at the end of the day, if you tell the truth, right, you're not going to get charged with lying to the special counsel. because that's a point that you'll often hear from the president's defenders here that well, the special counsel kind of maneuvered the president into a position where he tells a falsehood. >> let's be clear what is a perjury trap. a perjury trap is a defined sort of concept in law. it's a form of entrapment where the prosecutor -- and it's inappropriate -- where the prosecutor is bringing the witness in for the sole purpose of getting him to commit a perjury that he can charge him with that perjury. that's a perjury trap. when there's an ongoing, legitimate investigation and you bring a witness in to testify, and that witness doesn't tell the truth, that's just perjury. plain old, plain old perjury. this isn't a trap. this is a legitimate investigation. if the president chooses to not tell the truth, then he's chargeable with person. >> john dean, i imagine the special counsel has -- i don't