is. Just to go ahead, natalie. I was going to say that i think that even without trying to be a cheerleader, just writing about a company in a way that isnt immediately condemning it is cheerleading in a way, because there are so Many Companies and everyone is just fighting to get noticed, and if your name is in a headline, the way social media is working, people arent necessarily reading the story, theyre just seeing the headline if your company is named youre higher in search results and your Facebook Page will get more views so just by getting a lot of pitches and writing about the ones that might be interesting by picking one and not the other were giving that company a giant like up over its competitors and in that way its not cheerleading but it is like i mean just a properly timed interesting enough startup falling in your lap can change the game for that startup. I think like emily just to follow through on what jared was saying, theres this really interesting kind of counter dynamic that journalists fall into a lot. Shortly after dinosaurs ruled the earth i was at the wall street journal and this guy Don Valentine came n hes i big bc in those days and he said you guys, every one of you, you know, you find something and it becomes big and you hype it up, and then it crashes, and you all laugh at it, how could it be so stupid and then you miss the part where it just kind of finds its way back and stitches itself into society and is really important. Ive kind of taken that to heart. Im guilty of it for sure but its like, you know, now thearnos is on its knees but somebody is going to create a spot for disease tracking and then were going to not recognize that something akin to magic has just occurred in the world. But i think as emily said these are things that at least attempting to solve problems in our society, problems that we have globally and we want to see progress, and i think a lot of us are on team dawn. We want to see Human Progress and i think that sort of comes out sometimes in our writing. We want to see big progress, we like big changes and no one is excited about clicking ahead. Its like we are taking a substantial step forward in the right direction, on this front kind of we think. Right. And so thats not what, thats just what youre saying. The kind of incremental. Thats also true of the people we depend on to write the stories. People dont want to tell a process story. Im constantly saying to scientists i want to hear the story about all the failures that went into you come to this stofrry. Because they will publish a paper that took them ten years to get to this result and i find it fascinating to hear of all the ups and downs and disappointments and the time they thought the cells would give them the data they wanted and they didnt but individuals, researchers and companies in particular dont want to talk about that because thats bad press. I once covered a guy who was building a repository of failures so other scientists could see thats what didnt work and im trying this thing. There was a social network, im going to try this. Anybody else ever tried it . Yeah, it failed, this guy in spain did it, forget it, doesnt go. Cool, that would be so helpful. Just the other thing is were kind of covering delusional people, because you have to be. If you really knew the odds on what a startup is and how often they fail, you wouldnt get out of bed. And the technology theyre making has been so transformative that they see shaping the world, they dont just see building a product. Elon musk gets up last week. Oh my goodness. And says, heres how im going to colonize mars and everybodys like, okay. But he might just be the lunatic to do it