and that game was, you know, when we go into a pitch meeting with a reality star, we say, go crazy. do some nutty stuff. like, you know, it doesn't really matter what you say, whereas, i think, in the news business, people are looking at him based on content. it really isn't about content. it's about show, it's about performance, it's about what jeb bush said, which is sort of endless chaos. >> and yet briefly, final point is that reality shows themselves are not as popular as they once were. >> right, it's almost like they sort of birthed their demon spawn and now kind of roll up and die. so, you know, reality is going to be around for a while, was it's not the cultural force it was, which is sort of fascinating. >> is that because it's been diluted? >> i think it's lost a little bit of the sense of fun, when we were doing it eight to ten years ago, the buyers to a certain degree have forgotten why reality is fun, michael