and the fact that he didn't come across as being mean and -- >> or robotic. >> or robotic, right. well, now, maybe slightly robotic, but not -- but not the certain anger and edge that he's gotten in -- >> like with the rick perry debates. >> exactly. other debates. that has helped the obama administration and the obama campaign define him and i think he pushed back against that with the humor. >> let me look forward and ask you, mark halperin, what do you anticipate coming up now? next week we've got the two vice presidents -- the vice president and his challenger paul ryan there and how about the town hall format for barack obama? the conventional wisdom has been because everybody has bill clinton in their mind that the democrat, president obama, will do better in the town hall relating and empathizing and showing he connects to people. i'm not so sure about this president. >> well, i'm not so sure, although both of them will be --