Transcripts For CSPAN3 State Officials Testify On Water Security And Drought Preparedness 20170802

This hearing of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources subcommittee on water and power will come to order. The purpose of todays hearing is to receive testimony on water supply and drought issues. Well hear infrastructure and supply, planning and innovative management practice that are kritd to obtaining secure water supplies. This includes items crucial to arizona such as the colorado drought planning, better use of existing reservoirs. Reliable water supply and drought protection cannot be achieved without storage, infrastructure, management and planning. Its important that Congress Also consider the barriers that local communities face as they plan and pursue new Water Projects. I look forward to todays hearing to hear how state and local policies encourage judicious water use and how permit streamlining and regulatory predictability can ensure all solutions are on the table. Well also hear about innovations in Water Treatment technology and project financing that can help with Water Infrastructure and supply challenges. We live in an age, as we know, that you expect when you turn on the tap that theres water there, that the water will always be there. Which means that supply certainty is critical for managers. Protecting the sanctity of state water rights help ensure water certainty. As weve seen in arizona, providing this certainty can also unleash private investment and innovative partnerships that improve Water Management. Changes to existing infrastructure can be Cost Effective water strategy as well. Im glad that the committee will hear from several Witnesses Today who can speak to the importance of using the most up to date hydrology and forecasts in operating the existing reservoirs. I think that we can learn from this testimony and build on last years drought legislation to try to address critical water needs for arizona and the nation. Water managers on the ground have great ideas about how to increase water supply and drought resistance. I look forward to working with them on these efforts. In addition to the experts well hear from today, weve received a number of written statements for the hearing record and ill be considering that input as we move forward as well. As senator franken and i were talking just a bit ago, this is an important issue for arizona. I noted that for all of my life whenever it rains no matter where i was living when id see rain, id have the instinct to call my dad because as an old rancher, that was when he was in a good mood. Our favorite time as a family was to hop in the truck after a good rain to see which draws were running, which stock tanks would fill. That was our version of excitement in snowflake, arizona. Anyway, im glad were having this hearing. Im glad to have Ranking Member angus king from maine and turn to him for his opening statement. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to our expert witnesses joining us this morning, especially my c constituent from maine. Welcome to washington this time of year. Like me youd probably rather be in maine on a day in august. Well hear from a range of points of view this morning. Even in maine were not immune to the impacts of a fragile water supply due to drought conditions. We recently had our first drought in 14 years dh s which impacted 70 of our state. Almost half of our States Residents depend on wells for their water. And that drought finally ended this past april but it was a very serious matter for us. I understand my colleagues in the west probably arent very sympathetic to hearing about droughts in new england but they do occur. All regions of the country have these serious issues. Im looking forward to hearing about the different approaches that have been developed in other parts of the country. The critical nature of Water Management across the country has stimulated a variety of approaches to planning and financing. For example, well hear from martha shields from the new England Environmental Finance Center in regard to importance of Green Infrastructure improvements on the water supply. Im also looking forward to hearing how we can promote Public Private partnerships in Water Infrastructure projects and use the lessons in other areas where Infrastructure Improvements are in fact desperately needed. Well also hear about the value of planning and flexibility that we can provide in Water Management, how innovations in water use technology can make Water Management more effective. While we have different water concerns around the country and needs depending on where we are, we can certainly take lessons from these folks who have join us this morning to think differently and use more creative approaches to Water Management. Mr. Chairman, thank you for calling this hearing. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses with their testimony. Well, thank you. Well turn to the Witnesses Today. Thank you for joining us today. I will begin the panel with mr. Tom mashotski. I greatly appreciate the close working relationship we have had over the years and all youve done for the state of arizona on critical water issues. Youve been an important water leader for the state and we always look forward to having you testify here before the senate. Next shirley zane, chairman of the board of the Sonoma County water agency. Then martha shields,project director for the new England Environmental Finance Center. I must say these hearings are typically western focused, so its nice to have a witness here to talk about things going in maine. Then well hear from the president and ceo of thank you all for the testimony youll provide. Wed like to limit your remarks if you can for five minutes to have time for questions and your full remarks will be submitted for the record. With that well recognize you. Thank you. Im director of the Arizona Department of Water Resources. Thank you for providing me an opportunity to testify on behalf of the state of arizona. I have submitted written testimony for the record. My comments today will highlight see issues in that testimony. The Legal Framework, policy prescriptions, institutions and infrastructure needed to secure its resources, create certainty and prepare for drought. The state prioritizes internal actions but collaborates regionally and with the federal government. All while decreasing mined groundwater usage. For the past 20 years drought has been a constant in arizona. When shortage on the Colorado River is declared, about 84 of the total falls to arizona. This knowledge drives robust drought mitigation programs in the state. Now immaterial want to share s innovative actions in arizona. First the paolo verde long before reuse became a common practice. In 1986 and 1984 the landmark groundWater Management act whiz implemented to incentivize underground storage of water and effluent. The water can be used for drought management or for growth. The Arizona Water Banking Authority was created in 1996 to back fill Colorado River shortages. It has stored over 4 million acre feet for arizona but has also stored 600,000 acre feet for nevada. Our underground storage credits can be marketed to others. Tribes lease water to others facilitated by federally authorized tribal water rights settlements. One reason the states policy is to settle rather than litigate tribal rights claims. There are 11 tribes in arizona with pending claims, so much work needs to be done. Turning to arizonas efforts to deal with drought impacts of the Colorado River even with the existing shortage criteria has risen to unacceptable levels. In response, arizona, nevada, california and the bureau of reclamation negotiated a draft drought contingency plan. The dcp further incentivizes the storage of Colorado River water in like mead. Under the dcp arizona and nevada would take additional reductions and for the first time california would take reductions to help protect critical lake mead elevations. Minute 323 would have mexico take actions equivalent to the dcp when both agreements are finalized. Arizona believes that congressional authorization directing the secretary of the interior to execute the dcp will be pursued when the dcp is finalized. That authorization will create certainty for all the parties. Collaboration and an all hands on deck approach is the future of the Colorado River. Within the state we will do more with our existing infrastructure. The bureau of reclamation and the operators completed a system use agreement earlier this year, something that chairman flake has been prodding the department of interior to complete. It allows for wheeling of knowledge project water. The agreement creates a Clear Pathway for the recovery of water stored underground and the transport of that water to entities who will be shorted by Colorado River reductions. It lowers their cost and creates flexibility. Another opportunity is use of a dedicated flood space at roosevelt dam. To date Environmental Compliance considerations and corps of engineers processing issues, streamlining the process similar to amendment inserted into the energy bill last year could help make that a reality. In conclusion, arizonas internal efforts to manage this Water Resources and its efforts on the Colorado River will be most successful in a setting where federal oversight is minimi minimized, regulation is reduced or streamlined. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Chairman flake, Ranking Member king and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is shirlee zane and i serve on the board of supervi r supervisors for Sonoma County california. Very proud to be here today to provide a local perspective on Water Management. Water is life. We have the pleasure and awesome responsibility to deliver safe, affordable Drinking Water 365 days a year 24 hours a day. Drought or flood, we must provide a secure water supply. There are two points that i would like to convey to the subcommittee this morning. First off, the rule uses for reservoir operations are woef woefully outdated. We manage two reservoir projects that provide water supply for the people in sonoma and marin counties. The u. S. Army corps the water control manual was created in 1959. Nearly 60 years later the manual has not been adjusted. In 2013, the corps was required to release 25,000 acre feet of rainfall from the reservoir because it had to adhere to the antiquated rule curve despite weather predictions that no rain was forecasted. The reservoir dropped to 25 of capacity later that season and Sonoma County lost water valued at tens of millions of dollars. If we had updated rule curve, Sonoma County would have been better positioned to adapt to the drought that followed the next four years. We are constantly managing water supply with an underlying goal of becoming more resilient. Not only is resiliency critical for security, but it also makes sense economically. We embarked upon an initiative in 2014 with federal and state partners to improve Weather Forecast modeling in managing reservoir operations. Better known as firo. It is a partnership with the corps, the bureau of reclamation, noaa. That document is attached to my testimony. Our ultimate goal is to put into place a modern rule for lake me mendicino. In california we experience atmospheric rivers. These provide about 50 of the yearly rainfall in california within just a few storms. The frequently and location of atmospheric rivers are are the primary drivers of floods and droughts. However rainfall forecasting beyond 1014 days remains unreliable. Lead time information about weather is crucial for operating water supply infrastructure. These forecasts are critical for improving efficiency of Water Project operations. Were working with the western States Water Council to build a coalition of stake holders committed to working with our partners at noaa to improve forecasting capabilities. The need for a global system to accurately predict our weather patterns is critical. Noaa is leading the way. The bottom line is this, better science leads to better data, and better data would greatly benefit reservoir operations. Were committed to working with this committee and other members of congress who support securing our water future by investing in better technology. We know that modern technology can be used more effectively to manage reservoirs in california and all across the west. Our future generations need us to act now to secure water supply. Thank you again for this opportunity to testify and im pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity to appear today. I am martha sheils. Id like to make three key points. First, that clean water is essential for growing our economy prorand protecting our health. There are examples around our country on how state and local governments are saving money by investing in watershed conservation and Sustainable Management practices. And finally that the federal governments support although helpful should be expanded. Clean water is a critical component of the main brand and essential for attracting businesses, residents and tourists. In maine we now have two computer chip manufacturers with high paying jobs as well as a proliferation of micro breweries, all of which require high quality tap water and plentiful supply. Almost 20,000 jobs in the Tourism Sector depend on the bays health. A great example located in senator kings back yard is the sabago lake watershed. It supplies some of the cleanest Drinking Water in the country to the portland watershed. The portland Water District has a Sustainable Forest Management Program to keep the watershed healthy and resistant to Invasive Species and fire threats. The bad news is that 90 of the watershed is privately owned and Development Pressures are threatening the districts epa waiver. Culvert upgrades, consultation easements and sustain forestry. These Solutions Cost approximately onethird of what it would cost to build a new filtration plant. If we add the other benefits like Wildlife Habitat protection to the avoided costs of not building a filtration plant, the net positive benefits increase tremendously. On a larger scale, new york city invested 1. 4 billion to purchase Conservation Land in the catskill mountains, ultimately saving approximately 5 billion compared to the constructing of a new filtration plant. Protecting natural infrastructure also pays off by mitigating flood damages. Tropical storm irene caused extensive damages in 2011. But downstream flows were far less because large conserved wetland complex absorbed the flood waters. Same with coastal flooding. Maines shoreline is increasingly vulnerable from Sea Level Rise and there are clear economic benefits from preserving and restoring coastal wetlands. In urban areas, built Green Infrastructure that mimics nature, things like green roofs and rain gardens are much more economical than sewer separation projects to manage stormwater. Because Green Infrastructure installments are many and diffused, they very well increase security by relying on a diversity of approaches rather than centralized facilities. The challenge for maine and the rest of the country is to better use existing funds to first of all protect existing natural infrastructure and second to promote built Green Infrastructure that mimics nature and more urban watersheds. Finally, financing programs at the federal and state levels should require or at least encourage Economic Analysis in the evaluation of projects that clearly show the costs, benefits and tradeoffs of projects as in the portland Water District and new york city examples. By doing so, the most Cost Effective projects should be chosen to encourage savings and generate multiple benefits such as Water Quality protection, resistance to Invasive Species, fire reduction, Wildlife Habitat and recreation opportunities, all at the same time. Adopt sound financial evaluation practices that achieve multiple benefits. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Help us Work Together to implement the most Cost Effective strategies that protect our vital resources and also provide multiple benefits at the same time. Thank you for your time. Good morning, chairman flake, Ranking Member king and members of the subcommittee on water and power. Thank you for the opportunity to testify regarding the importance of securing a Sustainable Water future. Ge water is one of the worlds leading advanced Water Treatment Technology Companies with more than 50,000 customers, operations in approximately 130 countries. Our comprehensive set of chemical and Equipment Solutions and our growing portfolio of Predictive Analytics help protect water and help businesses over come scarcity challenges. So far more than 4,000 of our customers have connected our 40,000 assets to our digital platform which helps optimize water efficiency through realtime responsiveness to changing operating conditions. Our installed base of technologies enabled customers to treat over 3 billion gallons of water per day. Within the water industry, we expect to invest about 500 million in research and development over the next ten years. I would also like to mention that in march ge announced it has signed an agreement to sell the water business to suez with on ratio we expect to close by the end of the third quarter. Our strategy will remain and strengthen as we transition. According to market research, the global population will grow by another 3 billion people by 250. Only 4 of waste water is currently reused. In israel nearly 80 of waist water is reused. In singapore 40 of water demand is met with what is called new water. In areas like california nearly 16 of the 1. 6 trillion gallons of mu nnicipal waste water per year is reused with an increasing trend. The response was reassuring with 49 willing to drink reused water up from 30 just a few years ago. Even though we work with communities around the world to help them reuse their waste water we also focus on water reuse for industrial processes where water does not have to be treated to potable standards to be reused. Address the economics of reuse and Energy Efficiency and the adoption of digital solutions. Deploying these technologies across the water ecosystem will help secure our water future. I believe that others will continue to find ways to bring innovation to market. In addition to developing and implementing water reuse technology, we have released a series of reports highlighting more rapid add apaptation. Providing financial regulatory or other incentives were water recycling and reuse and mandating more water recycling and reuse. By harnessing the energy and waste water for energy thank you for holding this important hearing and for the opportunity to present this testimony. I look forward to your questions and working with you to address these challenges. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for inviting me here today. My name is carlos reeva and im president and chief executive of poseiden water. My written testimony describes t key characteristics of the Business Model and is gaining Acceptance Around the world as a way to speed up infrastructure delivery without adding to public debt. My own company has been developing Water Infrastructure projects in north america using p 3 approach for more than 20 years. Our signature project is a 50 million gallon per day sea water Desalination Plant which is the largest and most technically advanced in the western hemisphere. Its now serving San Diego County, california. After a lengthy permitting and Development Period it was constructed on time and on budget and now supplies about 10 of the countys water needs. First, we must anticipate and plan for future water supply challenges that are brought on by factors such as population growth, economic growth, the aging of existing Water Systems and changing climatic factors. It takes years to implement projects to meet large scale Regional Water needs. Second, now more than ever is the time for closer cooperation between the public and private sectors to meet this challenge. Across the u. S. , many of our wa Water Systems have gone three or four decades without investment. Given todays harsh political realities, Public Water Agency Capital Budget simply cannot cover this gap. Fortunately many private investors are willing to invest for the steady longterm returns offered by infrastructure projects. Third, to skeptics who fear a loss of public control over crucial public facilities, let me emphasize a key point. A well designed p 3 project is very different from out right privatization. It is in reality an alternative method of project delivery over a defined concession period with specified performance obligations. Id be happy to illustrate the difference by focusing on the example of our partnership with San Diego County water authority. Ultimately theyll assume ownership of the plant at the end of the contract period. Fourth and finally, there are simple but significant steps that congress can take to remove barriers to this Business Model. My testimony describes a few proposed reforms such as caps on the use of private activity bonds which could be lifted. Also the bureau of reclamations Financing Authority could be broadened through a program. And restrictive budget scoring rules related to p 3 repayment streams should be reexamined. Let me close by noting that in the United States weve long since come to accept and embrace private financing for many other types of infrastructure serving public needs. I feel the time is ripe to right this approach to renewing our Water Systems specifically through the model of Public Private partnership. Where this model fits, it offers a winwin for everyone at a time when our country needs some nonpartisan wins. Water agency can meet their Service Obligations and conserve their borrowing capacity. The consumers get the benefit of much needed infrastructure on a faster scale and more predictable terms. Everybody works together for the good of the citizens and the overall economy. Thank you and i look forward to any questions you may have. Thank you all for your testimony. We appreciate it. Tom, you point out in your testimony th testimony that cuts last year the department of interior provided an assurance that arizonas conservative e conser not be delivered to farmers across the river in california. Its my understanding that dcp has a permanent fix to this socalled system water. Are we operating once again without d. O. I. Assurances . We do not have those assurances in writing. We would like to siee that happn this calendar year. The assurances last year ran out at the end of 2016. Its imperative that the cob ser conserved water stay in the lake. Efforts avoided the shortage in 2014, 20152016 and 2017. The certainty that a commitment in writing from the department of interior would give us would allow us to continue to go ahead with confidence that the money were spending to conserve that water in the lake is going to be well served. The perception is that the drou drought ended in the west with all the rains. What has the wetter wint theer we had, does it change the equation at all for colorado, the lower basin . It has reduced the probabilities that lake mead will go to shortage levels in the future. In between march and june we lost about 2 million acre feet out of the run off projection. Without the Water Conservation that weve done in lake mead right now we might even be in shortage in 2018 despite the good winter we had this year. I was glad to see your testimony cover the use of reclaimed water. We hear about recycled water. When its talked about it comes with a request for the federal government to come in and build a Treatment Plant for the recycling projects. Can you explain how Arizona State water law treats effluent and how it has created situations where private entities have incentives to invest . Chairman flake, the generation station effluent contract spurred a lawsuit in arizona. And the Supreme Court in 1989 did rule that treated waste water is the property of the entity that treats it. That really did incentivize folks for doing reuse, building the plants, building the infrastructure. I think the certainty that that Legal Framework created in arizona certainly has led to arizona using quite a bit of its water for reuse in the phoenix metropolitan area almost 100 , same in the tucson area. Weve long been leaders in reuse. That was one of the key factors that allowed us to achieve that goal. Thank you. You mentioned you used Predictive Analytics to better utilize these systems and private investment that you have. Explain that. I think Predictive Analytics are being used just about everywhere. Yeah. What were really talking about is in different areas. Just looking at the plant operation itself is really about improving productivity, efficiency, predicting downtimes and taking preemptive measures against it and basically protect and prolong the asset life of the plant operation. If you look outside of the plant itself, we have large infrastructure, piping infrastructure, pumping infrastructure. And there is a whole slew of different tools to protect pipeline health, to detect leakages, to address nonrevenue water basically, preventing leakages through preemptive maintenance activities. Together with analytical tools and analysis up front, this clearly helps to drive improvements and operate. Ms. Zane, i was struck by your testimony and the desire for more certainty and science in terms of predictability which is a crucial element. What bothers me is that the budget that was recently committed by the Administration Cuts the noaa budget by 16 , cuts research in noaa by 32 and even cuts the National Weather service by 6 . You said we need better data to better manage. I would say we also need better data to make better policy. And i find that very concerning for all of the work that were doing here. If we dont have the data, its simply going to aggravate this problem. Would you agree . Oh 100 . Weve got to invest in technology. Just to remember what it costs us when we dont invest in technology, we went down to 25 of our reservoir because the corps of engineers were following a rule based upon the upcoming precipitation on the other hand weve been able to keep more water this last season where we had our Russian River flooded three times. Basically in one year Sonoma County was decliared an emergeny both in terms of drought and of flood. I think its all about investing in the innovation. Its about better forecasting of the skies so we can better manage water on the ground. Weather is an integral part. Even with the science weve now been working on, if we install the proper radars along the coast there in northern california, were going to have basically a forecast that gives us three to four days in advance to both prepare for floods and to keep that water in the reservoirs. The atmospheric rivers dumped over 50 of the precipitation in california. So thats the thing weve got to track. Were seeing again extreme weather differences. And i couldnt agree more that noaa has been an integral partner of ours in terms of looking at the forecasting, increasing the technology. Really its about efficiency and cost savings. I want to get to that. Okay. Is there some calculable maximum of gallons needed per year per person in a given area or in the country or in the southwest. How do we calculate what we need . Can we just continue to absorb growing population in phoenix and los angeles kwoem. So certainly, senator king, there is a calulation for gallons per day per person. I think it varies in different parts of the country. Sner certainly in arizona where it doesnt rain much, the outdoor use that attaches to a home for example, you need water to meet that demand so it would be a very Different Number than perhaps on the east coast. Perhaps on the east coast its 50 or 60 gallons a day. In arizona 750 is a more reasonable number. Is there a sort of global calculation of whats the potential for either conservation or reuse . Is it a third, a half . Can we invent our way out of this problem . We havent gotten to desalination yet, but lets talk about the potential for simply low flow toilets, just more conservation medicinasures. At least in arizona we have been doing conservation since 1980. We have projected out our future supplies and demands and we know that conservation alone will not achieve the goal of keeping up with growth in population and economy. We do know, however, that reuse might fill as much as 50 of our future growth projections. Those are two areas that weve absolutely gotten to concentrate on. I think you gave in calculation but its an important one. That is can you dollar value the natural protections, buffers and the like, versus filtration. I think you gave a figure on that. Yes. In the case of the sabago lake watershed, in order to preserve the needed natural infrastructure, the forests around the lake, it costs a third it costs a third less than to build a new filtration plant that would do the same work that the forest floor does now. To follow up, are there differences in abilities to finance those two solutions . In other words, can you get federal grants for a filtration plant but not acquiring buffers . You can get some grants for filtration plants through state resolving funds and some federal programs. But for acquiring land, its much different. Some state resolving funds do finance purchase of land by Drinking Water utilities, but they dont allow the coordination of purchase with land trusts who might be interested in that same piece of land. I would be interested if you could supply us for the record a sort of comparison between buying a filtration plant and protecting naturally and what policy, tax policy, grant policy, how it works. Im interested in whether we are providing sufficient incentives to do it naturally as opposed to mechanically. For one thing, doing it naturally is is always les expensive. I understand that. My question is are there perverse incentives or penalties, tax benefits. You dont have to answer me now but for the record, if you could supply that. Id like to see a comparison how tax policy, grant policy, regulatory policy affects the two forks of the solution. I can provide you that. But let me just say that its really difficult to know all the benefits. And to put that in the avoided cost number. We know the avoided costs of building a filtration planted is the cost of that filtration plant that you dont have to build because i know. But to value the nonmarket values of recreation and Carbon Sequestration and nonmarket values. Theres not an easy way to do that. If we dont count those costs, were underestimating the benefits. I will get you that analysis. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I turn to the man who has more lakes than constituents in his state. Senator franken. We actually have more i have more constituents. Its called the land of 10,000 lakes. We have 14,000 lakes and i have about 5. 5 million constituents. Thats why im a politician. Math is not my game. Yes. Lets talk science, i believe involves math sometimes. Scientists project by the end of the century the western United States will face higher temperatures coupled with more intense drought. In the midwest, we will face weather events and resulting flooding. Result we nate to pay for these changes by adapting our levees. You have been working to manage Water Infrastructure during both drought and flooding in the past few years. What can the federal government do to help communities prepare Water Infrastructure for a changing climate . We have to invest you have to invest in technology. Its that pure and simple. Without the technology youre not going to have more accurate forecasting. We are basically using a midwestern, no offense to the midwest, you have more thunderstorms there. Were using that technology to give us our forecasts on the west coast. The problem is you have radar at a certain elevation and atmospheric rivers come well beneath that elevation and its not being detected. If we invested in Technology Today we would be able to know four day, five days in advance when those atmospheric rivers hit. We literally lived in a state of emergency throughout the wintertime because the Russian River crested over three times and we had to evacuate literally thousands of people and animals. We got a 6 million fema grant to repair our roads and were putting another 4 million into the general fund. That to me is wasted dollars. If we could better prepare for these floods and keep that water in the reservoir and a 6 million industry in Sonoma County. If we had that Technology Today, i believe we could do such a better job and not waste one dollar or one drop of federal funding when it comes to those emergency disasters. I couldnt be more disappointed technology and research was cut in this recent budget. I think it was the wrong way to go. I agree with senator king, its got to be technology and data that is the foundation for all good policies. Im concerned about a lot of the cuts that are being made, noaa, of course, and all kinds of this academy has the whole Energy Committee were talking about, les investment on Energy Efficiency, energy, Renewable Energy, nat sort of thing. That sort of thing. In your testimony, you highlight the importance of Green Infrastructure and rebuilding Natural Systems like wetlands as a Cost Effective way to protect water by avoiding more traditional forms of infrastructure projects. I just had the commanding general of the army corps of engineer in because they dredge mississippi a lot to keep the channels open for situation. Thats important. We have a situation where the dredge material, we dont know, theyre at a point they will have to dump it on somebodys farm, you know. One thing he talked about was creating wetlands and hoping he can find that solution. Can you talk about these types of Green Infrastructure projects and how they can be beneficial, especially in light of a changing climate . Yes. Definitely. More extreme weather events up and down the east coast, its affecting communities tremendously, protecting the wetlands already in place is the most Cost Effective way to manage the flood waters on the coast. Restoring wetlands is another way to do that. The last thing is creating wetlands, like you were talking about. That can be Cost Effective opposed to the flood damage if you dont have that Number System to absorb the waters. I talked about vermont and how hurricane irene hit vermont so hard and rutland got all these damages because its basically impervious surfaces. Down stream from that where there was this conserved wetland, flows were much les and damages were much les as well. We have to weigh the costs an benefits we get from preserving these natural areas that will always be cheaper than deal with the consequences. Theres significant conservation benefits or mediating fish and Wildlife Habitat and reestablishing local species . Not only environmental benefits but social and economic benefits at the same time. Youre nodding a lot, miss zane. Why . Weve been spending the last nine years with the core of engineers and our private landowners basically implementing a biological opinion. We have yet to be sued. We worked really well with our landowners and we are seeing great restoration in terms of some of our endangered species. Fish in particular. I grew up with a fishing pole in my hand and fished all over the west with my father. So, you know, we will often say at the Sonoma County agency if our fish are healthy, our water supply and quality is healthy. We use that as a measuring stick and i invite you to come look at some Construction Projects in terms of restoring fish habitat along the tributary of the Russian River which is dry creek. Theyre quite incredible. Some of the best wines you will ever drink. The people that own that property are making those wines and working handinhand with us as well as the core to implement that biological opinion. Thank you. Im over my time but sonoma is unbelievably beautiful, as is maine, arizona. Is gorgeous. Where are the rest of you from . I forgot. [ laughter ] im sure beautiful. We have beautiful country we should be very proud of. Thank you for working on our Water Infrastructure. Thank you, senator franken. You talk about desalle nation. Ive taken a couple of survival trips where the only water i could drink was what i used a manual desalinator and takes a lot of pressure with a manual one. Im sure its a big cost. Tell me, with california producing a lot of intermittent power, basically with solar, does that provide benefits and opportunities for desalination, where you can pick the times you actually use the hardware . Tell me about power and intermittent use and how thats aiding and helping your industry. Thank you. Power is a major component of the cost structure of desalinated water. For every gallon of water we produce, half represents capital, a quarter operating costs nonpower and another quarter represents the cost of power. Over the course of the last decade, the amount of that percentage power and overall costs has been declining as there have been a lot of Technology Innovations starting with the improvement in filters, improvement in Different Energy Recovery Systems and the like. In terms of where we get that power from, in the first instance let me back out and say this, as poseidon, we feel very strongly we need to find ways to maximize the uses of Renewable Energy in order to address the power supply. There are limits we can do on site because theres not enough room to put a massive solar or window array. We will do some and do rooftop solar where we can. What we would like to do is be able to access some Renewable Energy being produced remotely, sane the desert areas in california, and find ways to bring it to the site. Thats currently not possible under California Law but something a number of people are working on, direct access. Finally, the issue you raised, the ability to take low cost power or when theres excess of power and alter your operating mode in order to accommodate that, thats another potential area were looking at. In our carlsbad unit, theres les potential to do that than another, say, a new build, a project were building in Huntington Beach where theres much larger water storage. Thats really the issue. If you have more capacity to store you can produce more off peek and cut back on on peek. This is active for us working with the california electricity commissions. There is really a powerwater nexus important to understand. In between the hours of 11 00 and 2 00 p. M. Everyday, california is pushing no cost power on the eastern grid to arizona and talked about how that could be used in terms of pumping. The biggest single water user in arizona is the Central Arizona project pump water, in fact can be done in times intermittent power is cheaper and helps out. We talked a lot about the Colorado River, making sure with regard to storage, water banking and wheeling, one thing we really havent talked about is surface water in arizona and how that is utilized. Talk about for a minute the importance of arizonas own watershed, our northern forest for example and how we can better utilize and take full advantage of every drop of rain that falls in arizona, not necessarily in the upper basin and flowing through the Colorado River. How important is that to arizonas water future and what do we need to do . Senator flake, our in state supplies are critical. Out of our 7 million acre water budget, 17 comes from the salt and hill of rivers. On the salt river itself, roosevelt dam is the Main Reservoir there. It has Flood Control capacity dedicated to it. If we could use that Flood Control capacity to store water in the summertime, its very unlikely we will get major runoff events and we can increase the yield out of the salt river by as i mentioned earlier by 70,000 acre feet on average. Its highly variable but we need to maximize every drop of water we have from our in state sources. A healthy forest with fewer trees, les choked, thats a better system to have certainly than what we experienced now in the ponder roosa pine forest. Is that true and should should we manage our forest. In terms of water, is there an imperative to better manage our forest . Senator flake, absolutely. We estimate in presetlement days there were les than 50 trees per acre and grown to 1,000 trees per acre. Using a lot more water. Like straws in the ground, isnt it . Right. Raising fire danger, from 85,000 in the 80s to over runoff and causing issues there. The health of the forest is key. We have a Forest Restoration project under way and we need to find ways to incentivize private industry to come in so that they can take advantage of those Wood Products, so the restoration thats been under way so far has kind have been hampered by the fact we cant create these industries to come in and use the Wood Products and the costs of just doing the thinning without being able to market the Wood Products is prohibitive. We need private industry in there. Great. We talk a lot on this full committee on issues and Forest Restoration. I want to bring it back to the importance for water as well. Thats not talked about as much. Senator. First, i want to ask each of you, everybody always leaves a situation like this and says, i wish i had said this or wish i had made this recommendation. Be thinking about what we can do in federal policy to help in areas youre working on, whether tax policy incentives, regulation, what are the things, because thats our business here, is making laws. To the extent you can provide some backup thoughts, white paper explanation, that would be very helpful. On desalination, obviously, huge potential, gigantic ocean. Whats this cost of a gallon of desalinization versus traditional water sources . I think its fair to say that its more expensive than existing water supply because its a new water supply. My question is how much more expensive . Twice as much, three times as much, four or five . Depends on the system but could be on the order of twice as much. I think the reason for that is that the existing supplies have basically committed all of the existing inexpensive water. Right. Then youre left its hard to beat free. Its hard to beat free, comes out of the sky. Well, thats right. Or its in a pond that requires minimal treatment or groundwater. If thats available to you freely, i think any community will go to that. Its when you go beyond that, supplies diminishing or restrictions on them because theres growth population and the like, conservation is obviously a critical part of that. I think for a Healthy System resilient to the types of climate and the like senator franken was talking about, you need a diversified supply system. To me, resilience equals diversification and desal is an important piece of that and the silver bullet. And its likely as fresh water remains constant. That raises a question, not quite sure who to address this to, maybe you, mr. Buschatzke, is the issue of costs. I have a friend who is a car dealer and says you can graph to precision when gas prices go down, he sells more trucks. When gas prices go up, he sells more priuss. Its very clear. Priass. Correction. We havent talked about costs and to the extent theres technology invested and use, dont those things go back to what the cost of the commodity is and people will preserve more and more creativity with results. My friend from ge, youre nodding. Is that an accurate perception . I would definitely agree senator king. If gas were 20 cents a gallon we would be driving humvees. You see that in the middle east. Where the price of water reflects more the real value of water, thats where you have more conservation activities and thats where you have more new technology being applied to be able to reuse water and apply a different broader mix of water sources to address future needs. Youre absolutely right there. As supplies as demand increases and supplies eats stay constant or dwindle, thats going to be a logical outcome it seems to me in terms of the market and see more in terms of conservation. Im not advocating higher prices for water but it seems like an inevitability as we go to filters or desalinization and cities with drinkable water or water used for other purposes. Yes. I want to get back to investing in technology, too. Thats what we need to do if were going to save water . I was going to ask you, if you have more storms if you buffer the effect of the flood and store the water when its dry . I dont think so. The storage has to be in the ground at this point. California is the last state in the western states to have any type of regulation in terms of groundwater and were just beginning to kick that off now. I think the answer is we need to find better innovative ways of storing our water in the ground. At the same time, maximizing the reservoirs. You asked what we would like to share with you. We would like to work with you to include projects like ours that do involve the corps and emphasize those projects need to be implemented or initiated by the local water sponsors only. Did a Little Research and found out the corps operates on projects in all of your in states. Wed like to be able to be included. Some of the legislation senator flake and feinstein have authored, which we really appreciate that legislation. Its again i just want to stress technology and better science. I think we would have saved this country billions of dollars in emergency mitigation funds if we could figure out the technology and the forecasting. Thank you all for your testimony. We have just a couple minutes left in the vote that senator king and i have to run to. We certainly had scheduling issues to get this hearing to come off. Were pleased were able to do so today. I want to thank the witnesses for the testimony. We really touched on some helpful issues here. Last congress, we were able to put together a drought bill that addressed many of the needs we have. Between that bill and the testimony weve heard today, well have the material to put together another water supply and drought bill that deals with a lot of the issues that we touched on today. For the information of members, questions will be submitted for the record, must be submitted for the record before the close of business on thursday. The record will remain open for two weeks. Wed ask the witnesses to respond promptly if possible and your responses will be made part of the record. This hearing stands adjourned. On cspan American History tv is in primetime all week with our original series, landmark cases. This evening we look at scott versus sanders. The Supreme Court declared in a 72 decision all blacks could not ever become citizens of the United States. Tonight at 8 00 eastern. Cspan spoke with transportation secretary, elaine chao, she talked about goals with her departments and prior work as peace corps director and labor secretary, a brief portion of what you will see on friday. As you know, you made a little bit of news in a podcast with politico. I prepare so much more than some of my male colleagues. I didnt prepare too much today. Its been a very busy day. I want to do well. Your listeners are very kind to tune in and i want to do a good job for your listeners and want them to feel it was worth their time to tune in and listen. I feel that way about everything i do. People are giving me their time and attention. I have a responsibility to do a good job to justify their trust in me. Every job ive had, ive always been so grateful to people who have trusted me even though they may not have known me, theyve given me a job, i want to do my best for them. How do you prepare your own learning curve whether head of the united way, labor or peace corps, now transportation . I view preparation again a matter of being thoughtful and considerate. And i dont like it when people come and theyre unprepared, because the time that you spend with the principal, its so precious. If you come and see the secretary, you wanted her full attention. You want her to know what youre talking about what than you having to explain. This is x, this is a, this is b, this is c. Hopefully if the principal is well prepared, the discussion can be richer, can be more meaningful, more productive, and it will be a good use of the visitors time as well. Thats what i always think. I remember when i was on the outside, and i would be so disappointed if the person i was seeing didnt even know who i was, what my background was. So as an example, when i go any place, theres so many people who want to see me and theyve been waiting there maybe 15 minutes, maybe half an hour, maybe 45 minutes. I always make a point to know who they are, what their names are, at least what their titles are, what theyre doing there. I think they deserve that. Thats a respect i can show them when i visit them. I try to be prepared, out of respect for the person im meeting with. You can watch the entire Program Friday night at 8 00 eastern on cspan. Sunday night on q a. I had never heard of him. I wanted to know how this man told from the time he was a young child he was not worth anything could have had the courage and determination to find a way out of slavery. I was intrigued and couldnt stop reading about him. Journalist and author, kate line ber ary, looks at the lifef a man who went on to be a member of congress in the book be free or die. He served five terms in the house of representatives. There was bribery charge against him in his career and never recovered fully from that and why i think hes not better known today. Tonight on q a. Earlier today, cspan hosted a hearing on insurance efforts in an effort to replace the affordable appeal act. Joining us at the table to discuss healthcare repeal, whatever might be happening on capitol hill. I have Senior Research fellow and project director at the Georgetown University center on Health Insurance forms. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. A retirement policy scholar at the American Enterprise institute. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. We start with news that the chairman of the health committee, senator Lamar Alexander announced he wou