And a proudyear member of the bench of the Northern District of program is something that jeff rosen and i have been thinking about and dreaming about for some time. We worked together on a number discussion and the in ourcial Independence Society was missing a piece, a lot of focus on constitutional vision powers and the role of judges and all that. What has been missing is who are judges . What is the human side of judging . What we are trying to do this evening is begin that conversation and shed some light on it. I will introduce the panelists and jeff for introduce our comoderator. Youre on stage, we have judge Charles Breyer and been a judge on that bench since 1998. To the left is justice guzman. Ary well regarded and successful member of that court. , we willcond panel hear from two individuals. Itting down in the front i will be joining the panel as well, but to get right to the business, this is my friend, jeffrey rosen. Thank you so much. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen to the National Constitution center on the road. Centerional constitution is the only institution in america rated by the u. S. Congress to educate americans about the constitution on a nine a nonpartisan basis. Today, bringing together judges of different perspectives to educate people. I must put in a plug for the interactive constitution which brings together the top liberal and conservative scholars to write about every quality of the constitution describing areas of agreement and disagreement. We were here last week for the we the people podcast and around the country. This mission of bringing together citizens, judges, scholars and students from different perspectives for education and debate is a meaningful one and by participating, im thrilled you are part of it. This is a Remarkable Group of judges and a special honor for all of us that it will be michaeld by the great lewis. And he isback americas leading storyteller and there is no one who is better able to reveal the human stories behind the most complicated and meaningful political dramas of our time. He is recently the hosts of the bestselling umpire contest. You as well cannot wait to with the human side of judging. Please welcome michael lewis. Thank you. Can you hear us . Here because i met jeremy one of this podcast and the episodes was about judges and examining the judges that might undermine the authority that might make their lives difficult. Otherwise, i know very little about the law except to run from it. Would like to start i would like you to introduce yourselves and what you do. The federal judges making me to first. I had the great privilege and pleasure serving on the Supreme Court of texas. It is the highest civil court in texas. I have been on the court since 2009. I started on an Appellate Court and initially entered the judiciary as a judge appointed by then governor bush. My journey has been marked as the first latina in harris and first latina elected to statewide office in texas and it is a job i enjoy. More votes than anyone has in the history of texas. Texas elects judges that are riddled with all con and a few pros. Gogetterhe highest in the history and the state of texas for any office at any time. Chuck. For you,. I thank my lucky stars my first case was one that who had a rosenthal what was called the Oakland Cannabis club and it ultimately went to the United StatesSupreme Court today prosecuted people who had manufactured and distributed marijuana. Hadurned out that rosenthal been authorized by the city of oakland to be the official grower of marijuana. He oughtdecided that to be prosecuted for this thing called the supremacy clause and he was prosecuted in my court. It was the first case that i had ,s a trial judge and believe me i thank my lucky stars that i was not up for election. It turns out he was convicted to one day inhim. Ail, credit for time served that was that. Me and theted for aboutating discussion what does the independence of the judiciary do for the judge who does not have to be concerned about being popular . The most that you got votes, that is the best thing i heard about the election process, but i would be concerned and there are a lot of examples that we can give, even california. Who renders unpopular decisions and then are voted out not because that judge did not do his or her job, but because that judge rendered it unpopular. Stress. L give you do what i did with jeremy. Obvious how a person becomes a judge and the social role is so powerful, once you are the judge, that is all you are, but once upon a time you were little kids with other ambitions in life. Could you just start by explaining how you become a judge, how this happens and is there anything in your past that has led up to it where it made a lot of sense . Everybody has different paths indians, i, but think there are people sitting in the audience that know they are wanting to be a judge and that is their goal. It really wasnt my goal. I did not see myself in the judiciary. There was a lot of hard work and indian, public service. As a young lawyer, i started on an Agreement Committee and there were a lot of ways i engaged with the community. I have four or five people come to me and say you ought to apply for this job. They already had 30 applicants for this particular vacancy, so i thought why not go ahead and do it . Do it because it was an opportunity and you have to take those risks and so i did. I think any lawyer sitting into , he said he could do that better. That is what they say my court all the time. Forward to what youre doing, i grew up in a house and my father told me to run as fast as possible. How did you get interested in the law . That is a great question. Im from a very workingclass background, but yesterday i was at the airport and it was late and i walked in the ladies room and i see the custodian. Andis on her knees cleaning im thinking about coming to be interviewed by the michael lewis. Andought about my mother one generation away from that life and she was a custodian at the university of houston where all her kids went to college so it kind of came back to me. That is my background, so when i thought about the law, why do i want to be a lawyer . For me, it was to make a difference, to really go back and engage with people that grew up like i did who are invisible. Lawyer ine them as a ways that other people wouldnt. So it was social justice that interest you. Trucks, how did you get into this chart, how did you get chuck, how do you you get into this . [no audio] out and i wanted to go see if i could actually make it as an actor in the problem was, you would be drafted, so my father who was conservative in that regard said you better [indiscernible] at the end of the first year, i was really unhappy. Did not like it, did not like what they did will stop did not find it interesting and said im quitting they did. Did not find it interesting and said im quitting. [no audio] clerk to a work as a personal injury lawyer . Lawyer . Depositions and trials and i thought this is fabulous. You write the play, act in the play, produce the plate and there is generally some kind of audience. Indeed, i have to tell you what i would say to people and i think to really answer your question, what does it take to be a judge . It takes a lot. It cannot be downplayed. Look amongtakes a other things. Among other things. I think i had somebody different experiences, i was watergate prosecutor, a defense lawyer for 25 years. Of things ands those experiences that i had, i greatly think i was able to be a judge. I told all students you will have a lot of opportunities, take the path not traveled because it will make you a different person and what you want to be as a judge, it is great to have different experiences. It is great to have your experience. It is great to be able to relate to people, especially as a trial the only waynd youre going to relate to people is different experiences. What year did you get into it . [no audio] has the environment in which you are judging changed notice note noted this noticeably . [no audio] that would be more destructive of the rule of law than that, so im alarmed by. My click here, they will not do that. My colleagues will try my colleagues, they will not do. Hat sto are there different pressures . N you there an you worried about Different Things . The conversations have changed. I became an appellate judge in about 2001. I wrote an opinion, maybe the newspaper picked it up in houston and that was it. It, itnted to criticize is there. Twitterake up and go to and there it is. Stress,ge, that great so im being criticized in kentucky or wherever. Tweet . You yes. Do you . I have no social media skills. I would not even know how to do it. I have told my son to connect the telephone. It is terrible. Anything, but do i will tell you that the justices are really discouraged from engaging in social media. Weeks just for four traveling, having a great time and we decided as a group not to read the paper, not to watch tv. It is a good idea to detach yourself. Also an argument for being to too two detached detached. It is frowned upon. It is a different tuition. That means you are an elected official. What is the argument for . It gives the public and insight into the judiciary. It may be at an alltime low, it certainly is among minority communities. Civics education, people just dont know who is on the Supreme Court, how many judges. Their idea of judging is judge judy and so when you were on twitter, when you are accessible, the public gives an insight that they otherwise would not have. They see the process, hear your voice. All of the arguments are on the web. You can tune in live. Theres a tshirt that says if my math doesnt say it, then my face will. Face,ly work on the stoic but again, it is the public having an opportunity to see their courts at work and understand what kind of questions we asked. Weve had issues coming up involving gay marriage or religious issues. The public gets to see what they are asking. That, do you feel about chuck . Im in favor of cameras in the courtroom. Very disappointed that the prop broadcast. Was not that was the greatest the americanhat public could have had. Regrettably, it wasnt broadcast. The ninth circuit broadcast argument. I think it is a good idea. There are concerns, privacy concerns or concerns about protecting witnesses, but you address it on a casebycase basis. You dont have an ironclad rule. Saying how is that effecting or lives . Are you from the receiving end of hostility and pressure that you wouldnt have been . Is part of the job and the public the right to this the agreement. In fact, we should listen to voices that are different. I wish as a society we engaged in more conversation with people but onet think like us, thing that came from this idea that the public doesnt have a lot of confidence in the judiciary was a summit on together in texas and it is a summit, the theme was the imprisoned bias and so i invited the professor to come down. It was a Supreme Court initiative. We had about 400 or 500 stakeholders, prosecutors, judges right after the seven Police Officers had been killed in dallas. Of thosee wife of one Police Officers there had some of the folks that had experienced the police brutality, a man who spent 20 convicted, soly that is how the judiciary can respond to concerns about confidence in the Justice System and so that was one thing i did in texas. We are out of an earlier era where the judge could hide and no one paid attention to who he was as a person and you cant do that anymore. Specifically,e this is one of the things we explored on the podcast which is everyone is aware of human error. Everyone is aware that they are cognitive bias. Have you had to adapt to your own ability . Have you had training in cognitive bias . Jeremy fogel was a great emphasis on put an making judges aware of and we now have videos that we show jurors and give them examples of implicit bias so they are aware of it. [no audio] so that people are aware. , duirony of implicit virus believe in implicit bias . Of course not. The problem is it is implicit and you have to make people problems and i think that is something that the court is now very aware of and want to be honest. What kind of training do you get for being a judge . What do people do . How do you learn how to do it . Are you given the rope and you just sit in the chair and start doing it . Most judges you go away for a week and you do that. I went back to try to the a better apologize better appellate judge. I think judges have to work at it and part of every state has been mandatory training, continuing education that you do. If you are a smart judge, you recognize what you dont know and you ask the right people, do and continued to improve yourself and the one we do that is ask a lot of questions. Have errors back to you so you can see the mistakes and improve . And to burys a tendency some of these mistakes. I think there are a lot of types of feedback and instruction. One of the great resources you have are the college of your court and if you lucky enough to be in a collegiate court where we will have lunch frequently for five times a week together where we discuss problems where you can walk down a hall and go into another judge chambers and say what do you think about this . It is that constant feedback from other people that give you an insight and change your behavior. Extraordinarily viable, but only as valuable as ,aving a bench that is diverse that will make you aware of the of myent problems because life. It is a great contrast because i stop because i want an incentive. Story of howarkss she was arrested in birmingham. Arrested in San Francisco and i guarantee nobody in San Francisco that i was aware of injustice, so you have to have a diverse bench. You have to have people that have different experiences because that is how you learn and it changes your behavior. Getting back to the original has anyone ever pointed out a mistake you made where you went, that is a mistake . Yes. I sentenced somebody, this may. E interesting, it may not be i sentenced somebody to whatever it was, it was a lengthy sentence. As soon as it came out of my andh, i knew it was mistake i walked off the bench and i got to the door and i turned to my courtroom deputy and said, bring him back tomorrow. I want to change the sentence. The law is, you have to look at the law. The law is, you cant change it after you have left the court. You are not allowed to change your mind . It is called sentencing remorse. You cant do it. But i did it anyway. This is terrible. Theed in my courtroom was United States attorney at that time, bob mueller. You may have heard of him. He is sitting there and i am changing the sentence, right . Just change it. I meant to say 38 months, not 48 months, whatever it was. And i walked off the bench. A week later i saw him in the elevator and he said, that was very interesting. Very interesting. Some question whether you had jurisdiction to do that. I said, i can understand reasonable minds might differ on that. You know what . We are not going to appeal you, he said, as you came out with the right answer. I made that mistake and bob my mistake. Ected have you ever had a moment where you realized something you had done, you wished you hadnt done . There may be those moments that make him more frequently on the Appellate Court. We dont aside these cases in a vacuum. Briefs, the oral arguments, lawyers presenting cases, you have your colleagues that way in, you have law clerks out of law school with great ideas about what the law is. Conversationsave and you have an opportunity, you can issue an opinion. Can file a measure for rehearing. We dont have remorse about these things. You can actually change, and the court has in the past, and i have in the past changed my minds on rehearing. Infallible. Ot there are times when you got it wrong and that is when you see those rehearings granted. We will open this up to the audience for questions. If youve got something you would like to ask, there are microphones on both sides and we will take questions. You are sitting down with someone who wanted to be a judge and you had to evaluate whether they were suited for this. What would you look for in a person . What makes someone good at it . In my view, a commitment to public service. Andmmitment to fairness impartiality. There are certain skill sets, ideally if you would be a trial judge you want someone who has been in the courtroom. I think about the story because early different in the 1990s, my first jury trial by myself, i was so nervous. It was in a small rural county in texas and the judge says to the opposing counsel, mr. So and us backgoing to take and we are going to read some scripture and pray before closing arguments. You can join us or you can stay right here. The judge and i went back and we prayed and i won the jury trial. That is how different it was in the beginning. You couldnt do that now and you wouldnt want to do that now. You could back then. Importante things are in addition to having the lord on your side. And i dont know much about that, to be truthful. Have theou have to ability, and a willingness, to make decisions. Im talking about basically a trial judge. If you dont like making decisions, if you are one of these people that says come on the one hand there is this end on the other hand is this and i dont know, we are paid to make decisions. We are there to make decisions. That is number one. Number two, dont have an agenda. Just listen to the evidence. I cant tell you how many times my mind has changed after listening to the evidence. It is just great. Why i love my job, and i do love it, it is because it is exciting, because it is filled ish unknowns, because it intellectually interesting, because it can make a difference in peoples lives. It really can. All of that fits as long as you have the temperament to make decisions and dont become so invested in your opinion that you are not going to listen to what the evidence is. We have someone here. Judge in alameda superior court, retired. The name of the program is the human side of judging. I will ask each of you, what is it to be a humane judge . It to be ahat is humane judge . How do you define it . It is to understand what ever , real has consequences human consequences, and to appreciate those consequences. It doesnt mean you are guided by those consequences, it means you understand it. Every case i have had, a defendants family by and large has been severely impacted by the sentence i impose. Frequentlynocent, just another set of victims. It is important to un