requirements. those are rules put in place that are paid attention to. and every teacher across this great land of ours is trained in mandatory reporting. if you see a child who you think is a victim of sexual or physical abuse, you must report. >> when i hear you say that i have a catch in my stomach. that sounds precisely like what conservatives talk about. what the real problem is isn't the laws, the rules or from seed yurs. it's our norms as a country have shifted. and in shifting we now have no reasonable place to stand. is that what you're saying or is there something slightly different? >> there is a core of this that does align with a basic conservatism about the potency and force of norms. that's norms i think are powerful. they're powerful inside institutions. in major league baseball you saw the norm go from being drug-free to being implicated in the drugs. once that norm shifts, it becomes much easier for them to justify to themselves the things they're doing. the place where i sort of depart is that i do think that you can create -- you can create institutional reforms that