if you sit down and talk to him. perception is perceiving how things are. >> a great guy who puts 200,000 people in prison camps? >> well, you know, guess what? we do the same thing here, which have prison camps here in the united states? >> we don't have prison camp. this is all politics, right? >> but it sounds like you're apologizing for him? >> no, i'm not apologizing for him. i think he is a good guy to me. he's my friend. >> and chris, he is the only american who has met with this guy. i think you got to bring him in and find out what you can learn. >> look, i think stephen a. makes a really good point. it's easy and i've done it on my blog to say this is an incredible story and i can't believe this happened. but what is clear here is that dennis rodman is drastically out of his depth when it comes to foreign policy and what north korea has or hasn't done. the justification of that, well, this is politics. there is a big, big difference between north korea is doing to its citizenry and politics.