atlantic alliance. it's alienating european public opinion to the extent. >> here is the irony. president trump's attacks on the existing order may well lead europeans to work more closely together. it may foster greater european unity. of course, the brexit debacle undermines that. you are certainly seeing a concerted attempt by the european elites that you refer to to work together. equally, there is a scenario where you get more of the hungary, poland, italy situation chipping away at european unity. we know the costs in europe when europeans are divided. that vision of a europe united whole and free is under si it's fair to say as never before. >> is president trump viewed in europe as negatively as some of the elite media portray him? or is it fair to say for the populists in europe, maybe he is a role model? >> i think that you have to be