is you can't see them being developed, you can't verify whether they've been dismantled. and it's very difficult to prove at least in a public understandable way where they were launched from. now we don't have any doubt that the svr, the most sophisticated of the russian intelligence agencies, was behind the solar winds with attack which was last -- discovered last december against american federal agencies, against corporations. the ransomware groups are harder to pin down, but we know many of them are based inside russia. but that doesn't mean the russian government was running them, and it makes denials like this all the easier. and so how do you get to an agreement to go limit, say, the targets and so forth if putin won't even admit that they're harboring the hackers? >> i mean because as one u.s. official had put it in terms of how biden is talking about this