hearing will determine that. but it is not a case where he has to be proven guilty by or beyond a reasonable doubt. leland: what should be the standard then? is it, someone makes an accusation? you have four people allegedly at the incident. saying they have no memory of it. so when accusation is enough to sink someone's career? >> standard is what the judgment of the senators might be when considering a lifetime appointment. i guess i would ask senators to do is withhold any judgment on the question until the testimony occurs. and if they in their judgment, determine that her argument is more credible than his -- leland: there's already been a lot of democratic senators essay i believe her. i believe her. it doesn't sound like withholding judgment to me. >> i think for the most part those i've decided they believe her, already had determined they were not going to vote for judge kavanaugh.