are looking at -- or corporation to corporation, government to -- >> you're seeing both. you're seeing american corporations now having to fend off a tax, done or sponsored by nation states. but you're also seeing corporate on corporate. you had the sap oracle business, for example. and you have a lot of just profit motivated espionage by insiders, corporate insiders, taking technology and going sometimes in this country, sometimes abroad to asia, and starting competing businesses, using our technology. >> wow. thank you for educating us and congratulations on the book. surely it is an effort to educate many, so i wish you the best of luck with this, mr. brenner. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> joel brenner, the book "america the vulnerable," i like your little icon too with the memory stick. very funny. anyway, we'll see you guys later. jimmy, karen, and susan. next year, amanda knox on a plane and expected to arrive in seattle tonight. when we come back, the very latest from her hometown on the