the youngest chair of naacp leads the organization into the 21st century. >> hello, i'm bonnie erbe. welcome to "to the contrary," a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. up first, the future of education. as chicago public school teachers battled over the future of education in one of america's largest school districts, teachers and parents across the u.s. are taking notes. top of the list? restricting standardized testing as a measure of teacher performance. teachers across the country say standardized testing inhibits and does not improve learning. but administrators say those tests measure how well students are absorbing teachers' classroom studies. some school districts, chicago included, want pay raises and incentives to be tied to those test scores. teachers unions across the country watched the strike for guidance on how they should proceed in their own districts. dr. avis jones-deweever will this change the status of education in this country? >> i don't think it's like alone will change the status. but create a situation where we can look highway teachers, unions, government in general can create better educational opportunities for all of our children. >> sadly, no, there's still no market in education we don't have a system to encourage innovation or reward results. >> politics -- education is really so localized and i think that's one of the problems is that there aren't enough systems to sort of do best practices across the country and so what happens in chicago is not necessarily relevant for what happens in washington. never the twain meet in education. >> no. unfortunately this strike was not for the best interests of the chicago children who have graduating high school at 60%. it was for those teachers who are the third highest paid teachers in the country. i think that's ashame. >> yet the majority they polled parents in the majority of the parents were in support of the teachers striking which at the time of our taping the strike was looking like it was about over. >> i think it's unfortunate a lot of parents are misinformed. the whole thick about standardized testing is a big issue since we were in great school. take it or leave it part of life is about standardized testing. really the -- >> wait a second. let's parse this out part might be about standardized testing but only standardized test i took in high school were the psat and s.a.t.s. and we were not -- this whole pointing, everything not having arts classes, not having gym classes because they're so cash strapped, not having foreign language classes but putting a bunch of kids in a classroom teaching them rote about english and math and that sort of thing. why are we surprised that the public school system is failing? >> i a agree with you. i'm not saying that we should have standardized testing, i believe you went to new york city schools as i did. we had the regents exam where you could grade up to certain levels. my point is that, itest r exists you deal with those also fact that the children aren't learning. they're not being taught the abcs it's all about end-base teaching which is not successful at all. we need to go back to basics. reading, writing and arithmetic. until they get -- we have big issue in baltimore in the complaint is that the buildings are crumbling. you know what, there was a time when my parents went a school that was one room and one shared a book for four or five grades they were very successful. not about the building it's about what is going on in the pulling. i think parents need to be better informed that the children deserve more and aren't getting what they're paying for. >> the question that you raised earlier is not the testing, per ses bad. it's that if you tie teacher evaluations to test results you're incentivising teacher to do the wrong thing. only incentivising them to sort of teach answers to tests. and the national academy of sciences, the rand corporation there are studies that say this is just not effective way to motivate. that's what's the unions are fighting for is to have a better level of understanding about sort of how to help teachers do well, not just focus on test results. >> but why is the country are we so hung up on testing then? i mean it started under bush with no child left behind, clearly didn't work, why is obama continuing it? >> you know, look, we have the nation's report card which is one of the largest standardized tests from research we have done that one out of four of those eighth grade students were achieving below level and both reading and math. the standardized tests are telling us the most important thing that the schools are failing. we need to have -- >> i've heard commentators say, that's not what the standardized tests are telling us. they're really just an indicator of the economic status of the children taking the test. because affluent kids do great. poor kids fail and do lousy if all you're doing is testing how much money the kid -- how much money there is in the neighborhood where the school is, what good is that? >> i think that's all we need to have a broader conversation that without parental choice, without private school choice, competition, all of this is a moot point. the fact is that we're spending more and more for decades now and achievements are going down. obviously the status quo is not working. >> the answer of school choice, charter schools, private schools is not the panacea, it is not. no matter how many children get vouchers that's not 100% of the children. you will still have public schools that are there to service the majority of children and every child, every child deserves to have a quality education here in this country. frankly as long as we tie our funding of schools to the property values in neighborhoods we will always have a cast system as it relates to how we educate our children in this country. and beyond that, in terms of the specific statistics were around standardized testing the real information that we really need to have people think about is what sort of children do we want to produce. do we want to have children that just can memorize facts, which is important, i'm not saying that it's not important. but a generation of critical thinkers, do we want to create the children that are going to develop the next ipad, for example. we need to figure out a way in which we encourage creative thinking, ways to encourage children to be able to think outside the box and think about how they can create the next thing that will move our economy in the next direction. we're not going to do that just by having people memorizing -- >> the reputation of teachers unions are being stereotyped to the past. actually some of the most innovative thinking how to do that is coming out of teachers' union, the american federation of teachers actually is supporting a series of charter schools, not because they think that charter schools are the way to go, obviously they sometimes drain money from other public schools. but because if you have sort of laboratories of good teaching you can take what's working in charter schools and bring them to the rest of the public school system. that is so important. >> it's not happening now. >> the other thing we should address in this dialogue, what responsibility do parents play in this? i know in the situation with parents are working a lot of people aren't at home we need to find that balance where when a child leaves school that they have the support they need at home, whether it's a program, whether it's the church, whether it's a neighborhood group, what have you. because that's what makes a learning every day -- >> let me ask you this. because you sort of got to my next point ahead of me in a way. why are we putting so much pressure on teachers when a lot of -- let's face it particularly poor children are being raised in homes where there's only one parent, where the -- they're brought in to the world in these situations where it's not fair to any child, really, to be brought in to the world no. resources, parents -- a lot of them don't care how the kid does in school. aren't there to pick the kid up after school. are we putting too much of a load on teachers to deal with a generation of children that are really badly damaged. >> i hate to give a blanket answer, no. however, there are teachers who work really, really hard, i've had this discussion, you hate teachers, i don't hate teachers, i love teachers. i'm the person i am because of great teachers. but teachers need assistance not only from the parents at home but also the incentive. you talked about incentives. the teachers -- the kids are excelling and doing well in the grades of reading above grade level they're doing math above grade level. going to be our next einstein, so to speak. they should be rewarded for what they do. those teachers who aren't up to snuff should be -- but answer my question then we got to get on. which is, when you send a kid to school without -- hasn't even eaten breakfast, who isn't being compared far regularly, raised by a drug mother or even raised by a single mom who doesn't have the resources to properly care for this child. don't you put too big a burden on the teach tore turn that around? >> i think what the premise of this whole conversation is that because people are poor they don't care enough about their children to -- >> no. i'm saying that -- >> i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that a lot of these kids are just not being taken care of properly. there's one parent in the. >> for the majority of children there's always going to be the parent who is a bad parent. ultimately parents are going to do what they think is best for the children whether they're rich or poor, rural, urban, we need to give -- greatest number of choices to find a system that works best for their family. >> last word is -- >> my mother taught over 30 years. she has one of those teachers that has to dig in to her own pocketbook to supply the also say that we need parents to support what we're doing. but i think she would also acknowledge that every child that comes to her classroom, comes there by parents who have wishes and hopes and aspirations for that child. even thisth that parent is working a double shift can't be there -- >> there is those who aren't working double shifts don't show up. >> but that's why what you were mentioning before, having other community support like the after school programs are so important. >> particularly when you have 40 kids in your class. >> exactly. let us know what you think. please follow me on twitter @bonnieerbe. from education to breast-feeding. students protested this week when a college professor breast-fed her sick baby in the middle of a lecture. american university assistant professor adrienne pine says as a limited-income single mom she had few options. pine says she was shocked and annoyed that feeding a baby in front of college students was seen as inappropriate or unprofessional. student opinion is split but au issued a statement saying while it doesn't have breastfeeding policy, break and private rooms are available. faculty members also have the option of taking earned leave when backup childcare is not available. the class she was teaching is called, "sex, gender and culture." so, sabrina a, i just wonder on the first day of class, first of all, bringing a sick child in to the classroom, exposed the 40 students to germs. secondly to start breast feeding without even asking if students are going to be okay with it. what does she do to her credibility as an authority? >> my first thought maybe this is a psychology experiment to see how people were going to respond. but it came out that this baby was not quite an infant who had to be fed, on demand, it was a one year old, this baby could actually eat solid foods, give him a cracker or something. i have three children, i am a proponent of breast feeding but i think that you do need to be respectful that everybody might not appreciate that. you are teaching a class, the way you're on television. you have to be considerate of the situation. >> i am a mother, i breast fed my sons, one until he was over one. i understand that. i also was a college professor. i really wanted to be on her side. however, that's kind of ridiculous. i have to be real about. this you can take a moment, as a professor, you can say, i need 15 minutes. read from your books and i'll be right back. you can carolina situation, that's your classroom. i do wonder the point that you brought up is excellent one especially when you're close in age to your students in fact maybe teaching people that are in fact older than you have to set yourself up from an authority figure, like it or not as women we are oftentimes judges being less qualified or lesotho that itive than we actually are given circumstances. i do wonder some sauce sabotaged herself. and i also have to wonder what are her students thinking now every time she walks in to the classroom. >> anybody here going to support her? >> go for it. >> it's not easy, you're right. in the 17th century the puritans did not come over here from england for nothing. they brought their values, their oohs about sex and bodies and you know, it seems -- first of all i love that this is a story because it's such an interesting conversation, right? but it seems like such a big deal over not so much. she was covered up, wasn't a -- i think it is a story because no pun intended overly titillating. [laughter] that just a fear for anything that really relates to women's bodies to be too exposed. i just think that's crazy in this day and age. >> why do you say fear, though? let's talk about that? what if it's -- >> but that doesn't matter, what about if it embarrasses the students. >> i quite frankly think, i'm for breast feeding, obviously it's healthier, better for the mom, better for the kid. but with limitations, it's not -- to do it in restaurants, which i see all the time. if i were a student in her class and she said, hey, guys, i've botony kid here. who is going to be upset if i breast feed. >> i would have said i'm sorry. >> is it seeing a child. is it a child sucking on a breast? >> wait a second. it's a -- >> it is a distract shun. >> that's different. i think we have to acknowledge that there's a discomfort with women's bodies, that's why people do this. >> it's not necessarily a good thing that we're implanted there. >> you have to remember that was -- this is her workplace. it's not a restaurant, it's not the mall. this is where she creates business or does business, so to speak. i just think it was not respectful of the student. i understand the child was sick, i'm a mother, too, i breast fed as well. my son has seen more insides of bathrooms than i can count. it really just -- should have -- >> one last -- get over the breast thing. this does not feel like the -- >> what if a male teacher came in topless. i mean, wouldn't that be -- that would be distracting, too. >> as long as he had a six pack. >> i cannot imagine that people would be complaining about it. >> you don't think that would be a story? >> i absolutely think that would be a story. >> might be a worthy experiment. >> all right. we've beat then one to death. roslyn brock. the chairman of the board of the naacp made headlines this year when the organization announced support for marriage equality. the youngest chairman in history is bringing a woman's perspective to the country's oldest civil rights organization. >> i made history to become the fourth woman in the 10 years of the organization to chair the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization. only the third african american woman but fourth woman in history. and so i'm privileged and i'm fortunate to serve the naacp and legacy of women leaders throughout this country. >> brock joined the naacp as a 19-year-old college student. she became chairman of the board in 2010, the youngest chair in the organization's hundred year history. now, she is leading the naacp into the 21st century. >> we really believe that as we look toward the future, our policy efforts will be more proactive and not reactive. and affirming to all those who want to become members of the organization that we are not just an african-american organization, we are a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic organization who believes in strong values of fairness, equity and equality for all of america's citizens. >> that, she says includes gay and lesbian americans. >> i was able to lead our board of directors in a very deliberate and thoughtful conversation about marriage equality. once we were able to ground that conversation in our constitution where we believe that there should be no discrimination in american society based upon race, gender or sexual orientation, we were able then to kind of unpack the issues. we are not a religious organization, so we took our stance not based on any moral principle or even under any kind of religious basis. >> and being the youngest chair has served brock well. when she led the board to support marriage equality, her youth and gender were assets. >> my leadership style is very participatory. i'm willing to listen and engage multiple voices in decision-making, and i'm very inclusive in how i make my decisions. but after we've had a lot of conversations, asked a lot of questions and done the proper research, i'm able to come to a place where my decisions are very deliberate and very decisive. >> brock once received advice on leadership she still draws on today. >> i met with the late dr. dorothy irene height, the foremost woman in civil rights movement. and i asked her the question, "you know, how do you lead in a crowded field of men in the civil rights movement." she said, "roslyn, it doesn't matter who gets the credit. just make sure that you get the job done." when i was able to step back from those words, they were very, very impactful. and i'm privileged to lead the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization in its second century, partnered with young african-american male, we're leading this organization by leaps and bounds. >> and, she hopes to help the young women in the naacp just like the women before her. >> the naacp national board of directors is about 40% women, and about 20% of those women are under the age of 25, just like i was as a 19-year-old young person coming into the organization. so i have an obligation and a responsibility to pay it forward, to make sure that the mentors who supported me, who instilled within me, poured within me their wisdom, their best practices, their "don't do this," i have to do that for a new generation of young women >> really see changes that she's making at the naacp which i grew up calling it the n-double-a-cp. now the naacp. in terms of bringing white people in to the organization? i've been following this organization since i was a teenager, that would have been unheard of then secondly approving of gay marriage when black churches still overall quite opposed to it. >> white membership has always been accepted. a lot of peep carry those cards that are not african american. but i think the point is to make it more inclusive. let people know that we're not just about race or issues that you can agree with. that being said, i do support activism and to have a voice out there but as an african american who incidentally happens to be pro life and who is not in support of the gay marriage amendment, there is that part -- organization have voice or other people like me? i think if you're going to represent the african american group as a whole then you need to at least be able to advocate both sides or at least expose everyone to both sides. let people make informed decisions. that's where i fall back. i think it's a great thing, she's young, i believe the president is 37 and it's nice to hear that they keep calling her young at 44. i'm 46 i feel like -- [laughter] i feel like i'm hot to trot now. i think it's a great thing, and the fact that these young women of today need role models, i do it in my community, i'm sure you do as well. but it's a real -- there's desperate need, it falls back to what you were asking earlier about moms, parents, single parents having kids, young. there needs to be more stability and that's how we can participate in that is to give them role models to know that there's more out there than the rap songs and short dresses and going to the club. that there is a future that inevitable for these young women. >> pointed to your predecessor who founded the organization you now run. >> dr. haight was our president for many years, she was an inspiration to many of us, most of us. >> to me, too, by the way. i interviewed her a number of times. talked to her afterwards she was a great teacher. >> brilliant woman. outstanding in her mind. just amazing person. roslyn is a special person, roslyn is the type of woman who not only gets the work done, she is inspiring. she inspires me. if you ever heard her speak you will just be -- you will say, who? she is amazing. i am happy for her the naacp that they were wise enough to have a chairwoman like her leading them in to the future because we have seen she's taken it in the direction that will make it grow even more. >> how is it supportive of marriage equality resonating in the african american community? >> you know, i think it was a very courageous stand for the naacp to make that point. i think the organization is knowledgeable of fact that this is an issue to some degree up for debate within the african american community. >> your thoughts quickly? >> i've with a reporter for years as white woman before i had kids of color. the next generation being engaged this way, it's going to be all good and her creating that dialogue for everybody is good for us. >> we got to go. sorry, we're out of time. that's it for this edition of to the contrary. please follow me on twitter @bonnie erbe and @tothecontrary and check our website, pbs.org/ttc, where the discussion continues. whether you agree or think, to the contrary, please join us next time. >> funding for "to the contrary" provided by: the cornell douglas foundation committed to encouraging stewardship of the environment, land conservation, watershed protection and eliminating harmful chemicals. additional funding provided by: the colcom foundation. the wallace genetic foundation and by the charles a. frueauff foundation. for a copy of "to the contrary" please contact federal news service at 1-888-343-1940.
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