Meeting. The author of the book, armed in america, hadraa history of g rights. Thanks for being with us on cspan 3s American History tv. Thank you, steve, for being here. How did the organization come about and why . Well, they came about after the civil war where theres poor marketing by officers during it the war so two officers decided to form the nra for two purposes. One is facilitate, build and grow long rifle ranges and assist markmanship. The florida initial sale so you know was kind of working to get appropriations from government, and they started off with one organization. They grew to 1,700 by 1929. They also are just so you know built on there was an enlish National Rifle association, and they were this supposed to be the american version. The only thing that really differentiated the two to start off with you could start or build a rifle club locally or statewide and you were an nra affiliated club no less. And those clubs would then compete in state, local and national matches. Would the founder of the florida recognize the Organization Today in 2020 . Oh, gnaw at all. The organization was not at all intend today be political in any way. I think you could even say as late as mid1960s that the heads of that organization could not see what the nra has become today. One, it became a Political Organization not focused solely on marksmanship and training the national guard. The second thing i would say is that in the 1950s and 60s the nra officials repeatedly said they would not want to be a partisan organization. However, today as we know they are closely intertwined and bootstrapped to the republican party. And lesing state rights is one of the fundamental foundations of our country but it is a patchwork of gun laws back then and today. And how does that influence or affect the role of the nra . Well, it depends when youre talking about. Early on the federal government was not involved in gun laws whatsoever. Gun laws were either a state or local level, primarily local. State laws would cover broad swaths of areas and maybe concealed carry, minors not shooting guns. But the local laws governed all things that weremileperhour to the town. That continued to be the standard rule of thumb until the 1930s. So which sfat or states passed the first laws and when . Thats a difficult question. I mean if youre looking at gun laws it goes back to the colonies back in the 18th century. You can find or even the early 17th century theres a couple of gun laws in the books. But those laws are basically either about gunpowder storage, where or where you cannot carry a gun, what kinds of weapons you could or could not have. How far you could fire away from and most laws said you couldnt fire or shoot a rifle within a quarter mile of a town. So those were the early gun laws. Those evolved mostly into carry laws, and it was around the mid to late 19th century things really start to become those modern laws youre talking about firearms, dealers, you know, minors, dangerous people, things of that nature that should not have guns. Thats really the modern beginning of gun control as we know it. Can you elaborate how it has evolved over the last 2 plus years . Yeah, the original right isnt what we know it is today. If you look at all the founding documents and everything all of it hints to the idea of the federalized militia debate which was the arguments between state rights and individuals. Well, the constitution and states. George washington obviously wanted more power of state malaysias to control them during war. When it came to the states they were like no, we want full control. The concern of the full constitution was the federal government may have too much control of the states militia emphasis the Second Amendment is more or less a reflection of that fear. The conception of liberty the founders understood was in order to understand liberty you needed to fight for that liberty, you needed to train for that liberty. A well regulated militia does not mean the same as an armed citizenry. It really does mean well trained and multiple commentator militiawise were talking about two important aspects of the militia was train [how they moved their legs. You understand there wasnt good accuracy with those rifles. Every state Supreme Court was kind of faced with this issue where people would challenge a gun law or something would come into court with the criminal law and slowly but surely virtually not everyone but virtually every state court recognized some kind of individual right to arms. That right, however, was surearly limited by whats called the state police power which basically gives the state the power to ledgeilate in health, safety and welfare and that includes preventing people from getting shot by bullets. So that continues to hold sway. That goes into the early 20th century. The nra really understands that kind of interpretation as well. And i believe its 1939 the United States v. Miller which is the Supreme Court first debate on the detail. Its different because they addressed more at the heart of the issue, and its very cryptic but courts after the Supreme Court issued that decision all interpreting it as meaning the Second Amendment protects a collective rights not an individual right. That remained the status quo at least legally speaking. Legally speaking until the District Of Columbia b. Heller in 2008 recognized the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms distinct from the militia as well as connected to the militia. During the 1920s and 30s is when we start the start of gun control legislation in this country. I think more modern as you know today. The categories that are being regulated in the 1920s and 30s are really no different than thalate 19th century, but you start to see more modern type of laws and regulations. Theyre becoming more comprehensive if that answers your question. You said the formations, the genesis of the florida postcivil war how did they view the Second Amendment then versus how we may view it today . Are there differences . Yeah, i think when the florida is first established in 1871 its going to be a hard find to see them talking about the Second Amendment. Its really at the turn of the 20th century they Start Talking about the Second Amendment, and its almost always in the context of what is called the 1911 sullivan law, which is new yorks law, the first law to require someone to get a permit to purchase and own a handgun. Before that there were no such laws other than a brief chicago law in 1908, but it didnt stay in the books very long. And that law is very important because new york at the time was the epicenter of the United States in terms of population, new york city. I think cities 50 to 100, if you take them and add them all up they still didnt equal new york city. Thats how Central New York was to the United States at that time. Obviously they had a big fear. Plus youve got to remember florida is organizing a charter out of new york. Thats where most of their members are and headquarters are at. Thats when they really Start Talking about the Second Amendment. And of course under the auspices of these weapons crossing borders in the 19th century we had the mobber bearings and 20th century we had the mob violence and gang violence. How did that affect this country . I think everybody in the United States agreed there was a problem. The only disagreement was more or less in terms of how do you solve that problem . There was a movement in the United States that more or less looked that the government was passing too many laws to catch the criminals that were lawabiding citizens and that extended to firearms. While everyone agrees gang centers are a problem including the florida the florida believed maybe its being financed by gangsters. Conversely you have people that are supporting gun control at that time, individuals more so than a movement. But their argument is the reverse of that. Theyre sayi saying, well, its gangs financing these sportsmen or nra. So its interesting no one disagrees gangsters are the epicenter of why these gun laws really come to the foray, but both sides are using it as prop gabd ganda with no factual basis of support. When did the nra move it its origins today . Was it world war ii, post world war ii . I would say it is 1932. 1932 is when the florida backed legislation known as the uniform firearms act, which was intended which was a model state legislation that was supposed to be enacted everywhere as a way to make the laws uniform. And in doing so that would protect Sportsmen Say i was traveling from indiana to ohio if ohio had stricter laws and i was traveling in my hire car i would not be harmed by going into that state necessarily because these laws would be uniformed. It was so popular that the florida convinced the new York Assembly by overwhelming majorities to enact the legislation. Not a super majority to override the veto but majorities. Then governor roosevelt decided to veto the legislation. The florida really ramped up its effects and they started putting advertisements for recruit that were specifically then targeted at finance laws. In the 1930s the attorney general of the United States knew who the nra was in fighting firearm legislation. They became very well aware of what the florida was doing. The general American Public, however, wasnt. So the florida was able to continue to do this for decades. Its not until jfk gets assassinated the American Public gets a wakeup call and introduced to the florida that we have come to know today as one that fights firearm laws. How did a marine become a historian for the u. S. Air force . The marine corp was stationed overseas, was actually what we called a Security Guard and from there i got the International Affairs bug, and then went to George Washington. And George Washington is probably the most Political Organization in there or Political University in the country. Youve got the law bug and, you know, one thing led to another to lean myself back to the air force in history, but im very fortunate to be serving with them and very lucky to have served with a lot of these men and women. And we mentioned your book at the top of our conversation. If you could select one talking point, one take away from your book what is it . Well, i hope people take away is that, you know, the right to arms as we know it today or discuss it today is not the same as it was discussed 200 years ago, a hundred years ago or even 50 years ago. Its evolved, changed up to the times and i hope the other take away is the laws have changed at times to adapt to the environment, to gun violence. To changes in technology and whatnot and that if you have whatever your side is, if youre progun or progun control or in the middle somewhere the big take away is that you have a conversation about it. Theres things for anybody theres perspective they might take away. Patrick charles, hes joining us in new york. We thank you for being with us. Thank you, steve. Tonight on American History tv beginning at 8 00 eastern a look at why june is lgbtq pride month. Six days of protests began on june 28th 1969, after a raid on a village gay club in new york city. 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