table. to renegotiate, china has been recalcitrant on this issue. it should be lowering its tariffs. they should be more free trade than they are. they shouldn't steal intellectual property. larry kudlow knows this very, very well. he's one of my best friends. believe me when i tell you, he's arguing the good cause internally. he's just phenomenal. >> ben? >> tariffs are such a complicated issue. it's almost unbelievable. ben smith, the father of economics, said tariffs are a bad thing. but just in recent years, a great, great genius before his death, paul samuelson, said sometimes we do need tariffs. there are countries like china that do require tariffs. if targeted properly against countries like china, i think they can work well. targeting them against countries