find the places that our adversaries are using as target practice. >> you went to ukraine, you've been to part of eastern ukraine that is sort of occupied by the russians. what did you learn about what they're doing? >> first, we saw a number of tactics we've never seen before. we're seeing the systematic and customized targeting of disinformation on messaging platforms. it's clear the new front for disinformation is platforms where the barrier of entry is a phone number. it's much more believable if somebody is in your contacts list, you get information from them, you're much more likely to believe it. we're seeing the manipulation of audio and the spoofing the phone calls. we're seeing manufactured revenge porn, manufactured hacking of e-mails that get dumped onto the public domain. we're seeing a growing ecosystem of illicit merchants who are selling these capabilities on the deep and dark web. >> when i hear all this, it sounds very difficult to figure out how to counter it.