Transcripts For MSNBC All In With Chris Hayes 20240706

I spent an extraordinary 12 months in american politics. Twice impeached president is facing multiple criminal investigations, civil and praise across jurisdictions. Its antisemitic in some cases and the platform. As the conservative Supreme Court and the 50 real constitutional right to an abortion. We get all that and more tonight but we begin at the end of this year with historic results with the Midterm Election or democrats came to see in the senate and republicans managed to have defeat from the victory and historically the elections had been a disaster for a first term president in the party in power. As and as nbc noted democratic president s in their first midterms have seen the party lose an average of 40 have seats in five senate seats so watergate i look even worse for the party. Democratic president s in the first midterm at cnn part of those an average of 44 house seats and six senate seats. Many political observers had a bloodbath on the level of 1994 republican evolution for instance. One democrats lost out seats during bill clintons first, term or the 2020 pretty wave. The democrats lost a whopping seat senate broke obamas term. Especially fox news, a red wave was a sure thing. Does it feel like a red wave . It feels like a red wave. Brian the predictions of a red river active. Red wave rising. That red wave is coming. The guaranteed a red wave in pennsylvania. Probably hear the rally in the background right now. Its a big red wave of michigan. Prepping for the worstcase scenario. We are on a red tsunami watch. We are going to see a red tsunami grow. That means a red tsunami. Were not just because a red wave, were gonna see a red tsunami. Crazy gender ideology. Were gonna see a red tsunami. Prediction for tonight . I think its gonna be maybe bigger than anybody thought. On tuesday itll be a big red wave. Enough is enough. Massive red wave. You are about to see a red wave that makes the efforts more like nothing. Thats gonna be responsible for the red wave. I think the way this coming is gonna be like the Elevator Doors with blood pouring of the elevator. The elevators opening up in the shining. That is correct. But its not gonna mean elevators, little more like deep impact colored red. Remember that tail, deep impact disaster money. That is the Red Wave Tsunami that will come. Itll be a brutal week for the democrats. Its beginning on tuesday. Ive already dvrd. Im not gonna, watch or just 100 the tears post red tsunami. What happened to the Red Wave Congresswoman . What happened to the red wave . Once the votes were counted they lost House Majority pleasingly nine seats. They flipped it by leaving John Fetterman to pennsylvania. One chance republicans are trying to claw back. Georgia senate race and trump back republican Herschel Walker headed to a runoff. Once again, fox news was bullish about the republican chances. Herschel walker for senate, i like the ring of that. Ive been to be very fond of him. Im hoping you consider running for high office in georgia. Do i run for governor or senator . Crop of 2022, i got a lot stronger tonight when this is jumping into the georgia gop senator. Today georgia seems to be through the roof. Its in your hands, your country needs you. Herschel, Walker Lindsey graham are live in georgia. This will change the party. Tim herschel. Com team herschel. Com. Team herschel. Com. Tim herschel. Com. Team herschel. Com. You havent lost in Overtime Game in your life . Senatorelect. You went hands down. Herschel walker, congratulations. Or just after the polls closed, nbc news called it and he was one of the weakest candidates. I know he lost to senator. Antagonist on rushing Midterm Election result. So the rights attorney been called as a Senior Reporter for nbc news. What ends up happening is there are tons of focus on the run up, and then there was a shock afterwards. You will process it and then move on. The reason im not, not just because i found it gratifying from the perspective of the vibrancy and resilience of democracy. It is generally one of the most stunning political surprises in turn about in my life. In covering politics i think we forgot they are not all apocalyptic and then there was the one closer than expected in 2020. A lot of political observers said that they can only be off in one direction. You know, its why you saw so many people dismissing their own poll results that actually showed the democrats run okay position. It was also the barrage of catastrophes we have endured of the last five or six years. The idea that something could turn out from the democrats Point Of View much better food you would hope. But its a reminder that the arc of history towards justice. It was an exaggeration, things dont work in that linear way. Things dont work in that linear were not on a sort of endless decline. Thats an important point. That fundamental point weve had a series of shocks to the system and surprise us. The wherein ukraine, the pandemic, they dont just come in one flavor. Things dont always just surprise you for the waist. Yes. And everything you say is true, but we also cant ignore the fact that we had dobbs. Absolutely. It was literally top two issues for most voters. And in addition to that, the electorate has changed. It is changed and a profound and important way, and that doesnt make it the damani Party Electorate yet, but the kids are okay. The kids are okay, but theyre also the most diverse, and when they show up, which they did in the midterms, theyve also demonstrated with the future electorate looks like. We just respond to that point. You cant talk about the midterms without it. And if you were to say, whats the one factor that produce the surprise . I think thats the factor. But it also is the case, i think, to me, as i thought about dobbs in the first half of the year, i knew they were gonna argue this, and i thought pretty clearly the Supreme Court was gonna overturn roe, and the opinion leaked, then the actual opinion came down, and i thought, and i hoped, and i prayed that this would sort of be this wake up call, shock to the system, political activation. And it was. Then, i just worried about the short Attention Span of society. Really. The way all things function in the news cycle, which is something ceasar airy, that its not. How do we end up on ukraine . Where are we on that . Obviously, your bodily autonomy is different from that. But it wasnt necessarily, to me, baked in that would be there in november but for all the work that people put in, and the fact that candidates continued to hammer on it and didnt go away from it. Didnt go away from it, but also linked to the threats that were absolutely. Liberties. Thats my point about the kids, right . They knew it was trans rights. They knew it was whether they get to learn about history in schools. They knew it was about whether it was gonna be about student debt. They knew it was gonna be about who you can live. Because that was explicit in how they overruled roe, and the tremendous efforts that Grassroots Organizations put in to making sure that people knew how to show up despite the efforts. Yes. I think thats exactly right. It was sort of both. It was necessary but not sufficient. So, its impressive, i think, its a political accomplishment for all the people who made it that. In november, you mentioned trans rights and trans issues, and one of the most gratifying lessons, right, as i watched the world of the sort of farthest reaches of the rightwing, which are very obsessed, in a very, i think, unnerving way, with trans folks in their bodies, and what their pronouns are, and how theyre living their lives, and they want to isolate them, they want to ostracize them, and in some places i want to legislate them out of existence, basically. And the degree to which that played as a central theme, i mean, i definitely watched someone live covering the big michigan, like, day before Election Rally for the statewide republican slate, where the Big Star Speaker was like, the swimmer whos annoyed about trans folks swimming. And i was like, wow, thats quite a closing argument. I was also like, i dont know . Im not the target for this. This seems weird to me, honestly, to be your closing argument. And it was so gratifying then, as someone who covers the world in which this sort of obsession percolates, it didnt seem to really register. No, it really didnt. In fact, i think the opposite happened. I think maya made a very good point here. I didnt hear this with anyone except for maybe josh shapiro towards the end, the for a while, a lot of people, this was about rights and liberties. The democrats didnt really run on this. I dont think they really put the sense of this one big omnibus thing. Josh shapiro josh appear, yes, but its sort of seems retroactive now. Thats what was happening. The right was hammering home, lets take some books off the shelves, at least in florida, at least where right now, the most popular republican candidate for 2024, at least thats what he was running on. But you know, the people around him are running on. Lets bring down some books about gender ideology, the true history of america, basically, and lets try as hard as we can to legislate trans people out of existence. Or at least try to make it so that there is a cap on the number of them, somehow. Its really what is going on there. So, the democrats accidentally ran this campaign of, no, you can be what you want to be. You can love who you want to love. And, you know, you have rights as a woman to have bodily autonomy. And i think they actually put it together until the end, though. When i think that they wound up in this position of, wait, where the american position here. Right. And i think liberty, freedom, and democracy, which are the most cliche things to run on, ends up being a huge part of what democrats did run on. Which, again, and you can vote and your vote matters. In some ways, florida is kind of a test case because somewhat the one thing ron desantis ran entirely on, both opposition to covid and opposition to trans people, but we didnt have is the antiabortion piece. Because they only have a 15 week ban in florida. And without those three things without that part of it, i mean, these things are all over determined. But he didnt see the kind of democratic backlash that you saw on so many other states. And i should not, that 15 week ban, he literally would run away from microphones when asked about it. About whether theyre gonna do anything. And after the big victory, a bunch of republicans did say, oh, were not gonna just leave it at a 15week ban. Were definitely going to stick around, because i want to talk about the open extremism, the antisemitism, the anti democratic sentiment that were seeing across the rightwing infiltrating Republican Party. From the top down, thats next. If you think all pads are exactly the same. Think again. 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Ahhh youre Kelly Clarkson i am. And you need this. I love it are we in a wayfair commercial . Maybe. Personal sauna. Ok i need that. Ahhhhh wayfair, youve got just what i need this was a year in which many prominent republicans openly embraced their very worst instincts. From the sitting congresswoman warmly greeeting a White Supremacist conference, to the grotesque Conspiracy Theories after a violent attack against the speaker of the house and her family, the calls from the ex president determinate the United States constitution and overcome his election loss. Still here at the table with me the sort of notion of extremism in the gop has been, obviously, much covered and much discussed, its always hard to sort of track the trajectory of it. Obviously, the top of that is donald trump. And we didnt get to talk about in the last block his role in the Midterm Election, which was clearly formidable, and also, i think, for a bunch of reasons one is that hes just profoundly unpopular. One of the least popular public figures in american life. But also because i think hes come to represent extremism in a way thats actually quite different from 2016, when polls showed voters showed him as more moderate than hillary clinton. Which is striking. And very funny exchange with more mcdaniel, is the head of the rnc, and continues to be about trump, where she just cant say the obvious thing. Take a listen. Would you publicly say that donald trump bears any responsibility for some of the losses in the Midterm Elections . When you say that . You know, i dont like this. I dont like these Parcelling Out heres the one thing that i think people should be talking about. The amount of ticket splitting. The amount of republicans that went out and voted for republican at the top of the ticket look at arizona, the top vote getter is a republican. Look at georgia. We had eight of nine statewide races won by republicans. But why are republicans going in voting for one republican and not the other . We have to work hard to bring those is that not an answer . The answer is trump, isnt it . Im not into the blame game right now. [laughter] i love it. Because she perfectly sets it up. Edges right up to it. Why, what can it be . Yeah, that staring you in the face. And i do think that, again, him as an actual person, but him as a symbol of extremism and the median voter doesnt actually like extremism in the wake of the election losses, even ronna mcdaniel, who doesnt want to say, it is articulating the clear logic that that is the problem. Right. And i think to go back to the conversation were having, whats so heartening is that we didnt have this repudiation of trump, obviously, in 2016 as people expected. It was kind of ambiguous in 2020, because it was so close, because republicans did better than expected. This was finally the moment where kind of everybody said, oh, people really hate this. Right . People really dont want to go in this direction. But at the same time, you know, the party, as it becomes smaller, as the Republican Party has in many ways, doesnt necessarily become more moderate. Because no, right . Moderates are the ones that killed off, and the hardcore as left, and they gain even more power. Now, its like a demi for four hours. All the moderates get boiled off. Its like the thickest thing there at the bottom of the pot, you know . The more you chase people away. Thats what you end up with Marjorie Taylor greene being a central figure in the Republican Party. Yeah. I mean so what is so stunning, we at the Leadership Conference did a civil rights monitor poll. And one of the things that was striking, of course, is that everyone was saying across our poll what we know. Its people were desperate to save democracy. And understand that hate and bias and the divisions that we are too often hearing from trumpism in explicit and disturbing ways is a big part of that problem. And we even had conservatives in our poll. Right . Going, this is a problem. And so, i say that because part of the hope is that theres a majority in this country that actually just cares about rights. Cares about justice. Thinks we shouldnt be divided. The explicitness of it as hate driven antisemitic, antiblack, antitrans, antiantianti. Fearmongering has had a huge impact. In a good way, because we are the majority. And it also feels to me and again, this is one layer more abstract than the specific rights, antibigotry side of thing. Just generally, in the 20 years ive covered politics, you generally want to be the moderate versus the extreme. And sometimes, that works to the benefit of conservatives against people on the left whose ideas i like, right . Who might be viewed as extreme. But generally, what you want to do there are these laps you can take. For instance, you could just condemn, like, outright nazis. Like, guys like nick fuentes, who do joking things about, were all these people actually killed in the holocaust . But then you cant meet with them. Thats my point. The easiest way up in the world, its amazing to me that this unbelievable judgment comes down from the American People on precisely what youre saying. We dont like this, this is gross an extremist, and then, like, nick fuentes is a white nationalist, and kanye, whos on this insane antisemitic bender, show up to have dinner with the guy whos the leader of the party. Yes. The wory is, and i hate to add another cooking analogy to this, but the way is donald Trump Realizes this is baked into the cake of his base now. And its years and years too late to just slough it off the top. Especially when theyre making it all the Talking Points in the means for him that he just spells down into regular human he cant condemn them because theyre his base. Right. For him, thats an issue. Thats part of the problem to. I think republicans are trying to figure out, is his base our base . Like, can we just get rid of these people . And is Somebody Just going to run on exactly trumps positions with a healthier looking but the thing for me that so bizarre, again, from a tactical standpoint those people all voted for brian kemp in georgia. What are they gonna do . But for Stacey Abrams . I dont think so. The hardcore hits in georgia, they vote for brian kemp. But brian kemp, he did one thing in his life thats moderate, which is that he refused to have a coup in georgia im the moderate one. Its not that hard. The fact that these people cant see the obvious writing on the wall, where we need you to stop coaching people. I know that. I know that. We need to desktop coaching people. But youre absolutely right. Those are the names of politics like a broken in 2016. Thats exactly right. Trump said im gonna turn the Southern Strategy on its head. The Southern Strategy says, when quaint, not, not gonna get you into my base without being explicit, as Ronald Reagan did in 1980. Property taxes. Property taxes, crime schools. Schools. All the dog whistles. But what trump says is im Gonna Go There and be explicit. Im gonna say its okay. Ill have steve bannon normalizing it. Ill bring White Supremacists into the white house. Well have a good old big party. Well just do it by being economic populists as opposed to actual extremists. But i think the big debate and not analysis, 2016, afterwards, was, it was 2016 a fluke . Or a kind of hinge point . Right . Was it like, this is the rebellion of the sort of Post Industrial and the answer is its both. The answer is both, but the degree to which it was a fluke has gotten stronger watching this style of politics fail in three successive elections, where youre like, oh, dont go around being a jerk. Which is the most obvious political sense you could talk to someone, actually turns out to be good advice. Yes. I guess kanye said i like hitler after the meeting with donald trump, but yes, that is is the kind of sentiment that can be used to be able to very decisively separate yourself. If you hire me as a consultant, on the first day, its like, what should i say . Offer a third option, which is went peak, a plus plus culture war for five years. And people got tired of it. Im just exhausted. I think thats also true. People are getting killed. Yes. People are getting killed. Yes. And its happening over and over and over again. Black people, people who are jewish, i mean, lgbt club in colorado. The translation is this is actually taking lives. Its not theoretical i think youre right. Its something that burns out quickly in terms of its appeal, and maybe its not that sustainable. Please stick around, weve got legal issues to talk about. Thanks so much. Coming up, the corruption of the conservative Supreme Court and the legal issues piling up for the ex president who put three of those justices on the bench. Its all still ahead. Dont go anywhere. So, we switched to tide pods free gentle. It cleans better, and doesnt leave behind irritating residues. And its gentle on her skin. Case, closed its gotta be tide. One role of a lifetime. One sore throat. But she had enough. She took Mucinex Instasoothe sore throat lozenges. Show your sore throat whos boss. Mucinex instasoothe. Works in seconds, lasts for hours. Id like to thank our sponsor Liberty Mutual. They customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Contestants ready . Go only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. One thing that ran throughout the year was the revelation of corruption and distrust, the center of Many American institutions. For instance, early draft, the Supreme Courts decision to overturn roe v. Wade, justice alito, who wrote the draft, bemoaned the breach of protocol. It was a grave betrayal of trust by somebody. The leak also made those of us who were thought to be in the majority in support of Overruling Roe targets for assassination, because it gave people a rational reason to think they could prevent that from happening by killing one of us. Investigation into who leaked that draft never did find the culprit. The New York Times later reported an accusation that alito himself had leaked a decision in 2014. But the poster child for the Supreme Courts problems with conflicts of interest and corruption was ginni thomas, the wife of Justice Clarence thomas. Ginni thomas had never been shy about her support for donald trump, saying this in 2017. I am happy to be here. But my husband told me that the president asked about me twice. So, im wearing my trumpet button. We need [applause] a, its the time to be behind whoever is our president , because there is a war for our country, and the things that we believe in going on. Ginni thomas, shes long been a conservative activist, but she wasnt joking about a war for the country. The january Six Committee got a hold of Text Messages sent to Donald Trumps Chief Of Staff mark meadows, urging matters to do what he could do to overturn trumps defeat keep him in power. Clarence thomas then refused to recuse himself from multiple cases involving trumps very effort to remain in power, including some having to do with discovery that very texts. Somehow, the stories only scratched the surface of the republican assault on the rule of law. More of the ongoing threats from donald trump and his allies, next. And the National Park foundation. And the largest automotive donor to meals on wheels. And makeawish. Get a new subaru during the share the love event and subaru and our retailers will donate Three Hundred dollars to charity. People remember ads with a catchy song. So to help you remember that Liberty Mutual customizes your home insurance, heres a little number youll never forget. Customize and save only pay for what you need. Liberty Liberty Liberty liberty Classical Piano Music Liberty Liberty liberty [reporter] one of the deadliest Mass Shootings in us history at Pulse Nightclub in orlando. [barbara] walking into the building for the first time after the shooting, it was crippling, but it had to be preserved. If you are an ally of this community, speak out. There are more of us together than apart. It is the power of love in its rawest form. Classical Piano Music the radical rightwing Supreme Court overturned 50 years of precedent and their decision striking down Abortion Protections and roe v. Wade. It was a decision that immediately stripped where health care for millions of people across the u. S. , and the consequences of the decision continued to reverberate around the country. The monumental decision is really only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this corrupt court. It is ruled by a class of conservative justices better history making an intent on making more history in the worst way. I want to bring in maya wylie, former assistant u. S. Attorney, angel weisman, who served as a Lead Prosecutor in muellers special counsels office and charles coleman, former Senior Assistant to the District Attorney in brooklyn. Great have you all here. I think the single biggest political actor this year was the court, with the Dobbs Decision that overturned precedent. Both for what it meant immediately, in a way ive never quite seen a Court Decision in my lifetime from monday to tuesday, you have these rights, then you dont have those rights. You can obtain an abortion, you cant obtain an abortion. And also, the political ramifications. What do you think about . I think youre absolutely right. And as we are just saying, because it also made clear that other fundamental rights coming. That there was a game plan. And then, making clear that not only are we gonna take from more than half the population, by the way, when were talking about women, but were actually gonna signal this as a way in which were gonna behave around fundamental rights in general. Remember, this is the first time the Supreme Court has taken away a fundamental right that is recognized for decades. And weve actually been watching this march forward and other cases since dobbs. Go ahead. Maya, the thing there being more coming is something that id tie to a larger conversation around the securing of democracy. I think its very interesting for as much conversation as we had during midterms this year about how important it was to secure democracy, one of the things that we neglected to tie into that conversation was the importance of looking at the Supreme Court, and what was going on there. Because at the end of the day, democracy is only as secure as our faith in the institutions that uphold it, and the Supreme Court being an example of that is something that we completely overlooked in that discussion. This is the thing. Im so glad you brought that up. Because that guardrail has held to a certain extent. Right . When trump was flooding the courts with nonsense, it went nowhere. Recently, we had another test case with judge cannons, you know, largely view to be lawless order giving essentially donald trump special treatment, taking away criminal evidence no criminal defendant anywhere in history has ever gotten for any reason, overruled, 30, not an appeal to the Supreme Court. But heres the thing, to your point, charles. Whats so scary is that its lake, you just need five brain wormed folks on the Supreme Court who are just ingesting the worst media in the universe to go along with it, and then thats the law, and. You as someone whos devoted his life to the law, how do you get up in the morning im serious and think about the law in those terms . Look, ive reviewed this when bush v. Gore, where that decision was on that was very hard to sort of wake up to the next day and say, oh, lets go to work and be a lawyer in a functioning court. I know judges had the same view, which is how to actually do this when the Supreme Court is not a model of the rule of law . I do think here original point, theres an irony here, which is you have dobbs came out, you had justice thomas, two point, signaling that this is step one, because hes basically saying theres no reason that all of these things shouldnt be reversed. But you have the political reaction. So, yes, it only takes five, as Justice Oconnor used to say, with the Supreme Court about, its five. You just have to get to that number. But if they continue down this road, there is a sort of real potential political silver lining, which we saw in the midterms. Yeah. I want to just raise this issue. Because i think the only answer you can get to this place of impotent about the court. Because honestly, i dont think the votes are gonna be able to expand the court. I dont think so. That might change overtime, but when you think this, look at the Approval Rating in the u. S. Supreme court, its record High Disapproval right now. They really are lost a lot of people this year. I dont know if theyre getting back. Those of, i think, a real change in how liberals view the court, which i think because of the war on court in the last few years, theyve viewed at it as fundamentally an entity that was protected, even how do you think, maya, about the world of politics in Civil Society as checks on the court . So, one way is that and youre exactly right, chris, that for example, conservatives have been focused on elections because they can control the courts. As a means to an end. As a means to that end. They see it as power, and then think about the politics as a way of getting the powers of the court. And that has not been true for the most part, for a lot of democratic voters. I think that has shifted, and that Approval Rating is one element of it. And even for moderates, because i think the clear message is that you can have ideology on a court where the expectation was rule of law. And that is a shift that people because they see it in real time. The other thing about it, announcing like you said before, announced in dobbs, theres the right thing, and then theres this sort of meta issue about precedent. This to me is the other big thing. The only thing that makes the Supreme Court different in a functional sense from a legislature of nine is they are bound by something other than, well, now Kevin Mccarthy runs the house. Yesterday, nancy pelosi ran. Thats how legislators work and thats fine, thats democracy. But to the extent that you wholesale throw that out, charles, you cant pretend to mean what youre doing anything other than legislating. You are correct. It is interesting, one of my old professors would often say the Supreme Court is not last because they are always right, they are always last. That is the thing that people have to remember. When you are looking at it from any sort of overall sense of judgment, a place of judgment in terms of the decision that being made. You are on point when you say, without the notion of precedent being adhered to, we are throwing that out, it takes the rails off the entire thing. I think one of the things, zoom even for the back, this is going to cause us to do when we are talking about, as an electorate, where we go from here. Look at our elected officials and say, from a policy space, how are you going to protect us . How are you going to codify this . If the court is going to do what they have shown themselves starting to do, how can i count on you to protect me from them . I do think it is complicated because, there are decisions by the Supreme Court where they say, we made a mistake. They do reverse themselves. You cant just say, every time they dont uphold Starry Decisis and say, we are just going to adhere to it, here, there are two things. One, such an abrupt shift with the personal changes. Do not pass go, just off you go, feels like he has got his five, hes going to do what he needs to do. Then it is the substance of the decision. When you overrule roe v. Wade and people who spent 50 years with that as a fundamental right, you are going to have a different reaction. Its not really about decisis or not, its really much more a reaction to what the substance of the decision is rather than this. I want everyone to stick around. Next, i want to take a look at the numerous legal issues facing the disgraced ex president. Where it all stands and what is going to look like in 2023. We will be right back. This year has been an absolute avalanche of legal issues for donald trump. The ex president s namesake business was found guilty of illegal tax fraud, he faces an inquiry by the Attorney General for his Business Practice and renewed scrutiny from the manhattan da of a 2016 Hush Money Payment made to a film actress. On the federal level, there is a new special counsel jack smith, his dual investigations into separate inquiries. The mishandling of government documents and the president s possible involvement or incitement of the capitol riot, attempts to overturn the election. Meanwhile in georgia, a grand jury in Fulton County is looking into attempted interference in that states 2020 election. Still at the table, maya wylie, Andrew Weissmann im gonna play this game all three of you. Here is a thought experiment. There is a client who is anonymous. We are in a counterfactual world. You get hired, Andrew Weissmann, as the new legal team. They fire their old lawyers and they want, you get the Briefing Book with the rundown of the legal issues facing your client. Your first meeting, your client says to you, am i going to be indicted . You say what . Yes. Bye bye, baby. It is happening. You really think that if youre advising him right now or any other client with this stuff, you say, you know what time it is. Its not whether its going to happen, its when and with how many of these things that are in front of you. How many counts. I would say to him, what we have to focus on is the state cases. You are going to get indicted federally, at the end. That is what jack smith is going to do. Whether it is on one or two things, we dont know. But, either one of those is not good. One is better than two. That is going to happen. There may be a political solution ultimately on a federal indictment because, if there is a republican president , it is unlikely that that will come to fruition. There will be a trial, therell be a jury verdict and you will be sentenced before there is the next president ial election. That is one area that we have to worry about. Understand this is going to happen. The real Name Of The Game is the states. There is no ability to be pardoned federally for a state crime. If there is a georgia indictment or a new york indictment, that is where you have to worry because if you are indicted in new york, you are going to go to jail. In georgia, you might go to jail as well unless they change the rules and allow the governor to pardon you. So, that is where we need to spend our time, looking at those cases and figuring out what the defenses are. Both of those, i think there are potential issues. I think the strongest of all of the things that we have seen, at least on the outside, is the maralago case. Strongest in which direction . In the sense that the government is going to indict and its hard to see a valid defense there. Why is that . That is a simple case. He took the documents, he knew he took the documents. There is gonna be a whole lot of lawyers from the white house who are key witnesses to say, i told him not to do it. I told him it was illegal, i told him that these are government property. The fact that it took 18 months is going to be unbelievably damning evidence. Renado has used this line, i think others has. Its kind like a drug case. If you get searched, and youve got a pound of cocaine, you are in a lot of trouble. You have some explaining to do because, the thing is there, you are in possession of the illegal thing. You have to come up with some theory that is going to have to be pretty good to get out of all of that problem. For most of the, donald trump from a legal perspective spent the year as the gingerbread man. No one could capture him, no one could pin him down. Until this maralago thing exploded. I agree with andrew, it is the most straightforward route as a former prosecutor that i would use or look at in terms of everything else. It is so cut and dry. The intent is there, the timeline, the notice, all of the things add up. And then you actually get the documents with his personal effects. It is really, the easiest case to establish. He really doesnt have a defense. I expect that he will likely play to the court of public opinion. Trying to minimize the charges because he doesnt have a leg to stand on in the court of law. I want to talk about that in a second. Im i agree, this is the strongest prosecution. Im just going to say, georgia, georgia, georgia. Fulton county jury, he is directly engaged in trying to find an exact number of votes that he needs to win. He has made multiple calls, he sends his Chief Of Staff down there. He is directly implicated. Clearly, trying to influence the outcome of that election. It is not going to be an easy thing. Can mount a defense. Im just looking at the juries im just saying, he has got a lot. The line that ive used before on the air, and i continue to use, i live in chicago and i got my start as a reporter. When i heard that phone call, when my first thoughts was, if there was a recording of a chicago altman who just lost the race calling the cook county clerk and saying, i just need these votes, that would be indicted by the northern district, u. S. Attorney, by the end of the week in a big we got him pr thing. It would be a badge of honor. Those cases roll up all the time. He is on tape going, this thing is golden. I think its a little more complicated there. The job is as a prosecutor and defense lawyer, it is to make sure that youre looking to do everything for possible arguments. That wasnt a phone call just with donald trump and just with him. It is so important for the state to know exactly what happened beforehand. He was clearly reading from a script. You want to make sure that he does not have a defense that is saying, i was told by my lawyers. This was blessed. The lawyers have been great because a lot of times of lawyers will bless something they shouldnt have. If they do that, it gives the client a potential defense. This gets to something that is really important. These are aside from the maralago case, which we talked about it again, i think youre right. There is a weird thing where the most serious things he did are the hardest cases to make. You know what im saying . I keep coming back to this. The most important crime donald trump tried to commit was it is very complicated. I said, from a long time ago earlier this year, what ends up being the thing that nails the coffin shut for him may not be the most exciting, most sensational thing. Think about the fact that elliott ness, capone, it was taxes. It may not be the most sensational thing that brings him down, but there is reason for that because this is a guy who has been involved in a lot of very shady businesses. But he hasnt stood trial for them all. I just want to say, i think he is going to be indicted in georgia. I think what we are talking about is, when does he actually go to prison . We dont know. And maralago is the best bet. I completely agree with that. A man whos out here saying hes gonna run for president is facing very serious state charges. What he is known for is being a mob boss that says, wink, wink, nod, nod. He was not winking and nodding in this case. That is a very good point. Charles coleman, i learned a lot the table, thank you very much. That is it for this Special Edition of all in, i hope you are having a fantastic holiday. Have a great night. Good evening and thank you good evening and thank you for joining us thi