rules were. we found the 2008 scholarship application, and on it, it says, quote, employees and/or relatives of cbc members, cbc spouses, cbc foundation, the board of directors are ineligible for the scholarship program. we also went back and found the 2006 guidelines from four years ago and it says the exact same thing, employees and/or relatives of cbc members, cbc spouses, cbc foundation board of directors are ineligible for the scholarship program. that seems not ambiguous. >> i didn't realize they were even in print, ai indicated. i have no reason not to tell the truth. i did not know they were in print. >> you say you didn't know it was in print but clearly members of your staff knew that those were printed in the rules, because when your grandsons and grandnephews and the members of -- the family members of your staff who got this money for several years in a row, every time they sent in an application, they had to promise that they weren't a relative of you or anyone connected with the cbc. so, people on your staff --