Now we return to the civil war conference at Gettysburg College for a conversation on shipwrecks during the civil war. This is just under an hour. Good afternoon, everyone. I am pete carmichael, professor of history at Gettysburg College, also the director of the Civil War Institute. Its my pleasure to welcome laura. Laura is a graduate of penn state university, during her summers she spent time as a seasonal historian at Gettysburg National park. She then went on to unc greensboro where laura and i spent time together and i was her mentor for a year before i went on to West Virginia university. Laura did complete her masters at uncg and then shes had a very varied career in the field of public history. Her first job was at stratford hall, the birthplace of the robert e. Lee. Recently, she is the deputy education director at the Hampton Roads naval museum. Shes been there since 2010. Obviously, she works as an educator there and does specia , events. Shes also worked at fort monroe casement museum. Today she will be speakering to us about civil war shipwrecks which is very unusual. In my seven years here i dont think weve done anything that hasnt been on land. We havent done any Naval Operations at all. Shell be talking about the shipwrecks of the uss cumberland and the csa florida, before she comes on stage, note that laura and her husband have recently published a book and you can see a copy of it just in front of the podium. The title of that book is never call me a hero. A legendary american bomber pilot remembers the battle of midway. Let me introduce laura lawfer. [ applause ] good afternoon. How is everybody . Good. Stay awake after lunch, okay . No, i have to actually start out with a matter of disclosure. While i work for the United States navy at the Hampton Roads naval museum, everything you hear today is my opinion. Its not endorsed by the u. S. Navy. I always have to start out with that disclosure, and i think youll kind of see why as we go through this talk today. Um, one of the things that well focus on is civil war battlefields. In a different way than you usually do. Were losing the fight to preserve some civil war battlefields. You might not know it especially here in gettysburg where over 6,000 acres have been saved, but on an important front, Civil War Preservation is unfortunately, failing. Navy wrecks have been plundered, abused by unscrupulous individuals who see underwater wrecks as salvage, as relic piles free from seizure and exploitation and this shadows all wreck around the world and sunken ships and planes the final resting place for sailors and the wrecks sit unprotected. Sorry to interrupt. Perfect. The wrecks sit unprotected and theyre victims of divers and plunderers who seek to take pieces of those wrecks for themselves. Of course navy wrecks are hard to reach and they sit on the battle of vast oceans to get to them, but Civil War Navy wrecks are particularly vulnerable because they sank in shallow waters where deep sea diving equipment isnt necessary to loop those wrecks. The story that id like to tell today is about two ships, the css cumberland and the css florida and i think their time in the water is just as interesting as their time afloat. So i hope by the end of this that you appreciate the plight of the civil war wrecks in the Hampton Roads area. Many years, these ships were victims of intentional plunder. Since the end of the civil war, the u. S. Navy has claimed and held official ownership of both wrecks, but over the passage of time our vast fleet has consistently lacked the necessary resources to protect these aquatic graveyard. In the 20th century, Virginia Waterman looted and pillaged these ships under the guise of clamming and fishing. Today, were on the verge of losing the wrecks, wiping from the face of the earth the last vestiges of these crucial naval action in the mid atlantic. The story of uss cumberland and css florida in short, plunder of the wrecks was a part of the organization entrusted to their care, the u. S. Navy. Before i tell the sad story, though, let me first introduce you to these two ships. Its logical, i think, to begin with the uss cumberland, the fabled ship sunk by the uss virginia during the battle of Hampton Roads. Prior to its destruction, cumberland was one of the finest vessels in the federal fleet. Built at the Boston Navy Yard and launched in may 1842, the three masted 175foot long frigate served in the navy for about two decades. In the 1840s, cumberland took part in three mediterranean cruises and served as a flagship during the mexicanamerican war. In 1856, the navy sent cumberland to the navy yard where workers converted it into a slew of war by cutting down a deck and refitting the ships armament. After the ships refitting and for a couple of years, cumberland cruised off of africa, patrolling for the suppression of the african slave trade. By the time the civil war began in 1861, cumberland boasted 22 nineinch grants and two teninch pivot guns. These monster guns weighed 12,000 pounds each and they fired 100pound shell and at the time they were some of the largest pieces of naval artillery in the world. The beginning of the civil war, cumberland was moored at the navy yard in portsmouth, virginia. The ship was towed to safety when the confederates took over the shipyard. For the next year, cumberland participated in the blockading squadron, the slew of warren gauged Confederate Forces in several actions and captured a small number of ships in the harbor. Additionally, cumberland was a part of the force that captured the force at cape hatter as. Uss cumberland met its match when dueling, the converted iron clad css virginia for many months the men of cumberland had been aware from the construct you are of the virginia made from the captured hull when merrymack was burned in the beginning of the war. They drilled in preparation for this inevitable encounter. All that training did nothing to help them. That fateful morning as cumberland opened fire with the forward gun, the confederate iron clad responded with a shot that burst through the star board side killing and wounding nine marines right off the bat. The second shell from virginia took out an entire gun crew except for the powder boy. The iron clad maintained a position off the union ships bow. They kept up firing at cumberland, as the ship lay helplessly at anchor, unable to bring its broad side battery to bear against the attacker and the slack wind and tide. Virginia moved away from the victims bow, esteemed directly from the star board side, piercing the hole below the birth deck with the deadly ram on the front of the virginia. For several moments issue the iron clad could not extricate itself. As cumberland began to sink, it appeared that the two vessels might sink together. Fortunately, for the confederates, the rand broke off and freed the virginia, but in so doing its actions exposed the ship to the cumberlands broad side. The union ship was doomed. All aboard knew it. Amazingly, no uninjured gunners left their stations. They realized they had an opportunity to retaliate, despite their devastating losses, the Union Sailors intensified their efforts and the dead were thrown to the port side and the wounded carried below. They fired three broad sides, but none of them pierced the iron clads armor. At this point, someone on the virginia yelled over to the cumberlands Commanding Officer to lieutenant George Morris asking if cumberland would surrender. Morris replied, never, we will sink with our colors flying. Finally around 3 30, cumberlands batch sub merged and morris gave the order to jump ship causing the ship to lurch forward and it bounced first to the bottom of the river carrying 121 men down with her. In the aftermath, cumberland became famous. Most importantly, the ship had snapped off virginias ramp weakening the ship, enabling the uss monitor which came in the next day to pummel it and drive it back to its berth. There, two months later the virginia was intentionally destroyed by Confederate Forces. Throughout the rest of the civil war, u. S. Soldiers and sailors routinely visited the site of cumberland, easily accessible at that point by its mast sticking out of the water. U. S. Troops recognized the sacrifice of the cumberland crew, and they paid homage to the dead, recognizing that section of the james river as hallowed ground. Two years and eight months later, another important war ship joined cumberland on the bottom of the james river. The confederate commerce raider, css florida, first of the foreign built raiders. Css florida was constructed in secret in the liverpool shipyard, a roos tried to persuade union agents that was intended for service in the union navy. Using a dispatched gunboat, the vessel was designed for speed and maneuverability, and it could operate under both sail and steam. On march 22, 1862, it went to sea, sailed in the bahamas where the Navy Captain John moffett had command and he christened the vessel, css florida and his crew loaded ammunitions and a battery of guns. As a raider, florida was incredibly successful. During its very first cruise it captured 25 merchant ships including the jacob bell and a ship called the unita. The cargo value on the ships was 1. 5 million and 1 million. This was civil war money so imagine today. It was a huge capture for css florida. They became sat lights of the florida and they accounted for an additional 22 ship seizures. After an extended layover in france they captured 13 more merchant ships in 1864. That year the New York Times printed an editorial accusing the navy of a lack of diligence in its efforts to catch the troublesome raider. The author deunderstamanded him. He was a source of the incompetency because he believed that wells hadnt sent enough ships out to try to catch raiders like the florida. Floridas career ended in october 1864. When it was rammed and hijacked by usswatwoset. They were in the neutral brazilian port of bahia. The captain spotted the raider there, it was anchored in port under the cover of darkness he ordered the ship rammed and sunk. When the ramming failed he decided he would seize the ship and tow it out of port and take it all of the way out to Hampton Roads. The union crew towed the confederate vessel back to the United States. They anchored it off Lower Newport news, virginia. There the ship sank under mysterious circumstances. The morning of november 28, 1864. Although a u. S. Government investigation concluded that thest vessel was because of mechanical failures specifically blaming leakage and pump failure, most likely, the crew of uss wachuset. After all, floridas abduction from a neutral port had created a bit of an international dispute and the navy had been required it apologize publicly for the incident. Years later, floridas captain, john moffett reporteded that in a conversation with david dixon porter. He said that porter admitted the order to sink the ship which he called that rebel craft. In short, Hampton Roads became the final resting place for two famous war ships from the civil war. One union and one confederate. It didnt take long for questions to arise about their preservation. After the battle of hampton road, the federal government experienced interest in raising the sunken remains of uss cumberland . Ownership of the wreck was never in dispute during the war. The territorial clause of the u. S. Constitution made it clear that all u. S. Naval wrecks around the world remain property of the navy. It didnt matter if that wreck was on the bottom of the marianas trench or had run a ground in cape may, if it once belonged to the navy it always belonged to the navy. Immediately after the battle of hampton road, the navy expressed interest in bringing up cumberland and seeing if it could be reused. In may 1862. The secretary of the Navy Gideon Wells hired massachusetts salvage diver maureen baits to conduct a preliminary survey of the wreck and his report which was the earliest account of conditions on the sunken war ship was not optimistic at all. He wrote, the cumberland lies in 66 feet of water, deppeply embedded in the mud, and the water is very thick and with some difficulty, we could get a bow. Everything appears in confusion down there. Baits concluded that the damage sustained by the vessel was too extensive to justify the cost of raising it. However, the u. S. Navy continued to find ways to recover reusable property, such as loose canon barrels that theyd reused. For the next decade, the government sold the rights of recovery to a secession of salvage firms. Incidentally, this creates issues in later years because in the 19th century they sell salvage rights and it comes up as a question for some divers that im going to talk about in a little while. Although the u. S. Government received 8,000 for the rights to dive on the ship, nothing less than a congressional act can remove a ship from the ownership of the u. S. Government. Even a Philadelphia Inquirer article from february 1864 noted that the navy would retain all rights to the ship including everything of both military and historic value. The article reminded potential divers that nothing they found on the ship was theirs stating bidders for this contract will take into consideration that the government requires that the frigate cumberland and whatever may be onboard her either public or private property will be delivered to the navy yard at gosport, virginia. However, such restrictions about artifacts did not deter daring divers. More than anything, the government hired and wanted to retrieve the paymasters save which reportedly contained a minimum of 40,000 in gold specie. It turned out to be something of a hoax. In 1875 a detroit Salvage Company claimed to find the pay masters save and found no gold in it. He was a newport news resident and wrote memoirs that talked about the activities in the postcivil war era and hes the only one that really did. No one knew it was done with the safe. It was never reported that any gold was taken from it. Never the little, as years passed, divers continued to believe that a mysterious yankee treasure lay in thediving was n dangers surrounded anyone who attended the 60foot dive. Germans salvage had a plan to reach the safe by putting dynamite under the string of the rack and blowing a hole into the masterss cabin. Handle live explosives in americaky water without even a porter underwater lamp. He groped in utter darkness, risking cavens and failures associated with his crews and cumbersome breeding apparatus. The news reported the diver was brought up unconscious several times. He was a meant did looking fellow when we first met, this deep water diving rendered his health. He reduced rapidly and did not live long. Meanwhile, as divers wen to work blowing apart cumberland, the u. S. Expressed capital interest in cs can florida. At the collectinclusion of the war all when the Government Services administration is created in the 1950s, the organization took hold of the confederate artd facts including the ship wrecks. In modern time, the navy wishes to studio nikon fed rat vessel, the navy has to officially request the g s a turn over the materials of those ships one at a time. The transfer of control from the treasury to the navy occurred shortly before that. In any event, although ownership of the wreck was questionable in 1864, by 1865, it was not. Regrettably official reports concerning the progress and extent of postwar salvage ormgss on florida, both government and priet are pretty much none exist tan. The commerce rater was striped by higher diverers of the war. Unfortunately wen west to witness much of this operation, declined to elaborate on the nature of these activities, except to say, the florida must have been magnificently built for the divers so the rooms were having handsomely decorated. If they could see the decorations through all the floating silt and aquatic life then florida must have sunk in excellent conditions. From that point on, the memory of kucumberland and florida quickly failed except for brief periods when we vooifed in interest in the 1930s and 1940s. The only major recovery occurred in the 1920s when government hired divers. For the next 60 years, no documented activity took place. Thats not to say that no one dove on the ship wrecks, and plundered them for art facts, in fact many watermen did just that. The middle decades of the 20th century became somewhat of a heyday. Many owns the technology they needed to dive under waters. Its important tomorrow too the United States really didnt take hold until the 1960s and ship wrecks were not at the top of the list for preservation focus. At the same time many important art facts may have been lost during these decades because of ignorance and outright vandalism. The ram for c s s virginia was lost and hasnt been found. It doesnt show up on any readings of the cumberland or any areas around the ships. So a question remains, did an enterprising watermen in the 19th century find the art facts and bring the rama, the answer may never did known. Official interests in the wrecks didnt occur again until 1980. So many years had past, that the wrecks had to be relocated. Still the navy expressed no interest in jurn writing our pre preservationist campaigns. Popular novelist Clyde Cussler led the effort. He served as a chairman as the National Underwater marine agency. It was a private organization dedicated to the preservation of meritime heritage. In 1980 he decided to pursue his long standing interest in the two ships. He believed both ships told an important story about the Civil War Navy and believed both ships has a number of art facts on them that should be brought up and preserved. He hired a washington base researcher, contacted a local historian who calculated the locations for the sun envessels. The one thing that cussler failed to do was make any contact with the owners of the two wrecks, the u. S. Navy. A decision that ultimately set in motion events that led to a bitter rivalry between his group and the navy. The state Archaeological Group he worked with established a survey area in the lower virginia river which, according to the research offer a greater potential for retaining the remains in the sunken ships. Initially they could not find the wrecks, so, another year went by, cussler wen back, he contracted with the underwater archaeological joint ventures this time. And the joint Ventures Firm reached out to local watermen. They contacted local watermen who fished in the area you see on your map here in the box, and they tried to obtain the location of the ships or any information about recovery of art facts from that area. Eventually, they found a man named wilbur riley. He was a veteran clamber of the new york and james rivers and he reportedly knew the location of the wreck right off of new port news. He candidated he had retrieved a numb of objects from it already. Similar reports regarding ship wrecks, cannon and sunken treasures and Virginia Water in the pags usually proved to be without foundation. This time, riley described how he first discovered the wreck after four or five years of clamming and then he lost a pair of clam tongs in the james river. He tried to retrieve them, he discovered a brass sword hill and handle that was decorated with a design and the matter of the navy during civil war. He also tonged from the site a large copper cylinder. That odor a striking resemblance to the bill porch pipe. Further more he thought the wreck was 65 feet below the service which is about what was expected of uss cumberland. The artifacts and description of the location of the ship warned an investigation. The clamber offered to help find the help. Several days later he shorten his dawn to dusk workday and transported a dive team to the site. Without the benefit right over the spot where his visual calculation of land indicated the wreck was lying. Given how difficult it was to find the wrecks with modern technology it suggests riley had probably taken artifacts from the recognize several times before since he was to find it so quickly. As they extended their search line to began a symptom mask sweep of the river bed they encountered re encountered wreckage. They collected some artifacts to help identify the ship. One was a white iron stoned plate, little fragment. It had a manufacturers name and mark on it. This established a pot shuerd a a product of england. They also found a reserved pair of brass call veries, a device used to measure the diameter in cannon wars. Finally, divers found a a bow. The a bow was used to be sure a ball would be seated in the bottom of can bond bore in order to prevent an explosion when the tube was fired. Its most inintriguing figure to the diverers was its 9inch diameter. The evidence suggested the wreck was a final resting place of cumberland. With cumberlands location known the next day, the dive team wen looking for cs is florida. While offshore from the shipyards of newport news the diefrers found the boat and dropped a bowie. They found concentrated debris showing theres a ship there and got a few artifacts. A liquor bottle dating to the correct time period. A leather band and a hoop of unknown function but probably one of the brass ornaments in the Florida State rooms. As the salvage divers noted back in 1965 reaching the cumberland and florida was not an easy task. Swift currency and invisibility almost hindered the operations. Water death, over 600 feet at each site. The holes in propeller blades and tankers and barges that made their way up and down the river represented a constant source of concern to divers during their accent and descent. By far the greatest cause of con stern nation was the appearance of site marking bowies which was dragged away every night as vessels passed by the two wreck sites. The two ships sat in very different states of reservation. Florida was in an undisturbed condition. It was consistent with the ships peaceful demice whereas uss cumberland was barely held together. And passing ships over the decades. Accounted for the vessels shattered state. At some point, an anonymous quantity of dredge spoil that was dredged out of river for the shipyard nearby, they were dumped over top of the wreck, prompting george west that early memoir reince to conclude no doubt now the boat is entirely covered over. Even so, cumberland still possess artifacts. Custom fitted with a broken piece of mirror glass, fashioned by a common seaman, first personal use. They recovered a ship spell, one and a half feet high. This was the bell that range to send the crew to general quarters as c s s virginia game up the river. After all, his team had brought up artifacts without turning them directly over to the navy and admirals in the u. S. Navy were not happy about it. When the first dive on the uss cumberland and florida ended people under the expectation theyd eventually go to some Agency Associated with virginia. Officially as weve talked about both wrecks are owned by the United States navy. At the time the navy didnt have a permitting process for diving on the ship which meant they had no way of educating historians about the ship and their ownership. Thus, cuss cler expressed surprise after finding out the navy wanted the artifacts back. When he learned of this it became a bitter battle. For months he refused to turn over the artifacts. He argued since he was the one that wen and got the artifacts they were his and he can give them to who ever he wanted to. Only through the intervention of the navy court judge and the museum did those artifacts eventually go back to the navy. Cussl cussler forgave the navy for its intervention. In his 1966, sea hunters. Tinged with visit yall he blamed the navy for all his misforns. He wrotes it seems the navy had a dream, it seems my two years and research and small fortune i spent by the project was for the navys sole benefit. He claimed the navy owned both ships and all bits and pieces thereof. Demonstrating a deaf nan lack of style and sfigs case the navy threat tond go to court. Because the area was filled with 30,000 jobs, the commonwealth of virginia rolled over and through in the towel. Cussler had a point in some ways. The u. S. Navy wasnt communicative, failed to give him any specifics or provide any security for those ships. It had created a situation where a wellmeaning diver went down to work on behalf of preservation but failed because the navy kept him ignorant of the rules. In the end, cussler and his team did the work and the navy reaped benefits. Even in the end, even in defeat cussler believed he was always in the right, lamenting that the navy had not a peg leg as he put it, to stand on. In truth though, the law sided with the navy. The u. S. Constitutions property clause followed by the ship wreck act in 1987 placed ownership in the navys possession. Legally cussler and hteam of underwater of archaeologyist were no different than the lootders who had been plundering the wrecks years before. In his book he argued the navy had sold the rights back to cumberland, back in 1962. He believed no confederate ship could be possibly owned by the government. His argument held no legal standing by underscored a larger problem. Most Virginia Watermen believe that cussler did, the navy didnt own the wrecks, they were free to be looted. Once the cat was out of the bag a frantic feeding friend zs zee occurred among army men. For the next ten years, the cumberland and florida wrecks possess no protection from looters who went after the ships with a vengeance. Mostly crabbers and fishermen began looting the artifacts from the wrecks. Word among the local water men was that many had their own material from the crew wrecks and probably from the others in the area this were not civil warship wrecks. For generations they adopted a mentality, if they had the mean to haul something off the bottom it was theirs. This forms a greater threat to battlefields of the civil war. Locals continue to see the ship says salvage, not as hallow ground. Hamilton residence remember that 121 men wen down with the ship when cumberland sank in 1962. Those men are still bureauried with the ship. When the looters go in to take artifacts they disturb military graves at the same time. Luckily the civil war blast with a community of private narnlist. It was a Historical Society who brought the issue of loot into the governments attention. In 1989 men were fount of artifacts bothering from cumberland and florida. He sent a war magazine which organizations limited brass buckle made from the cs is florida. Looters had been hooking glass and given it to brass men who melted it down. The government the navy criminal investigate services of n s nci s and the fbi. Search warrant filed in u. S. District court noted the search sought u. S. Property stolen from cumberland wreckage and brass and copper spikes taken from the florida and melted down into belt buckles. The fbi recovered the artifacts but it left some unanswered legal questions. The defendants included four people, lary stevens and Gary Williams who owned the artifacts given to them. And gene chris stan. The men challenged the fbi saying the looting was accidental. They said they didnt know the providence of the artifacts and didnt know trading and selling them was wrong. One of the accused, eugene chris pen said were just out there trying to catch clams. I would have thrown the stuff back overboard if i would have known it was government property. However many historian doubted the sinceritity of the looters word. They believe the men deliberately disturbed the ships for the soul purpose of taking artifacts. David cooper argued, these watermen were not prosecuted for casual and unintentional recovery of artifacts in the course of normal commercial and shellfishing activities. They were prosecuted for deliberate and unauthorized commercial employ tags of a naval wreck and anticties that were property of the federal government. To the end, the accused claimed they didnt know that they werent allowed to take artifacts from the wrecks and sell them, arguing there should have been security on the ship wrecks to prevent them from plowing their trade. In essence they, im assuming out on the water needed a sign to tell them looting was illegal. One underwater archaeologyist noted if someone wanted to go out and dig up the gettysburg battlefield because no one else was doing anything about it, would that make it right. He said, ignorance of the law is no excuse for taking items from the ship which are listed among the virginias historic land marks. You can blow up the trade center and say you didnt know it was wrong. Keep in mind he said this back in 1993, the same year the World Trade Center was attacked for the first time. The two men pleaded guilty to the charges of 40,000 in real lacks. They faced up to 2 years in prison and 250,000 for their crimes. They ended up getting a federal condition but the Court Allowed them to go free while repaying minimal finds with the understanding theyd return all artifacts to the u. S. Navy and never do this again. The two men whom was given the artifacts to sell plead guilty to misdemeanor fines. The 1993 prosecution of crist man, hastings and williams caused the navy to take preservation more seriously. The nhhc archaeologist argued the clause of constitution wasnt enough to protect the shift properly. It didnt specify the artifacts from the military wrecks went to the navy. So after 14 years, the law makers corrected this problem. In 2004, president george bush signed into law the sunken military craft act. While no single action made the sunken military craft act happen, several court cases, many of which involve sunken, foreign sunken military craft of the coast of the u. S. Eventually led the passage of this act. The sunken military craft act or the sf ca it was called protected ships and planes belonging to the Armed Services from unauthorized disturbance. It included all vessels in american waters, including all Foreign Military craft. Pursuant to the s mca, the navys sunken military craft remain property of the u. S. Regardless of the location and passage of time and cant be disturbed without permission from the u. S. Navy. The s mca also allowed the heads of the Seamen Service to begin permitting program. They allow people to dive on the wreck temporary historical purposes providing they do nothing to disturb the wrecks. Additionally the fines for violating the fact are incredibly high. The government can charge violators 100,000 per day for violating by diving without a permit. They can also fine them for any damages believed to be incurred on the wrecks during this time. Finally, the divers Research Vessels can be be con if i skated by the government. With this act theres a stronger mechanism to protect the ships. The s mca similarly strengthen the protection from looters. Looters have little knowledge of the acts existence, if they did some would probably not care. In reality, plunders dive down for a different reason. After the war on terror began in 2001, ship buildings imposed heightened security measures that prevented unauthorized boaters from getting near the shipyard. From personal experience i know it doesnt take more than a few minutes for a police boat to accost any craft anchored above these two civil warship wrecks. In 2001 i to conduct the latest surveys of these two wrecks. Police boats came by to ensure we were of no threat to the yards. During expedition, we found the wrecks to be in poor condition. Both covered over with large pile of silt which is to be expected in this hightraffic area of the river. Nowadays its difficult to identify the exact shape of the uss cumberland. Its more than an significant lot on the bottom of the river. Probably there are no artifacts left to be found but one wonders how many are still out there in the museums of looters. At some point the war on terror will come to an end. Water borders and security measures at newport shipbuilding could cease. On that day, the ships would no longer be protected as they are now. Divers will be able to plunding them once again. It goes without saying that one day the passage of time will obliterate these wrecks. We cant reserve them in water forever. It seems wrong to hasten their destruction through artificial means. For years human has allowed that to occur. Presently, uss cumberland and cs is florida are on the board of extinction. It will be incorrect to say that the navy does not care about these vessels, on the contrary the navy cares about them a great deal. After all, these wrecks are the final resting place for those who gave their lives that our nation might live. As admirable sam cox said last year, if we expect sailors to fight and die for our country, the at least we can do as a navy and a nation is to remember them. We make the promise to the families of those fallen in battle or lost at sea that we will never forget their loved ones sacrifice. I believe the u. S. Navy has a moral obligation to keep its word. In the case of uss cumberland the sailors lives need to be given out of the water. Navy wrecks need to have the same drchders has battle land do. The idea of the people who consider metal detecting at Gettysburg Museum as a form of heirsy its not then the fair failure of one institution but the failure of a community to protect or nations navy heritage. If we dont act we will lose the fight to preserve navy battles and if we lose this fight well lose that history forever. Thank you. So, i have a few artifacts that i brought along to show you. I am holding here a piece of uss cumberland. There was part of the loot plundered in the early 1990s by the men i talked about. One of the reasons i can stand here and hold it without gloves is because they sha lacked it, so it is not a museum artifact. At the same time this helps us out because its part of our education collection. We can take this to schools and kids can hold a piece of the uss cumberland when theyre doing their battle of hamilton roads program. This is something you dont get to do most places. Afterwards once we take questions follow up to come up i have a couple pieces of the cumberland which youre welcome to touch. I have some of the evidence books that the fbi took and theres a couple a glass bottle that was found and there are some of the brass reenactor belt buckles as well so youre welcome to come up and look at some of this and i can talk to you one on one. But in the meantime, ill take a couple questions. Yes . Thank you so much for your fascinating talk. Youve talked about now what can be done by the navy and government to punish those who do this. Is there much that can be done to really protect . I suppose its the hundley and elements of the monitor have been brought up and are now safely or as safely as they can be in their very special tanks in museums. Is that a solution for some elements of this, others that you know if you you bring them up on their own will just deter rate or is there more that can be done, beyond, war on terrorism, levels of security over some of these places . I think thats probably the best way to preserve, bringing up what you can. At this moint most of the later packets have been brought up from these two ship wrecks. Yeah bringing up the monitor rat and attacking them to a museum, t the problem is the cost. Luckily the manners museum and partnered on that. That is what needs to be done to preserve these ship wrecks. It depends too on whether its a grave. If its a grave thats one of those big questions, do you bring it up, you probably do not. I know when they brought it up they didnt expect to find bodies and skeletons inside but they did. I think the best way to preserve these ship wrecks is to either completely leave them alone or bring up what you can and to museums. Its difficult to teach nay vallejo history because you dont have the place like you have with any of the field battlefields. You come to gettysburg and stand on the field and you can envision what happened. So its hard for people to envision that. The best way is to definitely have those artifacts. Thank you. Thank you. Lee fisher from oxford, ohio. Being in the Archaeological Community i understand all of the issues, but do you think the navy will ever put the money out to do the preservation it wants . And if no is the answer to that question, what about Public Private partnerships that have preserved land sites in some meritime sites all over the world or are they sitting there saying, no we dont want you to do that but no were not going to mutt the money up to help you . Whats going on there . I would say the navy will probably never have the money for this. In the past 20 years they have gotten better, they have funded the Archaeology Branch the Naval Heritage and they go out and do readings on shape beyond a reasonable doubt yard shipyard wreckage around the world. The difference is the federal government is creating that publ Public Private partnership, getting through the red tape to get that done. I think thats the way we have to go to be able to preserve the ships and artifacts. To a lot meritime custom was an envisionary, did they enact these laws and current rates to scare people away from entering into agreements with the navy . I dont think so. From my understanding of talking with the underwater archaeologist to do this they basically created the regulation into partnership with people like cussler who dive on wrecks. He doesnt do it anymore, but his organization and they so they worked with them on creating these regulations. Now they can go get a permit and dive for historical information, archaeological information, educational as well so it makes it easier. Its harder for people to get caution without a perm and get fined and thrown in jail for it. But for people like cussler who really did try to do the right thing now they know what the right thing is. Now they know, oh we have to go to the navy and get a perm for this. It makes it a little easier. If i was paying attention closely enough, the first couple attempts to find out what happened to the cumberland was 1870s. Right into the civil war, yeah. All right well, my question is this. I dont think scuba gear was invenued then. How long did they stay down . What apparatus did they use to stay down . You know, i dont know the specifics of what kind of apparatus they used, i know they couldnt stay down more than 30 minutes they had. Thats definitely not my expertise but they did have some sort of a breathing apparatus that im sure we could do research on and find out what it was. It did allow them to dive for about 30 minutes at a time. Thank you very much. Youre welcome. Announcer and well have more from the annual Civil War Institute conference at Gettysburg College in just a moment. Coming up tonight well take a look at the congressional debate of savely that took place in the 1790s and talk about the influence on partisan politics. Thatll be at 8 00 p. M. , eastern this evening. American history t. V. Is in prime every night this month while congress is away for their summer recess. Announcer cspans voices from the road at the National Conference of state legislature in boston, asking attendees whats the most important issue to your state. Whats really important to our state is that washington make sure we maintain healthcare for the poor, the elderly and the infirmed. We have to make sure if we replace obamacare we replace it with something smart and reasonable. An issue that we really are struggling with right now is property tax, and because of the fast in place and Real Estate Property particularly in our rural areas, Rural Farmers are struggling to pay a very high property tax, how do we balance that with whats going on in the property tax and the needs for our schools among the appropriations committee. Its one of the issues were dealing with right now. How do we balance out and make ek bl the property taxi across our state. The most important issue facing our constituents today is unfortunately the opioid crises. Id like to talk about children and how they are the collateral damage. One day theyll need therapy to explain how theyve lost their education, their family members and how theyve lost other loved ones. Basically were talking about a neglect issue. We need more money and a decoration of emergency. Thank you. Seems to me the most important issue facing our state is the partisanship that keeps us from making any progress. I do not believe in putting allegiance to the party over my oath of office for the people. If we can leave the d and the r outside of the building and all show up at louisianans theres nothing we cant tackle and defeat. Thank you. One of our issues is to make sure the medical camp that is built will adhere to its policy of having minorities and women. I feel this is important and will be addressed in 2018 in the later session. Announcer voices from the road on cspan. Announcer next, texas atm University Professor and awe thursday lorien foote talks being Union Soldier who escaped from the prisonps