acknowledging, what we heard jennifer willoughby say to you, he's an extremely effective manipulator. so he was able to -- and people who are often in these positions are able to carry one face to the world, and then have a really secretive, dark side of their personality that nobody else sees. and keep that sort of bottled in. so that the victims, even though show doesn't call herself a victim, experience this and think intensive -- he's a harvard-trained lawyer, he uses rhetoric and language incredibly effectively against these women, sadly, and probably against his superiors, and against the other people that he's worked for, including senator hatch, john kelley. so you sense that there is a high level of frustration at the white house because they went to him and probably asked him, and he probably minimized this in a way that was believable in enough key moments that of course the responsibility lies on them, but you have to understand that you're dealing with somebody who has deep psychological problems and is going to do anything they can to