Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On Flint Michigan Water Contamination 20160317

At any time. We have the third in a series of hearings that were doing, examining the federal administration of the Safe Drinking Water act dealing with the crisis in flint, michigan. Appreciate the witnesses here today. I also appreciate the strong Public Participation and interest in this hearing. I would remind those that are participating that this is a congressional hearing. We would appreciate your proper, the proper decorum in this room. There are to be no shows of expression, positive or negative, and we would appreciate your help in that way. Let me make just a few observations, and then well turn it over to the Ranking Member and get right to the questioning here. There are people still today in flint, michigan, who are waking up this morning, they cant drink the water and they cant take a shower. Theyre using a bottle of water to drink and a bottle of water to take a shower and i cant even imagine my family having to go through that here in the United States of america. I was able to visit flint with a number of members here this past saturday, and this is a crisis, and it affects a lot of people. And i think these hearings have been very productive. There are people that have been exposed to drinking leadlalsed water for more than a year, and this is i believe a failure at every level and i think most everybody has acknowledged that. Lets remember that flint city was a city in crisis, financial situation was dire at best. People of michigan made a decision, Emergency Managers were put into place, to save dollars and i think the idea, desire to reduce the rate of the cost of water as well as improve the quality of water was where this started but not where it ended up. At every level in michigan, from the city to the department of public works, to the emergency manager, to the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality there were failures, questions about the accuracy of the data that was provided. Some of those people were responsible and reported to the governor of michigan. I appreciate the governor volunteering and suggesting that coming here and testifying before congress to tell his version of the story was an appropriate thing and governor, i appreciate your willingness to come talk to this body, because there are some serious questions and we do want to get to the bottom of it. The Congress Also has responsibility and jurisdiction over the epa, the funding of the epa obviously being a federal organization. We have jurisdiction and its proper and important that we look at things from that perspective as well. In february, leanne walters, whoa is here in the audience with us today, finally the go fed up with what was going on, managed to get a hold of the epa and miguel del toro showed up on scene and started to test the water. He should be highly commended for his actions and the things that he did, and i appreciate leighanne walters and her family stepping forward and cant even express i cant even imagine what her and her family and son who we met and got her picture with, what theyve been through. By june the epa clearly knew this was a crisis. They absolutely knew that this was a problem. And susan hedmond is the administrator for region five and definitively knew there was a problem. The mayor at the time in flint asked what had happened, is the water safe to drink. He was told dont pay no attention to the report that was written by the epa, and actually went on local television and told people it was safe to drink the water. Move forward to september 24th, one of the more troubling things i want to put up this graphic. This is an internal email within the epa talking about susan hedmond, perhaps she, susan hedmond already knows this but im not sure flint is the community we want to go out own a limb for, end quote. Take that down. Thats one of the more offensive concerning things ive seen. Depressed economically, going through their own economic crisis, and theres internal discussion at the epa deciding whether or not who we should go out on a limb for. Days later the epa administrator said miss hedmonds work was very encouraging. Gina mccarthy said theyre making great progress, but it wasnt until january of 2016 the epa actually took definitive action. The day after that, susan hedmond the reenlgor five administrator resigns. Later asked about that action, Gina Mccarthy the epa administrator said that that resignation was courageous, courageous. Thats something were going to talk about here today. Ive seen a lot of things before this committee, but ive got to tell you, this lack of action here, the lack of letting people know, so they can make an informed decision, is very concerning. Its very concerning. Lets now recognize the Ranking Member mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. And i, too, agree that this is a tragic situation. But lets be clear. This is not just on the epa. Its much bigger than that. So i take a moment first of all to thank leanne walters, professor edwards and to the people of flint, many of whom have come here today. Theyre lined all outside these walls, unable to get in, and probably feeling left out. But they probably felt left out for a long time. So, mr. Chairman, i take this moment to thank you. You didnt have to do this. I asked you for a hearing, and you granted us three hearings, and i really appreciate that. You see, because i live in a neighborhood where lead is a problem. Im very sensitive to this issue, described as running the state of michigan like a business, well, what if this was a business . What if a ceo ran a company that sold toys, laced with lead, that children put in their mouths . What if those children were poisoned as a result, and what if that ceo ignored warnings for more than a year as those kids got sicker and sicker and sicker . Theres no doubt in my mind that if a corporate ceo did what Governor Snyders administration has done, he would be hauled up on criminal charges. The board of directors would throw him out, and the shareholders would revolt. This is some of what is happening now to Governor Snyder. The special counsel for the state Attorney Generals Office has launched an investigation, and he says, i didnt say this, he says, the state officials could face charges including breach of duty, gross negligence or even manslaughter, charges he says and i quote not farfetched, end of quote. On our committee weve obtained documents showing that people all around the governor, including his chief of staff, were sounding the alarms but either ignored them or didnt hear them. So we are talking about quotes, lets talk about them. In october 2014, the governors top Legal Adviser had warned that flint should, and i quote, get back on the detroit system as a stop gap as soon as possible before this thing is too far out of control, end of quote. Thats the chief of staff. In march of 2015, the governors own chief of staff that was his Legal Adviser but his chief of staff said in march of 2015, if we procrastinate any longer in doing something direct, well really well have real trouble, end of quote, thats from the chief of staff, and in july the chief of staff again warned Flint Residents are concerned and rightfully so about the lead studies they are receiving, they are basically getting blown off by us, end of quote. The document reveals failures at every level, led by Governor Snyders handpicked appointees and the governors fingerprints are all over this. His department of Environmental Quality, his department of Human Services, his inner circle of top aides, his press staff, his chief of staff, and of course the Emergency Managers the governor put in charge of flint. There will be now be an entire generation, an entire generation of children who suffer from brain damage, learning disabilities and many other horrible effects of lead poisoning that were inflicted on them by Governor Snyders administration. There will be many children, mr. Chairman, who will sit in the second and third grade and will not be able to read the words see spot run, and wont know why, but the reason why is because theres lead in their veins. Now republicans are desperately trying to blame everything on the epa. So let me say this. I agree that the epa should have done more. They should have rushed in sooner to rescue the people of michigan from Governor Snyders vindictive administration and his utter incompetence at every level. Governor snyders administration has primary responsibility for enforcement under the Safe Drinking Water act. Not the epa. Governor snyders administration chose to switch to the flint river for a source of water. Not the epa. Governor snyders Administration Ignored Warnings from the flint Water Treatment plant supervisor not to go forward with the switch, not the epa. Governor snyders administration falsely told the city of flint that Corrosion Control was unnecessary, not the epa. Governor snyders administration delayed Corrosion Control for months and harmed thousands of additional people in the process. Not the epa. Governor snyders administration overruled the flint City Councils vote to return to clean detroit water, not the epa. As i close, so yes, i agree, the epa should have snatched control out of Governor Snyders hands even sooner than they did, but Governor Snyders administration caused this horrific disaster, on the children of flint. On the governors website his motto is, and i quote, reinventing michigan, getting it right, getting it done, end of quote. Its hard to imagine a more misleading slogan. It also says this, and i quote, we will learn from this experience, end of quote, and so as i said earlier, in the other hearing, these children, when we are dead, when we are dead and gone, these children will suffer for what we failed to do, and so mr. Chairman, as ive said to you before, we have to be the last line of defense. We have to be it, because generations yet unborn will suffer, but weve got to do everything in our power to mitigate that. I look forward to the hearing, and i yield back. I thank the gentlemen. Well hold the record open for five legislative days for any members who would like to submit a written statement. Pleased to welcome the honorable Governor Snyder and Gina Mccarthy, administrator for the Environmental Protection agency. Pursuant to Committee Rules if you would both rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony youre about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth . Thank you. Let the record reflect that both witnesses answered in the affirmative. We normally have a fiveminute rule but you areal with come to take the time that you need for your verbal comments and your entire written statement will be made part of the record. Governor snyder, you are now recognized. Mr. Chairman chaffetz, ranking number cummings and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about the crisis in flint and the actions we are taking to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Let me be blunt. This was a failure of government at all levels, local, state, and federal officials. We all failed the families of flint. This isnt about politics nor partisanship. Im not going to point fingers or shift blame. Theres plenty of that to share, and neither will help the people of flint. Not a day or night goes by that this tragedy doesnt weigh on my mind, the questions i should have asked, the answers i should have demanded, how i could have prevented this. Thats why im so committed to delivering permanent longterm solutions and clean, Safe Drinking Water that every michigan citizen deserves. Today ill report what weve done, what were doing, and what we will do to deliver real results and real relief to the families of flint. But before going through the facts, i want to express my profound gratitude for the help and heroism of professor mark edwards, dr. Mona ana atiia and flint resident leanne walters. They were among the first to sound the alarm about the failures of government and the crisis afflicting the flint community. Here are the facts. From the day the city of flint began using the flint river as an interim water supply on april 25th, 2014, and repeatedly after that, the department of Environmental Quality assured us that flints water was safe. It wasnt. A water expert at the federal epa tried to raise the alarm in 2015 and he was silenced. It was on october 1st, 2015 that i learned that our state experts were wrong. Flints water had Dangerous Levels of lead. On that day, i took immediate action. First we quickly reconnected to the detroit water supply to begin sealing the damaged pipes. Second, i had the Immediate Distribution of water filters and extensive blood level testing in schools and homes to identify those at highest risk so they could receive health care, nutrition and additional support. Third, we deployed 67 million to address both short term needs and longterm solutions. Our focus and our priority is on both Short Term Health and longterm safety. This includes diagnostic testing, nurse visits and environmental assessments in the home to treat any child with high lead levels. This is only the beginning. Right now were in the appropriations process for an additional 165 million to deliver permanent longterm solutions. I urge congress to pass the bipartisan bill for aiding flint immediately so we can further protect the health and safety of Flint Residents and families from identifying every pipe that must be replaced to providing longterm medical support. Were working with local leaders like karen weaver and representatives here in washington to deliver the assistance our citizens deserve. We are holding those who failed accountable, and were being open with the public about how these failures came about, including releasing my emails and my staff emails related to this water crisis. We are in the process of publicly releasing relevant documents from the state agencies involved, so the people will have an open, honest assessment of what happened and what were doing to fix it. We also began a thorough investigation of what went wrong. Weve uncovered systematic failures at the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality. The fact is, bureaucrats created a culture that valued technical competence over common sense, and the result was the lead was leaching into the residents water. Thats why im committed to a complete and comprehensive change in State Government that puts Public Health and safety first and why ive called for a thorough investigation of the Michigan Department of health and Human Services by the Auditor General and Inspector General. Were taking responsibility in michigan, and were taking action and thats absolutely essential here in washington, too. Inefficient, ineffective and unaccountable bureaucrats at the epa allowed this disaster to continue unnecessarily. Im glad to be sitting next to the administrator from the epa because all must acknowledge our responsibility and be held accountable. I do want to thank miguel del toro, a water specialist at the epa, who spoke up early about the crisis, tragically his superiors at the epa told local leaders in flint to ignore his call for action. The truth is, there are many communities with potentially dangerous lead problems, and if the epa and the deq do not change and the dumb and dangerous federal led and copper rule is not changed, then this tragedy will befall other american cities. Professor edwards has been sounding this alarm for years and i look forward to joining with him to address this failure of government. Im grateful to have been elected to serve the people of michigan. I understand their anger. Ive been humbled by this experience and im going to make flint and every community in michigan a better place to live. We have a lot to learn and we have a lot to do. I close with a simple plea partner with me in fixing this, not just for the people of flint, but for the people all over the country. Ranking member cummings is right. The American People this is america, and this should never have happened. The American People deserve rules that make sense and professionals to enforce them who know that health and safety are urgent matters. I can make sure that happens in michigan. You can make sure it happens for every american. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Thank you, governor. I now recognize the administrator of the epa, ms. Mccarthy. Youre now recognized. Good morning, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member cummings, distinguished members of the committee. I thank you for the opportunity to testify about epas response to the Drinking Water crisis in flint, michigan. I want to start by saying that what happened in flint should never have happened, and can never be allowed to happen again. The crisis that we are seeing is a result of a stateappointed emergency manager deciding that that city would stop purchasing treated water that it had been successfully relying on for 50 years, and instead switch to an untreated source for the simple reason that they wanted to save money. The state of michigan approved that decision without requiring Corrosion Control treatment, without Corrosion Control lead leached from the pipes and fittings and fixtures in homes and businesses, and industries, and it leached into the Drinking Water. These decisions are what resulted in Flint Residents being exposed to dangerously high levels of lead. Now under the safe water, the Safe Drinking Water act, Congress Gives states the primary responsibility to enforce Drinking Water rules for the nations approximately 152,000 Water Systems, but epa has oversight authority. Typically epa has strong relationships with our states, and we work with them under this act. But looking back on flint, from day one, the state provided our Regional Office with confusing, incomplete, and absolutely incorrect information. Their interactions with us were entransient, misleading and contentious. Arlt epa staff had insufficient information to understand the potential scope of the lead problem until more than a year after that water supply was switched. While epa did not cause the lead problem, in hindsight, we should not have been so trusting of the state for so long when they provided us with overly simplistic assurances of Technical Compliance rather than substantive responses to our increasingly growing concerns. Although epa regional staff repeatedly asked the Michigan Department of environmental quailty to address the lack of Corrosion Control, we missed the opportunity late summer to quickly get epas concerns on the radar screen. That i regret. Since october, epa has been providing Technical Advice to the city. Additionally as part of the federal response, lead by the department of health and Human Services, an epa Response Team of scientists, Water Quality experts, Community Involvement coordinators and support staff have been on the ground every day since late july. The epa team has visited hundreds of homes and collected thousands of samples to assess the citys water system. Were encouraged by these test results, but our enhanced efforts with flint will not cease until the system is fully back on track. Now weve also been engaging Flint Residents visiting places of worship, schools, libraries, Community Centers and Senior Living facilities to hear their concerns and share information. Ive also taken several concrete steps at the agency to address some of the systemic issues raised during the crisis. I directed a review of mdeq and its ability to implement the Safe Drinking Water act for the very reasons that the governor has also so clearly articulated. I called on epas Inspector General to investigate epas response to the flint crisis. No, we didnt cause it, but could we have acted sooner to correct the situation. I issued an e35wide elevation memo encouraging staff to raise issues of concern to managers and for managers to be welcoming of staff concerns and questions. Too much backandforth went between epa and the state when it should have gone up so that we could have raised the red flag earlier. I also recently sent letters to every governor and every state environmental and Health Commissioner in the country asking them to join epa and taking action to strengthen our Safe Drinking Water programs, to ensure that theyre looking and working with their own communities. Additionally, were actively working on revisions to the lead and copper rule. The lead and copper rule was revised under the Prior Administration to streamline the monitoring and reporting requirements. We know that it needs to be strengthened. While the contours of this situation are unique, the underlying circumstances that allowed it to happen are really not. As a country, we have a systemic problem of underinvesting in Environmental Justice communities and make no mistake about it, this is an Environmental Justice community. Not only are these underserved populations more vulnerable to impacts of pollution but they often lack the tools and the resources and the voice to do something about it. Thats what stacks the deck against a city like flint. Thats what creates an environment where a crisis like this can happen. Many areas across our country Water Infrastructure is aging and antiquated, and several communities are severely underfunded, particularly low income communities, which may have the most difficulty securing funds through rate increases or municipal bonds. This threatens citizens access to Safe Drinking Water and we need to start having a serious conversation with congress and others about how we advance the technologies and investments necessary to keep delivering clean water to american families. Im personally committed to doing Everything Possible to make sure a crisis like this never happens. Going to having been to flint, having met with the families, having met with faith leaders, having look at where were distributing water, having worked hard to make sure communities have the information that they need to stay safe. You cannot do anything but be personally committed but we know that no one portion of government can do it alone, none of us can do it alone. We need the cooperation of all of our colleagues at every level of government and every branch of government and beyond. Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Well now recognize the gentleman from michigan, mr. Wahlberg for five minutes. I remind members we have votes that will happen earlier today. I really do need everybody to stick to the five minutes so that we can get the maximum number of people to participate here. Both of these people have pressing schedules as well. So if we can adhere to the five minutes ill start to gavel you down right then but well start by recognizing mr. Wahlberg for five minutes. Mr. Chairman thank you and ill take that certainly to heart. I do want to thank you for the intentional method by which youve carried on these investigations and these hearings. Mr. Chairman, you didnt have to do it but youve done it well. Im a proud michigander and produced of my state and things that are taking place. This is a problem but im proud of michigan and for you to take serious attention to this, i thank you. Governor snyder, we appreciate you voluntarily coming today. We appreciate you voluntarily releasing all your emails so they can be part of the record. We appreciate the fact that youre willing to answer tough questions that this committee will offer today and outline the steps youre taking to solve the crisis and help flint recover, because we want flint to recover. Its a great city. It has great workers. Ive driven great cars made in flint, and now had the opportunity to look in the eyes of flint citizens who have experienced this tragedy, a human made tragedy. Governor, let me ask you, when did you first learn of the instances of a question here that was brought up just the other day as well and concerned instances of legionnaires disease in flint. Yes, in terms of legionnaires i didnt learn of that until 2016, and as soon as i became aware of it we held a press conference the next day. That was clearly a case where Michigan Department of health and Human Services should have done more to escalate the issue, to get it visible to the public and to me. I have documents here today that show your staff was receiving information about legionnaires in march of 2015, in an email on march 13th of 2015 a senior deq staff member brad wuerffel emailed Harvey Hollands stating a significant uptick in cases of legionnaires disease in flint. Theres also an email to your spokesperson, sarah wuerffel showing she was aware of the issue and in another email, brad wuerffel indicated he wanted to raise issue with your chief of staff dennis munchmore. Information was at the highest levels of your executive office ten months before you knew. Did you speak with them about it . No. I dont recall any mention of that to me, and i dont recall seeing those emails or being part of any of those discussions. If thats the case, what can you tell us about whether there is a connection between an outbreak of legionnaires and the flint river . Well obviously given the change in water source its a concern and were going through the investigation at this point and all parties are cooperating. The government, State Government, outside experts are working this issue. We brought in expertise from Wayne State University youre familiar with, congressman wahlberg, Outstanding Institution inition to look at the research causation connection. Im happy to share information that gives you perspective on the number of cases and what we have information on so far. I actually have a chart, i dont know if its available to people but id be happy to share that in terms of seeing some of the numbers themselves. I would ask the chairman if we could have that submitted for the record. Without objection so ordered. Well get a copy and distribute it to minutes as soon as we can photocopy it. Staff can get that piece of paper, that would be great. What i would also say i also asked for an investigation by the Inspector General and Auditor General of the state of michigan which is an independent organization to go look at the department of health and Human Services with respect to this whole discussion of what was disclosed, the processing of this, because this should have been handled better. Yes. Administrator mccarthy, does the Safe Drinking Water act provide you with the authority to act in a situation like flint . It does, when we have the appropriate information, sir, yes. Upon receipt, it says, upon receipt of information, the epa administrator may take any action she deems necessary to protect human health. September 26th, 2015, you wrote an email toen aepa official that appeared in the a. P. Last night, in fact, report. You said the situation in flint could, i quote, get very big quickly. You didnt act until january 21st, 2016. Why . Well, sir, the action that we were recommending or would have taken was action that was already happening. It was only until january did i realize that the state wasnt continuing and the city wasnt moving forward quickly enough to address the issue. But that was very late in the game, sir. The gentlemans time has expired. Members ever advised the piece of paper the governor was referred to is evidently in all of the packets, i believe its the last page. I recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania mr. Cartwright for five minutes. Id like to ask you simple questions and i remind you that you are under oath today. First i think you said this in your 278 but you do admit here today before this committee that you and your administration failed the people of flint. Ive made that clear in terms of my state of the state address. In your own Task Force Found that your department of Environmental Quality was primarily responsible for the crisis in flint. Do you also admit that here today . Yes, and i took actions immediately based on the recommendations. Your Task Force Found that your officials at mdeq did not implement Corrosion Control, which led directly to the contamination of the flint water system. Do you admit that here today . Uhm, the lack of Corrosion Control led to this issue. And you admit that it was your officials at mdeq that did not implement Corrosion Control, which led to that, right . They did not instruct the city of flint to do Corrosion Controls. Is that a yes . Is. Again, they wouldnt be doing the Corrosion Controls. Thats a city responsibility but they failed in what i deem would have been common sense to say they should have. Governor snyder, do you admit that you personally received a letter on january 18, 2015, from flints mayor, begging you to take action and warning there is nothing more important in flint right now than fixing the water problem on january 18, 2015, do you admit receiving that letter . I received a letter from the mayor dated that and took action on items within that letter. Im asking you about january 18, 2015. This is exhibit d. Yes, you shared the letter with me, so i could confirm that . Would you hand him the letter, please, marked as exhibit d. Well ask that this be made part of the record, mr. Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. January 18, 2015, from dwayne walling, the mayor, last paragraph on the second page, its directed to you specifically, and he says there is nothing more important in flint right now than fixing the water problems. Do you so he thee that . I do. Did you admit getting that letter . Yes. The mayor asked you repeatedly to come to flint during that crisis. Do you admit today you didnt show up for more than seven months after he asked you . Actually im not familiar. Id have to check my schedule. You didnt go to flint until october 2015. Is that right . I dont know if thats correct or not. You dont know. You admit here today to seeing headline after headline about health problems, hair loss, rashes, e. Coli, bacteria, sewage, legionnaires disease, did you read any of those stories, Governor Snyder . Congressman, i read a number of those stories. What i would tell you is those stories we would follow up on them and continue to get reaffirmation from career bureaucrats that the water was safe. That was wrong. That was not correct information. Do you admit there were more cases of legionnaires disease reported since the switch to flint river than all the cases in the last five years or more combined . Do you admit that . Yes, and thats why i provided a table that shows you do . A number of cases were at health care facilities, in terms of the numbers there were 87 cases you admit here today even after the whole world knew that Flint Residents were exposed to unimaginable amounts of lead you did not declare a state of emergency until january 2016 . I took immediate action and we started issuing filters to people, doing Water Testing and blood testing. I wish more could have been done. Plausible deniblt only works when its plausible and im not buying that you didnt know about any of this until october 2015. You were not in a medically induced coma for a year, and ive had about enough of your false contrition and your phony apologies. Susan hedmond from the epa bears not onetenth of the responsibility of the state of michigan, and your administration, and she resigned and there you are, dripping with guilt, but drawing your paycheck, hiring lawyers at the expense of the people, and doing your dead level best to spread accountability to others, and not being accountable. Its not appropriate. Pretty soon we will have men who strike their wives saying, im sorry, dear, but there were failures at all levels. People who put dollars over the fundamental safety of the people do not belong in government and you need to resign, too, Governor Snyder. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. I recognize the gentleman from michigan, mr. Mosh for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman, thank you administrator mccarthy and i welcome you Governor Snyder and thank you for your willingness to appear before this committee. Governor, you spoke about the broken culture at many of the agencies in State Government. How are you working to change the culture within the agencies specifically the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, that were negligent or reckless and failed the citizens of flint . It began by changing leadership. I accepted the resignation of the Department Director, and put it in perspective, this was a Department Director that had served under two prior governors with distinction. But we had this issue. It was time to accept his resignation. Ive essentially under Civil Service rules terminated the head of the Water Division that was one that made the terrible decisions with her team to say it should be two sixmonth studies instead of doing Corrosion Control. She was a 28year veteran of the department. Were going to spend time, we are going to change this culture. Bureaucratic culture that focuses on Technical Compliance and doesnt have a sense of urgency, should not be serving our citizens. There are many good hardworking people that do work for the state of michigan. There are 47,000, but i am committed to finding the instances where these people havent gotten the idea that we work for the citizens and i am going to be relentless in following up to make sure we make the changes necessary that this never happens again, whether its in water area or any area of our state. Governor, did state employees intentionally withhold information from you . I dont believe that was the case. What i would also say is we had a report from the office of Auditor General that responded to senator ananek and i know youre familiar with the senator, that one of the conclusions was, i dont believe they found any willful misrepresentation. And what are you doing to make sure that state employees communicate with you especially regarding issues of great importance like the people of flint . I stood up in front of the entire state of michigan in my state of the state address and said these people that made these terrible decisions that showed a clear lack of common sense failed us, but since they work for me, i am responsible for their actions. And i take that responsibility and i kick myself every single day about what i could have done to do more, but i told the people of michigan that theres a commitment, a passionate commitment to say we are going to change the culture in these places. I apologized to the people of flint. They deserve that. I understand why theyre angry. Its terrible what theyre having to go through, but i made a commitment to fix the problem. I cant take some damage thats been done as Ranking Member cummings said, but theres a lot we can do to help the people of flint address so many issues and i am absolutely committed to do that, and we are following through and getting that done. And im going back to flint tomorrow to roll up my sleeves and keep working that issue. Governor, what is the states expected Budget Surplus and how much of that money will be spent on helping the people of flint . In terms of i presented the budget in february for the state, in terms of surplus, were actually going through two or three steps. Ive asked for a total, including two supplementals or three supplementals that have already been passed by a total of 232 million to help address issues in flint, covering all areas, from the water system and infrastructure to nutrition, to health, to wellbeing, to economic development, all these fields to do whatever we can possible in terms of improving things in flint. Several of these already passed our legislature. In addition, i ask for 165 million that would have been a Rainy Day Fund deposit to go into a state Infrastructure Fund to say this is not an issue just for flint, but lets start putting aside the longterm resources to say we have an infrastructure problem in the state of michigan thats a national problem. Lets get these lead pipes out of the ground, lets look at setting the right standards, thats why i called the federal lead and copper rule dumb and dangerous. It is. In michigan im making a commitment, i will be proposing legislation, i will be pushing to do everything to put a much more stringent standard in because the people of our state and our country deserve better than theyre getting today. I have a question for administrator mccarthy. If susan hedmond had not resigned would you have fired her . That was an issue i didnt need to face, sir, as you know. Susan took the choice to submit her resignation knowing people would question whether or not she accepted some guilt or responsibility for this. She fully accepted responsibility and resigned. I thought it was the right step for her to take. So the question remains though would you have fired her . I i i didnt have to face that decision, sir. I yield back. The gentlemans time expired. We recognize the gentlewoman from the District Of Columbia, ms. Norton for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman, i very much appreciate this hearing and i appreciate both of you coming. I went to flint, michigan, since the District Of Columbia had its own corrosion, lead corrosion crisis about 15 years ago. I was impressed with the many federal agencies that were there, but i see responsibility on the part of the federal and the state levels and i think this house has found this, and i commend the house for passing a bill from the energy and Commerce Committee that says th pending in the senate the epa must notify residents when water samples show lead levels for the highest 10 of homes at above 15 parts per billion, if state and local agencies dont do it. So this protocol, this banter between the state and the federal agencies is very distressing when youre talking about irreversible lead in the water. But Governor Snyder, you appointed your own task force. It appears not to have minced any words, a task force that, to your credit, you appointed in december 2015, and it says that the state of michigan bears and here im quoting their words primary responsibility for the water crisis in flint. Do you accept these, this conclusion from your own task force, the people you i take it appointed . Congresswoman i appreciate you referencing that group. Actually a pointed this emin october, within two weeks of learning of this crisis because i believe we needed i have to give you credit because this task force, this task force seems to have operated very independently and here im quoting them again, we believe the primary responsibility for what happened in flint rests with the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, although many individuals and entities at state and local levels contributed to creating and prolonging the problem, the mdeq is the Government Agency that has responsibility to ensure Safe Drinking Water in michigan. It failed that responsibility. And i accepted the report and i took immediate action. Thank you very much, im just trying to make clear, and to your credit you ought to want to spread this on the record because this task force, and here is what is really interesting to hear them say, and here im quoting them, found that there was aggressive dismissal, belittlement and attempts to discredit those efforts and the individuals involved. Do you agree with this finding of your own task force . I do. And those things never should have happened and those folks are no longer with us. Thank you. This quote seems to indicate that there was an attempt to discredit the work of others who apparently ultimately proved to be right and again im giving you credit for this task force, but i think this task force shows that the state has accepted the responsibility. The most serious finding was that the Task Force Found that michigan actually caused this poisoning. It said officials, and i quote, did not require the Task Force Found that the lead and copper rule required Corrosion Control treatment. Thats to keep lead from leaching into the water which your officials and i quote them it was not required when the switch to the flint river. They are saying they found it was not necessary according to the Task Force Report and that this failure led directly to the contamination of the flint river water system. It seems to me, governor, that your administration has already taken responsibility for what happened and that your own Task Force Takes that and that your force takes that responsibility. It seems to me here today, each and every response should be to echo your own task force, that the responsibility lay with the state of michigan. It knew what the state knew what to do in time, and it did not do what it knew had to be done. And i thank you, mr. Chairman. The gentlewoman yields back. I now recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, i think a lot more failed in flint than the water. Its a failed city. We have many of them, not only in michigan, but across the country. Since we started these hearings, its amazing, ive talked to staff, and weve gotten information that probably dozens of communities are facing the same thing, and theyre coming forward and saying that they have unSafe Drinking Water and high levels of lead and their kids are being poisoned. Governor, you did take some action, and some people have been fired, is that correct . Correct. I guess the flint water head, several others, and you suspended other people, is that correct . Correct. And you said everyone shares some blame, including yourself, right . Correct. What disturbs me is well, first of all, administrator mccarthy, you had the ability to act when you find out that things arent going right in these systems. You have the Compliance Authority under law, dont you . Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And who was fired or held accountable in epa . Well, sir, you have to look at was anyone fired . No, sir. In fact, what disturbs me i checked to see, like headmdma who was in charge she was underneath you as a regional administrator regional administrator hedman, yes. She was getting Vacation Time bonuses, got the last one may 28th, while the regional administrators getting Vacation Time bonuses while the kids are getting poisoned. She finally resigned herself. You never fired anyone. You have great people working at epa. Thank you. This, mr. Del toro should get a congressional gold medal. Mrs. Walters blew the whistle. She came to the local authorities. We had the mayor in here. She told me in march of 2015 she met the mayor at the library, and he promised to do everything. She went to city hall april 3rd, or the beginning of april, and no one would see her. She was put off. And to the day of the hearing the other day, the mayor had never talked to her after that. This and i said, this now, youre pretty experienced, you head the epa. You can read del toros report. Its incredibly accurate. This is dated in june, and not a damn thing was done until, really, until january of this year. I think and i went back and asked mrs. Walters, i said, well, when did they finally come in . Because the mayor and others in your epa administrator from the district said that, oh, we acted immediately. They didnt act. They gagged mr. Del toro. Did you ever see this report, administrator . I did see that report, yes. When did you see the report . I dont recall the exact day. Well, into june, last summer . Sir, i would suggest that did you see this report . Again, a High School Student could take this report and determine that kids were getting poisoned. He confirmed it. He went in and tested everything the pipes in the building. He looked at the lead lines. He did a thorough examination. Then he detailed all the things weve heard about this, this calendar of failure of flint, the legionella, et cetera, violations going back. And you told me you had the authority, you have the Compliance Authority. Did you ever shut these programs down or go after them . Sir, we went after you did not. Okay. You did not. No one acted. Now, i heard calls for resignation. I think you should be at the top of the list. Mmhmm. Again well, sir, if you let me answer, i might be they failed at the local level, they failed at the state level, and we failed at the federal level, and whos in charge . The district head gets a vacation bonus, the kids get lead poison, and youre still in office. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Gentleman yields back. Thanks for the opportunity to answer. Youre welcome. Did you have something you wanted to say . It would be good if i could, sir, if you wouldnt mind. Sure. Well, i think its important to know that when we found out, finally because the mdeq told us on april 24th, prior to that, that there was no Corrosion Control treatment, reversing what they had earlier told us, that they did Corrosion Control in the system, that we had already told mdeq that they actually had to require the city of flint to move ahead with Corrosion Control treatment, well in advance of that memo. Ms. Let her finish. Thank you. And we consistently said the same thing. That is a report on three homes in the same area. Because of the complexity of lead, we did not and could not have made a concerted judgment about whether it was a systemic problem. When we had the information, when we received it from mdeq, which wasnt until july 21st, we told them, were done talking, we now know its a systemic problem. You do it or well do it. They said well do it. And since that point in time, mdeq slow walked everything they needed to do. That precluded us from being able to jump in to the rescue. That is what happened. And if people are worried about whether we silenced miguel del toro miguel is a hero on this. He remains a central part of our decisionmaking. Hes one of our experts we rely on. The simple fact is that mdeq was the one who told everybody outside that he was a rogue employee, to discredit him, just as the mdeq was doing as the Governors Task force said, in trying to discredit anybody who said there was a problem with that Drinking Water system. We were strongarmed, we were misled, we were kept at arms length, we couldnt do our jobs effectively. Mr. Chairman, id just ask that mr. Del toros report of june be included in the record at this point. Thank you, and i yield back. Without objection, so ordered. Wow, you just dont get it. You just dont get it. You still dont get it. I will now recognize the gentleman from virginia, mr. Conley. Well, mr. Chairman, thank you. I get it. Were trying to make sure that blame is shifted here. Its interesting. For a committee that has practiced alice in wonderland techniques in management off with your head so, when theres a problem at opm, off with the head of the head of opm, off with the head of the head of irs, off with the head of lois lerner. But Governor Snyder, apparently, my friends on the other side of the aisle, want to make sure your head is securely on your shoulders. Governor snyder, do you believe in the philosophy of government that says we ought to push responsibility and power to the lowest level we can, as close to the people as we can . As a general rule, yes. So, in november 2012, the citizens of your state rejected the emergency manager law you had advocated in a referendum, is that correct . Correct. And yet, six weeks later, you reintroduced legislation that was approved by the Republicancontrolled Legislature for a new emergency manager law, pa436, is that correct . There was a law that took into account the concerns of the citizens, and it was passed by a duly elected legislature that represents the people of the statement of michigan. So, that law then allowed you to bypass the local governance of the city of flint and to appoint an emergency manager to act for and in the place instead of the governing body and the opposite chief Administrative Officer of the local government quote unquote, from the law, is that correct . Going back to your original question, you said generally. This is a case where there was failure in terms of City Management i appreciate it, but im just asking a yes or no here. Did you appoint an emergency manager pursuant to that law . Yes. Yes. And that meant the mayor and city council could not exercise any powers unless your handpicked emergency manager let them, is that correct . Initially, yes. Last week, our Committee Staff traveled to flint, and they conducted a transcribed interview of the last emergency manager you appointed, gerald ambrose. By the way, you appointed, not ms. Mccarthy. We asked him if he considered the city council impotent during his tenure. His answer, on the record, was absolutely. Do you know how many pages of edicts were issued by your appointed Emergency Managers in this tragic time period, governor . No, but also, let me respond to your comment about ambrose hold on. Let me just show you. Because ive only got five minutes. Ladies and gentlemen, hold them up, please. These are the stacks of edicts issued by your Emergency Managers, not by the city council of flint. Now, do you know how many of those 8,000 pages dealt with meaningful steps to protect the citizens of flint from lead flowing through their pipes, governor . Your appointees. No. Not one. Not one. Congressman, i encourage you to go look at public act wait a minute, governor, its my five minutes. I wish i had ten, then id give you all the time in the world. This is a failure of a philosophy of governance you advocated. Theres no evidence, even after you were warned by the mayor of flint they had problems, and they begged you to come to flinlt. You ignored them. We have no evidence of you traveling to flint for seven months, governor. Seven months im glad youre sorry now. Im glad youre taking action now, but its a little bit late for the kids in flint whose health has been compromised, for people whose health and immunity systems were already compromised, for a city in america that is on its knees because of your Emergency Managers decision to save 4 million. And now its going to cost a lot more to clean up. And the taint and the stain that State Government has put on this country in the form of flint will be a long time being erased. You know, at some point, the buck stops at your office, governor, with your department of Environmental Quality that collapsed, with your Emergency Managers who were guilty of hubris. They knew better than the local elected officials of flint, and they ignored all the warning signs. Thats the record, governor. Thats your record. And at some point, the buck has to stop at your desk. I yield back. Gentlemans time has expired. We will now recognize the gentleman from tennessee, m. Before i yield my time to my friend from michigan, mr. Wahlberg, i would respectfully ask administrator mccarthy to consider scrapping the waters of the u. S. Rule, as its clear epa cannot currently handle the issues on its plate. And i now yield my time to the gentleman from michigan. I thank the gentleman from tennessee. On september 26, 2015, ms. Mccarthy, you received an email from peter gervat, director of the epas office of groundwater and Drinking Water. The whole point of the email is actually to share mark edwards documentation of the flint Drinking Water problems. Mr. Edwards ends the email asking the epa to and i quote immediately take Decisive Action on this issue to protect the public. Did you read the september 25th email that included mark edwards request for action . I did. Dr. Edwards is very familiar to this committee and the people of flint. Do you know who mark edwards is . Yes. Yes, weve met. Youve met. We had a meeting, yes. How long have you known of dr. Edwards and his work on the Water Quality . Its just related to flint, sir. We actually have a contract with him to do work with us right now. Do you believe mark edwards is an expert on Water Treatment and corrosion . I think he is one expert, yes. I would also acknowledge that epa has a number of the edwards email gives including mr. Del toro the edwards email gives key points, summary at the end, documenting that there is no Corrosion Control treatment, that people cant afford bottled water, mdeq is continuing to insist the water is safe, and that they know of a child with elevated blood levels already. If you received an email documenting all of these problems on september 25th, including the fact that children have elevated blood lead levels, why didnt you act until january 21st, 2016 . Sir, youre incorrect in saying i am not incorrect. We have emails to do this, we have records as well. Can i point out you continue to not take responsibility, including writing articles about it. Dr. Edwards is an expert on this issue. Yes. The people of flint understand that. Hes been there. You didnt even show up until february of this year. And i remind the members on the other side of the aisle, the governors been there many days. This administrator of epa didnt show up until february. Dr. Edwards said in testimony before this committee that susan hedman, who you wont fire you wouldnt fire you wouldnt even give an answer if you would that hedmans response was completely unacceptable and criminal. Thats what mr. Edwards said. Yes. Please, tell the people of flint sitting behind you, and this committee why mark edwards is wrong. Well, mark edwards is a good scientist, and i respect him. If you look at the timeline of when we received that email, you will find that the city and county Health Advisory about the flint water went out on the same day. You will find that october 1, they were noticed to have no drinking of that water without protection. You will find that on october 2nd, the governor put out a tenpoint plan. On october 3rd, the filters were being distributed. I cannot there is no switch that i can turn on that would have and im hearing nothing of your action on that, and you have the law on your side that says in any, any event of imminent danger or health risk, you had the responsibility to act. At that point in time, the damage had been done and all excuse me, im okay. Ill give you a chance. Okay, thank you. You wrote an op ed in the Washington Post yes. Which stated the epas Regional Office was also provided with confusing, incomplete and incorrect information. Yes. As a result, epa Staff Members were unable to understand the scope of the lead problem until more than a year after the switch to untreated water. Did the epa confirm in early 2015 that flints water pipes lacked Corrosion Control . In early no, sir, i did not know that, if the staff were unaware of that. They were unaware of that. Yes. In fact, they were told directly by mdeq what about mr. Del toro . Who was disciplined he was not disciplined oh, yes, he was. Okay. Well, he was thats a matter of record as well. No, im sorry, sir, it wasnt at tuesdays hearing, dr. Edwards said some of the documents he received from epa, requests are nearly 90 redacted. Dr. Edwards waited ten years in some cases to receive a response to epa foia request. How is this acceptable from an expert . Gentlemans time has expired, but the administrator may answer. Well, i wanted you to be all clear that the emergency order that i issued in january was because of continued failure to address the issue. If there was anything that i could have done, any switch that i could turn on that would have precluded us or allowed us to go further than what was already happening at that time, i would have pulled that switch. What we needed was exactly starting. Were we we late in getting it done . Yes. Are there consequences to that . Absolutely. Our regional administrator worked very hard to get mdeq to do their job to get these actions in place. So, when youre asking did i receive an email on a given date, i did. The actions were moving. There was nothing else i could have ordered that would have made that move faster. But i did issue an order in january, because even after all of this, the order that i issued was questioned by this state, by mdeq, by this state, as was that really legally solid. Up until today they continue to drag their feet. Go ahead, governor. Go ahead, if you want to yeah, im sorry, mr. Chairman, but you can only take so much at some point. And all i would do is go to the record. And what i would suggest is people look at three emails. Theres an email going back to june 8th, 15, from jennifer crooks from the e pa, an agenda for michigan semiannual call. Theres an email on july 21st, 15 from tinker hyde, a briefing paper with the mdeq talking about the federal lead and copper rule, including flint water. On 9 10 15, theres an epa email talking about coming up with a joint strategic action plan about the epa and the mdeq working together. They were in regular dialogue. Theyre talking about how to do things together. And when i read these things, im ready to get sick. We need urgency. We needed action, and theyre keep on talking. And its not about fighting. Theyre just not getting the job done. We messed up in michigan to begin with by doing two studies instead of Corrosion Controls. That fundamentally caused this problem. I have accepted responsibility because those people work for me. But its Something Different to have this continuing dialogue to say it was solely us. This could have been stopped sooner if other people could have also spoken up. Im always going to kick myself that our people should have spoken up, i should have asked tougher questions, i should have done more, but to also say the epa just didnt get information . I just ask you to take the time to go look at those three emails, and that will clear the record up. Thank you. Appreciate it. I will now recognize the Ranking Member mr. Cummings for five minutes. Lets talk about emails, Governor Snyder. You have represented to the public that you were unaware of the disaster building in flint until september 2015. I find it hard to believe that a crisis of this magnitude completely escaped your attention for so long. It is clear that your senior staff, people who report directly to you daily, were very aware of what was taking place in flint. October 12, 2014, one of your top advisers wrote an email to your chief of staff, dennis muchmore, saying this, and i quote as you know, there have been problems with the flint Water Quality since they left the wsd system, which was a decision by the emergency manager there. I think that we should ask the emergency manager to consider coming back to the detroit system in full or in part as an interim solution to both the quality and now the financial problems that the solution is causing. I see this as an urgent matter to fix. Governor, did your chief of staff, who i assume reports directly to you, your righthand man, did he tell you these concerns urgently needed to be fixed in october 2014 . Did he tell you that . I dont recall. I recall during that time period we had issues, and i got briefings and we discussed issues about color and odor of the water. There was also a concern about e. Coli. Okay, you said so, there are several issues, but none of them related to lead, because these but you knew there was a problem with the water. Again, i was you did get the email, did you . I did not get that email. Okay. I remind you, youre under oath. To my knowledge, i did not receive that okay, i hear you. In february 2015, your chief of staff made the following statement, and i quote after all, if the gm refuses to use gm, as in General Motors we fused to use the water in their plant, and our own agencies are warning people not to drink it, the differential between what we now collect and what we would pay wsv is not significant. We look pretty stupid hiding behind some financial statement. Did you talk to him about the concerns in february . 2015. I cant recall specific discussions, but we had continuing dialogue about color, odor issues in the water. We were tracking issues that were resolved on e. Coli, on tthm. The gm issue was a matter of chloride in the water. It was acceptable, according to our experts, for human consumption. It did create issues although it was rusting away brandnew the water was rusting away brandnew parts at gm. It was okay for human consumption, thats your and i dont think that was mr. Earlys testimony, by the way. To put it in perspective, Ranking Member cummings, these will the kind of red flags, though, i kick myself. I wish i would have asked hard questions [ everyone talking at once ] hold on, i want you to finish your kicks. On march 2nd, 2015, your chief of staff offered the following assessment about flint its tough for everyday people to listen to Financial Issues and water mumbo jumbo, when all they see is problems. If we procrastinate much longer in doing something direct, well have real trouble. Governor, did your chief of staff, your righthand man, talk to you back in march . My chief of staff we had ongoing discussions. I cant recall a specific discussion in march. We had ongoing discussions, and he was right to raise concerns. All right. He took actions, including the maximum grant we are allowed to do was a 2 million grant we did earlier in the year to help flint with Water Infrastructure. We also were working on getting filters. Im running out of time and i want to be obedient to the time restraints. The next day, mr. Muchmore complained of the lack of lack of empathy for the residents. Again, this is your righthand man, and he subsequently said this on your vq director, dan wyatt, and i quote i really dont think people are getting the benefit of the doubt. Now they are concerned, rightfully so, about the lead level studies they are receiving from the deq samples. These folks are scared and worried about the health impacts, and they are basically getting blown off by us. Governor, did you talk to your chief of staff about those concerns . I had continuing dialogues with my chief of staff, and he went out and sought advice or expertise from the career bureaucrats, not just in one department, but in the department of Environmental Quality. Water experts continued to reaffirm the water was safe. The people in the department of health and Human Services kept on saying they didnt see an elevation in blood lead levels, and they were wrong. Thats the problem. Governor, it seems like there are two basic possibilities. Either your chief of staff told you about these concerns and you did nothing, or he didnt tell you and you are an absentee governor. I yield back. Thank the Ranking Member. Ill now recognize myself for five minutes. Governor, youve apologized, correct . Correct. Have there been people that have been fired . Correct. Anybody also dismissed or otherwise retire . Yes. Did the state of michigan do something wrong . Yes. Administrator mccarthy, did the epa in your mind, did the epa do anything wrong . I dont know whether we did everything right. Thats the challenge that im facing. The challenge youre facing right now is my question, and my question is, did the epa do anything wrong . I think we could have been i would hope that we would have been more regressive. I would hope that we would have escalated this issue. If we could have done absolutely anything to stand on a rooftop and scream about the challenges were having so, youre just not heres the fundamental difference. First of all, we have jurisdiction here in congress on the epa. I dont have jurisdiction on the governor. I dont have jurisdiction on i have jurisdiction to call him up here, and republicans did call him up here. He volunteered to be here. And we are investigating this. This is our third hearing on this topic. But heres the fundamental difference, and i hope you and i hope everybody understands this i see responsibility, i see people that are getting fired, i see changes, i see admission that there was fundamental wrong that happened in the organization. But then when i turn to the epa, has anybody been fired . Thats a question. No, sir. Has anybody been dismissed . No, sir. When the epa region 5 administrator there, susan hedman mmhmm. The day you finally did take Decisive Action, when you were questioned about that, you said that her act of stepping down was courageous. I did. Im going to ask you again, did the epa do anything wrong . The epa worked very hard. Let me make one okay. No, no, no, because i have another question for you. The no, hold on. Did the mark edwards has testified here twice. He doesnt have a dog in this fight other than he wants good, Quality Health for people, and he wants good, clean water, and he happens to know the Science Behind the water. On those two hearings, did mr. Edwards say anything that you think was wrong, or maybe or inaccurate . Do you think mr. Edwards said anything inaccurate or wrong in those two testimonies . I think he was not at all informed about what epa did. I think he knows nothing about the law which he readily admits he knows nothing he doesnt know how were supposed to work in the system. He doesnt understand that the problem itself was the responsibility of the states. Oversight was our responsibility. We took that seriously and we conducted it. Does that mean i dont have regrets . Because id really like to thats a whole different standard. Thats cheap. Oh, yeah, weve just got regrets. No, thats cheap. Thats cheap. Well, sir, you have to look at how the law works, and we did yeah, you know what, and it failed you failed. You have you said, if there is anything i could do, if there was any switch i could pull. You had that under the law and you didnt do it. No, sir, i did not have that answer the law. Yes, you did. If there is an imminent threat, you can pull that switch, and you finally did in january. Administrator, you are wrong. There is two parts to that, sir. You skipped the second. Whats the second part . You need to have the information to determine an imminent threat so, why do we even need an ep snank if you cant do that im sorry. Let me take no, i am asking the questions. Okay. Yes, okay. In february is when you first arrived on the scene, and it wasnt until january of the next year that you actually did something. Thats the fundamental problem. Donts look around like youre mystified. Thats what happened. Miguel del toro showed up in february. You didnt take action. You didnt. And you could have pulled that switch we consistently took action from that point forward, consistently there are a lot of people in this audience from flint. Nobody believes that you took action. You had those levers there. Mark edwards from virginia tech, bless his heart we no, just listen for a second. Okay. Had the opportunity. They have said things like we failed to get epa to take lead in water risks seriously. And another quote of his this is possible because the epa has effectively condoned cheating on the monitoring in 2006. He read your op ed that you put out, one of the most offensive things i could imagine, and he says you absolved any wrongdoing of the epa in the flint disaster. If you want to do the courageous thing like you said susan hedman did, then you, too, should resign. Nobodys going to believe that you have the opportunity, you had the presence, you had the authority, you had the backing of the federal government, and you did not act when you had the chance. And if youre going to do the courageous thing, you, too, should step down. My time has expired. I will recognize the jengentlew from illinois, ms. Duckworth. Thank you, chairman. I think if the epa chairman should resign, then so should the governor. I have been deeply troubled by the testimony and revelations raised in this series of hearings on the water crisis. Its a kind of human suffering that should not happen anywhere, let alone the greatest nation on the face of the earth. The failures at every level of government in this disaster are alarming. I dont think theres any debate at this point or any question that it is the snyder Administrations Department of Environmental Quality that created this crisis in the first place. However, as a member from illinois and one of the states that falls under the epas region 5 alongside michigan, im also extremely troubled by how the epa also failed in its duty to serve as the last line of defense for the children of flint. And while the flint crisis has rightfully garnered the most attention lately, im deeply concerned that communities all around this country are at similar risk. In chicago, we had one of the greatest we have one of the better quality Water Systems in the nation, but we are also learning that under the deficiencies in the lead and copper rules testing protocols, our department of Water Management is conducting testing that in highrisk instances and i quote systematically misses the high lead levels and potential human exposure. Furthermore, a report from the Chicago Tribune found that since 2003, more than half of the testing sites tested by Chicago Department of management were in homes owned by Department Employees and might not be located in highrisk areas. So, administrator mccarthy, when Water Systems such as in flint or chicago elect to use their own employees homes as sampling test sites with employees themselves administering the test, what safeguards are in population to ensure the results are not corrupted or skewed . Well, there are protocols for this, and one of the things that i have done is to send a letter to every governor and every agency that has primacy on this across the u. S. , to have their post their protocols, to explain what they should do again, and to make sure that theyre following that. Were also looking at how we can strengthen lead and copper rule. It clearly needs to be strengthened. And i have never suggested that the system didnt feel or that epa is looking at its own place in this. The office of the Inspector General is looking and investigating at my request to make sure that we did everything we could with the Information Available to us. But the one thing im just trying to make very clear is, we did not create this problem. The question is, did we run in and try to solve it and work it as quickly as we possibly could . And what else could we possibly have done . And ive been trying to look and answer that question. And anybody who can tell me what else we could have done under the law, i want to hear it, or even under common sense, because its an area which i let me answer that for you, because im not on your side in this. Im certainly not on the governors side. Im not on your side as well. The answer to you is would you not rather have jumped in too soon, despite the law, to protect the children of flint and be holden to congress to testify about why you stepped in too quickly to safeguard health as to why you didnt act soon enough . Congresswoman, we actually didnt understand or know the full extent of the problem until july, july of last year. But you still did nothing. No, that is not congresswoman no, no, im talking here. Lets go back to the law. You said earlier, you said that mdeq was telling you that they were taking action. Yes. So, you waited for them to take action and they slow rolled everything congresswoman, just let me explain. There are two tests that congress has given us, because congress was very clear in the law and also in the congressional record that they wanted us to keep in our lane and they didnt want us to step on states rights. Two things. I had to have the data, which i told you i didnt have until july 21st, and i had to show that the state wasnt taking appropriate action. On the 21st, they said they would. I had no justification legally. So, what we tried to do was to get information into the communities hands. We tried to tell the public, there is a problem here. Okay. I only have 30 seconds left, so im going to take my 30 seconds. Do we need to change the law . Do we need to change the statute so that you will step forward sooner when you have an epic failure on the part of the governor of a state, as is in the case of Governor Snyders absolute failure in protecting his citizens in michigan . Do we need to change the law . Its a very, very we asked this question of the epa as recently as yesterday, and you didnt answer it. And so, tell me, do we need to change the law so that you step in sooner . It is a very high hurdle, but i will say in 35 or 36 years almost of working in this business, this is the first time that i have seen a state fail to abide by recommendations were giving them. Youre not answering my question but most states work collaboratively with us. Gentlewomans time has expired. There is a vote on the floor, the first of probably two votes. Well recess and reconvene no sooner than 10 45. Committee stands in recess. Yeah, for those in the room, dont assume youre going to get a seat back if you leave it, so this is the House Oversight committee in their third hearing on the issue of the flint, michigan, water contamination crisis. And our phone question for you is the governments role in that crisis. The committee taking a break. There is a vote on the house floor. You heard chairman chaffetz saying the earliest theyll come back is 10 45, 15 minutes from now. Well open up the lines and hear from you on the phone, also on facebook and twitter, facebook. Com cspan. You can send us a tweet. 2027488920 for democrats, 2027488921 for republicans. For everyone else 2027488922. The committees been in session for about an hour and a half, hearing from the republican governor of michigan, rick snyder, and the administrator of the Environmental Protection agency, Gina Mccarthy. This is, again, the third in three hearings that the Oversight Committee has held, the second this week. And all of those previous hearings, by the way, are available on our website at cspan. Org. We will take you back live to the hearing room when they gavel back in. Theres a vote on the house floor on a bill, a resolution the house is proposing today that will give the ability for the house to file an amicus brief, a friend of the court brief in the Supreme Court in a case involving the president s executive actions on immigration. So, lets get the calls and hear what people are thinking of michigan. Caller, first up, deborah is in kalamazoo. Welcome. Caller yes, its about the flint, michigan, water contamination. Yeah. Caller i dont understand why the governor wants us to pay his legal bills. Hes the one that caused the mess to begin with. We voted on an act or they would not be able to replace do the city manager to take over a town. Then they attached it to a bill, a monetary bill that had to be passed by the state to fund the government, fund the state of michigan. So, even though we got it on a ballot, i voted against it, they reattached it to it anyway. Deborah, as you watch the hearing today i assume youre watching on cspan3 or listening on cspan radio caller ive got it on cspan3, yes. Do you find this setting, this open, public hearing, hearing from the governor, hearing from the epa administrator do you think this is a helpful setting to get to a resolution on the problem . Caller i think it is because of the its out in the air now. And that doctor they had there was a town hall meeting in fli fli flint, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and they were talking about it, about the water crisis in flint. They were doing a thing, a town hall on cnn. And they were talk and if this doctor hadnt stepped forward they tried to take her up through the medical board. They were going to try to revoke her license, for petes sakes. And she was the first one that was the one that noticed there was something wrong with her babies. Right. Caller that she was taking care of. And she reported it. And then they tried to take her license away. And i believe she may have testified at the first oversight hearing that the committee held. Again, this is the third of three. James is in california, republican line. Caller hello. Hi, james. Caller thank you for cspan, and i do find the coverage of the hearing very informative. My point would be that Climate Change is the lead in the water issue of the now, and the only president ial candidate who is discussing Climate Change and taking our environment very seriously, which is a paramount issue in this world and this country, is Bernie Sanders. And i think that Bernie Sanders and people like Bernie Sanders can change the system to where epa and state governors like rick snyder, who should resign, can get out of the way and make the world work for people. Its a hearing thats featured a lot of calls for resignation of the governor and also of epa administrator Gina Mccarthy. Congressman chaffetz, the chairman of the committee, calling for the epa administrator to resign. Comments on twitter. Heres one from erin, who says watching the cspan flint hearings gives you a pretty good idea why there is the rise of sanders and trump, government all covering. And this one says that these hearings are a scam. Do this stuff behind closed doors and then air the results in public. A different view there. Carolyn says flint officials are being drowned in a bathtub of leadfilled water by senate committee, a dollar short and day late. This is the House Oversight committee. Again, theyre on break for a vote on the house floor. Should gavel back in in 10 or 15 minutes or so. Well go to benton harbor, michigan. This is cindy, independent line. Caller yes, im a resident of benton harbor, and we all cindy, youre on the line. Just listen to your phone. Go ahead with your comment. Cindy, are you there . All right, well move on oh, i lost you there. Pontiac, michigan, linda on the republican line. Hi. Caller hi. Youre on the air. Go ahead. Listen to your phone and go ahead with your comment. Caller yes, im linda from pontiac. Ive been involved in the emergency manager stuff for at least six years, and i would like to say to you that there are issues that need to be dealt with. And unfortunately under the law. But there are its a rigorous law, and its meant to be. I would ask you to please look at the clean Drinking Water act and find out when they borrow money from that, what are they using it for . Can i ask you, whats your involvement in the emergency Manager Program . Whats your job . Caller well, i am a taxpayer who came from a different political environment, so this was very shocking to me, to lose some of my elected rights the first couple years. But now im into it six years, and i understand that its a necessity. And i do understand that the governor and i know hes not being as frank as he maybe should be is not getting access to all of the information from the local level. Were showing you thanks for your call. Were showing you an inside look at the hearing room as reporters and others gather. Theyre waiting for the hearing to resume. Matt fuller, who is a reporter for huffington post, tweeted this photo earlier of the line outside of the hearing room, this the line for the flint hearing with michigan governor rick snyder. Theyre not all going to get in. A look down the line in the hall outside the hearing room. Lets go to the state capital, lansing, and hear from gina. Good morning. Caller good morning. One thing that the United States doesnt understand is that Governor Snyder was elected as a businessman to take over a state because we got tired of our government officials for over 20 years wrecking the state of michigans economy, infrastructure. So, we thought we had a change, and we voted him in, me included, but i didnt vote him in the second time because i knew something was iffy about him. And it just wasnt working. And this whole flint thing and the schools and the Veterans Home and grand rapids a lot of people dont understand that this emergency manager law affects not just flint, it affects a whole bunch of infrastructures and structures that are destroying our state. And yes, the state, michigan people want him gone. There are going to be people that are going to go to around theyre trying to get him impeached with signatures, and so, i think flint and detroit has started that. Whens he up for reelection. Caller hes already been reele reelected. This is his second term in office. He was reelected in 2016 . Caller i believe so. All right, heres linda, next up caller just recently, so. Thanks for your call, gina. Lindas next in chicago, democrats line. Caller hello. Im calling to say that Governor Snyder of michigan should definitely if he wants to take accountability and he hasnt had the good sense to resign yet, that maybe there could be a binding referendum on the upcoming general election in november, where people in the United States are asked. He should go to jail, as far as asked if he should go to jail. Do people agree that he should go to jail for this. Peoples lives have been destroyed because of this. This is absolutely wrong. We need to stand up and take a stand. If he cant do it and if the federal government cant do it, we, the people who live here in the United States, need to stand up and say he needs to be in jail already. And thank you very much. Taking your calls on the governments role in the flint, michigan, water contamination crisis. Heres barton city, michigan. Brad, welcome. Caller hello. Hi, brad. Caller hi. I just wanted to, on the hearings, i am enjoying them on cspan3. I find them very informative. I find it a little bit disturbing that some of our representatives are looking more for sound bites, rather than answers and not allowing people to talk. I would expect something a little more adult out of that. I also found it interesting i believe the scientists name was edwards . Right. Caller and the fact that hes been in front of that committee quite a few times before, and i find that the committee lecturing the epa on being ineffective is like calling the pot calling the kettle black. This is not the first time theyve heard it. What have they done . And thats the scientist from virginia, mr. Edwards. I believe he was at the hearing earlier this week. Brad, thanks for that call. Five more minutes of your phone calls, and were going to show you some of the Opening Statements here in just a bit, as the committees in recess. There are votes there is at least one vote on the house floor over on our companion network, cspan. 2027488920 for democrats, 2027488921 republicans. And all others, 2027488922. Heres a. C. In flint on our others line. Caller good morning, and thank you for accepting my call. I do want to say that i live in flint, michigan. Im a lifelong resident of flint, michigan, so i do know the landscape of flint. I think that the governor has misrepresented the truth. The matter of the fact is that he has really done nothing to support this crisis, this water crisis in flint. He has made many promises of sending money. He says he sent 65 million. I would ask where it is. He is going to send 165 million. Its hung up in the republicancontrolled house. And also, we cannot leave out his appointees, such as darnell earley, ambrose. These individuals were dictators over the residents of the city of flint, over the elected government, and really, they should be prosecuted at the fullest extent of the law. And im going to quote what Hillary Clinton said, that had this happened in a white, suburban area in michigan, the response would have been greater and quicker. And also, the naacp and im delighted to be a Vice President of the flint branch and our national office, cornelia brooks, have sent a 20point demand to the governor. And to date, he has not responded to that. And so, i think that a direct action should be taken against Governor Snyder. A. C. , let me ask you, a couple weeks ago we were talking about this issue, had a caller from michigan who said, basically, everybody in the state knew that the water out of the flint river was among the worst water in the state. The guy seemed to know what he was talking about. He was involved in Water Systems around the state. When the city decided to get off the detroit system and, at least temporarily take their water supply out of the flint river, did that raise red flags with you . Caller well, yes. Listen, im in my 60s, and as children, we didnt play in the river water. We knew back then, because General Motors and the manufacturer had put a lot of toxin in the water. We wouldnt play or swim in the water then. 50 years ago, 51 years ago, they switched to detroit because the water was toxic then. Right. Caller everybody knows. Its a standing joke, you know. I mean, everybody knew. Appreciate your call. Lets get another view from flint. Heres laurie on our democrats line. Thanks for joining us. Caller good morning. Good morning. Caller this is very first off, i do believe that this should be on tv so we can see what is being said and who is saying it, but i also, again, its getting the truth out, but i just wish that they would do something about it. I mean, its right there in your face. Snyder is responsible, e pfgpa, everyone down the line is responsible. But the one the people of flint, we live this every day. We just want clean water, clean water and for people to be held accountable. I have a 10monthold granddaughter. I did not learn about this because i moved back to flint last april, and i didnt know about it then, in 15. But my daughter was we didnt start using bottled water until the beginning of january. 2016 . Caller yes. I had no idea. It was not out like it should be, but we always used bottled water for her formula, but she still bathed in it, we still cooked with it. Can you get her tested for that . Is that something your doctor can do . Caller yes. Shes going to have to be tested. But thank goodness that she didnt drink formula from tap water. We had bottled water from that. Laurie, appreciate your comments. Were asking you your thoughts on the governments role in the flint, michigan, water crisis, hearing from viewers, obviously, and cspan radio listeners, and also keeping an eye on facebook, facebook. Com cspan. A couple of comments. Heres the first one from tracy, who writes that the governor inserted a city manager over all other elected officials in flint. He was over the mayor and city council. People always want politicians to be held accountable for what happens on their watch. Melody says, i am disgusted by this committee. The republicans ask softball questions to snyder and keep trying to hoist the blame on the epa. Robert says if people want to see what is wrong with congress, take a look at these hearings. By the way, we will reair the entire hearings coming up tonight at 8 00 eastern. Well also give you a chance to weigh in. There you go. At 8 00 eastern time. Well give you a chance to weigh in. We expect the committee to come back in and well open up our phone lines as well a bit later on. They should return shortly, but it looks like, i guess they i guess were going to show you some of the Opening Statements from this mornings hearing. Committee on oversight and government reform come to order. Without objection, the chair has authorized to declare a recess at any time. We have the third in a series of hearings that were doing, examining the federal administration of the Safe Drinking Water act dealing with the crisis in flint, michigan. Appreciate the witnesses here today. I also appreciate the strong Public Participation and interest in this hearing. I would remind those that are participating that this is a congressional hearing. We would appreciate your proper the proper decorum in this room. There are to be no shows of expressi expression, positive or negative, and we would appreciate your help in that way. Let me make just a few observations, and then well turn it over to the Ranking Member and get right to the questioning here. There are people still today in flint, michigan, who are waking up this morning, they cant drink the water, and they cant take a shower. Theyre using a bottle of water to drink and theyre using a bottle of water to take a shower. And i cant even imagine my family having to go through that here in the United States of america. I was able to visit flint with a number of members here on this past saturday, and this is a crisis, and it affects a lot of people. And i think these hearings have been very productive. There are people that have been exposed to drinking leadlaced water for more than a year, and this is, i believe, a failure at every level, and i think most everybody has acknowledged that. Lets remember that flint city was a city in crisis. The financial situation was dire at best. The people of michigan made a decision, the Emergency Managers who were put into place, saved dollars. And i think the idea, the desire to reduce the rate of the cost of water as well as improve the quality of water was where this started, but its not where it ended up. At every level in michigan, from the city to the department of public works to the emergency manager to the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, there were failures. Theres questions about the accuracy of the data that was provided. Some of those people were responsible and reported to the governor of michigan, and i appreciate the governor volunteering and suggesting that coming here and testifying before congress to tell his version of the story was an appropriate thing. And governor, i appreciate your willingness to come talk to this body, because there are some serious questions, and we do want to get to the bottom of it. The Congress Also has a responsibility and jurisdiction over the epa, the funding of the epa, obviously, being a federal organization, we have jurisdiction, and its proper and important that we look at things from that perspective as well. In february, Liane Walters, whos in the audience with us today, finally was fed up with what was going on and managed to get a hold of the epa, and miguel del toro from the epa showed up on the scene and started to test the water. He should be highly commended for his actions and the things that he did, and i appreciate Liane Walters and her family for stepping forward and cant even express i just cant even imagine what her and her family and her son, who i met, got a picture with, what theyve been through. By june, the epa clearly knew that this was a crisis. They absolutely knew that this was a problem. And susan hedman is the administrator for the region 5. She definitively knew that there was a problem. The mayor at the time in flint asked what had happened, is it the water safe to drink . He was told, dont pay no the rs written by the epa and actually went on local television and told people it was safe to drink the water. Move forward to september 24th. One of the more troubling things. I want to put up this graphic. This is an internal email. Within the epa. Talking about susan hedman. Perhaps she, susan hedman, already knows this, but im not so sure flint is the community we want to go out on a limb for. End quote. You can take that down. Its one of the more offensive concern things ive seen. There were people, more than one, that were making decisions and thinking that, well, maybe flint isnt the one who we should go out on a limb for. Are you kidding me . Of all the communities out there, flint is the number one place that they should have been going out on a limb for. Its depressed economically. Theyre going through their own economic crisis. Are you kidding me . The epa administrator says that susan hedman was courageous for resigning. It wasnt until january of this year that the epa actually took some definitive action. Later asked about that, mccarthy, the administrator, said that was courageous, courageous. Thats something were going to talk about here today. The lack of action here the lack of letting people know so they can make a decision, its very concerning, very concerning. Lets recognize the Ranking Member mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. And i, too, agree that this is a tragic situation. Lets just be clear, its not just the epa. I take a moment, first of all, to the people of flint, many of whom have come here today. Lined all outside these walls. Unable to get in. And probably feeling left out. But they probably felt left out for a long time. So, mr. Chairman, thank this moment to thank you. You didnt have to do this. I asked you for a hearing. And you granted us three hearings. And i really appreciate that. You see, because i live in a neighborhood where lead is a problem. Im very sensitive to this issue. Governor snyder has been described as running the state of michigan like a business. We well, what if this was a business . What if a ceo ran a company that sold toys laced with lead that children put in their mouths . O what if those children were poisoned as a result . And what if that ceo ignored warnings for more than a year as those kids got sicker and sicker and sicker . Theres no doubt in my mind if a corporate ceo did what Governor Snyders administration has done, he would be hauled up on criminal charges. The board of directors would throw him out and the shareholders would revolt. This is similar to what is happening now to Governor Snyder. The special council for the state Attorney Generals Office has launched an investigation. And he says i didnt say this, he says, that state officials can face charges including breach of duty, gross negligence or even manslaughter. Charges he says are, and i quote, not farfetched, end of quote. On our committee, weve obtained documents showing that people all around the governor, including his chief of staff, were sounding the alarms, but he either ignored them or didnt hear them. So we are talking about quotes. Lets talk about them. In october 2014, the governors top Legal Adviser had warned that flint should, and i quote, get back on the detroit system as a stopgap as soon as possible before this thing is too far out of control. End of quote. Thats the chief of staff. In march of 2015, the governors own chief of staff now, that was his Legal Adviser. But his chief of staff said, in march of 2015, if we procrastinate any longer in doing something direct, well really well have real trouble. End of quote. Thats from the chief of staff. And in july, his chief of staff again warned that Flint Residents, and i quote, are concerned, and rightfully so, about the lead level studies they are receiving. They are basically getting blown off by us. The document reveals failures at every level. And the governors fingerprints are all over this. His department of health and Human Services. His inner circle of top aides. His prefer chafe and his chief of staff. There will now be an entire generation. An entire generation of children who suffer from brain damage. Learning disabilities. And many other horrible effects of lead poisoning that were inflicted on them by Governor Snyders administration. Theyll be many children who will sit in the second and third grade and will not be able to read the words see spot run. And wont know why, but the reason why is because theres lead in their veins. Now republicans are desperately trying to blame everything on the epa. So let me say this. I agree that the epa should have done more. They should have rushed in sooner to rescue the people of michigan from Governor Snyders vindictive administration and his utter incompetence at every level. Committee will come to order. Now recognize the gentleman from georgia for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Administrator mccarthy, im sure im assuming that you either saw or you were briefed on the hearing that was held by this committee this past tuesday, is that correct . I was briefed on it, yes, sir. Okay. Then im sure you are aware that susan hedman, of course former head of region 5, testified under oath that she acted immediately upon the findings regarding the present high level of lead in the water. However, in the same hearing, dr. Edwards, whom you just referred to moments ago, as both an expert and a hero in this whole matter, he repeatedly, time and again, refuted her testimony and thereby obviously the entire regions actions to this thing. Let me start right here. Do you believe that susan hedman provided this committee with false testimony on tuesday . To the best of my knowledge, no, she did not. Okay. Governor, let me ask you the same question. How do you feel about the testimony from miss hedman . In regard to the epa acting immediately upon getting information . Congress ma, i appreciate oh, im sorry. Congressman, i appreciate your question. Thats why i had that moment where i cited three emails in particular that were epa emails to the deq and it was talking about their partnership to work these issues and no flag was going up. Im sorry, i heard this entire discussion about the law and this issue of saying you couldnt do things or do this or that because of the the law. I have a really simple question. Why didnt susan hedman just call dan wyatt . Why didnt administrator mccarthy just get on the phone and call me . This is not Technical Compliance again. This is the culture that got us into the mess to start with. Where is common sense . All right, let me continue on. Thank you for your answer. Miss mccarthy, so is it your testimony today under oath that you believe that susan headman and region 5 did act immediately and do everything they could upon hearing information . They did, and they sought additional information. They did reach out. They consistently, from april on, when they found out there was no Corrosion Control all right, we have conflicting info on that, but that is your testimony under oath just like everybody to look at the entire email record we are. Speaking of emails. In september of last year, you were praising susan hedman and other epa officials for their work on the flint water crisis. Do you believe that praise of miss hedman was warranted . I do. Okay. I have here two letters. One written to well, written from in fact, mr. Kildy, written to you in september, and it was asking you, begging you, please, get involved in this situation, are you familiar with that letter . Yes, sir. Okay. You did not respond to that letter. Susan hedman responded im assuming in your behalf. Did you authorize her to do so . Yes, did i. Her response basically just fluffed off the entire thing. And by the way, mr. Chairman, i would like both of these letters to be submitted for the record. Without objection, so ordered. And all of this is taking place in september, a time when you were praising. Did you at the same time praise del toral . I actually did not know miguel del toral at that point in time. So you were not aware of the report or any in september i was aware of the report. I did not know him in particular. Could okay, but you were aware of what he had brought forth. You were not praising him but you were praising headman at the time. If you read it, its to her and her team and he was a vital member of that team. So are you aware of any retaliation against del toral . No, im not, sir. So and yet we have we have testimony or we have records that reflect he was certainly was retaliated against and was fearful of greater retaliation, but youre saying you have no knowledge of that whatsoever . I do not believe he was retallated against. I have no information that indicated he was. Okay. Mr. Chairman, i cede my further questions. Time is expired. We now recognize the gentle woman from illinois miss kelly for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chair. Thank the witnesses for being here. Governor, i just had a question. Are there any arrangements being made for the people of flint to get their money back for paying for water that obviously is damaging . That process has been set up. The appropriation has been made. Okay. Again, people shouldnt have to pay for that water i agree. What we did, we did an analysis. Theres a water and sewer bill. The sewer piece is a separate issue. With respect to the water bill, we tried to do a calculation. We roughly said about half the water was for drinking, cooking, those kinds of activities. The rest is for flushing your toilet, doing your laundry. We rounded up to 65 . We went back in the records to april of 2014 through the period again, we for our math, we used the end of april 2016. Im not saying it will be done by then and well add months if we need to. We did a calculation. 65 of the water portion of the water and sewer bill amounted to 30 million roughly. I went and asked for supplemental appropriation. The legislatures were very supportive. Weve got that in place. Now were working with the city which actually runs the utility to have some Software Programming done so we can apply it as a credit on their bill. And the way it should work is, as we get this set up okay, i just wanted im association sorry, i jus working hard to get this taken care of. As the chair of the trust for the congressional black caucus, part of my mission is to look out for health care for underserved communities, lowincome communities and communities of color. I have to tell you, this really reeks of environmental racism, in my opinion. The states refusal to implement course control. Lets walk through this quickly. Governor snyders Administration Made the switch to the flint river in april 2014. They initially told the epa they had Corrosion Control in place, is that right . Thats correct. Okay. But that was wrong. They didnt have it. According to the governors own task force, they told the city it was, quote, not necessary. Epa discovered this. On april 24th, 2015, epa official miguel del toral sent a letter to Governor Snyders administration. He wrote, and quote, as far as treatment determination, there are only two scenarios for a large system to be deemed to have optimized Corrosion Control without treatment and flint does not appear to meet either. Is that correct . That is correct. Okay. Heres where i get really concerned. To implement Corrosion Control, they didnt do it. Months went by with no action by the state. On august 17th, 2015, the Michigan Department of environmental equality. To fully optimize Corrosion Control treatment within six months. So the states response didnt happen until august. That was four months after the epa warned Governor Snyders administration they had to do something. Is that right . Thats correct. Also to me, six months seems ridiculously long time to wait when lead has been leaching from the pipes. Do you agree . Yes, i do. Six months is too long to wait. The state never implemented Corrosion Control prior to the switch back to the Detroit River in october. In december, the governors own task foeshrce concluded the acts of snyders administration, and i quote, led directly to the contamination of the flint water system. Do you agree with that finding . Yes. I know people have asked do you have any regrets or do you wish epa had done anything differently . It seems like snyder and his administration were fighting you at every turn. They were completely unable to handle the crisis. Looking back, do you reget you didnt recognize the utter dysfunction in the state sooner so you could step in and take away control from governor schneider and his administration . I think there were dots we could have connected. I think we spent way too long trusting the state that they were doing the right thing. We begged to provide them Technical Assistance beginning in march. We begged them beginning in april to do Corrosion Control. We begged them at the city level and the state level with personal communications as well as professional. Because youre hearing it today. And ive heard that, you know, accusations that epa was too slow in responding to the flint crisis. I agree epa should have acted more quickly to rescue the people of flint from this mismanagement of the governor and his administration. But it is the state that has the primary authority to enforce the Safe Drinking Water act, correct. Thats correct. The hurdle to have done that we didnt have the data to tell us the scope of the problem and we didnt have the ability then because they kept saying they were going to fix it. Thats the way the law requires us to act. Thank you. I also feel its very ironic that michigans slogan was pure michigan. Because that was not the case. Thank you. I yield back. Now recognize the gentleman from alabama mr. Palmer for five minutes. Mr. Palmers over here. Mr. Chairman, i just got my noteboo notebook. Can i yield and come back yes. Leapt lets recognize the gentleman from arizona. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think okay. Well, miss mccarthy, how serious do you consider lead poisoning in humans, especially children . Its one of the most serious things we face, sir. Wow, okay. So lets go back. Because in july of 2015, flint mayor Dayne Walling emailed susan hedman about a leaked memo sent by del toral to a flint resident. Revealed that flints water tested high for lead and del toral recommend the epa intervene. Hedman replied the memo should not have been leaked and did nothing to address the serious threat. When you were made aware of these communications between miss headman and mayor wallings, did you ask miss headmdman to resign . I dont believe she indicated no, this is factual so im trying to just get the facts the facts are here, so, i mean, knowing this, did you ask her to resign . No, sir, because i mean, so why not fire her . Sir, her i mean, you know the seriousness of this issue and yet you still dont do that. In fact, im going to quote you, you praised her when she when she resigned. She was not i mean she was not criticizing miguels report. She was indicating it was interim, there was more data to be done and she was giving a heads up because she knew it had gone public okay, so you know about the seriousness of lead poisening and yet this is the action you take. Once again, im going to step you back. You made another comment here earlier that is insulting to us. Congress is specific on this about states rights and not stepping on them. I want you to go back and start looking at your edit in regards to waters of the u. S. Lets keep going. Is that a serious response, really, in regards what your response to miss hedman, is that seriously a response for somebody who understands the complexity and seriousness of lead poisoning . Thats appropriate response . She did nothing to thats my point she did nothing. The point is, you know better. She knows better. All we this is not my first rodeo with you. Over and over again, weve got it. Remember southwest colorado . And you actually had there too . Theres a responsibility. Look at the gentleman next to you as taking responsibility. Im looking at somebody else. I want to see responsibility too. The American People deserve, demand it. I mean, all ive seen ive seen the chairman over and over again. You still dont get it. Member after member. You still dont get it. You have bred a culture at epa that is built of fraud, denial, incompetence and bureaucratic nepotism. Sir, im not trying to shift responsibility yes, you have. This whole hearing, thats all youve done. Youve never taken accountability for any of the problems at epa. Its we could have done something better. Do you admit wrong . Maybe we could have done something a little faster. The time lines are very are very fluid and very factual. So let me ask you another question. Im going to go back to another thing. The committee has made multiple requests for epas documents relating to flint. When do you expect those requ t requests to be fully complied with . Sir, were working on all the requests give me a date. A date. I mean, you are you are professional at slowwalking and delaying information that is pertinent to this investigation. Over and over again. Some of the document productions have been redacted. Will you provide this committee with the full unredacted copies . Well, we released just 30,000 documents, sir. Well keep releasing those i asked you a question no, no, no, i asked you a question. Specific terms. Are you going to release unredacted forms these emails . Of course well respond to congress and allow you to do your jobs as well yeah, yeah, thats the same old same old crap we hear over and over again. And that is not what the president promised us. He said the most Transparent Administration period. And that includes you. I mean, im sick of this. And america should be sick of this bureaucratic interceptoi n. I see somebody whos addressing it right here as governor of michigan. I dont see anything coming from your part of the problem. It doesnt condone that. Not only am i asking you to be fired, if youre not going to resign, you should be impeached. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Now recognize the gentle woman from michigan Miss Lawrence for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chair. I want to say as a member of congress representing a part of michigan this is very personal. Its a sad day for me. Governor snyder, you have stated that state officials did not tell you about these problems. As a matter of fact, in your statement, you swore oath. You said it wasnt until october that you were aware of the problems. But governor, despite the huge numbers of news stories that were reported far and wide, let me show you some of those headlines. On june 2nd, 2014, only months after switching to the flint water, nbc 25 stated Flint Residents avoiding the tap drinking bottled water instead. On june 30th, 2014, nbc 25 read the headline story, sewage released into the flint river due to pump failure. It continues. Little over a month, Detroit Metro times ran, Flint Residents concerned over discolored water. And it continues. On september 7th, 2014, Michigan Live ran, flint expends boil water advisory after more positive tests for total bacteria. And then it continues. On january 2nd, 2015, city warns of potential health risk after flint water test revealed too much bacteria. It continues. March 2015. The detroit news said, Flint Council voted for detroit water. Mayor and em are opposed. Did any of these reports and stones ever get reported to you . Did you ever observe them . Because according to your statement under oath, it was not until october that you became aware. Theres a difference in terms of what i became aware of. I was aware of water proble