because they've been down over the last day or so. >> that's not the business we think of when we think of mastercard and visa. can these guys get closer? they're talking about going after amazon, all sorts of people who don't like them or have somehow, with the case of paypal and visa and mastercard, it was because they stopped accepting payments on behalf of wikileaks. >> right. these hackti vists are a group of people who have remained anonymous. people are sort of waiting to see where that will go. i talked to a bunch of cyber security experts today and yesterday, and they see this as mostly like pranksterism. they say there's not anything terribly exceptional about what they've been able to do so far. if things keep going the way they've been going, the average person who uses the internet or uses a credit card is not necessarily going to be affected. you know, there are worries this could translate into sort of real-world attacks. that's almost unprecedented in the world of online -- >> this is middle ground, not