Transcripts For CSPAN2 Martin Garbus North Of Havana 20240713

And one particular thing that is featured is secret diplomacy and trial of the cuban spies. A legal lien even though he doesnt look like one. [laughter] he is one of the top trial lawyers an expert at civil and criminal trial litigation who was nearly courtmartialed out of the army and use the opportunity of the army giving him he was giving speeches about sam betty and the desk job that army gave him as an opportunity to springboard to attend New York University at night for law school. Met is how his career started he has appeared before the Us Supreme Court multiple times with civil rights cases in front of Justice Brennan with his 1970 case which it with the rights of people with government entitlements and the due process that could be the most important due process case in the 20th century. The client list includes the cuban poet legendary photographer sally man peter Chavez Nelson mandela, Daniel Ellsberg and he has clients that go from Lauren Mccall to spike lee and Igor Stravinsky and sean connery. [laughter] the list goes on. But spoiler alert this book that we talk about, it ends happily at least for the clients and i want to read something that you say at the end of the book. At the end you go to cuba and attend a childs birthday with many of the descendents and right seeing all of these people who i felt played a role to save the lives of these men is extraordinary i dont recall a richer experience in my professional life. Before we start with this rich professional experience, i want to talk about the case that was weighing on your mind before you took this case and maybe didnt and quite so happily. And that was the jane doe case. Not as famous as the client. Jane doe was a young black woman who was raped and put in Prospect Park 25 years ago this was in brooklyn and they claim that she lied about the rape. And mike maxillary of the daily news called it a hoax. And said that she lied about it. So then we filed a lawsuit against the daily news and its and then owner for libel. We lost the lawsuit. And for 25 years we pressed to the police on the whole question of her lying that whether or not a rape has occurred. Last year they discovered the rapist was a man was in prison for another rape and then admitted. So after 25 years she was vindicated. So just a little aside for a second, there was a film last night which my daughter happen to make dealing with women who were killed in long island and one of the mothers of the daughter the killer is not been found but has the same Extraordinary Police and difference and the fact that in my case jane doe is a black woman the women were workers, allwhite but because they were considered trash , the long island police, the way they dealt with the case was horrifi horrific. But it deals with the jane doe case with the indifference of the police to violence against women. That is another film coming out in july called the Golden State Killer over a period of 20 year years, there were 50 different incidents of rapes and killings and nobody had any idea who it was and then mcnamara wrote a book and found the killer and they were arrested and then he was a cop so these three incidents deal with police indifference to women when they make the claim of rape or violence. And this was weighing on your mind when you decided to take the case which essentially yours was about indifference with the jane doe case but this is the polar opposite. With the cuba five. Yes. It was in excess of government attention on potential. With the cuban five just briefly in the 1980s and 19 nineties the cuban right wing were interested in having the provocation in florida interested in something we call the American Government to come in to do something hostile and destructive sometimes by various rogue operations in the United States those that were killing not only sympathizers of the left in florida but destroying hotels and at one period of time the land craft was shot down and 70 people were killed by various terrorist groups trying again with those provocations and those book deals with the American Government with those people. So in 1990. So there is one part of your book. And what you described as the opera. And then there is the prologue of the long and tortured relationship dating back to the early 19th century really. And then in act number one, in 1986 the cuban government shooting down a plane and that leads us up to the trial. But there was a group did it would constantly fly from florida over cuba and do a variety of things they attempted to drop bombs and leaflets and flew over cuban airspace when it wasnt allowed. Clinton knew about it the American Government tried to stop it miami is a nationstate and a separate nationstate when it comes to cuba so the federal government had very little ability to stop with the cuban right wing and some early elements of the United States and what they were doing with this provocation the result was at one point in time castro entered frustration and they ended up writing the book and what i learned after i wrote the book was some terrific stuff which we will talk about but the plane goes over cuba and the American Government try to stop the plane he flies over cuba with two other people. They intrude on the airspace. He sees cuban makes coming up the other two that are there dont leave the other to get shot down and then 14 people are killed so the case is this particular case of the cuban five where there are allocations of these various cubans were involved. Who are they . There is a dialogue between clinton and castros and the communicator and thats a whole separate story. And that arrangement by a large because the American Government into the cuban right wing that the government of miami with the federal government to be involved there or the State Government has very little inclination to do anything with the acts of terror done by the right wing. So there is an arrangement made whereby members of the government spies had an arrangement with the fbi to infiltrate to the cuban right wing. In the same cubans are blamed for the killing. They dont have the ability to shoot down a plane. But nonetheless over a period of time, they are indicted and ultimately there are our convictions and some spend 16 or 17 years in jail. So i have a very dear friend. And i did not get involved in the chase midway through and there is a resolution of the case which im sure we will talk about. And it is a hunt for finding someone that is responsible for it. It is a hothouse climate. That they have assured me and then to be intent on finding someone to blame for these killings. I think in this era of trump, i think it moves that three levels which is on the ground and the level of politics between cuba and the United States with the Justice System and the effect of the federal government and with respect to trump its not the first time. And with these different places. Ive been down to the south with chavez in florida or california. And all kinds of political cases. And to see now clearly with trump and that selection of judges, we see all that in the cuban case. Show it shows you the last in the way of much of what we see today is very visible today also goes on in the United States for a variety of cases for long periods of time. And just to go back to the original with a trial in 2001 it is pre 9 11 and in the initial the fence try to get the prosecution out of miami that the environment was too hot for the descendents to get a fair trial. Tell us about the venue case. We were talking before hand also a prosecution in memphis when it was initiated and it was similar with the sense they were politically motivated the effort to go after a politician for corruption so the media environment was extraordinary and then nonstop and he was convicted and repealed to the sixth circuit to have that conviction overturned and with the change of venue and when we got that he was acquitted. That means you go from one jurisdiction to another then you cant get a fair trial in that jurisdiction so the change of venue is extraordinarily significant so look at o. J. Simpson for the prosecutor takes the case from los angeles so that whole question of change of venue become significant they try to rule the case out of miami and they failed ultimately. One of the things that happens is you have relatively young defense lawyers trying their cases and after the jury fight one of the defense lawyers for the other defense lawyers but the fact one said that and they are is the conviction with the change of venues that the book deals with various degrees of prejudice and one of the significant things is the amount of money the American Government pours into miami to influence the media. One of the things we detail in the book but it is very visible. With 15 million per year. That was diverted to the miami herald and governmental monies these people wrote articles that were broadcast that were horrifically skewed. Most of that information, i am telling you we learned long after the conviction in 2006 and we tried on the grounds the federal government paid the miami herald and certain people to give stories it was never decided. The jury essentially because the government was paying for it in part and then they were swimming awash incredibly hostile and the government was affirmative building the fire. So may be no surprise the jury convicted. And the seven month trial allegedly they delivered for 12 hours. And they were locked up for 12 hours to make a decision to make it look that they stayed in the jury box but in any event after a seven month trial that they walk in with a predisposition with that complicated case and then the jury decides the case like that. And then the cuba five . Hernandez god a double life sentence and then the change of venue was at the first appellate level which is a threejudge court that reverses the conviction and says more or less that you could go from a threejudge court and take the appeal and go to the entire court 16 judges reversed the lower court and ultimately the conviction so the defendants are in jail and convicted of conspiracy to murder ultimately two life sentences. Lets go back what did hernandez actually do . He did nothing with respect to the murders through the fbi and the American Government and the cuban government tried to infiltrate into the cuban white ring and that information was given for the federal government which stopped a terrorist act against cuba there were meetings with the fbi and the cuban government where information is exchanged that the cuban a legend spies had obtained and then to be charged with the murders. And what happened first the prosecutors refuse to bring any criminal proceedings and then with the prosecution that was three or four years after the event and that they have done anything and left the country but he didnt they all stay there because he had nothing to do with it and then the fourth prosecutor is the guy that brings the charges the other theme in the book the democrat in the era of trump is the whole question of lobbying for judges which the democrats 1980 through 2000 were remarkably indifferent so we see trump focused on it but you have groups like the Federalist Society another right groups support the story because they get involved in the case having to do with the judges what they face in miami. Ultimately the judge that makes the decision said that i have the exact quotes in the book with the United States Supreme Court and that miranda is the second worst case with United States Supreme Court even the Republican Congress did not he becomes a recess appointment and if you look at the judges in this case the federal judges you can see the Federalist Society and republicans who were so clearly focused that the democrats have not and the will rogers quote that i am not a member of any organized Political Party that the failures focused that they were so focused thats where they saw the abortion issues coming from and they recognized the power of the Supreme Court and the democrats 20 or 30 years not total the indifferent but ineffective. When you check over the case. It might have seemed hopeless when a decade had passed in the 11th circuit with the Supreme Court. The two men languishing in prison so why did marty decide to step in . What did he think . What were you going to do . To argue these issues also to learn after the conviction with the federal money and the claim is that it was impermissible to roughly use 15 million a month with a large portion that was used. Now what happened in the case ultimately was a miracle and had little to do with legal skill and you and i both know the story. The incredible piece of information and thats what we thought. But at the end of the day and this story has at all. It has talent and exchanges of prisoner the pope and babies conceived in prison. It has more than that and Penelope Cruz in a film called the network that will be released on netflix in july. It is Penelope Cruz. It has one of my favorite stories and the ghost plane flying over cuba. So you filed a brief. And during this time the cuba five became celebrities in havana. And what that meant to the people of cuba. It is clear that these men were patriotic who had done nothing violent and just tried to stop the violence and that the charges were trumped up. In cuba in the 19 nineties and 2000 or after that and with the pictures of the cuban five throughout the country and to say that they shall return. They became the american equivalent they were great her awake figures and people not committing any criminal act and they were in jail for life. So the cuban five was in havana and in miami where the cuban five where the evildoers. And it was as i said for the long period of time to get the infraction and then to 148 infraction is impossible and altogether if you add up the years from 75 years they were so disciplined and not want infraction that is an extraordinary sense of discipline because you get that infraction so what we did with the cuban five is to make a solitary and that was ghastly and solitary is far different and far worse thats when the iraq war came out and 9 11 and each time there was a National Incident the blame was put on the cubans so they were specifically punished when 9 11 comes about, the iraq war comes about, and then they are taken out of normal prison life to be taken out of solitary input in other conditions so three cells on each side of people that are extraordinarily disturbed who scream all day long and then he lies on the floor and to make themselves. And then to discuss the solitary. And then if youre sitting alone in the cell but these guys never broke or commissioned the infraction. It is a testament the best of men break. And they became that is the maneuver you did to enter the case. And even as your legal representation and the investigation of media and the government and the effort to normalize relationships in the cuba five became the a very important part of that effort so were they central . And any reproach meant unless that cuban five were released and that was a Sticking Point and then senator leahy in one thing that senator menendez of new jersey put on the table was the return of those who was in cuba. Tell the audience who she was. Joanne was accused of murder who escaped and was in cuba. And was given sanctuary. And then to dismiss that rather easily. And to have conversations the congresswoman out in california and was telling me about menendez and the cuban attempts. And she felt very strongly she was one of the people that insisted they need to kill the deal. Its interesting how much the effort to normalize those relationships hinge upon individuals not the policy questions im sure there were but with that cool and irrationally discussed to these particular people and it became much more fraught. And i learned a great deal after the book was written so who shot down the planes . The cuban five did not have the power to do that. And those that ordered the shootdown and the significance of the events. And then one year ago i went to dinner with rose that dinner with castro and to say every great general makes the mistake and he said mine was ordering the shootdown. So he had a personal involvement and had a responsibility and acknowledge that responsibility to order the shootdown. And with that enforcement action and thought he had made a mistake. Made it a very personal issue for him. So its hard to believe for some people as complex without reproach meant with cuba was so much on the cuban side. So when did cuba decide to leave . You mentioned alan gross. We should briefly describe who he was, usaid contractor in cuba and with those Communication Services and arrested by the cubans and convicted of espionage in cuba and was being held in prison in cuba was also a horrific circumstances. And then was there on behalf of the Jewish Community and was given technology. In reality, he was giving technology to cuban dissidents so they communicate. So he allowed them to communicate within cuba and other places. So basically he was in communications with the Jewish Community and as a result those demonstrations on behalf of the community to put pressure on obama. So originally gross said it is convicted and this is what he was sent down to do. That you did not sufficiently warned me of all of the dangers of what happened to me when i went down there, ultimaty he gets a substantial settlement from the American Government. At some point in time gross becomes a very powerful force of the Jewish Community to focus on the anti Cuban Community and then he demonstrated how he had to go to the hospital and then obama insisted on his return claims that he was innocent and the cuban government refused to release him with respect to negotiations even though obama and castro but when they announced the reproach meant they downplayed. There was a word and the day that obama and castro on the phone was publicized by that point to get off the airplane in washington and they are returned to cuba. And finished with prison. At the end of the day it wasnt the law that got the cuban five out of prison. And the pressure that obama was made to feel with other communities as well if he stays there he will die to say he didnt commit suicide in cap the attention it may not have been aware of the dc story and was constantly manipulating the press how horrific the cubans were to him but it was effectiv effective. It really does have at all. And just those issues that were at play or amazing it is like a nonstop parade of characters and then to step back and think to myself is there something about this case that is so unique . Can we look at this like a singular unique case or does it talk about the broader system . I think those incidents that you have it seems like trump invented it but he did not the manipulation to refuse to prosecute and then those general on judges are federalist appointees so whatever one leaves now, those that went into florida and stayed there or the south basically that however horrific the judges are in dc and that we but once you get down south that something very different so the case goes far beyond. So these are on the political level but it really says something much larger than the judicial system in the sixties and seventies the manipulation of judges and prosecutors and people being charged that is part of the american culture. As i mentioned this case is before 9 11 and it is a climate of fear that has developed in that symbiosis with the media and the general public at large and then to think about the extent to which has been replicated in miniature all over the United States. And in this case Joaquin Menendez had his house bombed and had to move out it with the community to be hostile is traditionally the United States and as some of you may know it is a whole complicated case and those ecuadorians getting a 20 milliondollar judgment. I wont go into it but now in new york facing disbarment not only the cuban case are here. And to me to never hesitate that unpopular cause. Early in the book you talk about what you did with Daniel Ellsberg and the copy of the papers were in your home. Yes. I met dan early on. To have the papers simplifying a little he said it would and i said you will go to jail for lifes. This is the nixon. And ultimately he wanted to make sure if he did go to jail for life and then they could release them. So he gave me a set of the papers. And i had them over the years and then we tried to get the papers publicized and of course we failed to do that. And i had them in my house and woodstock but then they knew we had the papers and i was supposed to represent during the trial but i was told he was indicted as were other people who were involved. In the book you talk about being accustomed to be a lawyer through a climate of fear and intimidation. What is that like . How do you keep going through all of that how do you keep picking up a new client tougher than the one before . You get into a rhythm and then with the wineglass and i refer to it in the book three people were killed 80 or 81 upstate new york and the community was furious. And we have to walk up the street and then to walk up the street about five blocks at one point in time. So the federal government wanted to be that escape attempt so they have snipers all over the place and we were terrified as we walked into court but then my job to crossexamine. And the hostility in the court what is extraordinary and then the Police Killed so yes lawyers like involved have issues. [laughter] so you keep going. You have to. I am struck by the fact that you are always taking on a new tough case. We have a few questions from the audience. So one person in the audience wants to know more about the cuban right thing one wing. In large part they are composed of the descendents that left in 59 along with other people who are hostile and i guess Bernie Sanders that they are hostile and sanders talks about the achievement in the allegedly poorers of the administration and there are people. It is a very interesting thing that trump has done in order to encourage that hostility. It is fascinating which people have a pay that much attention to but basically the laws have been passed down so that if your father had a piece of property and 59 and castro took it over you now have a right under recent american law to sue for damages and what that does is encourage not only the hostility against costs one castro but the younger people by a large you dont share that hostility it was a brilliant move by trump. We read the reports of the cuban right wing is dissipating but you say that there are some trends . So the younger people dont feel it so there is a recognition this cuban government is different perhaps than that. Of time where they were equated. I realize how complex all of this is. So the people wanted to talk about following the discussion of the jane doe case about hundreds of native american women who have disappeared and wanted to hear more from you what is going on in the story . I spent a year in pine ridge representing the wounded knee people. That was about 71 72 and then you had women just disappearing. My daughter has two films out about the total indifference and lack of officials of disappearing of rape and murdered women who are seen by the government as a certain class. It could be sex workers or indians or jane doe lesbians. My daughters two films with the police in difference to that. Since your work at pine ridge has there been any change . Youre not on the indian reservation if you ask if it has improved here, in some ways yes and some ways no. What would it take to see improvement . This is going on constantly the jane doe case it took them 25 years. Jane doe raped on a monday there is a guy in the neighborhood who on thursday is arrested on three rapes in Prospect Park. She does a drawing which is incredible of the guy who raped her. The best drawing. It is extraordinary that was raped the following day and then does a drawing of this gay one guy and it is the exact picture and the fact because she is the lesbian and black because all the others were white so they go after the three white rates but not the black lesbian. And if you saw the drawing that she did, i have a copy of it it is an extraordinary drawing. She is a great artist. But in the last five year years, especially in new york and other big cities the emergence of progressive prosecutors and bail reform in new york and increased focus of the me to movement and that we have . And to have a sense of hope the extraordinary story the kathy son was elected District Attorney in San Francisco which by itself is an incredible event. Now he is taking on the police very directly and he and other progressive prosecutors are taking on the police in all different kinds of ways. I will not do that. Its a different generation. Amy klobuchar did not do that. Mayor pete did not deal with those issues. So there are some people dealing with it. Thank you. The book is terrific, too mac and before we conclude that i wanted to read something from the book and ask you to explain a little bit more what you meant about it. This is after youve entered the case and discovered through some reporting by other reporters about the governments payments to journalists to kind of create a concern in miami that kind of lead to the environments where people were convicted, and you file your position and write about your odds. It said of the american legal system that a fear of too much justice quickly shut down the rights of convicted defendants to challenge even legal convictions years later, and i wonder if you can talk about that fear of too much justice. I think some of us are misled by the achievement of the court. Too many of us, myself included, thought social change would be insured by the Supreme Court now and forever. That was an illusion. What brennan is saying i think is that with a larger picture, he is said to be present and awareness that there was an illusion in the case tha indicae referred to it that i was involved in which he said was the most important due process case he hoped and i hoped would lead to something. I forget what the decision was. They have been 68, 70 it ends about that time in 1970 and since then, basically i wrote a book about the rehnquist court. Theyve been pulling back on so many of the achievements and the hope of people like me in the law in the 60s and 70s thinking that the court was today and in the future. You dont need is to show you that its been rolled up the last 30 years. You can have social change and that is a whole different discussion of where the state come from and the question of reliance on the court are not enough and you get into the whole question of the democrats saying heres the deal the last 30 years. To Hillary Clintons court were irrelevant. I am afraid we have to draw the conversation to a close. It feels we could go on for a long time. We have a lot of Great Stories to touch upon. I really want to thank martin. [applause] and his new book north of hava havana. I am a fellow at the Brennan Center for justice. Please keep up with work by signing up for the newsletter at Brennan Center. Org or following us on facebook or twitter. Are you on twitter . I would be delighted to follow you. I think you would have an interesting account. And thank you to everyone for coming. [applause] provided a behind the scenes look at the trump administration. Coming up, when it comes to motherhood, theres an exception that drives me crazy that its a sort of womans problem and how we can approach it. It isnt how do we make more work for parents. Its more okay the more we need to apply to help them fit into the environment and if you are not helping it wasnt designed for me in the first place is actually fixing something that was originally broken. Women deserve workplaces that value than and they need us. We have capabilities and theres a greathereis a great study by l reserve bank of st. Louis which found over a 30 year period. How scary it have been, clara barton, Harriet Beecher stowe and other women had an impact on the civil war. In this portion of the program, he talks about public julia howl the battle hymn of the republic. In the 1860s, she came to washington with her husband who is a piece of work himself and isnt shy about talking about his ability to do great things. She came and was in the backseat while off doing things which was sort of an early version of the red cross. She went with some friends across the potomac and watched the soldiers parade and do their military kind of things and on the way back they were surrounded by Union Soldiers and she was struck by two things one is the fact that they were very young, some not much more than her younger children and they started singing and what they started singing was john browns body. Everybody agreed it was a very arousing marching tune but one that accompanied her was her minister from massachusetts. He said you know. Coming in could do a better job of writing something then that. That is really kind of denigrating to john brown. While, she processed that obviously ended the night when she went back to the hotel where she and her husband were staying, she woke up in the middle of the knigh night, grabd paper and started writing a poem on scraps of paper. The next morning when she got up she made some two weeks but it is basically what it was going to be the battle hymn of the republic. She had published a little bit later in the first of the next year in harpers weekly and it took off. Soldiers were singing as they marched, civilians were moved by its lyrics and its finally bringing to the forefront with the union cause was really about. To some extent he was bringing the union back together. That may be a fine argument that it hardly raises peoples spirits. When she talked about going to set him free suddenly the whole purpose of the war took on a new tone that coupled with the emancipation proclamation sets them off on a new track. To view the rest of talk visit the website, booktv. Org, type his name or his book into the search box at the top of the page. The f Michele Sullivan is with us tonight courtesy of jim and christina got robert and eileen mcnamara. She recently retired as director of the corporate social innovation and president of the caterpillar foundation. The philanthropic arm of the 46 billiondollar manufacturing giant, caterpillar inc. In addition to her 30 year career openparen his leadership positions at the company, she recently helped letransform the foundation into one