things we've gotten to in the investigation is the idea of cutouts. so if anyone was doing anything, sort of hand in glove, it was being done through sort of plausibly deniable, quasi third parties. is that your understanding of where we are in the investigation now? >> i think that's exactly right. whether it was the folks who met with john doctor or gusi fer who spoke to roger stone allegedly or people speaking to peter smith offering a dangle, opposition research, information that's detrimental to hillary clinton what you're seeing is exactly that, the sort of targeting using cutouts. using people that if they are traced, if they are identified, are very difficult to trace exactly back to the kremlin. even though a layperson can look at this and say, it's likely this was a directed action. but that's the point. whether this is illegal or not, what you are seeing here on the national security side is much more, not dotted lines, but solid lines, tracing back to the kremlin.