It . This is Donald Trumps doing. What we are seeing is what he wanted people to see. When a desperate people in the other side of the border to see, wanted americans to see and democrats to see so they would build his wall. But is this a step too far . Donald trump said he can shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. Is separating kids from their parents what he had in mind . Is this proof of what he can get away with . Or is it beyond even what his people will swallow . Good evening, im chris plaj mas in washington. President trump and his administration came under intense criticism for the socalled zero tolerance immigration policy. Resulting in forced family separations. Much of the mounting public outcry was sparkeded by images like these. Of small children looking on as u. S. Border patrol officers detained their parents. Then there are the newly released recordings sobbing children at a detention facility. Nbc news has not obtained the audio from a civil rights attorney who he said he received it from client. Lets listen. Nbc has not been able to independently authenticate that recording. The administration would continue to prosecute all criminals. Dhs is no longer ignoring the law. Were enforcing the laws as they exist on the books. As long as illegal entry replains kranl offense, dhs will not look the other way. Despite the mounting pressure, the president is also pushed back against criticism. Immigration is the fault and all of the problems that were having because we cannot get them to sign legislation. We cannot get them even to the negotiating table. I say its very strongly the democrats fault. The United States will not be a migrant camp and it will not be a refugee holding facility. It wont be. Seeking to deflect the president laid blame at the feet of democrats. Those comments contradict statements by his own attorney general. And cleave hief of staff who he champion this policy. I have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border. If youre smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. And that child may be separated from you as required by law. A big name of the game is deterence. If its a family separation stands as a tough deterrent . Could be a tough deterrent. A much faster turn around on asylum seekers. Even though they say that is cruel and heartless. I think cruel and heartless, i wouldnt put it quite that way. The children will be taken care. Theyre put into foster care or whatever. But the pig boibig point is th t elected to come to the United States. There is a technique that no one hopes will be used extensively or very long. Zero tolerance which the administration rolled out back in may is the brain child of Senior Policy Adviser steefphen miller. Rolling out the policy was a simple decision by the administration. Washington post is also reporting to the president saying political advantage in all of this. According to the white house officials, the president s calculated he will gain political leverage and congressional negotiations by continuing to enforce a policy he claims to hate. Joining me right now is nbc News White House correspondent kristen welker, peter baker from the New York Times, Jennifer Ruben from the Washington Post and jacob subrov is outside of one of the largest Immigration Processing Centers in mcallen, texas. I want to start with kristen. Kristen, it seems like they said in the cowboys movies, this president is speaking with a forked tongue. One is this is our policy of zero tolerance. We believe in it. We have to separate. We have to put the parents on trial. The other statement coming out from the secretary of Homeland Security was, oh, yeah. By the way, if you want to change this, go ahead. We would like you to do that. We want to change the policy. We believe it. That makes no sense to a person listening. I think thats why this is such a growing crisis for this administration. You heard those two different messages on display in the briefing that was given by dhs secretary neilsen and then Sarah Sanders who really stressed the president hates this policy. Wants to see it changed. Is bothered by it. Secretary neilsen really dug in on the fact that this is a crisis created by past administrations. Is it a policy that this president is responsible for or not . I tried to press neilsen on that point and said the bottom line is this started when the attorney general announced that zero tolerance policy. If the president hates it, why doesnt he pick up the phone and change it . She, of course, punted. She put the blame on congress. Its becoming very difficult for them to explain this and to be on the same page. It looks to me, you know, covering politics all these years and looking at her, she did a very good job today of defending what cant be defending. Basically, they want to change the policy but theyre proud of it. Is she in detention . Is she on the line for her job . I think this is a critical test for her. We know that she was essentially picked by chief of staff john kelly, ultimately President Trump got onboard with this. But there have been some tensio tensions behind the scenes, some differences of approach. The president said descent feel as though she is securing the border enough. I think this is a critical test. That briefing whats a critical test for her. Will she be able to keep this up . Thats a big question. He undoubtedly was watching that briefing today. She faced a lot of tough questions, chris. Last question to you. This is the one i want your answer. Youre on television. You broadcast. You get the message across. I try to do the same thing. The president is very good at creating reality tv. He creates a world through television. This is a Television Show that nobody wants to watch. No american wants to watch kids and hear them crying. Kids crying when they cry at church is fine. But these kids are crying because of policy, because their parents have been taken away from them. Thats why theyre crying. How can the president defend what he knows is a lousy reality show . I think hes struggling to do it, chris. You saw that when he surprised us and came out on the north lawn on friday. And we peppered him with questions about this. The humanity of it. He got very upset. And he pointed the finger at democrats. Thats his tactic right now. To point the finger at democrats. Its a tough argument to make though because, of course, there is his own zero poll rance policy. I do think that we have seen President Trump dig in whether it comes to having a fight. He rarely backs away from a tough fight, chris. Were watching that unfold right now even though as you rightfully point oiut, these images is not what the president or the first lady wants to be watching. I think the question is will he add any point back away from this fight . Just tonight, ted cruz is introducing emergency legislation. So the pressure is mounting on this president to do something. He knows he does have the power to do it. The question is will he . Kristen, great watching you there. I love the back and forth. I think you hit them right on the rhead with the policy. A policy they claim they invented but they claim the democrats for not getting rid of it. This is crazy talk. Let me go to jacob at the reality that exists down there, not just the tv show. Jacob, tell us what you see down there, what we should know. Well, let me just also sing kristens praises. She asked the question we still dont have an answer to. Where are the toddlers . Where are the girls . Weve been given access to two 100 facilities run by health and Human Services where the separated Child Migrants are being held. Ive been in one of them. Nbcs got in another. We havent seen any girls or toddlers. What we do know and what i would like to know, what the president would react if he got to see what i saw in that facility is that 1100 young kids have been separated from their family right here in the Rio Grande ValleyBorder Patrol sector and in this building right here, the mcallen processing center, there were 1200 people last night. Whether you walk in there and there is talk of cages or not, what do you want to call them . There are cages. They look like dog kennels. Theyre not just adults or Families Together. Theyre Young Children sitting in there and increasing number of Young Children sitting in those cages because they were separated from their parents. And more are being separated every single day. It makes you sick to look at. I would like to know what the president would think if he was actu actually inside there . The secretary of home land security has been down here and inside the detention centers. Id like to know shz hae behas here since the separation policy was put in place . Has she taulked to the Border Patrol agencies . The four social workers in there last night having to deal with increasing number of children separated from parents because of the very policy. Its not a democratic policy. Its a policy put into place by donald trump. Who put together the policy of separating boys from girls and younger kids. That is sophies choice kind of thing. Did trump call that in from the bench . Who put that policy in . Letting you see the older boys. Who told them not to let you see the girls and younger boys . Who did that . The shelters are controlled by the department of health and Human Services. The facilities are run by professional, competent childcare professionals, licensed professionals, doctors in those facilities. Licensed caregivers in those facilities. By all accounts, health and hum Human Services is doing a good job of taking care of the children wlachlt is dumped on their plate by this administration, the children coming out of this building is more kids than ever before. So there are 11,000 children currently in the care of health and Human Services. Today they said only about 1,000 of those have been separated from their parents. If you extrapolate the rate at which the kids are coming out of this facility and going into that one, it will be 20,000 by august. Why dont they want to show us yet where the girls are and where the toddlers are . What the toddlers care look like . People are concerned about the Young Children. And they want to know that theyre okay. Lets talk about the heat down there. They put the kids in tents. By the way, side question wlach. What do the pr people tell you about letting you see the boys and not the other children wlach . What is the execution for that . Thats a good question. I truly believe they want to get us in the places. They have not done it yet. They tell us well get you in as soon as we open up one of the places for a tour. There is only a couple of them and bouncing around the country from one of threes to the other. This tenlt city, i believe, will be next on the list for us. Were going to try to get into that tenlt city, tent camp is the way to call it where the overflow crowds are being held right now. But, look, if i was them, id make it a priority. The American People want to know. People are contacting me on social media every day. Where are the girls . Where are the toddlers . It is something im hearing over and over. If i was them and standing behind that desk or going around the country on the site surveys tlashgs is t , that would be the first thing i do. They now know everything thanked thanks to your reporting. Theyre splating kids for pr reasons. Let me go to peter. What do you make of the front page impact here . I get the sense this is one time where trump has cut down his coalition to a smaller number. They may be against illegal immigration. But not this cutting edge stuff. Yeah. It is striking over the weekend you saw Critical Mass begin to build of criticism that wasnt just from the left but also from the right. Obviously laura bush, the former first lady, some senators like Susan Collins and Lindsey Graham and also the New York Post editorial page. I think that was why you saw so Many Administration officials starting with the president himself out there today trying to push back, trying to defend themselves. Theyre on the defensive on immigration which is a position theyre not used to being. And theyre trying to get back on the offense. Do you think theyre going to be able to pull back on this policy that they put into effect without law . They went their direction. Will they change and give it up now that the heat is on . Thats an interesting question. Any other administration probably would have done that by today just, you know, the National Political course of things. That tape you played is obviously very powerful. The pictures that have come out of the region are very powerful. Normal political reaction would be to make the pictures and audio go away. But thats not the way this president generally reacts. He doesnt like it to be pushed. Hes using this, obviously, to Push Congress to get legislation he thinks is necessary to defend the border. But if it looks like a cynical ploy, thats one more piece of criticism from people even in his own party. Thank you, peter. Let me go to jennifer. Gods children. I open with that. They are gods children. Every religion believes that. Kids are kids we get from god. They come to us. Were responsible for looking out for them. They dont decide what country to live in. And we have to look out for them when theyre here. Yet this is trumps country. He keeps winning the pr wars. Will he win this one . I dont think so. I think speaking of religions, you have really every religious group out there, catholic bishops, reformed jews, methodists. Even franklin graham. Yeah, a big trump supporter condemning this and condemning sessions for trying to quote scripture in defense of this. I think peter and the others are exactly right. The pictures and the sound are going to naw at americans hearts. Ted cruz doesnt make compromise o on policy issues, went down to the border. He had film taken of him sitting with kids and talking to parents. Now hes scared and introducing emergency legislation. You had ben sass who likes to write a tlot of facebook posts saying this policy is wicked. Will he join a policy initiative . I think youll see some movement in congress and trump will will try to take credit for it. At this point, no one cares who gets credit for it. The republicans look awful. I think mothers especially. Yes. Absolutely. I just looked. You dont have to be a genius to see the women like laura bush and milana trump are making noise about this. This is for real. Thank you. Great reporting. Great in the action fighting to get the truth in that press room. Jacob, you do this better than anybody, that on scene reporting, the best there s peter baker, i love the front page of the New York Times because of you. Coming up, well get the politics of the president s policy of separating kids from their parents doing it sneakily as we is he had tonight. Trump and the republicans are on the hook for a policy roundly criticized as immoral separating boys from girls and older from younger so it looks good . Hes doing it. Plus, long time trump associate roger stone now remembers isnt this cute remembers have a meeting with a russian pushing dird on hillary clin. He called p himself Henry Greenberg. Like a baseball player. Told the House Intelligence Committee he had zero contacts with russians but now he remembers the meeting. Remember what i told you years ago about rolling disclosure . You remember it at the appropriate time. This is set up by another trump pal. Michael caputo is going to join us. And the hardball roundtable over what is lahappening in mexico. And someone says trump lies all the time. And the party will pay the price. Finally, let me finish with trump watch. There is hardball, where the action is. With hotels. Com to give venture cardholders 10 miles on every dollar they spend at thousands of hotels. All you have to do is pay with this. At hotels. Com venture. 10 miles per dollar . That is incredible. Brrrrr. I have the chills. Because youre so excited . Because ice is cold. 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The Washington Post points out, state legislative elections in washington this year will be conducted using the map challenger said was overwhelmingly favoring republicans. The maryland Congressional District will remain the same including the district that challenger said was drawn to elect a democrat. Well be right back. Birth name hannah. Not a dresses her dog in human baby clothes kind of freak. Nah. Hannah has a cat. Hannahs a freak about fresh baked every four hours bread. Look at her utilizing a bread colored perfect gage thingy. So, its just right yep, hannahs a freak. The kind of freak that makes the world a better place to eat. Freaky fresh. Freaky fast. Jimmy johns. Freak yeah. Which is why i use armor tall ultra shine wash wipes. Y. They effectively remove dirt, dust and grime with no water. That car is in tip top shape we are both in tip top shape armor all, its easy to look good. And i heard that my cousins so, wifes sisters husband was a lawyer, so i called him. But he never called me back if your cousins wifes sisters husband isnt a lawyer, call legalzoom and well connect you with an attorney. Legalzoom. Where life meets legal. Welcome back to hardball. President trump is lashing out at critics. Once again, he is falsely blaming democrats saying they could end the policy. We can do this very quickly if the democrats come to the table. Everybody wants to do it. We want to do it more than they do. If they come to the table instead of playing politics, we can do it quickly. Attempts to deflect blame on to democrats, the president is facing increasing pressure to end the policy, even those within the own republican party. In a statement today, nebraska senator ben sass wrote, family separation is wicked. It is harmful to kids. And absolutely should not be the default u. S. Policy. Americans are better than that. That is from a republican in nebraska. Late today, ted cruz announced he introduce emergency legislation to keep Families Together after they cross the border. They report that even as pressure increases on trump to change the policy, sources say trump views the issue as leverage and will try to get funding for a border wall for a rollback of the policy. Secretary neilsen rejected that notion and joined the president pointing the finger at congress. It is clearly within their power to change the laws. They should do so. The children are not being used as a pawn. Were trying to protect the children which is why im asking congress to act. For more, im joined by democratic senator tammy baldwin. Senator, a couple things. It seems like the difference between the two parties and there is a difference is they want to treat people that come across the border as criminals. They want to put them on trial, separate from the kids and treat them like they stole a car or something. Like regular criminals. Not as people seeking a better life. I think democrats have a more nuanced view of people coming into this country for a better life, especially those trying to escape hell on earth. Exactly. Think about the fact that many, many of them are the murder capital of the world is one of the places where people are fleeing to come to our exactly. Guatemala. Yes. You know, when small children risk losing their lives, unheard of violence, you can understand why people take this dangerous trek. But that doesnt mean they should be met with this despicable policy. Parents that cross the border without authorization bringing children, what should we do . Keep them together. And dont put them on trial . Wait, if theyre coming here for asylum or refugee status, there is a hearing that will take place for them to be able to present evidence that they ought to be asylum people and come into the country. And children can stay with them in that situation . Absolutely they should. I mean its just in humane that they dont. I agree with those who say that the children are being used as pawns. Pawns for a wall, pawns for whatever the president is seeking. This is not the first time. Think about that was happening with the dreamers. Is that what you hear . He thinks he can get the wallabee using this kids as kidnappees, holding on . Well keep the kids here until you agree to put a wall up . You know, certainly hes behaved like that before. In the dream act context. Even if you think about using children as pawns, think about the chip legislation that was held up long for childrens health. Yes. But in a larger budget debate. He was fighting for his wall. There is something that the president and the president alone needs to change. He can do it tonight if hes listening. Meanwhile, Homeland Security secretary neilsen said this today. There has been much outcry, consternation and misinformation from many in the press and congress and advocacy groups over the last few weeks that we at dhs are intentionally doing things that are unhumanitarian, cruel, immoral and disgraceful. We are doing none of those things. We are enforcing the laws passed by congress. It is important to note that these minors are very well taken care of. Dont believe the press. They are very well taken care of. Im joined by Texas Democratic congressman. He joined two facilities in brownsville, texas. I dont think it is the press versus the president. They want the daddy, their pappy. Congressman . Well, thats right, chris. We had an opportunity today to see the youngest victims of Donald Trumps brutal policy of separating young kids from their families. We saw what was called an infant room and one of the infants is 8 months old. He had been separated from his family for over a month. And there was another girl that was about a year old and she had been separated from her parents also. These kids, their parents are nowhere to be found. If you watched her today, she looked like a zombie denying reality on behalf of the president. There is a brutal policy and it has to stop. She said two Different Things which clashed into each other. One was this is policy. She wants you to change the policy. It doesnt make logical sense whatever your motions are in this thing. The president has the absolute ability to stop separating families. He is basically engage flg state sponsored child abuse to use that as leverage to vote for a boerd wall. He is treating the kids and behaving like this is a real estate deal where you put pressure on the other person by raising rents or negotiating over Square Footage or something. Hes doing that with the lives of kids. Let me ask you about something. Theyre letting the press see the older boys but not the younger boys or any of the young women, the girls. Are you able to ask the as a member of congress, can ask you to see how theyre treating the young boys and how theyre treating the girls . You are able to get through what they dont let the press see . We did. At one of the facilities, we did see young girls. But to be honest, the answer was still not very clear as to where all the girls are. Now that said, there are many contractors. This facility was run by southwest keys. There are many contractors that do this and many facilities. So its also possible that many of the girls were not at these two facilities. Sounds unlikely. Thank you so much, senator tammy baldwin. Thank you. Texas congressman, thank you sir. Roger stone, you know him. Previously denied, of course, having met with russians during the 2016 president ial campaign. Now he and another trump adviser Michael Caputo say they were in contact with the russian promising dirt on hillary. They all meet with these guys that have dirt. Michael caputo joins me after the break. We may be one of the worlds most familiar companies, but we make more than our name suggests. Were an organic tea company. A premium juice company. A Coconut Water company. Weve got drinks for long days. For birthdays. For turning over new leaves. And we make them for every moment in every corner of the country. We are the cocacola company, and were proud to offer so much more. Okay, so. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. And if they come out gross. She washes them again. So what does the dishwasher do . New cascade platinum lets your dishwasher be the dish washer. These new actionpacs unleash three different cleaning agents that dissolve food, lift it off, and rinse it away the first time. Wow thats clean and less work for my mom. New cascade platinum. Nothing cleans better. You might or joints. Hing for your heart. But do you take something for your brain. With an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brainhealth supplement in drug stores nationwide. Prevagen. The name to remember. I want to ask you directly if you had contacts with russians nationals during the campaign . First of all, i appreciate you having me here today to clear this up. The answer, chris, is categorically, no, i have no russian clients. I was not in touch with anyone in russia. I wasnt talking to anybody i believe to be interimmediate airy for the russians. I reiterate again, ive in no contacts or collusions with the russians. Welcome back to hardball. That is roger stone, of course. Categorically denying he had any contact with russians during the 2016 campaign. And now roger stone and another former Campaign AdviserMichael Caputo are reversing accounts saying they did have contact with one russians who was trying to sell them dirt on trumps 2016 opponent, Hillary Clinton. According to stones account to the Washington Post, he met with a man who called himself Henry Greenberg who offered damaginging information about Hillary Clinton. However, he didnt reveal the information he claimed to possess. Caputo said he spoke with greenberg by phone and arranged a meeting for stone. Text messages show that after the meeting caputo asked stone, how crazy is the russian . Stone said, he wants big money for the information. Waste of time. Caputo replied, the russian way. Anything at all interesting . And stone said, no. Neither disclosed that testimony. He said he had no contact with russians. I spent my time in front of the committee detailing the fact i had no contact with russians. I never heard of anyone in the Trump Campaign talking with russians. But i never was asked questions about my time in russia that i never seen spoke to anybody in russia. I never heard the word russia and we did not use russian dressing. They both said they forgot about the meetings until the text messages. They also say they were set up. Greenberg said he worked as an informant to the fbi. The post says there is no evidence that greenberg was working with the fbi in his interactions with stone. Im joined by Michael Caputo, the former trump Campaign Adviser. Of michael, if you were on a jury and someone said they forgot in the midst of this russian thing weve been talking about every night for the last couple years and didnt remember hearing from a guy who called himself Henry Greenberg, the name of an american baseball player with heavy russian 5 accent, you forgot you got the call and forgot you called roger stone after he had this meeting and forgot all three incidents and forgot them all under testimony and only when the memory was picked by something that in terms of texts that you remembered. Do you think youd believe such a claim . If i heard what you just said, i would say youre correct. There is two plinz minutes of m in 2016. I recalled it in preparation for the meeting with the senate Intelligence Committee on may 1st and the mueller meeting on may 2nd. Thats two years later. Two years later. Two years later, right. And mueller asked me the same question precisely that was asked of me at the house. In fact, the mueller investigator seemed to be reading it from my testimony, from my house testimony. He said the exact same question did any russian ever offer you any information about Hillary Clinton . I revealed immediately, yes, a man named Henry Greenberg came to me and offered me negative information about Hillary Clinton and yada yada and he was extremely disappointed that i answereded it with full disclosure which i have not done in front of the House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence in july of 2017. We then got into back and forth on this issue which made me believe very clearly that the mueller team knew exactly what went on in that meeting. After i left, i started an investigation which is up now at democratdossier. Org and proved that Henry Greenberg is not his name. He has four names. He worked as an fbi informant for 17 years. So tell me exactly the moment when it clicked on you that you had contact with this socalled self identified Henry Greenberg, the russian . Whether did it click on you, oh, yeah . Whether d when did that happen . When i was preparing for the senate and the two years later . The Mueller Investigation . Probably mid second week or early third week of april whether when i was preparing. In the midst of the talk of the russian influence, it did not jog your memory this memory, did not come to the surface of your mind even in preparing for sworn testimony of the House Intelligence Committee . It didnt occur to you that is something that happened . No, it didnt at all. First of all, it wasnt the only approach. Do you think roger stone forgot all those three incidents you had shared with him, the telling him about it, reaction from him, both you guys forgot it all. Indeed. In fact, roger didnt know until i reminded him whether i figured it out before my move to the mueller team on may 2 nnd. Roger had the same inability to remember. For me, it was total of two plinz minutes of my life. We were not reminded by the texts. The texts were presented to me after i disclosed the meeting. So that is categorically incorrect. Those texts are texts from rogers telephone. How they got ahold of rogers texts, i dont know. Whether yn you heard about t offer for 2 million you were going to get dirt on Hillary Clinton, it made sense. Hillary is the favorite. Why did you decide or roger decide it wasnt worth the money even if it would turn the election around if there was real dirt there like money coming from russia to hillary or Something Like that . I imagine thats what they were selling. Something to do with finance. What else could they be selling . According to the Washington Post, this Henry Greenberg, hes got four different names, none are the birth name, he told the Washington Post he was offering information from ukrainian friend who was employed by the Clinton Foundation and fired and angry and had damming information. Thats what he told the Washington Post. I never heard this in the conversation. I would find that alluring as well. Do you think you broke the law . First of all, chris, i didnt hear any of this at all. I didnt hear anything about money being 2 million. If you read the text thaended the whole thing with me and roger, it is about big money. I didnt know about 2. I didnt know about ukraine. As far as i know, nobody knew about ukraine until Henry Greenberg talked to the Washington Post last week. Were you aware at the time that taking something from a value from another country would be illegal . Did you sense even then do you sense even now it would be illegal to take dirt which has Campaign Value from another country . Well, first of all, Henry Greenberg is an individual not a nation. If he was representing any nation, he was representing the federal bureau of investigations because he worked for 17 years as an fbi informant. But in addition, at the same time, it doesnt matter if it is a frenchka fladian that called me, a german that called me. At the time, late may, nobodys antenna was up about russia. I wouldnt have even crossed mind. Fit was coming from a government, i would report it to the general counsel immediately. But it wasnt a government. It was a crack pot as far as roger figured out. We figured out later after i got really interested in the questioning that proved that the Mueller Investigation knew more about it than me, when i proved its up at democratdossier. Org, hes been an fbi informant for 17 years. You said that. When was working on a lunch break when he met with roger, well have to find out. He was no longer an agent for the fbi. How many how do we know that . We dont flow that. We dont know that. He filed an affidavit with ins court in california that he swore under oath that he was an fbi informant for 17 years. Chris, hes an illegal alien. Only in this country on an fbi informant visa. Why is he still here . You have your own credibility problems here. I wouldnt be shooting air rows at anyone else because whether you forget you had a russian connection for two years, thats astounldi astoun astounding to people. With an fbi informant. Why didnt you bring it to the countrys attention two years ago . Shouldnt the country know you were dealing with the russians . We werent dealing with the russians. We were dealing with a guy from Henry Greenberg from russia. You were trying to get to roger. Nobody got listen, chris. Heres the situation. You got him on the phone with roger. Listen. I know youre fixed on whether or not roger and i were honest to the House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence. I know thats where msnbc is fixed right now. The House Intelligence Committee is as well. There was no illegal exposure. We have no criminal exposure. We fulfilled our commitment and responsibility. Thats a fact. But what i want to know is why you dont care if an fbi informant who was a violent russian criminal was sent into a white color investigation by james comey . Thats the question we need answered. You know why . This whole thing youre coming out with at this convenient time two years later, the whole thing youre doing smacks of john teen and the nixon coverup. Why is it it is way late. Why is any of this convenient to me . Because youre going to make the case that you were used. Why is this convenient to me . I let you make the statement twice. You said you were set up. Because its part of a setup scenario. I think it is a glance. You said scenario twice. I know what youre doing. Can you we have a delay here pare here apparently. I know im getting interrupted. What you would like me to answer now . You already told me you remember all this two years late. Thank you Michael Caputo. Good luck with your setup story. I hope you you heard that. So convenient. Two years later they remember and they establish this and they put this together. And the defense is they forgot. Henry greenberg seld i have dirt on hill rich. He had had a conversation. He seld it was toofaid it was t. In caputos defense, it seems like they did forget. The reason for that is he told the house intelligence kmlt committee he didnt remember. More importantly, they corrected the record tlachlt is significant. That said, this seems like it should have been a pretty memorable interaction. Anyone that would come to you two years later they bring along this little kite spring. Oh, yeah, by the way, it was all a setup. They didnt even remember it for two years. Now they remember it. It was a setup. How did this clever memory not only came back to them, but they the defense of it came back to them. Probably because of the spy gate story. People on the right have been pushing really lard for this notion. There is a web of informants and the fbi was engage flg waing in that were orwellian. The fact theyre coming forward and Michael Caputo is nice to come on the show to tell me it is part of a positive pr campaign. Betsy, thank you. Up next, hardball roundtable weighs in on the fight at the border. And a warning from a member of congress. He says everyone in the party says that President Trump lies all the time. And that republicans will pay the price for refusing to do something about it. Well, you know, joe walsh said other things over the years. Youre watching hardball. Its Pretty Amazing out there. The world is full of more possibilities than ever before. 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You can get comfortable doing the same with yours. Preparation h. Get comfortable with it. Welcome back. Amid the growing uproar over the separation of children from their parents at the border, the department of home land security secretary neilsen today continued to say that will is no such policy. Lets watch her. Its not a policy. Our policy at dhs is to do what were sworn to do which is to enforce the law. Well, lets bring in the hardball roundtable for that one. Chris wilson is a republican pollster and jose muno is a democratic strategist. Jose, youre up. So what do you think of this thing . These kids are apparently hiding the girls. Theyre hiding the young boys. Theyre showing the older boys. But it sounds awful. The crying on the tapes are brutal. This is horrible. Were talking about 2,000 children, some of them girls who have been separated from their family. Literally, at the expense of President Trump trying to get the obsession you see that picture of the kid in the red shirt. Horrible. That picture grabs you. I know. The president can literally pick up the phone, call dhs, call Jeff Sessions and the department of justice and say stop the separations. We dont need to use 2,000 children as literally negotiation clips hips. Ted cruz is the most liberal voice ive heard. Ted cruz wants to change this policy. He introduced legislation tonight to fix this. I think it is has a real opportunity for bipartisan support and it could have it fixed within a week. Hopefully we can see people come together. Does that tell thought politics are not working in the president s favor that ted cruz is to the right of him . I think this is a matter of something just needs to be fixed. You make my point. I think that this is a policy thats both political and cultural. Remember that President Trump built his campaign on immigrants and rapists. And today he called them thieves. Theres this idea dont they look like rapists or thieves. People surrounding the president , including Stephen Miller and steve bannon from the outside thought they could put this policy in place and people would go one step further and say mexicans are rapists and criminals and we should separate the families. Chris, do you think steve miller is having a good day at the white house . Look at these kids. Senator john mccain tweeted and called the policy of separating children an affront to the decency of the American People and controversy on the values our nation was founded. Thats hes in bad shape too. Lets talk about this about what happened with joe walsh. The members of the house where he served for a while all believed the president lies all the time. Hell of a statement, any way. They all believe hes a liar. Incredible statement. I covered capitol hill. There are a lot of when you talk to republicans off the record, a lot of you give you this link, we know he messes with the truth. We understand this is a lie. We cant say it out loud because were scared of our district. Im a little uncomfortable with us making joe walsh the final arbiter of whos telling the truth and who doesnt. Theres a reason hes no longer in congress. Joe walsh doesnt have any idea what donald trump says or who he is you dont think the back room chatter im not talking about that. Us using joe walsh i doubt he has many friends. I think he does for the most part. If he shows up and comes to congress and talks to them as he has recently, that is something that still means something. Its important to them. My reporting tells me that republicans are very wary of this president. They dont trust him. Theres this idea that he could force them into pushing for a policy they dont like. He doesnt have any relationship with the president that makes them feel like they can trust them. I get a sense that its coming to a very divided state. I dont think theres an easy ad adjudication of all this stuff. I dont think its going to be simple. Jose . I think well have a fight that goes on. It wont be settled by a simple vote of impeachment. I think the president with this issue has found the sensitive, human piece of it that i think is going to change some sides but most of its ideological warfare. I agree 100 . With the whole russia investigation it is going to go well until the midterms. Were going to continue to talk about this day after day. The president of the United States currently, president of the United States of america, we have to really just think about that for a second, lies on a daily basis, every single day. He gets to pardon on a daily basis. Its unbelievable. Heres Rudy Giuliani today just throwing out the idea, hell pardon when the time comes. This is how the country will stay divide it. Youve got a smattering of pardons out there. The country will just be more divided. The president has signaled through the parties hes already done that hes open to pardoning on political reasons. Ill say this, we always talk on this show about democrats getting their message, how will they get it together . Kids being separated from their families could be the thing that gets democrats to actually say, this is what were going to unite on. More than parkland. In some ways. They dont have to fight the nra on this one. Well be right back after this. Or psoriatic arthritis, Little Things can be a big deal. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not an injection or a cream. Its a pill that treats differently. For psoriasis, 75 clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. And for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. And the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. Dont use if youre allergic to otezla. Otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. Tell your doctor if these occur. Otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. Tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. Some people taking otezla reported weight loss. Your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. Other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. Tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if youre pregnant or planning to be. Otezla. Show more of you. Billions of problems. Morning breath . Garlic breath . Stinky breath . Theres a therabreath for you. Therabreath fresh breath oral rinse instantly fights all types of bad breath and works for 24 hours. So you can. Breathe easy. Theres therabreath at walmart. A hilton getaway means you get more because. You get another day in paradise. Get a sunset on a sunday. Get more stories to share. Get more from your Summer Getaway with exclusive hilton offers. Book yours, only at hilton. Com this was a big weekend for our family. Carolyn matthews, our daughter was awarded a graduate degree in business from stanford university. It came within just weeks of her earning a graduate degree in Public Affairs from harvard. Carolyn, continues to overwhelm kathleen and i with her achievements. We could not be more proud, obviously. Well be right back. [ roar ] [ heavy breathing ] [ scream ] rated pg13. Woman it felt great not having hepatitis c. Its like a load off my shoulders. I was just excited for it to be over. Harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. Its been prescribed to more than a quarter Million People and is proven to cure up to 99 of patients who have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. 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This leaves their children detained elsewhere. Theres a larger reality which everyone in the country fully understands. These families crossing into this country without authorization are desperate. Do desperate human beings seeking a better life, any obstacle is cruel. That includes a national border. The question we in america face is how to set a National Immigration policy which by the fact of it is going to cause a certain amount of cruelty to limit that cruelty. Perhaps we cannot prevent this world from being a world in which children are tortured but we can reduce the number of tortured children. If you dont help us, who else in the world can help us do this . Thats hard ball for now. And it really is. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in. They could be murderers and thieves and so much else. A moral crisis in america. The president has the ability to stop this if hed like. Thousands of children taken from their parents at the border. This is a jail. As the white house defends their horrific policy. Theyre not put in jail, of course. Theyre taken care of. Tonight, the ever changing