things with and for donald trump is really sort of where this is going. and for him to now turn that around and say, well, he's lying about me, look, the government is going to be skeptical of michael cohen. if he cooperating with him, the government is not going to take it face value. that's not how it works. it is a process. and it is someone, especially like michael cohen who they know has been an underhanded lawyer who records clients and does things like that, that's exactly why he has valuable information. but they're never going to rely on him alone. if there is things they can corroborate, cases are built by the government all the time on what would otherwise be untrust worry people, frankly. that's the world criminals deal in. >> tim o'brian tonight, rudy giulia giuliani, his entire defense was you can't believe someone who is a liar and whenever they go to court, no one believes them.