the phrase that i try to hesitate to say, perjury trap, right, that makes it seem like there's some kind of nefarious purposes going on here. at the end of the day, if you tell the truth, right, you're not going to get charged with lying to the special counsel. because that's a point that you'll often hear from the president's defenders here that well, the special counsel kind of maneuvered the president into a position where he tells a falsehood. >> let's be clear what is a perjury trap. a perjury trap is a defined sort of concept in law. it's a form of entrapment where the prosecutor -- and it's inappropriate -- where the prosecutor is bringing the witness in for the sole purpose of getting him to commit a perjury that he can charge him with that perjury. that's a perjury trap. when there's an ongoing, legitimate investigation and you bring a witness in to testify, and that witness doesn't tell the truth, that's just perjury. plain old, plain old perjury. this isn't a trap. this is a legitimate