to leave washington and go out and see what the problem is and he assured me it could be a lot better if they fired some of the people. every time you have someone doing something dirty, whether it's creating a false waiting list or whatever. probably others knew about it and didn't say anything. and sitting rht next to him. >> i think you're exactly right. it was interesting because sh shinseki because ' said that you can't steve these bonuses anymore because of those wait lists and how many patients you actually see. but i want to ask you this because of your lawyer back ground. a lot of talk about criminal wrong doing here. is that going to be easy or tough to prove? >> well, the first thing you do, can you con sevene a grand jury. so the first thing you do is a very agree investigation. 40 people died as a result of this waiting list in phoenix. that could be something called murder or manslaughter, i don't