Paying taxes largely empire reported losing more money than it made. His opponents now voluntarily sharing their own tax returns, which show both biden and harris paying what they owed under law, just over 30 . Tonight, joe biden can unload that ammunition on trump using a debate stage promising the largest audience of the year to present voters, almost a million who have already voted with his view of who donald trump really is. That is a challenge even with a good hand because donald trump, whether people like it or not, has proven to be a wildly dom nearing and at times effective debater. He often defined the topics and tempo in that first debate with Hillary Clinton, which drew a record 84 Million Viewers. His mix of sweeping claims and, yes, brash lies. Then the personal attacks have thrown off politicians with decades of experience in both parties. And let me be clear, as we kick off tonights coverage. This constant lying donald trump is known for, it invariably upends the very format of a debate because it taunts the opponent and the moderator in deciding whether to spend precious time Fact Checking him and his chosen topics or leaving, as the alternative, a blizzard of trump falsehoods unanswered. Top democrats, you may recall, even talked about why biden might be better off skipping tonights debate, echoing an expert on rhetoric none other than sean carter who said a wise man told me dont argue with fools because people from a distance cant tell who is who. Look, arguing with a lying fool can be harder than it looks. Mr. Carter was, of course, invoking more ancient lines from proverbs itself. It offers debate tips relevant to tonight. From proverbs, do not answer a fool to his followy or you will be like him. Answer a fool as his fohly deserves, that he not be wise in his own eyes. The world changes, but they say human nature doesnt. This is probably a big test for biden tonight. Can he prevail where other candidates faltered . Can joe biden avoid answering trumps follies, reacting to trumps gimmicks and lies and instead shred donald trump in ways that expose him before, yes, the eyes of his own voters. A man who claims to be a big chief executive who cant execute a plan to protect americans from covid, a man who claims to be rich but cant afford the kind of tax bills most americans pay, a man who claims to have most ratings in popularity but has never cracked 50 in votes or polling. As sean carter says in that same battle rap, we dont believe you. You need more people. Thats one point joe biden may want to explore tonight dealing with all of these challenges. Now an msnbc contributor and worked for both obama campaigns. Vice president for communication at cap and libby casey from the washington post. Good to see all of you. Cornell, having worked inside recent president ial campaigns, i deal with you and this problem. Its one thing to judge and morally condemn a candidate, a president who lies so much, but its another thing to get in the ring and decide when do you rebut the lie . You cant leave it unanswered but when do you say wait a minute, you have your time to use for your own topics. It is getting caught up in the trump whirlwind. Part of that is issue is i talked to voters who were on the fence going into 2016 and, as you know, ari, a lot of obama voters voted third party and said time and time again, we get that trump is bad in all the debates and all the conversations about trump. I want to know what hillary is going to do for us. I think its easy to get caught up in attacking trump, because its a targetrich environment. Theres so many lies, so many falsehoods out there. I think that would be a mistake on the part of the Vice President. I think he may have 90 Million Viewers tonight and its his opportunity for the Vice President to speak to those 90 Million Viewers exactly what he plans to do to change the direction of this country, to tackle covid and to fix our economy and not spend as much time on donald trump, because Donald Trumps numbers are already in the trash can. Donald trump needs to be the one who changes the dynamic, because hes the one who is behind. Libby, this is not a debate thats moderated, say, by the Associated Press or the washington post, your outlet, respected outlet or the New York Times. This is a fox news moderator. And what everyone thinks of Chris Wallace, fox news in general, i think it is accurate to say has been more on directly Donald Trumps side, has echoed things he said even when not true. For example, on covid. So that is also something that both candidates will have to deal with even though, to give full sort of awareness, donald trump has had his own clashes with mr. Wallace as well. With that context, i want to play a little bit of how Chris Wallace says he approaches tonight. Take a look. One of these two people is going to be the next president of the United States, and my job is to be as invisible as possible. Im trying to get them to engage, to focus on the key issues, to give people at home a sense of i want to vote for one versus the other. But if im done my job right at the end of the night, people will say that was a great debate. Who was the moderator . And, libby, thats fine, and yet in todays era, and particularly donald trump, you can also factor in him trying to make the moderator an issue. Im curious of what you think of all of the above. Chris wallace, certainly we understand the idea that the moderator is not the main story. You dont want people to walk away because youre stealing the show, taking all the oxygen out of the room. Fact checking is a role that journalists can bring to the table. Chris wallace said thats not his job. Hes leaving that to the candidates. Does joe biden spend his time trying to Fact Check Trump and what democratic strategists are saying is that you can do that to some degree but then you need to pivot back to the message youre trying to hit. If you can use a fact check to hit home a message and bring it back to the topic you want, then youre going somewhere. You bring up the great question of the role of the moderate and sort of bias. Chris wallace tries to take a different tone than sort of the entertainment, the infotainment part of fox news and has held President Trump accountable in the past, which has frustrated him in the past, maybe expecting a softer interview coming from someone from fox. False information about joe biden has been allowed to go unchecked on his show, mental acuity or how he might behave tonight. Chris wallace wants to take this lane of being sober, being serious and being focused. I wornder if he can resist doin Fact Checking. There may be moments where he says this is not he may call one of the candidates out on some issues, but, you know, it puts all journalists in a tough position when the idea of Fact Checking is taken off the table. I appreciate you said that Chris Wallace is sort of the sober one over there, but daniella, thats a little bit like claiming youre the most sober person in margaritaville. You may develop be. The washington post, it is a striking evolution. Roger ailes may have passed but he would be doing a dance today when you think about building Something Like fox news and getting it to this degree where its not only in the debates, its the first one. Daniella, a lot of viewers will just say take that as the kind of default middle ground. And i think mr. Wallace, again, its not anything personal. Its just about where he has fit in historically and where fox news fits in. Having said that, everyone here has weighed in a bunch, the biden side, the challenge, the media. You can pick from all the above. Yeah. I feel like if donald trump says hes going to lie a lot tonight but if there are some really egregious thing, i think it will harm Chris Wallaces reputation if he just lets it go, because we all are privy to the facts and we all have been hearing what donald trump is saying. I would be curious to see if he doesnt actually step in and fact check donald trump. Look, biden, i think, is in a slightly tough position because, like i said, trump will lie the entire night. He really needs to use this opportunity to talk to the American People and explain to them why their lives will be better under a Biden Administration and, you know, one of the first things you learn in Media Training is the art of the pivot, as you say. If donald trump lies about something, say thats a lie, this is why and quickly move off of it and talk about what you want to do for people. Thats whats most important right now. We all know most people know what donald trump has done the last four years. We know that hes incapable of leading. Now its time for Vice President biden to tell us what is america going to look like under your administration . Thats what we want to hear tonight. Yeah. And you have a lot of experience in this as well. These are big nights in politics. Before i was fulltime in journalism i worked for two u. S. Senators. When youre prepping for certain appearances you do talk about can you put something in a frame that doesnt cost you a lot of your precious time . Look, hes a deadbeat liar. So, again, hes saying what deadbeat liars say and let me tell you the facts and then you can repeat that frame for 90 minutes and the next point, they remember something about trump, dead beat liar and hopefully remember something about your plan. Trump is very good at hitting back at that. In a world where he is rightly criticized for shortcomings, cornell, it may be easy to forget, wait, theres a reason he beat a lot of republicans. Take the red blue thing out of it. A lot of people on those stags,s did pretty well, including the republican primary vote. I want to ask you specifically, cornell, about that and numbers as a pollster. Numbers cut different ways depending on your mood. Weve had jokes with you and others about how can there be undecided people. And yet i think you would agree if you can move 10 of people in this race tonight or in the coming days, whifr candidate can move 10 could win, right . Yes. Thats a lot of people. I want to put up for your analysis here, look at this. We have 86 of people saying their minds are made up about who they will vote for. 14 said theyre persuadable tonight. Half empty or full, you could say, okay most people made up their mind or you could say wow, if one in ten people who are undecided make up their mind tonight this thing could swing tonight. Not only in the National Picture but you move 4 one way or another in pennsylvania, michigan or certainly florida and its a different race. So the debate tonight is important. Although at the same time, im torn, ari. We say these debates are so important but at the same time, historically, are they that important . I worked for a man named barack obama, who you all panned in every debate he did, particularly in the debate with Hillary Clinton and you panned him in the first debate against mitt romney. In the end, Ronald Reagan was panned for his performance and won by a landslide. I think what matters the most is really the likability. If youre the frontrunner, you have to come out of this thing unscathed. You have to make sure you do no harm. But it all falls back on this. This was a problem with al gore and his debates. I love al gore but this was a problem with al gore in his debates. He knew all the answers, but he wasnt the most likable person on stage. To a certain extent when you look at what biden has to do tonight look, if he says something outrageous, i think you have to check him on it, but i swear to you, ari, i would not spend most of my time in a back and forth with that foolishness. I would be talking to the American People. Right. Make myself more relatable. Right. Try to come across as relatable, likable and strong. Just under a minute left here. I go daniella and then libby. I totally agree with that. What this country is missing is a leader, but also a leader who shows empathy, a leader who shows that they understand what the American People are going through. And that is something that Vice President biden has in leaps and bounds. So when hes telling the American People what hes going to do for them, showing them his empathy, i think, will go a long way and only hit trump if hes being ridiculously outrageous and egregious, but spend your time telling the American People how youre going to lead. Can he put donald trump in a box and talk directly to the American People about what he wants to do . Donald trump is the one who has to make up ground tonight, having that bombshell tax report coming out on the eve of this is not helping donald trump. He has to be the one to claw back some momentum. Joe biden needs to maintain and also present that, may i say, president ial, president ial manner to the american public. President ial manner. Boy, thats a term that could be widely debated these days. Libby casey, daniella, and cornell belcher, thanks to both of you. Our shortest break, 30 seconds, we have chairman schiff. Turn of events on the Breonna Taylor case later this hour and tax returns of President Trump including the apprentice. When we return in just 30 seconds. Rentice. When we returnn ijust 30 seconds. We live in uncertain times. However, there is one thing you can be certain of. The men and woman of the United States postal service. We are here to deliver your cards, packages and prescriptions. And also deliver the peace of mind knowing that whats important to youlike your ballotis on its way. Every day, all across america, we deliver for you. And we always will. Welcome back. Continuing a theme from our first segment, eyeing this debate tonight, donald trump has been hiding and lying about his taxes for decades. Its especially rough timing for him to find them exposed as he heads into this debate tonight. The New York Times, of course, breaking this story this weekend with the most exhaustive accounting trump has ever faced. Now the paper is out with more, showing trumps claims as bouncing back when he launched the apprentice were a total hoax. He lost 90 million in his core businesses. He did feel pressed to acknowledge it. While he kept hiding the 90 million in losses, the debts behind him and the company was stronger than ever. I was seriously in trouble. I was billions of dollars in debt. I used my brain. I used my negotiating skills, and i worked it all out. Now my company is bigger than it ever was, and stronger than it ever was, and im having more fun than ive ever had. New reporting showing there was nothing fun about trumps desperate clashes with creditors nor his ongoing efforts now to outrun loans that come due in the several years ahead of us, all issues that are on the table at tonights debate. Im joined by art of the deal coauthor tony schwartz. Dealing with the devil my mother, trump and me. Good evening, sir. Good evening to you, sir. The issue of media bias came up earlier in the broadcast. We are biassed somewhat towards you as a guest. With that possible bias, you are specifically situated to what were going to hear tonight. You sat with donald trump and crafted arguments and words together. Whats it important for viewers and citizens to think about as they listen to both candidates tonight . Well, first of all, when trump starts to repeat words, you know, enemy of the people, hoax, phrases that he has used over and over again, its designed to spellbind. Its designed to overwhelm you with the repetition and so one of the things i would say to biden is dont be afraid to repeat yourself. Dont be afraid to say a phrase, as one of your last guests said, over and over again, particularly if its something if its about something that you are capable of doing that hes not. That would be, to me, a critical way for biden to start. When you were around him, did you see the same skills, panache or brazen lies, all of it or part of it, that would later be on display in these past debates . You could make the argument, not on morality or truth, but on east efficacy, that donald trump hasnt really lost any debate. No. When i attended all three debates when i was, honestly, advising the Hillary Campaign on what was likely to get under trumps skin. Interestingly, everything that i remember advising not everything, but much of it, she did, and it did get under his skin, and it didnt matter. Now, tony so, it is tony . Im listening. Are you taking credit for Hillary Clintons Electoral College loss . Is that what youre doing . Well, ive taken they followed your playbook. Ive taken so much blame and willingly taken so much blame for the impact that ive had on trump that if i had a little positive impact on hillary, that would be offsetting. But go ahead. Well, i just think that he should, indeed, you know, be talking about the things that he will do. I believe that this idea of biden simply being biden. He doesnt have to be anything else, because if its true that the frontrunner, if its true im sorry, not the frontrunner, but the president has to come off more likable, thats very, very tough for trump against a guy who actually has empathy, who actually has a conscience, who does care. So i think, you know, just reciting the facts simply and plainly, and when trump comes at him, why did you call american soldiers who died in war losers and suckers . Why do you allow people to come to rallies without Wearing Masks . Why did you put your Supreme Court nominee and her whole family at risk for coronavirus by not having them wear masks . Why have you praised kyle witten wittenhaus who shot and killed Peaceful Protesters . Why have you lied so many times . There you go again. Remember when reagan said there you go again. There you go again, yeah. That was one of the most important moments. Why . Because it showed how evunavunc reagan was, how likable he was. I wouldnt mind biden pulling that phrase in where its important, there you go again. Debates are three dimensional more than it appears because it looks like two people talking, and the extra theatrics but posing questions or pushing b k back, right, is what we were discussing earlier, that effective debating doesnt only win the moment youre in, but casts a shadow over the other coming time in the exchange. And trump has proven very good at that for the reasons mentioned. Given how many vulnerabilities there are, attacking in a way that puts the ownness on trump to address it, to respond with his time. And really upend the format. Thats the other thing i wanted to ask you about. Donald trump, in many ways, has gotten away with breaking rules and breaking format. Again, the morality and legality of that has been well discussed. But in a debate, trump just completely runs over the moderator at the time, this and that. Biden in the primaries kept saying i see im out of time this and that. That would look downright acquaiquaint tonight. How that factors in. Dont debate trump. But that sounds crazy. Talk to the people who are in the audience. Im talking directly to you right now, and to your viewers. If im looking over here at trump, who is on the big debate stage, im not talking directly to you. Talk to the American People and talk in the way that you do. Make believe that trump isnt really in the equation. Yes, hes there. You have to deal with him. But speak to people about what youre going to do to protect and extend their health care, what are the specific actions that youre going to take . How are you going to invest in whatever it takes to get Climate Change under control . And, most important, what are you going to do to heal the divisions that have emerged under trump over the last five years, four years . How are we going to find Common Ground and bring people back together . Honestly, i suspect that 70, 75 or more of the electorate, even the 20th of that gram that is for trump or leaning to trump wants a different kind of world than were living in right now, and a world you dont feel antagonized all the time. A lot on the table tonight. Interesting interviews for all the background reasons we mentioned. Tony schwartz, good to see you. Audio book is dealing with the devil. Very special guest with all these new disclosures. Intelligence chairman in the house, adam schiff. Democrats talking about the National Security threat on the table. First, deeper inside the debate strategy and how biden can draw lessons from the past. We have an expert who literally coached obama and the democratic nominees when we return. E democc nominees when we return. Wow. 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Since donald trump first squared off with Hillary Clinton. I will release my tax returns, against my lawyers wishes, when she releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted. So youve got to ask yourself, why wont he release his tax returns . She tells you how to fight isis on her website. I dont think general Douglas Macarthur would like that too much. The next segment will at least i have a plan to fight isis. Youre the puppet. I have a feeling by the end of this evening im going to be blamed for everything thats ever happened. Why not . Why not . Robert bannerett has worked on literally ten different cycles as the debate guru. Also a very celebrated attorney, and heather mcgee, color of change organization that fights inequality. Great to have you here. There is no soviet domination of eastern europe. I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponents youth and inexperience. Tell me how its affected you again. You know people who have lost their jobs, lost their home . Yeah. Position on issues, but can he get things done . And i believe i can. Brought us binders full of women. Please proceed, governor. Some of the moments people remember. Robert, when you look at all of that, what does it tell you about tonight . It tells me im very old. Thats one thing it tells me. The other thing it tells me is that those moments carry on in history. Those moments will be analyzed by the pundits tonight, but i think this time around, more than any of the ten cycles ive been involved in since 1976, those memorable lines will not matter as much as what people face tomorrow when they have to remotely school their child, when they have to find a job because theyre unemployed, when they have to fight racial injustice. I think this time around the debates will be interesting, will be important. I dont minimize it. But i think the sterling moments will be usurped by the realities of life in america under donald trump. Heather . Yeah. I think thats a really good point. I think theres a way for the Vice President to connect everything that happens on the debate stage to, you know, the experiences of americans, obviously the big marquis story going into the debate is 750, right . Its the fact that donald trump is, you know, someone who has contributed less to our government in taxes than a fast food worker. And, you know, hes going to say that its fake news, but i think joe biden has to say, which is it . Are you a tax cheat or are you a failure . Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth, and then you basically choked on it. What is the truth about what youre hiding that you dont want to release your tax returns . Either way youre not someone who is fit to lead. 750 is also less than many people pay in Health Insurance premiums and donald trump wants to make that higher, right, by a appointing a Supreme Court justice who could repeal the Affordable Care act. Theres lots of ways that pivot to the things people care about, putting food on the table, health care, surviving this pandemic and getting back to some sense of normalcy. Ari, theres a phenomenon that exists this time thats never in my lifetime occurred, and that is the last week, approximately, two mega events have occurred. A week ago we wouldnt even have been talking about as we preview this debate. But now we are. The Supreme Court and, of course, the New York Times story about the tax returns. And it will take some quick maneuvering by the candidates to make sure those things are addressed in one case in the defensive way, and in another case in an offensive way. But it will also raise the stakes for the moderator, who is very good and will be very good, who has laid out the topics, but probably has to change those topics because it will probably be moderator malpractice not to bring up those two intruding topics and critically important topics. Now weve talked a bit about some of the vulnerabilities, potentially, of donald trump. Robert, when you look at the way trump goes on the attack and creates smoke and issues, what is your view, having coached so many candidates about what to do when or if he hits biden or goes after bidens family or his son . You have to balance. First of all, if its personal and its obvious that youve got to respond, you respond. But you dont take the bait. You pivot. The magic, history and success of debates often hinges on the pivot. And you go from what he has done, not take the bait, not get down with him. Go high, as Michelle Obama would say, not go low. And move to the subject you want to talk about. Would you say for instance im going to use a moderators privilege myself and jump in on you. Would you say going high has always worked for democrats against trump . No. Understand im not saying immediately go high. Theres a need to counterpunch with certain things but you dont want to get 15 minutes into the debate and be strictly attacking. Its so important if youre joe biden, and i think he knows this, im sure he knows this, to use this opportunity to tell 100 Million People what hes for on Climate Change, the economy, the pandemic, racial injustice. And thats the wise use of this time, i think. Right. I appreciate the nuance youre drawing. Donald trump certainly makes that more complex, which is the time answering versus your own vision. Heather, i want to play a little bit of what weve heard from swrbd about how hes approaching this, which is pretty interesting, going into the high stakes evening. Take a look. Look, the people know the president is a liar. I mean, they know that. Its not like its its going to come as a surprise to them. And so im prepared to go out and make my case as to why i think hes failed. My guess is its going to be just straight attack. Theyre going to be mostly personal. Thats the only thing he knows how to do. He doesnt know how to debate the facts, because hes not that smart. Heather . Thats pretty good. You know, i think theres a big question for the campaign, which is, you know, what are the core audiences that the Vice President wants to shore up, wants to move, wants to really get enthusiastic and excited, right . Were seeing the sort of other swing voters, right . We spend so much time talking about the swing voters who are moderates or white, married women in the suburbs, however you want to slice it, but the other swing voters are the millions of people who swung away from the democrats and stayed home, which was disproportionately africanamerican voters, who really want to see in this moment of crisis someone stand up to donald trump, someone say that the incitement of violence against Peaceful Protesters is wrong, that the targeting of protesters, that the disinformation and smearing of movements like black lives matter is wrong. And that he, donald trump he, joe biden, has a plan for, you know, really turning the page on the last vestiges of mass incarceration that are still with us. He has that challenge where he really needs to speak to black americans who have always been the linchpin of the Democratic Party in the modern era and who have every reason to choose not to vote against donald trump, but at every juncture need to hear that joe biden and Kamala Harris are going to demonstrably change things for the better. You raise a good point on the substance and the politics. People have noticed that trump seems to be going so hard to his base all the time, and then sometimes some of the democrats dont seem to be doing the same, when thats the mobilization and energy they need. I have to get to congressman schiff. Robert, very briefly, last word . I was just going to say when youre the incumbent and have the megaphone of the white house, you can get a lot more attention. Its much more difficult when youre the challenger. Joe biden has did terrific plans about the pandemic, Climate Change, et cetera, et cetera. Th theyre on his website. This is a golden opportunity to get them in front of 100 Million People, and i think he will do that while still defending himself from ridiculous attacks and downright lies. Heather mcgee, robert ba barnett. Hillary clinton is our special guest in our special coverage that launches at 8 00 p. M. Pouncing on new National Security concerns. A very special live interview with a man who has led so many of these issues. House intelligent chairman adam schiff, after this. Schiff, after this so they only pay for what they need. False alarm. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. There areand the best. S. Which egg tastes more farmfresh and delicious . Only egglands best. With more vitamins d and e and 25 less saturated fat . Only egglands best. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. Staying at home is more important than ever, especially if you have a chronic illness or just got out of the hospital. Kindred at home can come to you. With the help of our skilled, compassionate clinicians, you can learn to manage your illness or regain your strength in the privacy of home. We take every precaution to protect you so your home can be both a comfortable place and a safe place to get the care you need. Kindred at home. Go online or call the number on your screen. I got it all from you im always pushing through i know well make it to the finish line i know youre waiting on the other side im like you ondemand glucose monitoring. Because theyre always on. Another lifechanging technology from abbott. So you dont wait for life. You live it. Ms. Williams weve been working hard. Ms. Robinson . To make learning fun again. Ms. Duncan and making sure our students can succeed. Ms. Zamora were with you every step of the way. Ms. Robinson i know its a challenging time. Ms. Zamora no one wants to be back in the classroom more than teachers. Ms. Williams we have missed you so much. Mr. Hardesty but we all have to be safe. Ms. Robinson because were all in this together. Narrator making our School Buildings safer. Ms. Robinson working together, we can make it a great year. Narrator because the California Teachers Association knows quality Public Schools make a better california for all of us. This president appears to have over 400 million in debt. To whom . This is a National Security questio question. Who does he owe the money to . Tell us, who do you owe the money to . It did take years but trumps tax returns finally exposed. Donald trump exposed for conning the u. S. Government and his own supporters, ducking those tax bills and generally lying a lot to everyone, including potentially the government, which is a potential crime. There is also a spec of good news for donald trump. The times did not specifically reveal any previously unreported connections to russia. Trump allyies rebuts longstandig about putin. While Foreign Debts actually provide, quote, outrageous vulnerability because so many foreign agents and actors could exploit them. These are the kind of debts that would literally stop anyone else from getting a basic security clearance let alone a top government job. Were joined by adam sc hichhif. I want to ask you this question with both pieces to it that the times own reporting says they didnt find new russia ties. Your response to that, given how much you looked at that issue and the flip side, how many other vulnerabilities there may be that affect our National Security. Well, first on the no russia ties and the tax returns, our committee is seeking the bank records, not the tax returns, the records of deutsche bank, which no other bank would do business with donald trump because of his bad credit, was willing to extend hundreds of dollars in loans. They have a long history of laundering money for the russians and have paid thousands in fines for doing that. What the tax returns do reveal is that the president is heavily indebted. To whom, the tax returns dont tell us. Whether he will be dependent on foreign powers or foreign parties or face another bankruptcy, we dont know. But it certainly is a vulnerability, National Security vulnerability for us not knowing the answer to those questions. Yeah. And i think youre absolutely right, he would never get a security clearance, let alone a position of responsibility without those questions being answered. So this is the wild part, congressman. We discussed this before but now we have more evidence. I feel like were in the movie and im asking you the questions that are in the spy thriller, but now that this level of debt has been confirmed by this exhaustive new report, we know something about the debt we didnt know last week. What is to keep a Foreign Government or Foreign Governmentlinked bank from buying up that debt, even at a premium, so they have new leverage over the sitting president . Nothing at all. Nothing at all. And whats more, never mind having leverage over him, although thats obviously a paramount worry. They could curry favor by bailing him out. True. You can imagine, this president does nothing thats not in his personal interest. And you can imagine how grateful he would be if some foreign power bail him out. But also, you know, just his dependence on able to market his brand because his brand made up for all his tragic business decisions. If erdogan were to say no more trump tower in istanbul, then you could obviously have a huge influence on foreign policy. It may already explain his tendency to autocrats like erdogan. If he won, there would be four more years, youre in a coequal branch of government and what was hypothetically scary last week, but possibly false in fairness. We cover a lot of Public Officials and cant go around saying the worst possible scenario is how were going to treat them because thats not journalism. Journalistically, that bad scenario has been confirmed. What is to be done about what you say is currently possible . Well, you know, i think the sad reality is that unless the senate were to flip, if donald trump remained president , he would continue to stonewall any oversight by congress. So, we wouldnt be able to tell whether a foreign power made a secret business arrangement to help rescue donald trump from his debt or whether they were calling in his debt and, therefore, he was compromised. We would try to find out. But as we have seen, the gop and the senate is utterly unwilling to even enforce its own institutional perogatives like subpoenas. It refused to convict the president for stonewalling all of congressional oversight. We have to hope in the interest of protecting ourselves from compromise, if donald trump isnt removed from office, the ultimate way to protect the country, that the Senate Changes hands so there is accountability. Its really wild. Its a bad thing. I say that regardless of who the president was, or their party, to have this confirmed debt out there. Last thing i want to get you on, fallout from the mueller probe, flynns attorney now discussed in counseling the president about this, quote, she asked donald trump not to issue a pardon and gave him a general update on the status of that case. Your response to that, and these loose ends from the probe . Just the staggering impropriety of a case involving someone who lied to essentially cover up for the president , who the president and his attorney general intervened to try to make the case go away and now the president is continuing to have direct conversations with that persons lawyer. You know, its hard to know where to begin to talk about how improper all of that is. I can certainly understand why the judge in that case is so alarmed and incensed at what he is seeing. Its the broader attack on the rule of law that has bill barr now dribbling out information in advance of the election, has director Radcliffe Publishing russian intelligence that he acknowledges may be demonstrably false. He said it was derived from sensitive sources and methods and he hasnt briefed congress on. That investigation will reveal those sources and methods. For what . To try to give the president some miniscule advantage in the next few days . Its just incomprehensible how much damage theyre doing to our National Security. All important stuff, congressman, and chairman adam sc hichlt ff thank you. Thank you. A story weve not hit this hour that is very important. Major developments, including secret leaks coming out of that Breonna Taylor case and grand jury. An update for you when we come back. Jury an update for you when we come back phone 24 7. Then, for the first time ever, include disney , hulu, and espn . Were a big soccer family. Handmaids tale. I love frozen. Then give families plans to mix and match, so you only pay for what you need. And offer it at a price built for everyone. Plus, buy the Samsung Galaxy s20 5g for less than 5 per month, and get another on us. The network more people rely on gives you more. Thats verizon. More dangerous and corrupt president than trump. Hes harming our basic values, giving rise to hate, and hes selling out america to big corporations. Im working to protect immigrants, women, communities of color, and lgbtq people. And im making corporations like pg e and Insurance Companies play by our rules. We need experienced leadership to wipe away trumps stain on america for good. A key update in this Breonna Taylor case that we have been following. A judge now ruling the recordings of the grand jury proceedings actually must be released to the public. They could come out as soon as tomorrow. Thats unusual. The judges ruling though comes after a grand juror in this very case filed an unusual motion to request the freedom to speak out and urging evidence to be released. The attorney general laid a lot of responsibility at the grand jurors feet. But they have yet to answer what was actually presented as far as the charges and the individuals that were directed to. And i think that is important for the public to know and i think my client feels strongly, the same. What is being suggested is that this prosecutor may have put a finger on the scale in the presentation to the grand jury. We need to get more evidence to know how to assess that. Theres also the insistence were hearing that one witness who did hear the Police Identify announcing themselves in the raid, theres more to that story. Of a dozen witnesses that i spoke to, only one, a man who was directly upstairs, heard them announce. Do you think thats enough in the middle of the night when somebody is asleep for just one person in a tightknit apartment block to have heard that . Is that a sufficient way of announcing . Your question was is it enough for me . I think the more pertinent question is what was the evidence provided to the grand jury . Again, you see the effort to put this all on the grand jury. But there are questions about what was presented and whether the evidence changed. One kentucky journalistic outlook reporting that right after the shooting he told investigators no one identified themselves as police. Then officials went back two months later and then he said he did hear them identify themselves saying this is the cops. The Taylor Family is asking for both public transparentsy to end the secrecy and an independent special prosecutor who might present an independent case to a new grand jury. I want to tell you to keep it right here for debate coverage, which starts especially at 8 00 p. M. Eastern tonight. Full debate analysis immediately afterwards. And after that the late night coverage has Brian Williams up. And then i will pick up after him at 12 30 eastern with our special live postdebate recaps. But dont go anywhere. The reidout with joy reid is up right after this break. Er th. My father always reminded me, a good education takes you many different horizons and that sticked to my mind. So, when 1 a day came out, i said, why not . Why not just utilize that resource. And walmart made that path open for me. Without the 1 a day program, i definitely dont think id be in school right now. Each week for me in school is just an accomplishment. I feel proud every step of the way. I wanted more from my copd medicine thats why ive got the power of 1, 2, 3 medicines with trelegy. The only fdaapproved oncedaily 3in1 copd treatment. Trelegy the power of 1,2,3 trelegy 1,2,3 trelegy woman with trelegy and the power of 1, 2, 3, im breathing better. 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In about two hours in cleveland, ohio, joe biden and donald trump will face off in the first of three debates, as polls both nationally and in