Transcripts For MSNBCW The 11th Hour With Brian Williams 20180919

Says her client wants an fbi investigation before she will testify about her accusation in public, before the Senate Judiciary committee. That hearing, as you know, is scheduled to take place on monday. We have veterans of the fbi and Justice Departments standing by to weigh in on this, but first, here is a part of the letter sent by fords attorney to Judiciary Committee chair Chuck Grassley of iowa, just tonight. In it, it says, in the 36 hours since her name became public, dr. Ford has received a stunning amount of support from her community and from fellow citizens across our country. At the same time, however, her worst fears have materialized. Shes been the target of vicious harassment and even death threats. As a result of these kinds of threats, her family was forced to relocate out of their home. Her email has been backed and she has been impersonated online. The attorney goes on to write, while dr. Fords life was being turned upsidedown, you and your staff scheduled a public hearing for her to testify at the same table as judge kavanaugh in front of two dozen u. S. Senators on National Television to relive this traumatic and harrowing incident. The hearing was scheduled for six short days from today and would include interrogation by senators who appear to have made up their minds that she is, quote, mistaken and mixed up. Dr. Ford wants to cooperate with the committee and with Law Enforcement officials. As the Judiciary Committee has recognized and done before, an fbi investigation of the incident should be the first step in addressing her allegations. That reference, by the way, to mixed up, is a direct quote from senator orrin hatch. Do you think that any of these claims are legitimate . No, i dont. I think this woman, whoever she is, is mixed up. And, but i cant speak for her. All i can say is, no, i dont. I know the judge very, very well. I know how honest he is. Earlier tonight, one of fords attorneys was interviewed on cnn. What were seeing is there should be an investigation because thats the right thing to do. If theres not an investigation, would she appear on monday . She is prepared to cooperate with the committee and with any Law Enforcement investigation. And that has been her position and it continues to be her position. So she will cooperate with the committee in whatever form that takes and it remains to be seen. We have to talk with senator grassleys office and the other Committee Members to determine what form that will take. Its premature to talk about a hearing on monday, and i think people understand that because she has been dealing with the threats, the harassment, and the safety of her family. And thats what shes been focused on for the last two days and will continue to be focused on that. If they care about doing the right thing here, and treating this seriously as they have said, then they will do the right thing and they will properly investigate this and she will work with them in that investigation and also to share her story with the committee. However that happens. Senator Dianne Feinstein who is the top democrat on the committee issued a statement that reads in part, i agree with her 100 that the rushed process to hold a hearing on monday has been unfair and is reminiscent of the treatment of anita hill. I also agree that we need the facts before senators, not staff or lawyers, speak to witnesses. We should honor dr. Blasey fords wishes and delay this hearing. A proper investigation must be completed. Witnesses interviewed. Evidence reviewed and all sides spoken to. Only then should the chairman set a hearing date. But within the past hour, the chairman of that committee, Chuck Grassley of iowa, issued this statement. We have offered dr. Ford the opportunity to share her story with the committee as her attorneys said yesterday she was willing to do. We offered her a public or a private hearing as well as staffled interviews, whichever makes her most comfortable. The invitation for monday still stands. Grassley goes on to say this, dr. Fords testimony would reflect her person knowledge and memory of events. Nothing the fbi or any other investigator does would have any bearing on what dr. Ford tells the committee so there is no reason for any further delay. Earlier this evening, before we learned of Christine Blasey fords request for an fbi investigation, senator Lindsey Graham indicated there would be no delay in confirming judge kavanaugh. If she does not want to come monday, publicly or privately, were going to move on and vote wednesday. And today, President Trump offered up his thoughts on the need for an fbi investigation before any new hearing, while also reaffirming his support and sympathy for this nominee. Ask the fbi to open its file . How important i dont think the fbi really should be involved because they dont want to be involved. If they wanted to be, i would certainly do that, but as you know, they say this is not really their thing. Now, they have done, supposedly, six background checks over the years as judge kavanaugh has gone beautifully up a ladder. Hes an incredible individual. Great intellect. Great judge. Impeccable history in every way. In every way. I feel so badly for him that hes going through this. To be honest with you. I feel so badly for him. This is not a man that deserves this. On that note, lets bring in our leadoff panel on a tuesday night. Philip rucker, White House Bureau chief for the Washington Post. Ashley parker, White House Reporter for the Washington Post. Both are recent Pulitzer Prize winners for their work. Also back with us is maya wiley, former assistant u. S. Attorney for the Southern District of new york. Currently a professor at the news school here in new york. And counselor, id like to begin with you because this is chiefly a legal, yes, a political matter. As apolitically as you can, could you make a case for not investigating . Would you put a witness on the stand absent the underpinning facts . I cant make any neutral legal argument for not investigating serious allegations of an attempted rape. I mean, particularly for someone whos facing the possibility of being in one of the nations most powerful positions. Let me tell you why, just to be clear. It doesnt matter whether or not you believe based on the news reports that you heard if youre a senator on the Judiciary Committee who you believe, Brett Kavanaugh or professor ford. What matters is you recognize you have two people, each of whom have very different accounting of what happened, and that is smart of the reason why you have fbi background checks for significant and important positions in federal government. The only way you even know what questions to ask, someone whos going to come forward and tell you a story of their experience of an incident, is because you have had an investigation by trained investigators who go and talk to everyone including people who may be able to identify other people who are witnesses who may have been at the party. Who may be able to identify which party it was. Who might be able to shed greater light. If you are senator collins, for example, who says, look, if brett, judge kavanaugh, if Brett Kavanaugh has lied, thats the end of this for me. How will you know . You already know what they each say. The only way you will know is if you get investigators to go and get additional evidence including the fact that you have her therapist who from 2012 has said, yes, she told me basically the same story before judge kavanaugh was up for Supreme Court nomination. Thats something that merits investigation. So devils advocate, when grassley says no amount of fbi investigation is going to change the story you have to tell this committee, why cant you come and do it on monday . Your response . My response is you cant figure out which questions you should ask the witness. Can you imagine having a trial, brian, where a lawyer is told just go ahead and let the witness talk, even though you dont know anything about what the witness can say and, therefore, you cant come back and cross examine the witness. If youre actually the senator who wants to say im not sure i believe her, then dont you want to get all the information you possibly can that would enable you to ask the right questions . The same is true for those who believe her and have questions for the judge. For judge kavanaugh. Which is you have to know what youre going to ask. You never base a witness testimony only on the witness, him or herself. You always have additional information. Thats always the way its done and thats why you have a background process and if you have new information that comes forward, you want to get additional background. Ashley parker, two questions to start you off. Is there a plan b in the west wing, and how tied is the president to this nominee . So right now, everyone inside the white house and a number of republicans on capitol hill tell us that there is not really an official plan b and they are truly not talking about thinking of pulling judge kavanaughs nomination right now. Thats certainly not the case. I will say, however, that people in the president s orbit privately concede that if at any point this looks like it is politically not expedient for President Trump, that it is really going to go against his selfinterest, that the president is more than willing to sort of cut Brett Kavanaugh loose and go with someone else. You have to remember that this is a president who often demands extreme loyalty but doesnt return it in kind. Especially as someone like judge kavanaugh, he doesnt have a deep sense of loyalty to him. He doesnt have a deeper abiding personal relationship. This was someone who has pushed on him by white House Counsel don mcgahn. When you talk about a plan b, remember, there is that list of other judges who they thought who conservatives thought would be a good choice for the Supreme Court. And so the president does stand ready if he thinks he could get someone else in who would be, you know, heralded by the conservative base. Hes more than happy to replace justice kavanaugh, judge kavanaugh, with that person although, again, right now thats not really being discussed in any real way. Phil rucker, a question absent snark. The question is, which optic is worse . The hearing going on on monday and on the republican side, 11 exclusively white males conducting the questioning. Or the hearing not going as planned on monday and the vote goes through anyway and her story, her direct testimony, doesnt get heard because she has requested an investigation. Brian, both options are just so treacherous for the Republican Party. Remember, were only seven weeks away from the midterm elections where the polling indicates that democrats have a big advantage in momentum and enthusiasm and that could get even worse for the republicans if theres a huge sort of moment that angers, especially women voters in the country at that hearing on monday. You played in the opening of the show the clip from senator orrin hatch trying to discredit this accuser without even saying her name. Dr. Ford. Hes not met dr. Ford. Hes not heard her story other than reading the news reports and hes already concluded that she must be mixed up and that her allegations are not true. If you see that in that hearing live from all 11 of those republican male senators, that could be a real political problem for the Republican Party which already is struggling to hold on in some of these suburban house districts that are going to decide which party ends up winning control of the house of representatives. Maya, to your point earlier, we know what we know so far, and there are limits on that, but we believe theres only one other witness. This gentleman named mark judge who was in the room, its alleged, during the alleged incident. He wrote the committee today and says in part, i have no memory of the alleged incident. Brett kavanaugh and i were friends in high school but i do not recall the party described in dr. Fords letter. I never saw brett act in the manner dr. Ford describes. I have no more information to offer the committee, and i do not wish to speak publicly regarding the incidents described in dr. Fords letter. Again, apolitically, question to you, do you subpoena his testimony . Do you take no for an answer . You definitely subpoena his testimony because hes an identified witness. And you definitely want him to come and speak on the record under oath and say that he does not remember. And if he doesnt remember, why is he concerned about talking about it . Because theres nothing to talk about from his perspective. So its a bit perplexing to hear that you dont remember and you dont want to talk about it. You just said you had nothing to talk about. So the only conclusion to draw is that theres some reason he doesnt want to speak on the record under oath and i think that is a big problem not just for him, but for judge kavanaugh because if his corroborating witness is essentially saying i dont remember and i wont say i dont remember, that doesnt help him. Right . And i think if youre on the senate side, i actually want to go back to a point that ashley made, at the end of the day, the issue isnt whether or not theres a vacancy that a sitting president can fill, and i have questions about whether from a political standpoint and from a constitutional standpoint you should let a sitting president whos under federal investigation actually appoint a Supreme Court justice that may rule on that. But put that aside, if the only issue here is whether or not we allow the time it takes to make sure that one of the most powerful government positions in the country is sufficiently vetted, is sufficiently that no stone goes unturned, as to the character of someone who will have tremendous power and its really important to me to remind everyone that rape and attempted rape is actually a crime of power, not of sex. Its an abuse of power. Think about that when were talking about the highest most powerful judicial position in the land. Even one that has the ability to say to a sitting president or sitting elected officials whether or not they have the power to act on something. You definitely want to make sure you have someone with the fullest integrity. This is not a criminal trial. This is a this is a process of understanding the character as well as the competence and intelligence of the person youre going to put on the bench. This requires a full vet. So, ashley, to your other point that there is plan a and plan a so far, it appears based on reporting that judge kavanaugh was in the white house for a long day again today and over in the executive office building, the term of art is murder boards. There was something of a murder board, kind of a mock hearing to throw at him any and all uncomfortable questions they could think of to prepare him for monday. There sure was. And to the white houses credit, our understanding is that theyre also doing what they should do which is their due diligence. They understand that hes made very clear he wants to fight this and their Natural Inclination as always as led by this president is to fight, is to double down, but before theyre going to back him. You notice they made him put a lot of the stuff in his own words and the president has been sort of muted in his defense of judge kavanaugh. But they want to make sure that theres nothing else about his dating history, his interactions with women, anything else that happened in high school, anything else that happened going forward, for their own sake, for their own protection, and then, of course, as you said, as murder boards to make sure that if and when there is that public testimony, that public hearing, that he is prepared because as they say at the end of the day, a lot of people in the white house believe and it may shape up to be this way that its going to be a question of credibility. Its going to be he said she said and want to make sure hes prepared to present his best possible defense in public. Phil, just when i thought you and ashley could not work harder or more hours per day, along comes this story. I know youve been working it. So i ask, if not this nominee, then who, and when . Because were down, as you mentioned, 49 days away from the midterms. Yeah, its a good question, brian. I think certainly, if kavanaughs nomination is pulled, if he were to withdraw, the president , the white house, would immediately turn to that list that was made public in the campaign and expanded early on in the presidency for replacement. There were a few judges who were on the short list behind kavanaugh that would get consideration. But i think the key player in all of this is probably going to end up being Senate Majority leader mitch mcconnell. Kavanaugh was not mcconnells first choice for trumps pick, but trump went ahead and nominated kavanaugh, anyhow. Mcconnell got behind the nomination and has been pushing it through. I think if this nomination were to fail, mcconnell would seize an opportunity to step in and say let me take control of this process, this is all about senate votes. Its about can you get the 50 plus 1 majority in the United States senate to back a nominee . And mcconnell knows his members much better than the white house does. Hes good evening to know who senator collins, senator murkowski, senator flake, who theyre going to support. And i think mcconnell is going to try to make the power play to help drive this process. In terms of the timing, the midterms are coming up. Its very difficult to see how theyd be able to get through an entire vetting and nomination process to vote before the midterm elections and then that raises the question of whether they would do this all in the lame duck session which would be in late november and in december before the new senate is sworn in january. All this was just today. What a day its been yet again. Our great thanks to our big three starting us off on a tuesday night. To maya wiley, phil rucker, to ashley parker. Really appreciate it. Coming up, were going to ask two former Justice Department officials about the fbi investigating the kavanaugh case and about the president choosing to declassify documents related to the russia investigation of his own administration. And later, the Trump Legal Team said to be working in the dark when it comes to the investigation we mentioned. The 11th hour just Getting Started on a busy tuesday night. Cancer. Its very personal. Each of us is different. And each cancer is different. How it reacts, how it evades and adapts. And how we attack it. Thats why at Cancer Treatment centers of america, we use diagnostic tools that help us better understand what drives each persons cancer. This is what we mean by outsmarting cancer. And for some, it may uncover more effective treatment options. Like christine bray. After battling Ovarian Cancer for several years, her test results revealed a potential treatment not considered previously a drug therapy that targeted her tumor. Today, christines metastatic cancer is in remission. This is precision Cancer Treatment. Because at Cancer Treatment centers of america. Were not just fighting cancer. Were outsmarting it. Visit cancercenter. Com and schedule an appointment with our cancer care specialists today. What would be the problem with the fbi reopening their Background Investigation into judge kavanaugh . Would you support such a thing . It wouldnt bother me other than the fbi, john, said that they really dont do that. Thats not what they do. President trump today suggesting the fbi shouldnt get involved in the new judge Kavanaugh Investigation because the agency doesnt want to. The president insisting its not really their thing. Yet, the president has directed the fbi along with the department of justice and director of National Intelligence to declassify Sensitive Information related to the ongoing russia investigation of his administration. In an interview with the hill today, the president says it will be viewed as a, quote, crowning achievement of his presidency because it will, quote, expose something that is truly a cancer in our country. Here to talk about all of it, chuck rosenberg, a former u. S. Attorney and former senior official at the fbi, and matthew miller, former chief spokesman for the department of justice. Chuck, not the first time i asked you to fact check the president , likely wont be the last. When the president says this isnt their kind of thing, and they really dont want to do it, what should we think . We should take a look at the letter, i, brian, in fbi, because it actually stands for investigation. This is precisely their thing. This is what they do every day around the country and around the world. They do investigations. But the way it works here, theres a protocol. This is not their first rodeo. This is not their first Background Investigation. They pass along information to the white house on mr. Kavanaugh. If the white house wants more information, all they have to do is ask. It is literally that simple. They ask the fbi to do more interviews, to collect more information, to do an investigation and the fbi does it. So the president , brian, in a shocking development, is wrong. Matt, the president doesnt want the fbi involved here. He would very much like the fbi to reveal formally Confidential Communications that could reveal sources and methods, conceivably. Yeah, its a bit ironic after a year and a half the president making repeated inappropriate demands of the fbi, one thing he wont ask them to do is investigate allegations of sexual assault. At the same time as you point out, hes taking this step using the powers of the presidency to advance his personal interests. What hes doing with declassifying this information. You have to go back to the fact that this fisa application into carter page has already gone through declassification review, and the National Security professionals at the Justice Department, at the fbi, have determined that the 21 pages that they held back, some in total, some partially, were held back because releasing that information would compromise sources and methods or jeopardize ongoing investigations. The president is swooping in after the fact, it will aid his personal campaign against the fbi and his legal teams campaign against the fbi all to try to undermine the investigation. Its kind the worst abuse of power possible to use your official powers to advance your personal interests. Chuck, how much of your lifes work of this order by the president go against . How red a line does it cross, in your view, that hes releasing material germane to the investigation into his administration . Its enormously perplexing and damaging and disheartening, brian. Look, theres an immediate danger to the case. To this particular case and to the investigation that matt miller is talking about but theres also a longterm institutional damage. For instance, we share information, intelligence information, with allies around the world. Including our closest allies. The uk, the canadians, the australians, new zealand. We have informationsharing protocols and now suddenly, our allies, our best allies in the intelligence world, see us dumping information into the public sphere for partisan political reasons. And so how likely are they to trust us in the future with the most important stuff they have . And the answer is, not very likely. So theres damage to the immediate case and theres damage to our longterm institutional interests as part of a larger intelligence community. Very disheartening, brian. Matt, if you had to reach, could you make a case that any part of the public good, the public interest, is served by lifting the veil on any of these communications . You know, i think you could make the case that the fisa, you know, the entire fisa process does deserve some added measure of transparency. You know, i dont think the president is making a goodfaith case here. You kind of have to remove him from the process because his motives have been pretty transparent from the beginning. There were advocates at the aclu saying there ought to be more transparency around fisa applications. This particular fisa application has already been reviewed to redact the most Sensitive Information, and what could be made public has been made public. Its the first time in history that happened and it only happened because the president declassified that nunes memo back in february that related to this application. He kind of started this process in motion way back then. So while i think you can make an argument for some general transparency, number one, thats clearly not what the president s after here. I think its very disingenuous for him to claim that as he did in the interview you showed. Number two, with this particular one, they have already scrubbed this and released everything they can. The stuff thats left is really the crown jewel information that shouldnt be made public under any circumstances. And that is why we wanted to hear from these two returning veterans on these topics, specifically. Chuck rosenberg, matt miller, gentlemen, thank you both very much for coming on. And coming up, the new report that says early missteps by the president s personal lawyers have left his current defense team partially in the dark. Hh i can breathe again ughh vicks sinex. Breathe on. Unmotivated . Feeling like you cant keep up . Maybe youre tired of the same old workout. Then you need aaptiv. Aaptiv offers incredibly motivating musicdriven workouts led by the worlds best trainers. Plus our classes are audio only, so you dont have to stare at a screen while youre trying to work out. We have music from amazing artists like britney spears, calvin harris, Meghan Trainor and dj khaled. Youll find classes for everything. From running, to strength training, to meditation, to yoga. We even have programs like weight loss or 5k training. You can work out at the gym, at home, or even outdoors. Aaptiv real trainers, real music, real workouts. Try aaptiv free for 30 days. Visit aaptiv. Com to start your free trial. Im April Kennedy and im an arborist with pg e in the sierras. Since the onset of the drought, more than 129 Million Trees have died in california. Pg e prunes and removes over a Million Trees every year to ensure that hazardous trees cant impact power lines. And since the onset of the drought weve doubled our efforts. I grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly its heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. What guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. Today, lifechanging technology from abbott is helping hunt them down at their source. Because the faster we can identify new viruses, the faster we can get to stopping them. The most personal technology, is technology with the power to change your life. Life. To the fullest. We mentioned this earlier, New York Times report today paints a picture of a Trump Legal Team struggling to find a strategy in real time as the president s troubles close in. Trumps roster of attorneys has been in flux, notably with the departures of john dowd and ty cobb earlier this year, and the impending departure of white House Counsel don mcgahn this fall. Trump now has lawyers based mostly in washington and new york, and according to that times report by our friends, haberman and schmidt, the expanding legal team is struggling to understand where the investigations could be headed and the extent of mr. Trumps legal exposure. The report cites a dozen people close to the president who add these details. The lawyers have only a limited sense of what many witnesses including Senior Administration officials and the president s Business Associates have told investigators and what the Justice Department plans to do with any incriminating information it has about mr. Trump. It goes on to say, it is not clear if mr. Trump has given his lawyers a full account of some key events in which he has been involved as president or during his decades running the trump organization. We thought we would talk about this tonight with richard painter, a veteran attorney and the former west wing ethics lawyer in the bush 43 white house. Richard, what struck you most in reading this article today . Well, the white house is in complete chaos. They have a lot of lawyers running around. Some of the lawyers are better than others. The president has some very good lawyers working for him. Such as emmet flood. But the problem here is the client. He will not always be truthful with his lawyers. He is very untruthful with the american people. He repeatedly undermines his own fbi and hes been engaging in obstruction of justice repeatedly. He lies, and thats a very difficult client to represent for any lawyer, no matter how good a lawyer you are, and then hes tweeting all the time on top of it. So the problem goes back to the president. Hes out of control. Some people are clearly trying to say john dowd did not do his due diligence. I dont know if theyre arguing legal malpractice, but perhaps you can tell us, is it legal and proper for john dowd to go up to a hope hicks who has just emerged from her session with mueller and say, what did they ask you . What did you tell them . Is a hope hicks, im just choosing her on a list of witnesses, is she under any orders from the feds not to share what was asked and what was answered . I have no idea what her arrangement is with the feds, but to go up to a witness like that, Start Talking to the witness and asking the witness what the witness said to the investigators is an invitation for trouble because youre going to get accused of trying to either intimidate the witness or change the witness testimony or change your testimony to your clients testimony to match that of the witness. So thats not a very smart move at all for a criminal defense lawyer. Not smart at all. I want to play for you a piece of videotape that surfaced today. This is federal judge kavanaugh speaking at Catholic University in washington. This is 2015. Well talk about it on the other side. Fortunately, we had a good saying that weve held firm to to this day as the dean was reminding me before before the talk, which is what happens at Georgetown Prep stays at Georgetown Prep. So, richard, obviously, Georgetown Prep, the allboys Catholic High School he attended, which is germane and in the news because of the accusation, this kind of thing does not help. What do you make of the state of play and this upcoming hearing on monday and whether or not there should be an fbi investigation . Well, when he gave that speech, he was a little old i would think to be making jokes about, you know, what was going on back at the Georgetown Prep. We all know about that. You know, the sex, drugs and boozing. You know, its really not an appropriate thing for him to say. And i think it indicates what he knew what was going on back then. Its all in his friend, mark judges, book called wasted. None of this is very impressive. Of course, the fbi should investigate. Thats the fbis job. Thats what the fbi did for the Bush White House. I worked in the Bush White House on dozens and dozens of nominations for senateconfirmed positions including two United States Supreme Court justices. There was always an fbi investigation. An issue comes up last minute, you get the fbi to investigate it again. They can do that very promptly and thats what you need to do. And, you know, President Trump doesnt know what hes talking about if he says this isnt what the fbi does. They do it all the time. We had a roomful of files with information based on fbi investigations of president ial nominees for senateconfirmed positions. So its time for the fbi to get to work, take them a week or so, then they can have the hearing. But they shouldnt haul in dr. Ford and other witnesses without the fbi investigation first. That makes absolutely no sense. Richard painter was the ethics lawyer in the bush 43 white house. Always a pleasure having you on. Thank you very much. And coming up for us, a leading president ial historian will tell us just how big a moment we might be heading into. Doris Kearns Goodwin is in our studio after this. man managing my type 2 diabetes wasnt my top priority. Until i held her. I found my tresiba® reason. Now im doing more to lower my a1c. I take tresiba® once a day. Tresiba® controls blood sugar for 24 hours for powerful a1c reduction. woman wed been counting down to his retirement. It was our tresiba® reason. He needs insulin to control his high blood sugar and, at his age, hes at greater risk for low blood sugar. Tresiba® releases slow and steady and works all day and night like the bodys insulin. vo tresiba® is a longacting insulin used to control high blood sugar in adults with diabetes. Dont use tresiba® to treat diabetic ketoacidosis, during episodes of low blood sugar, or if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. Dont share needles or insulin pens. Dont reuse needles. The most common side effect is low blood sugar, which may cause dizziness, sweating, confusion, and headache. Check your blood sugar. Low blood sugar can be serious and may be lifethreatening. Injection site reactions may occur. Tell your prescriber about all medicines you take and all your medical conditions. Taking tzds with insulins like tresiba® may cause serious side effects like heart failure. Your insulin dose shouldnt be changed without asking your prescriber. Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing, fast heartbeat, extreme drowsiness, swelling of your face, tongue or throat, dizziness or confusion. man i found my tresiba® reason. Find yours. vo ask your Health Care Provider about tresiba®. Covered by most commercial Health Insurance and Medicare Part d plans. The drums mean were back. Lets talk about what may be approaching. Lets talk about other times its been this bad and worse and how other president s have led us as a nation. With doris Kearns Goodwin, president ial historian and author here with us in new york. And heres why. Shes written bestsellers about both roosevelts, the kennedys, lbj and lincoln, but her new book which is very relevant to the times were living through is called leadership in Turbulent Times showing doris always had good taste in a book title. There it is, welcome to you. Its good to see you. Thank you. How big a moment does it feel like you to youre heading into right now . I think its really big because whats really at issue right now is trust in our institutions. And if we dont trust in the senate and how its going to produce this process of confirming a Supreme Court nominee, one of the most important things it has to do as an institution, and we think its being done in a partisan way, only 11 of the people trust in the congress right now. 78 disapprove of the congress. Only 37 of the people approve of the presidency right now. If we dont get a presidency and a congress, an institution and a Supreme Court now that we can trust in, what happens in a democracy . Thats what really worries me. I have some numbers to put on the screen. Id like to leave them up for people to really see them and take them in. This is confirmation votes of just the modern era. This goes back to bush 41. Souter was confirmed 909. Ginsburg, 963. Look at roberts. The chief justice, 7822. What happened to that . Because everything is now, as they say, a knife fight. Once upon a time there was really pride in being a senator. I mean, i think about 1964 and the Senate Republicans went along with the northern democrats to pass that civil rights bill because they had pride in the senate. They knew it was important for this institution. You used to be a senator. It was a great thing to be. Now you all want to be president , you want to be on television. Your partisanship is more important than your colleagues in the senate. They look at one another in tribal ways. They dont play poker together, dont drink together, they dont form friendships together. Something happened to these institutions which is tearing us apart. In a democracy, you have to the colleagueship, believe in what youre doing and feel the sense of fulfillment that they once did. So much of your book is inspirational without you setting out to be inspirational because we see these examples. You also remind us its been real bad before. I think we really need that reassurance because a lot of people will come up to me and theyll say, is this the worst of times were living in . And it certainly is not. Weve gotten through tougher times before. I mean, think about lincoln. He comes in, the country is split apart. War thats going to kill 600,000 people is about to begin. He said if he ever thought he was going to live through that situation, he must have thought he could make it through. Think of fdr, he comes in, the banks have collapsed. People are lining up to get their deposits out of the banks. People are unemployed. Theyre starving in the streets. He says the whole house of cards might collapse before i even get here, but we had leadership in those times. We had citizens that believed in those leaders and we got through those times. Theyre worse than now. Whats the problem now is an absence of leadership. Theres a sense of lost moorings and anxiety because we dont feel were working together toward the common goals of fixing our problems. The citizenry is feeling a sense of loss. Even fdr thought it was important for the public to see him on a cold, rainy day parade through the boroughs in this city and hedid it at the possible expense to his health because he knew the power of a gesture. Absolutely. In that last year, his health was bad. He had a congestive heart failure. He knew there were whispers about his health. So he goes out on the street and they say the champ is back, hes there all day in the rain. He slips into eleanors apartment and had bourbon. That helped a lot of people in politics over the years. Doris is going to stay with us. Were going to fit in a break here. Coming up, what President Trump can learn from another new yorker in politics when we continue. It only thing we do. Expert medicine works here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com Cancer Treatment centers of america. Appointments available now. South l. A. Is very medically underserved. When the old hospital closed people in the community lived with untreated Health Problems for years. So, with the countys help we built a new hospital from the ground up and having citi as an early investor worked as a signal to others to invest. With citis help we built a wonderful Maternity Ward and we were able to purchase an mri machine. Weve made it possible for the people who live here to lead healthier lives and thats invaluable. As we mentioned, a new book from president ial historian and author doris Kearns Goodwin highlights Leadership Qualities in four american president s that helped them lead the country through rough times. Leadership in Turbulent Times paints a remarkable picture of the men in leadership this author has come to know best. When you think about it, other than the men in her family and anyone thats ever put on a red sox uniform, these are the most important men to this author. Lincoln, both roosevelts and lyndon johnson. Doris, i want to talk about the unusual notion of president ial vulnerability and empathy, something you write about regarding a place we both been, warm springs, georgia, and fdr. And theres no question that the path to the leadership that fdr exhibited in the presidency was through warm springs. Hes gotten polio, obviously. He finds out theres this place where if you can swim in the warm waters, you can exercise. He creates an institution for other polio patients. While hes there, he calls himself doc roosevelt. He teaches them, its not just exercising, you have to get joy in life again. You have to have fun. You have to feel like i do. You can see my legs, you can see what they look like. And they played games in the pool, they have dances in their wheelchairs at night. And they learn to love life again. And then when you think about it, he becomes president when the country is paralyzed by an economic depression and that confidence, that optimism and the empathy. He learned to feel a connection to people to whom fate had also dealt an unkind hand. He was wealthy, handsome, cocky sometimes, and suddenly, the vulnerability allowed him to connect to people. Everybody, it seems to me, all my leaders, my guys, i call them, ive lived with them so long. And you should. They went through adversity. And i think, if you go through adversity, lincoln suffered a blow to his public reputation, his private sense of honor. He was in a suicidal depression. But he came out of it stronger because he said, i havent done anything to make any human being remember that ive lived, so i have to go on. Teddy roosevelt loses his wife and mother on the same day in the same house. He goes to the badlands and he becomes stronger. He becomes a westerner rather than an easterner. If you go through adversity with resilient, hemingway said, everyone is broken by life, but sometimes people are stronger in the broken places. Thats what worries me about President Trump. He always wins, he never loses. And the exploration of history suggests that going through loss is critical. And these guys went through it and they came out the other end. And borrowing a trait that is the best of the web, i read your books on paper, and in the latter stage of the book, you use sub heads to talk about Leadership Qualities that they all across the board have in common. Rapid response, transparency, modern terms that Teddy Roosevelt believed in. Right, right. And Abraham Lincoln believed in. Its like a family resemblance. Each leader is depending on the time, they have to be there. Some are stronger for sometimes, other than not. The man fits the times. But there is a family resemblance. Humility, connecting to people, selfreflection. And being able to laugh at yourself. I mean, Teddy Roosevelt, when somebody writes a critical review of the memoir he wrote about the spanish american war, they said he made himself the center of every battle, instead of getting mad, he writes back, says, i regret to tell you my wife and friends absolutely love the review of my book. Thats the selfdeprecating humor. Where have we seen that recently . Not for a long time. History fans are going to greet this book with open arms, as we always do, the appearances of doris Kearns Goodwin in this studio. Thank you so much. Thank you. Again, the book is leadership in Turbulent Times. There it is. Coming up, a situation unfolding tonight that is going to require a whole lot of leadership to fix. That and more when we come back. Last thing before we go tonight, just a reminder that our friends in North Carolina are suffering. One image in particular today got our attention, and here it is. The meteorologist who posted this picture writes, thats not a river, its interstate 40 into wilmington, North Carolina. This image is from a Traffic Camera over the interstate highway maintained by the department of transportation in North Carolina. I40 is closed from i95 all the way to the coast. The next metropolitan area dealing with flooding now is fayetteville, North Carolina, where the Cape Fear River is expected to crest at 61 feet, just a few hours from now overnight. In some cases, the National Weather service doesnt have depth readings because flood gauges have been swamped. Turns out the highest recorded rainfall was in elizabethtown at just under 36 inches. As the Washington Post puts it tonight, florence and its deluge have washed out the normal contours of life across the tar heel state. Power is out for over 300,000 customers. Think of that. Thousands of people are, again tonight in shelters. And theres also a slow motion Environmental Crisis going on. Think of the septic and Sewage Systems that have been emptied into the water. Schools are closed. People need food and dry clothes and insulin. Synagogues are closed on the holiest day of the year. Bridges and dams are getting washed out that we dont even hear about and does anyone think those Infrastructure Projects will be rebuilt any time soon . The suffering, the destruction goes on and on, and as the governor of North Carolina warned again today, the water is still coming up in some communities. That is our broadcast for a tuesday night. Thank you so very much for being here with us. Good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. Tonight on all in the kavanaugh controversy continues. I feel so badly that hes going through this. As an embattled Supreme Court nominee gains a character witness. This is not a man who deserves this. I dont think the fbi should be involved. We should not i want to say to the men of the this country, shut up and step up. New reporting that the allmale republican Judiciary Committee may use female staffers to question the accuser. The battle of credibility is settled, hands down in favor of clarence thomas. On the republican strategy, this time around. The claims of Sexual Harassment were just not even worthy of the senate. And all in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes, we are now just six days from what could be the most explosive congressional hearing