Transcripts For LINKTV Democracy Now 20170405

Medical supplies and help rebuild hospitals. Then noam chomsky on the crisis in the middle east and how the us rejected a peace proposal in syria five years ago. Bethe wesest would not excepted, not just United States, france, england, the United States, refused to even consider it. At the time, they believed they could overthrow assad. The war went on. Could it have worked . We would never know for sure, but it could have been pursued. Amy we will speak with a worldrenowned linguist and political dissident noam chomsky about syria, israel, venezuela, the possible rise of fascism in the u. S. , and his new book requiem for the American Dream the 10 principleles of concentration of wealth power. All that and more, coming up. Welcome to democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. In syria, the death toll has risen from a suspected chemical weapons attack in the Northern Province of idlib. At least 72 people have died, including 20 children. Hundreds more were wounded. Its been described as the largest chemical attack in syria since 2013. The United States, france, and britain have accused the assad Syrian Government of carrying out the attack and have proposed a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning it. Russia is claiming the gases were released after an airstrike hit a depot where rebels were making chemical weapons. On tuesday, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said the chemical attack will not change u. S. New policy that the u. S. Priority is not getting assad out of power. Todays chemical attack against innocent people, including women and children, is reprehensible and cannot be ignored by the civilized world. There is not a fundamental option of regime change as there has been in the past. I think we would look, to some degree, rather silly now technology the political realities that exist in syria and what we need to do is fundamentally do what we can to empower the people of syria, to find a different way. Amy the u. S. Continues to carry out airstrikes in syria as part of its fight against isis. The joururnalistic Monitoring Group p airwars ys thehe are reports the u. U. S. Led coalilitn carrieied out at least four separate airstrikes tuesday around the syrian city of raqqa, which is controlled by isis. Citing local news sources,s, airwrwars says these airstrikeks may have killed as many as 111 civilianans. We will have more on syria after the headlines. The United Nations says more than 300,000 iraqi civilians have fled mosul amid the ongoing u. S. And iraqi militaries offensive to retake the city from isis. The journalistic Monitoring Group airwars reports u. S. Led Coalition Airstrikes in recent days have reportedly killed and injured more civilians in recent days. One u. S. Led Coalition Strike on the yarmouk neighborhood of west mosul reportedly killed three members of the same family another strike, believed to be sunday. Carried out by the u. S. Backed iraqi military, reportedly hit a funeral procession in the farouk neighborhood, also on sunday. Airwars says u. S. Led Coalition Airstrikes reportedly killed hundreds of civilians in mosul last month. Airstrikes on 17 that killed up march to 200 civilians. Nortrth korea launched a ballisc missile test today. Its the latest in a series of missile and rocket engine tests north korea has launched in recent weeks. The test comes as the u. S. And south korea are wrapping up weeks of military Training Drills on the korean peninsula. The drills include more than in response to the missile launch, secretary of state Rex Tillerson said the United States has spoken ough about north koreaea. We have no further comment. On thursday, President Trump and chinese president xi jinping are meeting at trumps private maralago golf resort in florida. 22 advertisers have pulled ads from the fox news show the ooreilly factor in responseo revelations that at least a half dozen women have accused oreilly of sexual harassment. Among the companies to pull ad spots are mercedesbenz, hyundai, bmw of north america, mitsubishi motors, lexus, bayer, allstate, and coldwell banker. The New York Times goes with revealed fox and bill oreilly have paid 13 million to f five women who accused him of sexual investment and more women continue to come forward. President Obamas National Security adviser susan rice is rejecting allegations that she leaked the names of Trump Associates whose communications were swept up by u. S. Intelligence agencies foreign surveillance. Earlier this week, it emerged that rice was the official who unmasked the names of Michael Flynn and other Trump Associates, whose names repeatedly came up in the u. S. Surveillance records targeting the communications of russian officials. While the names of americans who are swept up by u. S. Foreign surveillance are to be kept concealed from the public, top u. S. Officials, such as susan rice, have the power to unmask their names internally so they can understand the con of the context of the conversations. This is susan rice, speaking with Msnbcs Andrea Mitchell tuesday. Did you seek the names of people involved did you unmask the names of people involved in the trump transition, people surrounding the president elect . In order to spy on them . Absolutely not, for any political purposes, just by, expose, anything. Did julie the name of mike flynn . I leak nothing to nobody. Amy President Trump is facing criticism for signing an executive order revoking the 2014 fair pay and safe workplaces, aimed at protecting equal pay for women. Equal pay day was tuesday. According to 2016 data from the pew research center, for every dollar a white man in the u. S. Earns, women earn . 82, black women earn . 65, and Hispanic Women earn . 58. Trumps daughter, ivanka, is also facing blowback for having for tweeting equalpayday is a reminder that Women Deserve equal pay for equal work. We must work to close the gender pay gap she did not acknowledge her father rolled back equal pay perfections just days before. Meanwhile, i since parliament has introduced legislation requiring both public and private businesses to prove theyre paying men and women workers equally. If it passes, it will be the first such law in the world. The ncaa has lifted its boycott on holding championship events in North Carolina following the rerepeal of the states antilgt law hb2. Trans activists had demanded the ncaa keep the boycott in place, saying North Carolinas replacement law, hb142, is also discriminatory against the lgbt community. This is North Carolina trans activist joaquin carcano, speaking on democracy now hb 142 is a repackaged hb2 under different name. We still dont have any safety. We dont have any protections and we are still actively restricted from navigating our daily lives. We continue to ask for a boycott to the state for the ncaa to not return to North Carolina and for the state and the nation to continue to see that north carolilina is actively discriminating disseminated against our community. Chicago, workplaces from nation on the basis of Sexual Orientation violates the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Investigation by the guardian has revealed undercover officers of the n new York Police Department work to infiltrate a group of black lives matter protesters. The investigation draws on emails obtained through a freedom of information request, which shows how undercover officers posed as protesters and gained access to small message groups used by the protesters to. This is kim ortiz with the Group New York city shut it down, which has been holding a weekly protest every monday night for the last two years, highlighting a different person killed by the police. Their undercover is in our marches. We had a foia request and we know they have been trying to infiltrate our spaces. All were trying to do is call for accountabilility. Amy meanwhile, the new York Police Department is facing accusations it arrested a local activist in retaliation for his work of filming Police Brutality as part of a cop watch program. The activist, jose lasalle, says he was arrested twice within 24 hours after filming police stop and frisks. At a press conference on monday, he released audio from inside the precinct where you can hear the officers cheerining and taunting him. [indiscernible] [cheers] [indidiscernible] amy activists with black lives matter and other antipolice brutalitity groups arere criticg and ridiculing a pepsi ad that coopts and misrepresents the Resistance Movement in order to sell soda. In the ad, whihite, 21yyearod reality tv star Kendall Jenner is presented as a hero after she offers a can of pepsi to a Police Officer in ththe middle f a peace march. The Police Officer, who is not clad in heavy riot g gear as mot officers are during protests, accepts the can of soda, appearing to suggest that pepsi could smooth tensions between Police Forces and demonstrators who have spent years protesting Police Killings of unarmed people, disproportionately people of color. In phoenix, arizona, sheriff papaul penzone hasas announc h e will be e closing the fms tent city, and outdoor city jail which longtime former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio was referred to as his own concentration camp. He was voted out of office in november after a massive Grassroots Efforts by immigrant rights activists. In response to the announcement of the closing of the tent city, Carlos Garcia said we applaud sheriff penzone making the decision to close arpaios tent city. The next step in removing arpaios stain from the Maricopa Countyty sheriffs officece is o remove federal deportation agents from its main jail. And in maryland, governor larry hogan has signed a law permanently banning fracking in ththe state. The ban comes after years of grassroots organizing against fracking in mamaryland. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. We turn first t to syria, wheret least 72 people have died, including 20 children, in a suspected chemical attack in the Northern Province of idlib. Its been described as the largest chemical attack in syria since 2013. The United States, france and , britain have accused the Assad Government of carrying out the attack and have proposed a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning it. Meanwhile, russia is claiming the gases were released after an airstrike hit a depot where rebels were making chemical weapons. Survivors of the attack describe being unable to breathe. We were sleeping an hour house. Was between 6 00 and 7 00 a. M. I went out to help people and there was a smell coming out. How did you know it was a chemical attack . Because i had trouble brbreathing and i fell to the ground immediately. There was a rocket. A rocket explosion that had a lot of smoke coming out of it. There was a lot of smoke and there was a smell. It was very difficult to breathe. We could not breathe anymore. We could not breathe anymore. Amy the World Health Organization is reporting some of the victims had symptoms consistent with exposure to nerve agents. The chemical attack comes just days after u. S. Secretary of state Rex Tillerson suggested washington would not push for assads removal. I think the status in the longerterm status of president assad will be decided by the Syrian People. Amy on tuesday, White House Press secretary said tuesdsdays chemical attack was a consequence of what he described as the weakness of former president obama. These heinous actions by the are aalassad regime consequence of the past administrations weakness and irresolution. President obama said in 2012 that he would establish red line against the use of chemical weapons, and then did nothing. Amy for more, we are joined now by rola hallam dr. , a britishsyrian doctor speaking at the women in the world summit today. Shes the founder and ceo of the nonprofit cando. Late last year, she led the peoples convoy, rebuilding a childrens hospital. She led a team of british doctors to the syriaturkey border with a convoy filled with medical supplies. Dr. Rola hallam, welcome to democracy now thank you for inviting me. Amy what do understand took place in idlib . It would seem about 6 30 in the morning, there was an airstrike in a town that resulted in hundreds of civilians, mostly children, i believe, about 50 of them, to exhibit signs of exposure to a nerve agent. So they were found to be either comatose, not breathing, foaming at the mouth, having spasms, vomiting. Many were rushed to a nearby hospital, as well as an msf based clinic that were also been hit by near strike. I believe the death toll now is about00 civililians, with 380 injured. Amy and who do you believe did it . As far as im concerned, there is it is committed by an airstrike communally ththe assad regime or the Russian Air Forces have that capability. Amy lets go to the International Rescue committee responding to the chemical attack in syria, calling it a breach of International Humanitarian law. This is spokesperson oliver money. What we want to remind people of, the people paying the price of the civilians, the civilians are learning about who have been attacked in idlib this week. But it is not just in idlib. These attacks are taking place across the entire country. Of to half a Million People have died in this conflict. We have seen, i think it is half the country displaced, so 11 Million People. 5 million of those are refugees that up by the neighboring countries and also some of which to europe as well. This is a conflict the 21st century has not seen before. Something of this scale. We are not addressing either the root causes, and we need to do so much better helping civilians who are getting targeted like this. Amy your response, rola, defraying what he has to say . Talkm sorry nine amy more about what is taking place, what you found is there, and what you believe the United States should be doing and the world. I mean, amy, syria has become a circus of debt. There are so many incredible ways in which civilians are now being slaughtered. Ana doctor, as anesthesioiologist, the targeg ofof heah carere and of doctcton thesee last few years over 30 facilities have been attacked. Nearly 800 and my colleagues, doctors, nurses, and aid workers have been killed for delivering aid. And d now you have this chemical weapons attack. I was in syria when the last large attack happened in 2013. Those images yesterday, i have to say, paralyzed me for most of the day as they brought back horrific memories s of what i witnessed myself, not in damascus with the chemical weapons, but similar aerial bombardment with women and children who also arrived unable to breathe because of their choking. That is not even considering the over one million who are being starved to death. , there is arircus need to uphold humanitarian l lw and the geneva conventions, as well as stopping thehese indiscriminate murderers attacks on civilians. Amy it is reported a few hours after the alleged gas attack, a rocket hit a nearby hospital where the victims were being treated. The syrian observatory for human rights says it does not know whether the attack was carried out by the Syrian Government or its ally russia. Meanwhile, russia is saying that it would have been an error attack that hit a site where rebels were making local gas. You know, what i find incredibly frustrating about these discussions is, to point a finger at whodununit, we forget the civilians and we forget the incredible her relicic work of e civilian humanitarians. We have to get up and dust ourselves off day in and day out as civiliansack, get attacked. We are not discusseded. Thee suffering does not get discussed. There are hundreds of people who have lost her children, lost their wives, lost their husbands. There even fewer m medical facilities when wewe already knw 11 Million People are endeavored need of health care. What does that look lilike gecko we dont talk about that. That means women are delivering on their Kitchen Floor with no health care workers. That means we are not there with basic infections. There are no more antibiotics in syria. People are having to have surgery without anesthesia or not having surgery at all. I find it frustrating we dont talk about these incredible examples of suffering, which are really, really important to discuss. Amy you were in syria during the 2013 chemical attack . Yes, i was in aleppo a and idlib areas. Amy what did you learn at that time . So i was there during that period. Obviously, the images we saw were just as shocking as the ones you have been saying. Amy let me go to a clip from the 2013 bbc documentary saving syrias children. The filmmakers traveled with dr. Rola hallam inside syria to reveal how children are impacted by the war. Dr. R. Hallalam. Absbsolute chaos s and carnage. Wewe h he had a massive influx f. H looooks like serious b burns it seems l like it mustt be soso sort of chemicaleapon. Im not alally sur we dont know whahat we are dealaling with. Casualts, anyone o is touched the victims could bee doused in wawater. Casualtieies keep comining i. Insnse. Annot barely cope there are a few dsds, which is whatat people are e laid out one floor. Onone thing the e camera will lt tell youou is t t smell in the air. Is a sickening s smell of burnrning flesh. Itit is an a absolutely hororfic thg. G. Staff are handing these out because the fear is, they nt know what has happened and they think it may be a chemical attack. Amy lets go to another clip from this bbc documentary saving syrias children. It shows our guest dr. Hallam visiting a cap w where a septic tank floodededhe only source of ininking wer, spading illns. S. Absololely disgusting. Im not surprisis im susurprised eveveryone is notot dropping dowown dead. Theyey d describe multltiple caf typhoid fever. Its vevery ctagiouous. Id d there any ofof them to coe and spend d one day in this s mp to livee just one day. See e how they wouould like tha. The bubuaucracy of the international ng iss just incredible. I will be having some words. Amy so that was 2013, and the United States that t was under president obama. But today, under President Trump, on friday, u. S. Ambassador to the u. N. Nikki haley said the u. S. Does not think the Syrian People want to be ruled by president assad, but that our priority is no longer to sit there and focus on getting assad out. A lot of people are commenting on this now publicly changed u. S. Positioion, just being a fw days before what is alleged to be a Syrian Government attacked, a gas attack on the people of idlib. Asas doctors and humanitarians, w were not intererested in regime change ad who is in charge. What were interested in is stopping the bloodshed and stopping this mass murder and massacre of civilians. I dont think that it is a very big change in policy to be honest. I think it is a little bit more honest than it was before. I will be speaking with the u. S. Ambassador haley at the summit this evening. I look forward to speaking with her about what does the United Nations intend to do on these blatant disregard for veryry cecenter he militarary lawswd norms. I think this is a dangerous president rings that right now in syria. What becomes normal to tararget and bomb hospitals and use it as a weapon of war, window becomes normal after callis resolutions of the United Nations banning the use of these mass agents of mass destruction, then what happens next yet go another war in europe . E . Is it ok to start bombing your hospitals . Incrediblyt is dangerous. Amy what do you think russia can do . I think russia can do an awful lot. It supposedly brokered this chemical weapons deal fact in a13, which we know was just stage and there have been over 160 two big weapons attack. There was a large one in december using sarin gas. There is a huge amount they can do. Look, were not short on evidence in syria. What we are short on is action. It is complex, but that i cannot believe, you know, we are human beings will stop we put man on the moon. Were talking about setting up colonies on the moon and mars. We can bring a political solution to stop this bloodshed. Amy your hospspital is opening today in aleppo . Yes, that is the glimmer of hope in this real kind of scene of absolute devastation. So the peoples convoy was it basically came out of the bombings of five hospitals back in november. I knew that so many people around the world engaged citizens, wanted to show their care and support and solidarity with syrian humanitarians, but did not know how to channel that. That is where the peoples convoy quintals of over 5000 people crack to this hospital. We then physically took hospital equipment over to syria, working with independent doctors associations, our syrian ngo, and they were so incredibly moved by this happening from around the world. They call it hope hospital. Today it opens to children in the aleppo area. Amy how much humanitarian aid is getting to the people of syria and from International Groups . We have a huge deficit in the human a terry and eight that needs to be delivered. There are multiple reasons for that. There are many that we cannot access. The huge problem is, it is a local he military and better delivering most of the work. Global to Global Protection said we were doing 75 of the military and work. We are receiving a shocking less than 1 of the humanitarian funding. A does not take a genius to work out of the groups who have access that are delivering the aid on the ground do not have the funding, therefore there ae millions of people who are needlessly dying and suffering because were notot able to deliver the aid that is happening there to them. Amy y you will be speaking with the u. N. Ambassador nikki haley. Do you think she made a mistake in saying the u. S. Is not interested in regime change in syria . I think that there has been so many signs by various International Leaders that these war crimes can continue to occur with impunity. And that is what is happening for stop amy dr. Rola hallam, thanks for being with us britishsyrian doctor speaking , at the women in the world summit today. Shes the founder and ceo of the nonprofit cando. Late last year, she led the peoples convoy to the syriaturkey border. They brought medical supplies and helped rebuild a a childres hospital in aleppo. When we come back, noam chomsky. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. We turn now to noam chomsky, one of the worlds best known dissidents. His he is Institute Professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of technology, where he has taught for more than 50 years. One gonzalez and i spoke to him tuesday. After the broadcast, we contained the conversation. I asked him to talk about the situation in syria as well as the broader middle east. Is horrible catastrophe. The alassad regime is a moral disgrace, carrying out the horrendous acts, the russianss wiwith them. Amy why the russians with them. Presimple reasason. Syria isis their one ally in the whole region. Not a close ally, but they do have their one mediterranean basis in syria. It is the one country that is more or less cooperated with them. They dont want to lose their one ally. It is very ugly, but that is what is happening. Have it there is, like the north korean case we were discussing. There have been possible opportunities to terminate the the horse. In 2012, there was an initiative from the russians, which was not pursued, so we dont know how serious it was, but it was a proposal to for a negotiated settlement, in which assad would be phased out, not immediately. You know, you cant tell them, were going to murder you. Please negotiate. Thats not going to work. But some system in which, in the course of negotiations, he would be removed, and some kind of settlement would be made. The west would not accept it, not just the United States. France, england, the United States simply refused to even consider it. At the time, they believed they could overthrow assad, so they didnt want to do this, so the war went on. Could it have worked . You never know for sure. But it could have been pursued. Meanwhile, qatar and saudi arabia are supporting jihadi groups, which are not all that different from isis. So you have a horror story on all sides. The Syrian People are being decimated. Amy and the u. S. Now sending 400 more troops to syria. But if the u. S. Has a better relationship with russia, could that change everything . It could lead to some kind of accommodation in which a negotiated diplomatic settlement would d be implemented, which would by no means be l lovely, t it wouould at least cut down the level l of violencnce, which is critical, because the country is simply being destroyed. It is descending to suicide. Amy President Trump met with sisi on monday, meeting with King Abdullah of jordan on wednesday at the white house, saying theyre not raising the issue of human rights s anymore. Your thoughts on this, and then also, of course, israelpalestine . Well, raising the i issue of human rights is i it means something, but not very much, because take, say, saudi arabia, one of the worst human rights violators in the world. Its our darling. You know, they pour weapons in. Obama sold them more weapons than, i think, any predecessor. Sisi is particularly disgraceful. His dictatorship has driven egypt into some of its worst days. The United States s kind of supported him, but not openly and vigorously the way trump is doing. Trump is its a little bit like what you said about the cabinet. It is kind of like a parody of what goes on all the time. Usual thing is to support brutal dictators, but not with enthusiasm, and with some tapping on the wrist, saying, look, what youre doing is not very nice, and so on. Here, it is saying youre , great. We love you. You know, go ahead and torture and murder people. That it is a terrible blow to the people of egypt. But jordan is sort of a mixed story. But these steps are very regressiveve. With regard to israelpalestine, actually, trump has pulled back from his original position. But his original position that he and his administration was that there is nothing wrong with the settlements. They are not an obstacle to peace. If you look at the way the settlelements have been treatedd over the years of course, they are totally illegal. They are destroying any hope for palestinian rights. There is a systematic israeli program, very systematic. It has been going on since 1967. It is to try t to quietly take over every part of the west bank that is of any value to them, while excluding the areas of palestinian population concentration. So they are not going to take over nablus or tulkarm, but take over everything that is of sisignificance and value, leave dozens, maybe even hundreds, of isolated enclaves and palestinian population concentrations, which can kind of rot on the vine. Maybe the people will leave. Whatever happens, we dont care. That has been going on consistently. Now, if you go back to about 1980, the u. S. Joined the world not only in calling them illegal, but in demanding that they be dismantled. Go back to thehe u. N. Security council resolutions, i think 465, approximately. So, you have to dismantle the illegal settlements. That has been weakened over the years. So, under reagan, they stop amy now you have david friedman, the u. S. Ambassador to israel, whos been approved, right . Who raised money for the settlements. And you have Jared Kushner in charge of the policy. Cox yeah, reagan weakened it. Clinton weakened it. Obama cut it back to not help obstacles to peace. Trump, its not helpful to peace. Meanwhile, we fund jared the Kushner Foundation and, of course, this new ambassador are strong supporters of the ultraright far right, way to the right of netanyahu. The beit el, the community that theyre pouring their money into, is run by an orthodox rabbi whose position is that the army should not follow orders, has to follow the rabbis orders. This is way at the right end of the israeli spectrum. Originally, they said they were going to move the embassy to jerusalem. Theyre kind of backing off on that. At first, their position was theres nothing wrong with settlements. Now theres a mild theyre not helpful to peace. But, meanwhile, the u. S. Continues to pour money and support into fulfilling this project of constructing a greater israel. I should say that the general discscussions about this, i i t, are extremely misleading. What is said on all sides, actually israel, palestinians, International Commentary is that there are two options. Either a twostate settlement, in accord with the longstanding international consensus, or else one state, which would be an apartheid state, in which palestinians would not have righghts. And you could have an antiapartheid struggle, and israel would face whats called ththe demographic problem t o many nonjews in a jewish state. But those are not the two options. There is a third option. The one that is actually being implemented, namely, construction of a greater israel, which will not have a demographic problem because they are excluding the areas of densnse palestinian populatitio, and they are removing palestinians slowly from the areas they expect to take over. So you will get a what is called jerusalem as maybe five times as big as it ever has been, goes all the way into the west bank. About 60 of the west bank, is slowly being incorporated into israel with big infrastructure programs and so on. And this program is just taking place right before our eyes. The United States is providing diplomatic, economic and , military support for it. It will leave the palestinians with essentially nothing. There will be a greater israel, which will have which will not face the dread demographic problem. Amy professor noam chomsky. We will be back with them in 30 seconds. [music break] amy this is democracycy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. Return to mig professor noam chomsky. One gonzalez and i spoke to him on tuesday. Juan i want to ask you about latin america. We had a period for about 10 years of enormous social progress in latin america all these socially minded governments, reduction of income inequality, the only part of the world where there are no nuclear weapons. And yet, now weve seen, in the last few years, real steps backwards. Quite a few of the popular governments, with the exception of ecuador, recently have been thrown out of office, and a deepening crisis in venezuela. Your sense of what has happened, in that, after so much promise, all of a sudden it seems that the region is going backwardrd . Well, there were there were real achievements. But the left governments failed to use the opportunity available to them m to try to create suststainable, viable e economi. Almost every one venezuela, brazil, others, argentina relied on the rise in commodity prices, which is a temporary phenomenon. Commodity prices did rise, mainly because of the growth of china. So there was a rise in the oil price, of soy, and so on and so forth. And instead of trying to develop a sustainable economy with manufacturing, agriciculture, ad so on like venezuela is potentially a rich agricultural cocountry, butut they didnt dep it they simply relied on the commodity raw materialsls commodities they c could export. Thats a very harmful its not only not a successful, its a Harmful Development model, because when you export grain to chinina, lets say they export , manufacturing goods to you, and that undermines your manufacturing industries. And that is pretty much what has been happening. On top of that, there was just enormous corruption. It is just its painful to see the Workers Party in brazil, which did carry out significant measures, just they just could not keep their hands out of the till. They joined the extremely corrupt elite, which is robbing all the time, and took part in it as well and discredited , themselves. And there is a reaction. I dont think the game is over by any means. There were real successes achieved, and i think a lot of those will be sustained. But there is a regression. They will have to pick up again with, one hopes, more honest forces that wont be that will, first of all, recognize the need to develop the economy in a way which has a solid foundation. Not just based on raw material exports, and, secondly, honest enough to carry out decent programs without robbing the public at the same time. Amy what about venezuela . Venezuela is really a disaster situation. The economy relies on oil as to a great probably a greater extent than ever in the past, certainly very high. And the corruption, the robbery , and so on, has been extreme under the especially after chavezs death. So it is i mean, if you look at it, it still has if you look at, say, the u. N. Human development index, venezuela still ranks, say, above brazil. So it is the there are hopes and possibilities for reconstruction and development. But the promise of the earlier years has been significantly lost. Juan i wanted to ask you to talk about a section of your book requiem for the American Dream the 10 principles of concentration of wealth power. You talk about this famous powell memorandum that Justice Powell sent to the chamber of commerce and to others of Major Business groups in 1971 he said businesses losing control over the society, something has to be done to counter these forces. Now, this is a Supreme Court justice issuing Something Like this. Could you talk about this effort by the Business Community , basically to beat back the , movement of the 1960s . Actually, h he was appointed Supreme Court justice a little bit after that. He was then a corporate lawyer, i think, working for tobobacco firms or something. And he wrote an interesting memorandum. It went to the American Chamber of commerce. It was supposed to be an internal memorandum, basically, to the Business Community. It leaked, and as things usually do, and its quite interesting. He didnt actually say that business is losing control. What he said is, business is the is being beaten down by the massive forces of the left, which have taken over everything. The even mentioned the devils who are leading the campaign ralph nader, with his consumer safety efforts, herbert marcuse, who is mobilizing the students to carry out a revolution. And he says they have taken over the media, they have taken overr the universities, theyre practically in control of the whole country. And meanwhile, the poor, embattled Business Community can barely survive under this incredible assault. It is a very interesting picture. The rhetoric should be paid you should Pay Attention to the rhetoric. It is kind of like a spoiled 3yearold who expects to have everything, and somebody takes a piece of candy away from him and they have a tantrum. The world is ending. That was pretty much the picture. Of course, business was essentially running everything, but not totally. There was there were democratizing tendencies in the 1960s. The public became more engaged in Public Affairs and was considered a serious threat. So he calls on the Business Community to defend theirselves from this monstrous attack. And he says, look, after all, were the ones who have the resources. We have the funds. You know, we are the trustees of the universities. We should be able to protect ourselves from this assault that is wiping out the american way, business and so on. That is the powell memorandum. And indeed, it the lesson was understood, not just listening to him. There was a reaction to the activism of the 1960s. The are often called the time 1960s of troubles. They were civilizing the country. That is extremely dangerous. No less interesting than the powell memorandum is another publication that came out from the opposite side of the mainstream political spectrum, the book called the crisis of democracy, published around the same time by the trilateral commission. That is liberal internrnationaliststs from the e major capitalist centers europe, the United States, and japan. The political complexion of this group is illustrated by the fact that they almost entirely staffed the carter administration. That is where they are coming from. The american rapporteur samuel huntington, professor at harvard, the wellknown liberal intellectual. What is the crisis of democracy . Pretty much the same as the powell memorandum. They said there is too much democracy. People who are u usually passive and apathetic, the way theyre supposed to be, are pressing their demands in the public arena, and it is too much for the state to accommodate. They did not mention one Group Corporate interests. That is the national interest. These are the special interests, and they called for more moderation and democracy. They were particularly concerned with what they called this is their phrase the institutions responsible for the indoctrination of the young universities, schools, churches. They are supposed to be indoctrinating the young, and they are not doing their job, as you can see from all these kids running around calling for womens rights and enending the war and so on and so forth. So we have to have better indoctrination of the young. They werere also concerned about the media. They said the media are becoming too adversarial. If you look at what was happening, that is about as much of a joke as powell. They said, if the media dont control themselves and discipline themselves, maybe the state will have to move in and do something about it. This was the liberals. This is the liberal end of the spectrum. You take these two publications side by side. They differ rhetorically. The powell memorandum is literally a tantrum. The crisis of democracy is big words, moderate, you know, intellectuals and so on. But the message is not that very different. It is saying that democracy is simply a threat. The population has to bebe restored to passivity, then everything will be fine. In fact, huntington, the american rapporteur, says, kind of nostalgically, that truman had been able to run the country with the cooperation of a few Corporate Executives and wall street lawyers. That was the good old days, when democracy was functioning. You did not have all these demands and so on. And remember, this is the liberal end of the spectrum. Then you get the powell memorandum, which is the harsher end anand rhetorically, literal, kind of like a tantrum. It is within that framework of they did notch initiate, they articulated that , you get the neoliberal reaction of the past generation, which on every front, including education, economy, undermining of the functioning of political democracy all the factors that have led to the disillusionment and anger of the people who end up being trump voters, voting for their class enemy. It is worth remembering that these people have just concerns, very serious concerns. It is revealed by some pretty remarkable recent revelations. Seen them, probably reported on the quite remarkable fact that mortality is increasing among middleclass, lowermiddleclass, workingclass white americans, middleaged white americans. That is something unknown in developed societies. Mortality keeps declining. And here it is increasing. And the roots of it are what are called diseases of despair. People dont have hope for the future. And fofor pretty good reasons, f you look at the facts of the matter. Real male e wages today are prpy much at the level of the 1960s. In 2007, at the time when there was a good deal of euphoria about the economy, how wonderful its doing, great moderation and so on, economists praising Alan Greenspan as the greatest figure since moses or something saint alan, he was called right at the peak of euphoria, right before the crash, real wages for American Workers were lower than they were i in 1979 when the neoliberal experirimens were just beginning. Peoples lives seriously. They are not starving. These are not the poorest people. You know, they are kind of surviving, but without the hope for without a sense of dignity, of worth, of hope for the future, of some meaning in yoyour life, and so onon. So theyre reacting in often very selfdestructive ways. Amy i want to ask you, your first article you wrote in february was it, 1939 . How old were you . Correct 10. Amy i want to go back to this first article on the fall one the first when i remember. Amy the fall of barcelona to franco. So you were talking abouout fascism and fascist forces. Fascism. I remember im sure it was not a very memorable article. I hope its been destroyed. But amy do you see but if i remember, the part of it. It began by concern about the apparently inexorable spread of fascism austria, czechoslovakia, toledo in spa, barcelona, which was quite significant. That is the end of the s spanish revolution. That took place in february 1939. And it looked like it was just going to go on. It was very frightening at the time. Amy do you think its accurate to use the word fascism or talk about the rise of fascism in the United States . Well, you know, fascism has become a kind of a scare word. Bubut many of f the aspects of fascism are not far below the surface. You go back to, say, the 1940s. Robert brady, great political economist, veblenite political economist, wrote a book called business as a system of power, in which he argued that in all of the state capitalist economies, socalled capitalist economies, really state capitalist. There were developments towawars some of the e institutional structureses of fascism. He was not thinking of concentration camps and crematoria, just the nature of the institutional structures. And that was not entirely false. Could you move towards what bertram gross, around 1980, called friendly fascism . So fascisttype structures without the crematoria, which is not a core, necessary part of fascism. It could happepen. We should recall that through the 1930s, the fascist regimes had pretty favorable attitudes towards them in the west. Mussolini was called by roosevelt that admirable , italian gentleman, and who was maybe misled by hitler. In 1932, one of the Main Business magazines i think forbes had an article with the headline frontpagege sty where the headline was the wops are unwopping themselves. Finally the italians are getting , their act together under mussolini. The trains were running on time, that sort of thing. The Business Community was quite supportive. As late as the late the u. S. 1930s, state department was cant actually say supporting hitler, but saying we ought to tolerate hitler, because hes a moderate standing between the extremes of right and left. We have heard that before. He is destroying the labor movement, which is a good thing. Getting rid of the communists, the socialists, fine. There is rightwing elements, ultranationalist elements at the other extreme. He is kind of controlling them. So we should have a kind of a tolerant attitude toward him. Actually, the most interesting case is george kennan, great, revered diplomat. He was the american coconsul in berlrlin. And as late as 1941, he was still writing pretty favorable comments about hitler, saying you shouldnt be too severe there are some good things , there. We associate fascism now with the real Horror Stories of the holocaust and so on. But that is not the way fascscim was regarded. It was even more strongly supporteted by the british Business Community. They could do business withh them. There was a largely businessrun regimes, which were there was a lot of support in germany because of the it did create Something Like full employment through indebtedness and military spending, and it was winning victories. Could we move in that direction . It has been recognized. You can read it right now in mainstream journals, asking, will the elements of grosss friendly fascism be instituted in a country like the United States . And it is not new. Maybe 10 years ago, there was an interesting article in foreign affairs, main establishment journal, by fritz stern, one of the major german historians of germany. It was called descent into barbarism. And he was discussing the way germany deteriorated from what was, in fact, maybe the peak of western civilization in the 1920s into the utter depths of history 10 years later. And his article was written with an eye on the United States. This was the bush administration, not today. He was saying he didnt say bush is hitler, wasnt saying that. But he was saying there were signs that we should Pay Attention to. He said, i sometimes have concern for the country that rescued me from fascism, when i see what is happening. Amy and do you see the Donald Trumps attack on the press as part of that trend toward fascism, his calling the press the enemy of thehe people . It is dangerousus, but nixon did the same thing. You remember the agnew and so on. Yes, it is dangerous but i think it is well short of what we regard as fascism. But it is not to be dismissed. And i think we can easily see how a if there had been a charismatic figure in the United States who could mobilize fears, anger, racism, a sense of loss of the future that belongs to us, this country could be in real danger. We are lucky that there never has been an honest, charismatic figure. Mccarthy was too much of a thug, you know . Nixon was too crooked. Trump, i think, is too much of a clown. So we have been lucky. But we are not going to be lucky forever necessarily. Amy in my to professor noam chomsky. For the full interview, go to democracynow. Org. Democracy now is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. Email your comments to outreach democracynow. Org or mail them to democracy now p. O. Box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now ] reyes they have been living in honduras for hundreds of years. Now this Minority Group is struggling to protect its land. Im elaine reyes in washington, d. C. And this is americas now. The presence of the garifuna people in honduras dates back over 200 years, but the future of their land may be under ththreat. Chamilio so listen, to tell you the truth, right now we dont we dont trust no one. Hahadden i understand. Chamilio especially w white y hadden us . Chamilio such as yourseself, you know what i i mean. Hadden us. Reyes corresponondent gerry hadden repeports on how development projojects and inincreased violence could leado