this doesn't turn on rick gates and his testimony alone, which the defense would like to attack and say he's the guy that's doing everything, and paul manafort was just along for the ride. there's much more compelling evidence in that. it does not turn on a word. it turns on documents. and when it does that and there's a paper trail, it's very hard to get from out under any type of prosecution, notwithstanding what defense you have. and so, i think this represents trouble. i think he'll be convicted. >> okay. so, he thinks he's going to be convicted, siraj. president trump's, outside of his association, i guess, with manafort -- because these are all alleged crimes that happened before he had any association with the pretsident, but that association between the two, other than the optics, is there any real risk to the president in a conviction for paul manafort here? >> the only real risks, really, is the president's reputation, because paul manafort has a reputation of being sort of a seedy lobbyist in washington who has been known to, you know, put his connections out there with