Wilbur ross in contempt of congress for refusal to comply with subpoenas. Chairman cummings and Ranking Member jordan, we are delighted that you are here. Anything you brought in in writing will without objection be relevant to the record. I now recognize the distinguished chairman from maryland, mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings thank you, mr. Chairman. Andou, Ranking Member col cole and mcgovern. Thank you for holding this meeting this afternoon. I support the proposal because this resolution to hold attorney general barr and sec. Wilbur ross in contempt of congress is necessary to preserve the integrity of this body. And of the United States interests. We constitution mandates. Onduct a census every 10 years a thoughtful, fair and accurate count is critical to ensuring that we properly allocate funding and congressional enforcement. For more than a year the Trump Administration has stonewalled the Oversight Committees investigation into the real reason commerce secretary wilbur for the firstg, time in 70 years, to add a Citizenship Question two the 2020 census. Secretary ross testified under oath in front of congress that he added the citizenship solely to help the Justice Department and the Voting Rights act. But we now know that claim was nothing but a pretext, that in fact the Supreme Court said that. Our committees investigation uncovered evidence that secretary ross launched a secret campaign to add the Citizenship Question within days after he assumed his post. We learned that secretary ross ignored warnings from experts inside and outside the Census Bureau including the bureaus chief scientist. They said that they told him that adding a Citizenship Question would be costly and harm the accuracy of the census. Our investigation also revealed that secretary ross spoke with attorney general sessions, steve bannon, and chris copart. Contrary to his testimony before the congress, the Commerce Department conjured up the Voting Rights rationale to hide these interactions. Asked for documents from the department of commerce and department of justice when we were in the minority in april and may of 2018. Both departments ignored us. When i became chairman i renewed these requests on behalf of the committee and since then the administration has engaged in a purposeful effort to obstruct our investigation. And i do not use the word obstruct lightly. The departments have refused to provide key unredacted documents that we need to understand the truth about why they really made this decision. Instead produced thousands of , pages that were largely unresponsive, heavily redacted or publicly already available. When they let us interview witnesses, they ordered the witnesses not to answer more than 500 of our questions. Secretary ross even refused my request to meet with them to work it out. As a result, on april 2, more than three months ago, after a bipartisan vote, the committee subpoenaed the documents including a secret memo that the department of commerce wrote about the Citizenship Question and then gave to the department of justice. To departments have admitted us that this memo exists. Produce thisse to document and many others. Last month, the Oversight Committee passed a resolution to hold attorney general william barr and secretary wilbur ross in contempt of congress. That vote, by the way, members of the committee was bipartisan. , however, many of our republican colleagues apparently support the Trump Administrations refusal to comply with our duly authorized subpoenas. They claim that we were interfering with the supreme decision on this issue. That argument never made sense since we launched our investigation in 2018. More than 10 months before the Supreme Court even took up the case, but even if you accept that misguided argument, the Supreme Court cases now over. So that argument is gone. The president announced last week that he would no longer pursue adding a Citizenship Question to the census. However, in the same speech, the president admitted that he wanted citizenship data to implement partisan gerrymandering of legislative districts. The president s statement contradicts secretary ross sworn testimony to congress that the only and sole reason the Trump Administration wanted this data was to help the Justice Department enforce the Voting Rights act. The departments of justice and commerce were engaged in a campaign to subvert our laws. And the processes that congress put in place to maintain the integrity of the senses. So we need to understand how and why that happens, in order to pass reforms to ensure that it , does not happen again. I urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to put the attorneyns to hold andral bar and barr secretary ross in contempt of congress. I would asked the committee to expeditiously pass this legislation. With that i yield back. Mr. Chairman i recognize the gentleman from ohio. No one is stonewalled. The department of justice, and commerce are cooperating, about theCitizenship Question on 2020 census. The administration has produced to the committee 14,000 pages departmentmmerce 70,000 from the justice , department and secretary ross voluntarily testified for over six hours this spring. Several administrative witnesses daylong transcribed interviews, providing information for the investigation. In fact, the committee expected to have another interview this month. In all that testimony, six hours with the secretary and all the transcribed interviews all of it , undercuts the conspiracy theories about the administrations decision to have the Citizenship Question on the census. We have no testimony, none to support shadowy political operatives, senior white house officials conspiring to use the census for improper purposes. The real question is simple. Why dont the democrats want to know how many citizens are in this country . Said this no one disputes the idea that we should know how many inhabitants in you country are citizens know the easiest way to figure that out . Ask a question on the census. Imagine that. Ask anyone, on the district, the street, do you think we should ask on the census if people are citizens of this country . Every Single Person you talk to will say, sure, arent we doing that already . And would say yes, we have done it in one form or another for 200 years. The United Nations says we should do it. All other countries do it. The idea that they dont want to know boggles my mind. The ruling was narrow. The Supreme Court did not say asking the question on the census was wrong. They said it was completely appropriate for the government to elicit citizenship information on the census. I believe we need to ask the question on the census. I applaud the president for his work to ensure that we know more about citizenship of our country more than ever before. Given recent events, the contempt resolution, and the investigation frankly, has been rendered moot. Despite this, democrats are rushing this contempt resolution, contempt of congress is one of congress most powerful tools and should be wielded responsibly. This is not a responsible use of that authority. This is an attempt to delegitimize the Citizenship Question. Something that frankly, everyone thinks we are already asking because we are and everyone thinks we should continue. It is pretty noncontroversial. Consider this. The oversight and Reform Committee has legislative jurisdiction over census. If democrats wanted to remove the question, they couldve marked up delegate holm esnortons bill. No hearing on that bill. They want to give this one contempt instead. I would urge the committee devoted against it. I yelled back. Mr. Chairman i see you submitted an amendment. Would you like to testify on that amendment now . If that is appropriate for the chair. We have five minute five amendments. We offered them all in committee. Mr. Chairman one amendment. They are all facts. One says the number of documents i just described and the fact mr. Gore voluntarily appeared before the committee. The other says the attorney general and secretary of commerce continue to engage with the committee. We have witnesses coming later this month. The investigation is ongoing. The last two are the most important, to reiterate what we said. We offered all these in committee. These are just facts. A Citizenship Question is asked by dozens of countries around the world, and the United Kingdom and United Nations recommends it. Resolves amendment that a Citizenship Question is not new and has appeared on 1820 to 1950from and every Community Survey from 2005 to the present. We have been asking this but somehow now we cannot. Voted down a partyline vote and i would respectfully ask the committee to include them. Mr. Chairman with reference to the amendment i am sorry, tom. How did i miss you . I have been very uncharacteristically quiet but i need to be louder. Let me ask you by way mr. Jordan, because i want some of the facts that you raised in the record. How many pages has the Justice Department produced to date . 17,000. An the Commerce Department . Mr. Jordan 14,000. Mr. Cole has the Justice Department made officials responsible for transcribing the testimony . Mr. Jordan yes, mr. Gore and others. We have more witnesses scheduled. Mr. Cole has the Commerce Department made any officials available . Quite a lot of information has been forthcoming to your committee. Mr. Jordan that is the way it is supports to work. Mr. Cole this one puzzles me for a lot of reasons. Are the negotiations going on right now between justice i should ask both of you this. You would know probably better than anyone else. Whether there are ongoing negotiations now between commerce and committee . [indiscernible] i guess they are referring to amendment 4. 4 talks about the idea [indiscernible] this amendment, the department of commerce has produced thousands of documents, that are redacted, already public. But it has refused to produce any of the unredacted key documents identified in the committee subpoenas, including. Mails about secretary ross [indiscernible] very important document. We have already lost a year of getting the census up and going, and through this process, and we have not been able to get the document. They know what we need. They we have narrowed it. They do it they usually do with this administration. They send a whole bunch of documents that are not the documents that we want and they know what we want. They know they exist. And by the way, as the Ranking Member just said the Oversight Committee debated this, a similar amendment on june 12, and we rejected it on a bipartisan vote. On amendment number five. This is the one that as a clause stating the department of justice has been cooperative with the investigation including submitting 17,000 documents. This again is misleading. The department of justice has produced thousands of documents, they are redacted, already public or nonresponsive. But doj has refused to produce unredacted edocuments. For example, they refused to produce a secret memo, a handwritten note that was handdelivered from commerce to doj. The Oversight Committee already debated a similar amendment on june 12, and rejected it on a bipartisan vote. , and alsoyou proceed the courtesy to mr. Jordan on his amendment. Lets question him with respect to his amendment. Bothgo back to questioning our distinguished witnesses with reference to their testimony. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I am sorry if i missed that. What are we doing right now mr. Chairman . All five. Add theld just secretary himself came and testified under oath for six hours. I figured that is the best way to get information from the department. Talk to the secretary himself who was over there for six hours answering every members question. With all due respect, if i might, the secretary came screaming and hollering, he did not want to come, and when he came im not knocking this, but it happened, he took about four bathroom breaks, each one of them was 30 or 40 minutes, 25 minutes, 30 minutes, take that time off. I just wanted to be clear. I am not knocking him. We get older. [laughter] i am old myself. [laughter] i understand that more than i care to. [laughter] to my age, not yours, mr. Chairman. Mr. Jordan, did the president exert executive privilege over documents pursuant to subpoena on april 2 . Has that been the basis for contempt resolution . Did the federal judge uphold . Exactly right. On april 2 the subpoena, they exerted executive privilege, which they are entitled to do. I do not know what more the they can do. Documents they are allowed to give, they give. They testify for over six hours, we can get those, they exert privilege, they had carried out business, thats the way its supposed to be. Maybe instead of focusing on citizenship you know how many hearings we have had an actual census process . Zero. Maybe instead of this singular focus on asking a question that everyone in the country thinks we should already ask and have been asking for 200 years, maybe we should figure out how the census will work and make it work well. To get it in for the record, how many times has the Citizenship Question been listed on a decennial census from 1820 to 1950 . Every time. 19702000 . Every time. And the American Survey from 2005 to the present . Any time every time. A and the u. N. Recommends Citizenship Question as a best practice . The group you and i always do not always like, yes they do. I would assume so, but your view, you think this is premature because there are ongoing negotiations to be bringing this before congress . This will put us in a legal situation as an institution. Into those things unless i am absolutely sure i am going to win because it weakens the power of the institution. Go intotution, if we court and fail. The courts are respectful of the division of power between the institutions. These are never slamdunk cases. Ask prefer, usually will over and over again, have you really worked as hard as you can to work this out . They do not want to be in the position of making these rulings. You are exactly right. This is premature at best. Even the Supreme Court in their 54 decision stopped it on a technical reason. I would argue republican independents across this country, everybody wants us except democrats in congress. With all due respect you dont need to hear a rebuttal. I just want to make sure the truth comes out. I heard that. Clear, none of these amendments would actually abbey Citizenship Question to the form. That is not what you are intending to do . We cant do that. Only the Commerce Department and administration can add to the form. These are statements we offered we think make the resolution they are just facts, the truth we wanted in the resolution. I note it does not include any conversation about the reductive nature of the documentation which has been submitted, nor the fact that since 1950 there has not been a question on the census. Is that right . This amendment is highly misleading. Ip question has not been on the form in 70 years. Correct. To my point in the short form used for every american has not included that for 70. That is not reflected anywhere in the amendments i note. No, i dont see it. Thank you. It is reflected in the amendments. 1950. From 1820 to forms, ity on other has been on those forms since that time. We spell out exactly the way it has been done. I find myself agreeing with mr. Jordan. I was not confused when i read it. Whether or not it began in 1980, the fact he mentioned it let me to believe it was not included. They had to go to the next theg, the longform, then american Community Survey. Two of youd that the know this issue well. But i believe i can go back home to georgia and ask every man and woman on the street about what is going on here in Congress Today and they would say it is about whether or not we can include a census question. Then it talks about citizenship and maybe that is just unheard of and we should not involved in that. That is what congress is working on. The value i find in the amendments is that it clarifies what is absolutely confusing to so many of my constituents about a process the house is going through. We just did not do resolutions that often. For folks to have thought a court settled this already and for congress to still working on it, it is confusing. Offered any amendments to my knowledge. But we could add the language. Amendment number four, secretary of commerce has produced over to000 documents responsive april 2 meeting concluding on june 3, 2019, some documents were redacted and the administration claimed privilege for those. Chairmans point is that these amendments are misleading, and if my testimony is that there is misleading information in the Public Domain needs to be cleared up, it would seem that we could improve these amendments, if that need be done to address exactly this issue. I could g