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You can keep in touch with us on social media at housing works bkf and sign up to give our newsletter to you every week tell you about reading, concert and awesome events that we have whatting every night here at house works. Thats great thats all you have to know about housing works and ill introduce two wonderful authors get started with the launch of life in code. Ellen wrote her First Computer Program many 1978 with a 21year program and essay and boobs are landmark works describing social, emotional and personal effects of technology shes author of two novel by blood a New York Times notable book and the bug, a runner up forked award. Her memoir host the machine during the internght first rise became a colt classic new life in code a personal technology tells continuing story of thest call world as experienced while living in midst of more than two two decades base in the San Francisco our second conversationalist is manush host of note to sell and tech show about being human from wnyc studio and a new search answers to life and experiment and conversations with listeners and experts and won numerous wades for her work including four of the new York Press Club in 2014. From the new York Press Club in 2013 alliance for women in media named her outstand host she lives in Brooklyn New York and author of board and bril yngts and camera ready a new rand of applause. [applause] thanks melissa. Okay fan girl moment is happening right now. This was my fantasy ellen that we sat down in a cafe chatted about your become and you guys can listen in if you want to. Because the note so self team i have to thank my producer for bringing this, coming in and i have my version with with all of the postit notes and everything she came in shes like, oh, my god you guys were all women team i should add we have to read this book and we did, and we talked about it and marveled over it and couldnt wait to have you on the show which we did last week which was we got a lot of amazing feedback from its my pleasure talking to you be a great conversation. Now i want to ask things about things we didnt get to talk about this idea that your book is compilation of essay and ideas. How do you begin youre prolific how did you go about were you like what one, okay that prediction really did come true lets put that in there. How did you decide to do this . My editor said only your best work. So that only would mean easier to pick which one. Idea was to have a stop motion history and so i look the for things that i wrote earliest i thought well this is still pert innocent say anything and i did that moving forward looking at the different pieces discarding this one and that one until i felt we had a something that made sense over time. Where parts in the middle are a poor, discussion of Artificial Intelligence which takes about a quarter of the book. Most pieces are also written in a sequence overtime but they make their own story i hope and theres a section called three stories about what we owe the past. Now, lighting about about technology and the i thought it was important to visit and say well, look, look at things that happened in 19 0. This is how i learn to have my skepticism in 1972 were get feedback here is that a problem there . I think 63. So i thats how we came about and then i moved it up to the president coming to the end piece which is bomb to a farewell. I thought uhoh here we go again. And this time the boom is not going to crash. Its going to slowly deflate but it is now what i feared it would be, when i started in 1994, moving into the intimacy of our lives and there we have it. Technology is not leaving that deep inner place in our human being. So you actually i want to read you a quote you say is that you with knew that tech would intrude into the intimities of our lives but you could not know that so many people would be delighted at that changed state of the existence. What did you mean by that . Thats in a piece called while i was away and again ill give credit to it Shawn Mcdonald because there was whole in time sequence while i wrote the novel by blood he said is there an essay but thats a good question to ask a writer and there was, and i peshed the book. And these were things i had feared all of this time and what sort of things . That the internght would intrude ive been talking about privacy and intruding in our intimate live and our social lives and changing politics. But then i looked at it and said these are things i feared and people talk about fearing and being concerned about whn go about their life as if concern and fears did not exist. It seemed to me it seems to madness of our time that we on one hand now were being surveyed and bits of information about us down to what we like for dinner are being traded. Equifax on the other hand i like everybody. So strange if you look back and say theres, theres where it happened or is it more of line the frog and per pot that were all simmering and suddenly oh, my gosh. 1998 [laughter] no. Theres this. New here. No 1996 was the first boom growing. And despite its despites always being sad it took place in Silicon Valley a lot of it happened in San Francisco the kind of revolutionary, free wheeling, cipher punk energy was in San Francisco. So i walked this girl up by 1998 the web had really taken over economic life. There was a a movement called or a trend called intermediation so it was you and theres the web and all of those people who had helped you figure out what to do in between agent and brokers, librarian, journalist experts of every variety were not to be trusted out for thelses boundaries. And come to us on the web. It was at that moment that Mainstream Media is not to be trusted and this was a way to draw people directly to the web thats where you get your needs satisfied. Now, of course, the interface is you have on the web were scan but you were with trapped in one website with no way of knowing the bias behind whatever they were showing you so at that point okay theres a who whole r of the middleclass and expertise that has been just been removed or displaced or mistrusted. And this i think is the beginning of something different. When i saw it a background of brilliant sky blue with writing on it and airy white letters weird to have me eread to you . No, they havent read it yet. [laughter] it said this is the sign nowed world really does revolve around you. What does that mean for us now to me i read your book i was like oh, when i god she called instagrandmother a decade ago you saw this was coming this personalization but you also not only saw the wonders of it in the i can get gluten e free indian food delivered in 20 eu7bs which is but also there were there was underbelly or for every wonderful thing that happened another side to it. I did i didnt foresee negative theres one coming all around me and slowly dawning on me not obvious exactly and more obvious i thought the and wrote about it. So how can i say this . I just knew that this was going to happen. I didnt foresee anything, and what i when i read that back again and reading over the work i want im really sorry this happened. And i look and didnt see instagram i didnt see twitter. The fought machine of yiewrs but im really sorry that i did see it coming and there were thing in the book now that i wrote i hope im wrong about this. Like what . Worried about stock market. But in the way that the first one and up, up, up with i have to get this this game. And the the shoe shine boy of the depression even shoe shine boys are buying stock to make it late and may feel that very last grass and theyre one who suffer it post because therm putting in their 401 k not their extra billions. Well, im afraid theyre going to have Something Like that again. But litigate my fear here is that these companies dont want to go public anymore. Theyre staying private. So its it a even more way is an outsider game going on. I dont know what defect that will have on larger public xepght to keep very few companies who make no money whatsoever were about to oldy ball matter or Revenue Growth matters but not profits. Lost 645 million in the last convert and they were doing better. [laughter] so this is what i worry about. That there are people who have enough money to afford to lose it Financing Companies fueling their tremendous Growth Without any natural break in terms of are they making money . Will this be a bipt to the public usually a company what goes public has to stands on its own at some point. Interesting to me theyre playing longer game right with uber as your example well we know right now its about team gene how you get a car ride but really what drivers are doing are training machines to eventually talk us to a wrorld where we dont it need drivers uber essentially wants to open the way you get around. Is that a shift in how Silicon Valley always worked, are they looking ten, 20 years were they always looking that father . This relates to something in Artificial Intelligence that i would like to talk to you for many years the moon artificial intebltion was to create a humanoid robot in fear was we wont be able to tell who is a robot whos a human being and smarter than we are, thats utterly failed time and again it came up against the big problem that human beings have conscienceness and selfawareness or social creatures with emotion that bind up lives so robots turned out to be bachelors degree at that but know whats going on in Artificial Intelligence is a machine to machine interaction. Thats where all of the Machine Learning going and this is what the principle is seeing applied to self driving car take out i call them drierless cars to emphasize what is taken out no belonger whether it drives like a human being they dont want it to drive like human being this car to this car intrx and this to the internght intersection. So Uber Movement is not only a i think of the verge i was going to call it culmination of a trend she saidingly bloc some of the trend in which you remove all a of the areas you know, even the taxi drivers go first but ebber drives go next. And then what were left with is machine to machine interaction so the deep is intense, Artificial Intelligence says well forget human beings were not interested. Were interested in machine to machine intersection. Youre minding me i was in San Francisco taking a list because uber is deleted off my phone i hope everyone is deleted off the poafn. Are you sure yowpght to know this . It is off my phone any disi took a list and man moved to him and he told me what his rent was and him square feet he was getting and wife like the whole thing i thought well you know what in i dont know five, ten, 20 years you qowld not you will not be choosing San Francisco as the place place to get a job, in fact, where in the United States would you as an inti grant or someone where is the toe hold into American Dream as it were. Theres people coming here for it. Desperately coming here for it. Axe drivers are classic case of imrangt problem place to start and earn some money. I take taxis i confess i know who this person is and probably not drunk or stoned and if they had a dui in the last six month they wouldnt be drive and so on no car probably wont luz a wheel and i know what ill be pay ahead of the time so i wont be abducted. Bad experiences with that. Didnt your mother tell you dont get in a car with a stranger. Die depression, though, is it stranger i see on the app it is like, you know well bicking up for stars too. We have a great raining but if you dent give great ratings you will be demote as a passenger. Bad uber rate thats the other rnght you keact really rate fairly. And i take a list to the airport. And i will say the price difference has been extraordinary. Lyft is half the price and how can driving industry is one example we could go down the line, food, and clothes and you know hardware goods, you know just go on down and there it is all the time. Sorry i interrupt you had with my foot note about my driving tell me more. No, we have to go where we go. Can i ask an century question of you. Do you have tech stocks . I do. Because you said in the future so i would think like you have i dont make these choices myself because i learn i actually buy very well with but i cant sell. And my friend who does help me do this who manages all of this for me she said, youre just afraid to take your cards off the table. You really dont ask, dont tell know when to get out. No i might miss something. Line you really bad u should stop doing this on your phone so we go up and down which tech stock to buy. Turns the apple is best performing stock is in the last ten year whether you like apple or not so what is the future . What is going to happen to people needing jobs . Bookstores dont pay all that well now do they . No. Retail people in retail are losing their jobs. Small shops are closing and Big Box Stores are suffering even walmart because people go there and use it as kind of a show room. And then they order from amazon onis line where does this . Op i dont know. This is the future yoct to force. I leave it to someone who is looking at things now and their lifetime 20 years from now and to tell me where they think it is going. You might be around for a while. Were many something awe usome going on. Im getting out the rocking chair. [laughter] so in the near tomorrow future who do you think we should be watching most closely facebook i wrote down the list of things that happened to them in last few weeks. Special counsel robert and theyre investigating russian sporpsed ads theres a hope fake news issue going on. Privacy regulations in europe, and discovered ad buyers to target users with interest like how to burn jews so from the a great month for facebook. Although you have been talking about a lot of those issues for a long time and our show certainly other o the past couple of years has delved into it but it seems were at a moment where the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. Is it just facebook that a little growing pain or were at a bigger moment where we are looking at the society that has been brought by i guess the book five saying no, not oak. Not good enough. Facebook is not going away. This is the most horrible thing to realize uber is not going away. The europeans are doing a preagdz job of smacking arranged which i cant say im sorry about. Apple is not going away. Google is not going away not in the near future but even there is a tech crash these companies have real value and big five are staying. Facebook is the devil. [cheering and applause] tweet that. What else can i say . The whole fake news thing started. With them when right wing said you have these human curator of what is trending news and theyre leaning liberal. Now facebook went oh, no we cant have that. So they fire the humans. And they replace them with algorithm so they look at what was trend and they look the at all of the thing that were people who wereing about and people wanted to have the childhood abduction ring in the podcast of a pizza rhea in nts and this is trending news so removing human, created fake news we have to remember this is where this started. This to push back, i mean, i again just was in San Francisco last week. And i dont think theyre like hahaha at all. Most are them are god at what they did and go to their job and get dry cleaning and go home while theyre at the job and mark i think genuinely seems kind of really does think that he has our best interest at heart. Yes our San Francisco generals calling Mark ZuckerbergSan Francisco general hospital. I dont think anybody involved in this says im going to be, you know, a tbreed did i ogre thats what they do for a living so they are upfront about it. All very well with whatever your startup will do but how will it make me money thats what they ask and what they do. I dont think individuals there are at fault but something arises out of that u group of people and software that is created an entity of itself that they kind of run like a machine. And in the dark. It does thats a very perfect. I dont like facebook for another reason. And this is something ive begun to mourn as soon as it came on, the first okay way back when the first brush of the internet greats thing was people made their own mud pages and we were locked into user interfaces of apple microsoft, windows, and it was such a great relief all of this creativity nothing looked the same okay people had 20 fonts on their screen. So it was fonts living in a christmas sweater land. [laughter] thats right. Ill remember that. [laughter] but then now not everyone is going of it a website, though, whats easier to make one tolls are really simple. But now we have facebook and this is this very tight format in which you express yourself. Not only that but they change format on you. When youre going to express yourself and talk tore people and say what youre interested in look oops now were doing it another way and this is to across the we can with an expert users of the Banking Software oh, try bay tay now youre an i idiot but it works better. It is better but that nice used to have now you have to pay quick books to get it. So i want to switch back tw